What do you think of the .38 special?

[AZMark]

Besides plinking and target shooting, just how useful is the .38 special caliber? I hope this hasn't been done to death already.

[dubber123]

I own 8, and carry one daily, a S&W Mod. 60. It is not the most powerful caliber, but inexpensive to practice with, and came in some of the nicest revolvers ever built. I guess I like it!

[AZMark]

So, then, you don't belong to the "gotta have a magnum" school of thought? It's killing me trying to decide on my next handgun. A .38 is significantly cheaper from what I can see than other calibers.

[dubber123]

Actually, when I'm out wandering the woods, I usually have a 4-3/4" .475 Linebaugh with me! That said, I have a soft spot for the .38 spl., and can certainly shoot them better than the big boomers for the most part. A used Mod. 10 Smith is about your best bet for a quality gun reasonable. They used to be alot cheaper than now, but you are still better off than buying a "cheaper" new gun. No specific brands mentioned.....

[Ben]

It isn't a modern magnum, but.........it is a killer none the less.
I have great respect for the 38 special.

Ben

[9.3X62AL]

I would call the 38 Special the 2nd most useful centerfire handgun caliber I load for, and that is a close second to its younger/stronger cousin--the 357 Magnum. The Model 10 you spoke of in this thread and one other is a very fine platform for the caliber, and was largely designed around the 38 Special. The 38 Special can do 95% of my shooting a handgun gets used for and is easily as powerful as any 9mm loading available for self-defense. There is little discussion of the 38 Special as a mainline defensive caliber in these days of mall ninjas--1911A1s--and 17-shot magazines. I would be very willing to carry a M-10 with the old FBI load of +P 158 grain lead SWC hollowpoints in harm's way.

2 things always struck me as being odd about discussions on 38 Special capabilities.......

1) How is the 38 Special adequate for SD in a 2" J-frame, but inadequate for same in a 4" K-frame?

2) How is it that 38 Specials in these same 2" five-shot revolvers are deemed adequate for self-defense--make that saving one's own or another's life........but a 6" 357 Magnum is insufficient for hunting deer?

There are some gunshop truisms and Internet legends that just don't stand up once viewed in the light of day.

[dk17hmr]

I dont have one, I use my dads 4" S&W 38 for rabbit hunting in our pines, head shots dont need to be taken with the 160gr round nose bullets we use but that is where they ussally get hit with the little Smith.

Cant go wrong with a 38 revolver.

[AZMark]

I like the idea of a caliber that has the kind of history that the .38 does plus the fact that I should be able to load it relatively cheaply. Almost all of my shooting with whatever I get will be plinking or target shooting. I've ended up with everything I need to cast, except a mold. That may bring ammo costs down close to .22LR (I've also ended up with a bunch of lead ingots and wheel weights which cost me nothing).

[frank505]

I was about 22 years old and working on a ranch with a good friend. We had quite a bit of time in the winter and got pretty interested in sixguns or maybe I should say, more so. I ended up with a S&W Model 67 and two molds, the 358439 and a four cavity 358429. Shot 5 grains of Unique with either bullet. We would once a week shoot some cottontails for something different to eat and of course it was fun. The solid bullet would just punch a hole in and out of a cottontails head and maybe bulge an eyeball. The hollow point would simply remove the head. I shot porcupines every chance I got and the hollow point worked better than the solid, but I really needed a bigger gun, which I had in a 44 Special. The 38 was easier to carry and quieter to shoot without ear plugs. I kind of miss the little gun and should get to town and buy a Model 15 I've got my eye on.
I think you'd be well armed with a 38 and a good load like 12 grains of 2400 and the 358429. Not something you want to shoot every day but as a carry load it would be hard to beat.

[GLL]

I own way too many .38 Specials. It is my very favorite followed closely by the .44 Special.

I can shoot some pretty hot loads in these old S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman N-frame revolvers. Many loads approach that of modern factory SWC 158 grain .357Magnums but most are pretty tame full wadcutters for targets and plinking.

The .38 Special is a very versatile choice ! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/704195DACC56170/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/6DBC356A7B421C9/orig.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

Mark--

Late add-on here.......don't throw in the towel on finding an affordable good-quality double-action 357 Magnum, or a good adjustable-sighted 38 Special. There are a LOT of them "out there", and the differences in price are not that significant. It almost sounds like you're "settling" for a Model 10, and you won't be happy with ANYTHING you "settle for".

The other side of that matter.......there isn't one thing wrong with a good set of fixed sights on a service or hunting revolver, once you know where it's "looking". The several Model 10/13/64/65 revos I've owned or played with ALL put 158 grain bullets at standard velocities (800-850 FPS in 38 Special, 1200-1250 FPS in 357 Magnum) RIGHT where the sights were looking. One of the early Model 581 x 4" L-frames belonging to a friend of mine would put my agency's 357 duty load (WW 158 JHP) EXACTLY on top of the front sight at 25 yards, and blow the X-ring out of B-27 silhouettes at 50 yards all day long.

38 Special and 357 Magnum are ACCURATE CALIBERS. They are wildly popular for very good reasons, although neither caliber gets much love in the gunrags these days.

Get what you REALLY want--if that means saving money for a while, do so. You won't regret the wait, but you'll damn sure regret spending significant money on something not truly to your liking.

Jerry--those are beautiful machines, sir.

[NOUGLYGUN]

:-DI picked a S&W M&P 6" with pencil barrel for my sons first "real pistol". He can shoot it and shoot it and not get tired. What do you know he is getting very good with it. Snake shot and heavy SWC in the feild. It's no magnum but on the trail its tops.

[trickyasafox]

I don't have much functional experience with the cartridge; but I can say, just as a casual plinker, I love the 38 spl. It's a friendly load that can be shot in large quantities, as well as reloaded and cast economically (158gr LSWC go a lot further in the pot than 230gr RN for the 45!).

It's gentle recoil makes introducing new shooters to centerfire weapons pleasurable and the fact that the vast majority of handguns in that caliber are revolvers make retrieving brass a 'no brainer'.

as a final point- just because its soft shooting (in target loads) i wouldn't under estimate it. a 158-160gr slug traveling along between 850 and 900 fps is nothing to shake a stick at.

[AZMark]

Honestly, I like the model 10. I've owned 2 .357s, a GP100 which had to be sold, and a 3" Taurus 66. The GP was a bit heavy for carrying but it shot great. The 66 is not as solid as I like but that may be because it's an older Taurus. The ejector rod also shoots loose. The 357 is a great caliber, but I want to carry a gun when I go for a walk, and I don't want to wear ear plugs just in case I have to shoot. I've got significant hearing loss already, and the .357 is LOUD no matter what anyone says. Reason #2 for the model 10...it's a Smith and Wesson, and I'd like to have one. I've handled one and I liked the trigger. Based on reason #2, the mod 10 is the only normal-sized Smith I can afford if I have to buy new. My wife and I made a deal that I wouldn't spend more than $500. If I want good quality, the choices are kind of slim.

[0802]

Best advice anyone every gave me on buying guns -- buy what you want. If you settle for something less than what you want, you'll still want it once the purchase is made.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I'm a big fan of wadcutters in .38s and .357s pushed to 850 - 900 in .38s and 1150 + in .357s. The wadcutters I use are 358091 (148 gr) and 358089 (141 gr). They each have 3 lube grooves and go fast w/o leading. I have in the past hollow pointed them and cast them in pure lead. They do expand and the expansion starts at full caliber not at meplat diameter.

I hope you find a Mod 10 and load for it. Great idea. .38s do carry better than the .357s, are more friendly to unplugged ears, cheap to feed, shoot good, and have since 1902, and they are still around. Go figure.

[Char-Gar]

The 38 Special is my all time favorite sixgun cartridge and it will do at least 95% of the things we want revolvers to do.

[Kraschenbirn]

+2 "true believers" in the .38 Spl. Between me and my wife, we go through a couple of thousand rounds of .38s a year...mostly 148 gr WCs for plinking and 158 gr SWCs (Lyman 358156) for serious practice.

Bill

[Glen]

I agree with what 9.3x62 and Chargar have to say on this matter. The .38 Special is indeed very special. Two of my most trusted personal protection guns are .38 Specials, and my favorite small game revolvers are .38 Specials. Did I mention that I keep my .38 brass in 5-gallon buckets? Yeah, I LIKE the .38 Special....

[Buckshot]

...............Jerry, those pistols are sure great looking. Whatta ya want for one of'em? Three is just too many for one person to own :-)

I too like the 38 Special. It's darn versatile, components abound, brass is cheap and empties at the range are a glut (or were, as 9mm's are a glut now). It just does what it's supposed to do. Of course I like the 38 S&W too, if THAT means anything, HA!

When I recently bought my M67 S&W I could have bought a blued M19 for the same money but went with the 38 Special.

................Buckshot

[shotstring]

I simply have a love affair going with the old S & W and Colt 38 revolvers. Unfortunately, I sold all of them over the years. They were like fine pieces of art that put cloverleaf holes in everything. I only have a couple of mdl 27s left so have to make due, but I shore luv'd those mdl 14s with the 6 inch bbl and an occasional Colt Officers model or two. Sigh.

[Bret4207]

There are, IMHO, 3 revolvers every man needs. 1- a 22, 2-a 38/357 and 3- a 44 or 45. That covers anything you'll ever need to do with a revolver. As far as the 38 goes there is nothing finer than a nice Smith 4"-6" adjustable sighted revolver for general use. For SD a 2"-3" J frame is fine as are the the K-frames with shorter barrels. A Model 19 is about perfect as far as I'm concerned. There is little real world difference between a well loaded 38 and the 9MM and some 357 loads. Putting the boolit where it belongs is the key.

I have pretty much the same opinion as Al. Why iis the 357 barely adequate for deer, but just fine for a drugged out psychopath?

[725]

Bret4207,
I can only suspect it has to do with the range at which each would be engaged. Pretty much it is an up-close and personal encouter with a whaco that requires return fire. (23 years as a ghetto cop) Some of these guys are extrodinary shots / hunters and can ding a pie plate at 100 yards with regularity. That kind of distance bleeds energy from a killing shot placement and would lessen it's lethality. Up close with a .357, all I can think of is that I prefer BBQ sauce with my tenderloins.
725

[Four Fingers of Death]

The Model 10 38Special was my duty weapon when I wore one (Corrections, not always armed). I never fired a shot in anger, but practised a lot with it. It was easy to shoot (aussie law enforcement used a special order 3"heavy Bbl. Very nice little revolver. It is a good killer using the 158Gn+P LHP and while not the best killer in Evan Marshall's figures gathered from Police records of shootings, but was right up there, second I think, but I wouldn't swear to it. The 125Gn JHP 357 Mag was best from memory.

One thing about the 38 is it won't deafen you and temporarily blind you with first shot and won't frighten the bejeezus out of you, but will allow you to deliver lead with surgical precision. Hits first, power second.

[AZMark]

Well, I think I will have to put a saved search on gunbroker for S&W .38 special and follow the market. If anyone has a suggestion for a good place to look for used revolvers in Tucson (nearest big town to me), I'd love to hear it.

[GLL]

AZMark:

Besides the Model 10 you might also take a look at the S&W Model 14

Mine is a single-action-only Target version and it is exceptionally accurate

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/5C705945696C70C/standard.jpg

[dubber123]

Mod. 14 is a great gun, usually goes a bit higher, the Mod. 15 is an adjustable sight model, usually found in 4", another great choice. The Mod. 67, same gun in stainless. Lots of choices, same basic theme. I got a mod. 28 S&W .357 in very good shape a while back for 225$. Keep looking, no need to buy beat up junk, there are lots of good ones out there.

[Scrounger]

Well, I think I will have to put a saved search on gunbroker for S&W .38 special and follow the market. If anyone has a suggestion for a good place to look for used revolvers in Tucson (nearest big town to me), I'd love to hear it.

Hit the pawnshops on a regular basis. They get their guns cheaper than dealers usually do, and they will negotiate price with you.

[Bret4207]

Bret4207,
I can only suspect it has to do with the range at which each would be engaged. Pretty much it is an up-close and personal encouter with a whaco that requires return fire. (23 years as a ghetto cop) Some of these guys are extrodinary shots / hunters and can ding a pie plate at 100 yards with regularity. That kind of distance bleeds energy from a killing shot placement and would lessen it's lethality. Up close with a .357, all I can think of is that I prefer BBQ sauce with my tenderloins.
725

Good points, but most of the "experts" claim 35-50 yards is tops for range. When we still had 357's (681's, 21 years State Trooper), we always qualified at 50 yards and you had no problem keeping them in the K5.

IMHO there's a distinction made that makes no sense to me. My opinion and worth what you paid for it.:coffee:

[Mk42gunner]

Good points, but most of the "experts" claim 35-50 yards is tops for range. When we still had 357's (681's, 21 years State Trooper), we always qualified at 50 yards and you had no problem keeping them in the K5.

IMHO there's a distinction made that makes no sense to me. My opinion and worth what you paid for it.:coffee:

I think it is the mine is bigger than yours mentality that has people believeing that they [I]need[I] a 300 GeeWhilikers Magnum for 150 pound deer at 75 yards.

The one word answer is: Marketing.

/r

Robert

[9.3X62AL]

I don't mean to advocate the taking of deer with a 38 Special, although a good shooter could do it humanely I'm sure. My point is that (to date) no whitetail, muley, or blacktail has taken up arms at any distance. Valid points about extended range being the difference between deer hunting and exchanging finality, but the stilted juxtaposition of the calibers and the venues remains a poser for me.

[AZMark]

I had no idea there were so many different models made in .38 spl. I guess I need to find a reference to learn more about what S&W has made over the years...any hints?

[Glen]

Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson by Jim Supica and Richard Nahas.

[Bob Jones]

I've been having a lot of fun with a 4" Smith Model 66, stainless with adjustable sights. Loaded with 110 grain SWC it costs about the same as .22 these days to shoot and it's even more fun. Very accurate and sweet revolver to shoot.

[Dale53]

Tonight at my "home club" there were three Model 10 S&W's ($225.00 each) and they were 85%-90% or so. Good sound guns. However, there was a 95-98% Combat Masterpiece with Target Trigger (wide smooth) and a Target Hammer for $275.00. I talked a friend of mine into buying it (that kept ME from buying ANOTHER gun I really don't need - I already have a .38 Special K-38 and a 4" 686 C plus a plethora of snubbies).

At any rate, I thought that was a decent price for a VERY nice model of S&W.

Dale53

[dubber123]

Tonight at my "home club" there were three Model 10 S&W's ($225.00 each) and they were 85%-90% or so. Good sound guns. However, there was a 95-98% Combat Masterpiece with Target Trigger (wide smooth) and a Target Hammer for $275.00. I talked a friend of mine into buying it (that kept ME from buying ANOTHER gun I really don't need - I already have a .38 Special K-38 and a 4" 686 C plus a plethora of snubbies).

At any rate, I thought that was a decent price for a VERY nice model of S&W.

Dale53



I would consider that a great price these days on the Combat Masterpiece, and that is a great handling gun. Thats about what I paid for mine, but that was at least 10 years ago, and my, have things changed.

[Shepherd2]

GLL - I have a S&W Model 14 in the single action target version also. Never had a more accurate handgun. I think I bought it in the mid 60s. Definitely a keeper.

[9.3X62AL]

AZ Mark--

There have been a good number of S&W models made in 38 Special, and if you add on the Colt contributions to that number.......it gets pretty extensive. Just the number of responses to your original post should give some idea of the caliber's wide appeal.

I can't speak with knowledge about Tucson--but Buckshot and I visited the Prescott area last spring, and there was no lack of good, well-stocked gunshops with wide selections of both used and new S&W revolvers available. There are a few S&W revolvers in 38 Special being made currently, but the MSRP is probably twice the price you'll pay for a used model in fine condition.

The older Colts are wonderful machines, but they have quirks that pose issues for new shooters in selecting an example--some will show timing wear from extensive double-action firing, a thing that seldom affects S&W or Ruger double-actions. This requirement for on-staff or contract gunsmiths/armorers to keep Colts running well spelled the downfall of Colt's dominance of the police revolver market by the late 1960's, and enabled the ascendancy of S&W that remained constant until the wholesale shift by American LEO's to the autopistol in the late 1980's.

Check for PM, sir.

[Bret4207]

I think it is the mine is bigger than yours mentality that has people believeing that they [I]need[I] a 300 GeeWhilikers Magnum for 150 pound deer at 75 yards.

The one word answer is: Marketing.

/r

Robert

Truer words were never spoken!:drinks:

[homefront]

Here's my daily carry:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/homefront5/100_1094.jpg

'78 Colt Detective Special. J-frame sized, but 6 shots.
158 gr. SWC lead bullets at under 1,000 fps go through hem fir 2x stock like it's styrofoam. At typical gunfighting range (supposedly less than 7') I have no doubt that center of mass shots will create a significant attitude adjustment.
Bill Jordan said that the only caliber that has killed more men than the .38 spl. is the .22 :shock:

[Slowpoke]

Well, I think I will have to put a saved search on gunbroker for S&W .38 special and follow the market. If anyone has a suggestion for a good place to look for used revolvers in Tucson (nearest big town to me), I'd love to hear it.

Last time I was in Tucson, there was Murphy's, and right next door to each other on Pima was Jensens and West of the Pecos, can't remember the name but a big pawn shop at Craycroft and 29th street right outside the main gate of DM AFB (Cash box?)

Then on Grant Road about midtown there was another gun shop can't recall its name either but I got my .358 Win there, then on North Oracle there was another one CRS is terrible its only been seven years but I remember this one because right after it opened a couple kids went in there with some shotgun shell's in there pocket took a shotgun off the rack and loaded it up and tried to rob the place but the owner ended up spoiling there day and killing one of them.

Then out west off from Velencia RD there was John's gun shop .

good hunting

[Scrounger]

Is Bob Jensen still around? I knew him back in the early 80s.

[GLL]

Srounger:

I think Jenson's may have recently changed names (sold out?).

Jerry

[Slowpoke]

Is Bob Jensen still around? I knew him back in the early 80s.

The last time I seen Mr Jensen was when he loaded the ammo for the palma match I think it was 92, I got a couple hundred 308 match cases from him that have a Palma 92 ? headstamp.

Not sure what happened( heard a few rumors) but some time later his daughter took over the shop and there may have been a name change as well.

I bought my first new rifle at Jensens when I was 14, it was a 336 in 30-30, got out the door and was waiting for my ride and looked at the box and it said 35 rem, opened the box up and sure enough it was a 35 rem, went back inside and told them they made a mistake, I remember some fellow getting his butt chewed out and somebody else bringing me my 30-30, I think at that time the 35 rem was $125 and the 30-30 was $89

good shooting

[Crash_Corrigan]

I could carry my Taurus 1911 or my Browning Hi Power 9 mm but I choose to carry a lowley .38 special.

I have been shooting them since 1964 when I bought my model 10-5 4" heavy bbl S & W for $43.50 from the NYCPD equipment bureau. I carried that revolver for 20 years and I had to use it 5 time against hostiles.

It always worked. It always put the round where I wanted it and when I needed to get it there.

The tiny Model 85 has a 2" bbl and weighs less than 20 oz. Loaded with Cor Bon's Powerball ammo I still carry it every day everywhere. It can be easily concealed and I know it will do the job when needed.

The big Taurus 1911 and the Browning are big and tough to conceal and they are both heavy. So is the 586 and the Rugers.

I also have a S & W 586 6" bbl 357 Mag but I shoot mostly .38's with it.

Ditto with the Ruger Black Hawk 357. I also love the Ruger Black Hawk new model .45 LC/.45 ACP that I enjoy shooting. But is a big single action revolver. So is the Old Model 357 Ruger. Too big to carry and too slow to shoot or reload.

The .38 is a good compromise. It is a pleasant round to shoot with many redeeming qualities. I have thousands of empty cases and they are easy and cheap to reload. Low in recoil and not as loud as some other rounds. It is easy to shoot and accurate within reasonable ranges. It is not a rifle and will drop down really fast after 40 yds or so.

Everybody talks about stopping power and other variables but my thought is what is the good of a 454 Casull in your house when you are in a 711 with nothing but your wits and a big smile when the SHTF?

What are you willing to carry all the time? 24/7? Everywhere and everyday. The tiny Taurus does the job and nobody knows I have it until I need it.

I ground off the hammer spur and I can hit a 12" gong 5 out of 5 shots at 40 yds every day if I focus. Up close I can hit a silly wet target at 10 feet with either hand from the hip in the thoratic cavity with every shot in less than 2 seconds.

I regularly practice shooting with the revolver held against my right hip at a target 3 feet away as fast as I can pull the trigger. Sometime I really get my shirt messed up but I know that I can get it done and not have somebody grab my gun in a close and personal encounter.

The the .38 is an underated and non glamorous calibre but I believe that it will be around for another 100 years and it will still get the job done.

[9.3X62AL]

+1 to all that Crash said. In spades.

Home Front, the Det Spec is (my opinion) the BEST 2" 38 Special ever cobbled up. Just right, a mid-point between the J- and K-frame S&W's. D-frame Colts are wonderful platforms, and the late-series DS is +P capable full-time.

[Bret4207]

Ditto to Crash and Al. The 38 is the 30-30 of the revolver world. It'll do most anything most folks need, for cheap and it's handy. IMO many of the SIG/Glock/Beretta/1911 boys would be well served by spending some time with a plain jane 38 revolver and some gongs or rocks at 50-200 yards. The plastic gun/mall ninja types can do great at 7 yards on a silhouette, but it takes some work to hit that soda can at 50 yards or that football sized rock at 100. Perfect territory for a 38 and a good revolver.

[336A]

I bought a .38 SPL in the form of a S&W M10-14 just last year. I can't say enough good things about this combination. Since I purchased the gun I worked up a general purpose load with a 158gr SWC over 4.6gr of Unique. It is a wonderfully accurate combination with just the right amount of punch. When woods bumming or hunting my ammo consists of a 158gr SWC over 5.3gr of Unique, or a #358429 over 5gr of the same powder. Both loads are of sufficeint enough power that I never feel undergunned. Here shortly I'm going to experiment with a 190gr WFNPB over some Unique. I'm sure as with the rest of the loads I will be able to coax awesome accuracy from that load. Here is a great read on the .38 SPL.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/530103904/m/3961008751?r=3961008751#3961008751

[Char-Gar]

38 Special..How do I love thee?... Let me count the ways

S & W Model 15 (Combat Masterpiece)
S & W Model 14 (K-38)
S & W 5" Military and Police (1931 vintage)
S & W 4" Model 10
S & W 4" Model 64
S & W 4" Heavy Duty 38/44
S & W 2" Model 36 (Chief's Special)
S & W 3" Model 36 (Chief's Special)
Colt 6" Officers Model (1948)
Colt 5" Official Police (1954)
Colt 4" Trooper (1956)
Colt 3" Detective Special (1961)

That makes an even dozen way I love the 38 Special. The 3" Dick Special is one of my main carry guns.

You might say I have a "thing" for the 38 Special. Oh yes, I would had to make a longer list if I included sixguns chambered for the .357 Mag. round.

The newer set of shooters think handguns have to be super-dooper large caliber wrist breaking magnums to be worth having and shooting. They are a bunch of idots, but that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

I have about 10K good 38 Special cases and another 3K 38 Special match/wad cutter cases, and a number of bullet molds "laid by" for my golden years. I have a number of other handguns, but the lowly 38 Special is still the pick of the litter.

PS... For pure cast bullet accuracy, the best bullets are one of the 150-160 grain round nose jobbies. I have both the lyman and Hensley and Gibbs version. The world is full of fine SWC molds for the 38 Special but the old SAECO/Cramer No12 remains my favorite. A good HB wadcutter over a mild charge of BE or 231 makes a fine plinking and short range small game load.

[AZMark]

Y'all are getting me kind of fired up about the .38 special. I love the long history of this round and its apparent versatility.

[Curly James]

Just putting mu .02 worth in regarding this cartridge. I own several of the .357/.38 caliber revolvers and one levergun. IMHO this is one of the more versatile calibers available in a handgun. I will be shooting the S&W model 10 in the photo in an IDPA match tomorrow using the Lee RNFP with 4.5 grains of WW 231 in a .38 case. I have a Dillon SDB that stays set up for this load.


Oh, and God help us all Ken, my wife got me a new camera for Christmas and I've learned to post photos..........CJ

[mooman76]

It has stood the test of time. Not the greatest cartridge but far from the worst. I own a couple and no I think I made a mistake. I seen a Police positive S&W at the gun show for $110 and passed it up. They called it a gunsmith special. I'm not sure what all was wrong with it but I could see the grips were missing and rod that opens the cyl. was missing the end of it. If that's all that was wrong it looked like an ok deal. But then again I don't need another gun I already have. So many to buy.... so little time!

[Tristan]

Just putting mu .02 worth in regarding this cartridge. I own several of the .357/.38 caliber revolvers and one levergun. IMHO this is one of the more versatile calibers available in a handgun. I will be shooting the S&W model 10 in the photo in an IDPA match tomorrow using the Lee RNFP with 4.5 grains of WW 231 in a .38 case. I have a Dillon SDB that stays set up for this load.


Oh, and God help us all Ken, my wife got me a new camera for Christmas and I've learned to post photos..........CJ

I personally believe that the 4" heavy barreled Model 10 is one of the finest, best-pointing revolvers ever made; and examples are found everywhere in fine mechanical condition, even if some of their outsides show honest wear.

A good 38sp. revolver is something that every handgunner should have in his stable... IMHO.

- Tristan

[Dale53]

I am also a fan of the .38 Special (it is constantly "warring" with the .32's for preference in my stable).

I thought that I had dodged the issue, but ended up with a rather nice S&W Combat Masterpiece (Model 15). It was at the local club for a decent price, I talked a buddy into buying it and before it was over, a couple of days later, it was mine. Please don't ask me how, it just did.

It may be for sale (or not). I really don't need another .38 Special (yeah, we ALL know about "need", don't we[smilie=1:). At any rate, I may be slipping out the door with it later today. It is apparently an EX-Leo piece (has "Orange County, California "abbreviated"). Hasn't seen much use. It is slightly blue worn at the muzzle and at the leading edges of the cylinder (obviously carried, some) and a couple of minor scratches. It is tight with NO end shake. It also has one of the best actions I have seen in many a moon. I suspect a really talented armourer worked his magic. Really, really, nice!

I just took delivery of a new 642-2 (yep, in .38 Special, AGAIN:mrgreen:) as my new pocket carry gun. It will replace an Airweight Chief's Special for that purpose (I like the hammerless design for the pocket, don't cha' know).

So, I need to get to the range with both of the new guns to try them out. IT is 17 degrees here, so it won't be outside. I'll have to hit the indoor range (it is SO nice to have access to an indoor range on these kinds of days).

At any rate, I didn't mean to steal this thread, but .38 Specials DID come up[smilie=1:...

Dale53

[EMC45]

"Plastic gun/Mall Ninja types" That is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time!!!!:-D I have seen them. They will argue all day how the wheel gun is dead and how good a Glock is all the while toting a HiPoint[smilie=1:

[Bret4207]

"Plastic gun/Mall Ninja types" That is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time!!!!:-D I have seen them. They will argue all day how the wheel gun is dead and how good a Glock is all the while toting a HiPoint[smilie=1:

Well I have to give Al 9.3x62 credit for the Mall Ninja line. He also introduced me to "cammie jammie", another laugher. Descriptors like those get the idea across, post haste!. I seem to run into a lot of the guys we would have called "Drugstore Cowboys" in my youth. Now they've morphed into "Mall Ninjas" and "Tactical Extreme Warriors". I on the other hand, have morphed from callow youth to crusty old fart!:mrgreen:

[StrawHat]

I on the other hand, have morphed from callow youth to crusty old fart!:mrgreen:


Long live us crusty old farts!!!!!!!!

We might be the only ones who respect the 38 Special.

Someone mentioned the 4"HB Model 10 as a natural pointer, I thought the samae thing until I got my hands on a 5" M&P. (Same gun as the M10 but earlier and with the pencil barrel).

I now have about half a dozen 38's. They haven't bumped the 45 out of first place in my heart but they are fast approaching that point.

I haven't read all the posts so this may have been stated already but the 36 caliber meplat of the WC bullet swats small game and vermin solidly.

Great cartridge.

[GSM]

Bret & StrawHat:

What's the minimum age requirement for the "old fart" portion? I think I've got a handle on the crusty part of the moniker. I don't want to have to wait too long.

[Knarley]

But mostly shoot .38 spl in them. Up here in the north- land (MN) a .357 mag is leagal for deer where the .38 isn't. That being said, it just makes more sense to own one that will shoot both, more bang for the buck (pun intended) :mrgreen:
regards,
Knarley

[Stevejet]

Whenever the question of ".38 Special Effectivity" is posed, I dig out my old Speer No. 8 Reloading Manual and review page 367 which is dedicated to listing "Defense Loads In 2" Barrels". The narative notes that the listed loads are "middle loads for K frame guns". They are considered heavy, safe loads for small frame Colt, S&W and Charter Arms revolvers, but a steady diet will result in loosening of the guns action. Also, considerable muzzle flash.

The bullets loaded in this section are 158 Gr.SWC lead and jacketed bullets of 125, 140 and 158 Gr. In the four weight/type catagories, the high FPS velocities are all over 1,000 and the mid velocities are 919 to 992 FPS, bad medicine to say the least.

I prefer 158 Gr. lead round nose with large flat point from Hardcast Bullet Co., Part number HC38, at 900 FPS. As long as my bullets can achieve 50+ fps higher velocity than factory loads of 855 FPS, I do not feel "under armed" with a .38 Special. Great cartridge that has disabled or put "paid" to errant cretins during the course of "social work".

[Dale53]

Stevejet;
The old Speer #8 loading manual has several loads that are WAY over pressure for the .38 Special and .357 Magnum. If you compare this with the later Speer #9 you will find that those loads are no longer there.

My recommendation is to deep six the #8 manual.

Dale53

[Stevejet]

I always thought Speer was rather conservative in their load tests. I appreciate your notification. I'll bounce the loadings against my Lyman and Hornady manuals. Thanks for the heads up!

[Dale53]

Other than the Speer #8 maual, Speer HAS been reliable. They instituted pressure testing for the later manuals.

Hogdon was the first of the "Independents" to institute pressure testing for all of their loads. Of course, Dupont, I believe, always did pressure testing for all of their loads.

The Golden Rule of reloading is to NEVER trust one source. Anyone can make a mistake and misprints can happen. When you use two or more sources before you use a load, it adds a great deal of "Insurance" to the process.

There is no free lunch. If the loads seem too good to be true, they probably are.

In the particular case of the Speer #8 manual, I jumped all over this wonderful data. I was shooting a Model 19 S&W (known to be a bit light for continuous use of heavy .357 loads). I loaded up, following "proper" procedures of "working up" and got wonderful results using Dupont 4756. I had no chronograph in those days, but DID notice that the bullets got to 50 yards noticeably faster than previous .357 full power loads. They shot extremely well out of my 6" Model 19. I told all of my buddies about this wonderful powder. I stopped one full grain before reaching Speer's "maximum". One of my very good friends, a very knowledgeable reloader and licensed engineer, experienced difficult extraction in his Model 28 S&W (a revolver long known for its great strength) several grains of 4756 BELOW my load. I had a local commercial reloader, who had access to the reloading industry, submit my loads to pressure testing. My "sweet" load (one grain below Speer's maximum) tested out at 67,000 lbs psi!!! Needless to say, I immediately quit using ANY of the loads listed.

My supposedly "weak" Model 19 showed no ill effects at all (at least, that I could tell). It is interesting to note that I had experienced nothing but easy extraction and absolutely NO signs of pressure. It was a great learning experience for me and my contacts. Working up loads in a strong bolt action rifle can be done safely using caution and watching for pressure signs. Most revolver cartridges will often show NO signs of pressure even when you have exceeded maximum allowable pressure for that particular cartridge and revolver.

The only safe way to do it, is to use pressure tested data from several sources. The only thing that kept me from catastrophe is that Smith sure made a strong revolver. I was lucky. Reloading is a very safe activity, but you must NEVER let your guard down and NEVER assume anything - "logic" does not always apply.

The sad part about all of this is that data from the Speer #8 manual is resurrected from time to time and suggested as a wonderful source. So, people are still at risk. Speer is a very good and responsible company and I mean nothing disrespectful towards them. You cannot "recall" data like that without drawing all sorts of legal problems so we are kind of stuck with "word of mouth" to get the word out. I thought that all of this would be behind us (the #8 manual is an "ancient" text but still, there it is...)

Dale53

[dubber123]

Thanks for this info, Dale, I had to go look at my most ancient Speer manual, it is #9. I reference this oldie quite a bit, and I'm glad to see it isn't the one with the sketchy loads in it.

[Stevejet]

Dale53's advice to discard the Speer No. 8 reloading manual, after cursory comparison to the Speer No. 10, Lyman 45th Edition, Hornady 3rd Edition and Lee Second Edition manuals, has been a genuine revelation of safety regarding reloading. Tho' I couldn't compare the Speer No. 8 Manual .38 Special data for 2" barrel revolvers to the other manuals because they don't contain such data for "snubbies", I did look at other loadings in 6" barrel revolvers and found the Speer No. 8 Manual listed loads in most all weight/types of bullets that were as high as 2 1/2 grains ABOVE the maximum weights listed in all the newer manuals, in particular the Speer No. 10 edition. This is a serious and extremely cautionary bit of education for which I am very grateful to Dale53 for noticing and providing!
In fact, I'm going from here over to my other site (FFF) and search their cached posts and see if this has been mentioned, as it should be!

The above being gratefully acknowled, I do take a bit of exception to the word "ancient" being used. I purchased the Speer No. 8 and the Lyman 45th Edition manuals, both fly leaf dated as 1970 publications, in 1972 when I was 25 years old and drove home with them in my 1966 GTO, which I owned for 19 years. You should know.........I use to be kool! [smilie=1:

Again, my sincere appreciation to Dale53 for his diligence and action in providing a necessary caution to myself and any others who were not aware of this Speer No. 8 Manual issue. A ton of thanks!

[dubber123]

[Quote/Stevejet]
The above being gratefully acknowled, I do take a bit of exception to the word "ancient" being used. I purchased the Speer No. 8 and the Lyman 45th Edition manuals, both fly leaf dated as 1970 publications, in 1972 when I was 25 years old and drove home with them in my 1966 GTO, which I owned for 19 years. You should know.........I use to be kool! [smilie=1:

Sorry about the "ancient" moniker, it's not like it was chiseled on a stone tablet or something. Actually it's pretty amazing how good they did back in the early days of the moveable type hand press.[smilie=1: Just kidding, you'll always be Kool to us!

[Stevejet]

Moveable hand type????? Charcoal tipped stick on the sidewalk, young man! Penmanship was stressed as a virtue back then! Quill pens and inkwells also proved challenging, from the stand point of spills and stains. :)

[Dale53]

Stevejet;
Over the years I have brought this rather serious matter to the attention of a good number of people. Unfortunately, most of them dismiss the cautions as the blathering's of an overly cautious "type".

Back in the seventies, the reloading and ammunition industry became quite concerned about the rash of blowups of .38 Special handguns. There were all kinds of theories as to WHY this was suddenly happening and WHAT was the cause. The theories ran all the way from Bullseye was suddenly a bad powder to a Communist Plot. It got so bad that the Dan Wesson, himself, published a warning about the sudden increase in catastrophic failures of GOOD revolvers (Colt, S&W, and Dan Wesson and even Rugers). Finally, the NRA hired the H.P. White laboratory to make a thorough investigation as to what WAS the cause.

H.P. White's findings were quite interesting. Most of the revolvers were blown up with the use of the standard Bullseye target load of 2.7 Bullseye with a 148 gr. Wadcutter bullet. That is a very mild load generating 14,600 PSI (see Alliant reloading data) which is a true low pressure target load that in no way would stress these high grade revolvers. They then loaded a double charge and pressure checked the load. The load generated approximately 37,000 PSI (going by memory here). This is WAY excessive for the .38 Special Cartridge and in fact is in .357 Magnum territory. However, this still does not explain the catastrophic failures as the revolvers in question CAN sustain limited exposure to this kind of pressure (will greatly shorten the revolver life and could do direct damage as a bulged cylinder, etc but NO catastrophic failure). Then they did one more thing - they seated the bullet jusst 1/16th of an inch deeper in the case. The pressure generated was over 60,000 lbs PSI and THIS explains the blown up revolvers.

All of this came at a time of the proliferation of progressive presses and the expanded use of them by relatively inexperienced reloaders. What was happening was an occasional double charge by an error on the part of the machine operator. (I was chief scorer for the local police department regional matches and inside a building doing my job and could occasionally hear a double charge being fired on the range during a match - the sound was VERY distinctive:roll:).

The machine operator ignored or missed the build up of lube and lead shavings In the bullet seating die causing bullets to be deep seated. With a normal charge this was not a problem with the .38 Special, but put a double charge in and THEN deep seat and you have a certified KABOOM!!

It seems that we have forgotten much of what has happened in the past and often times need to be reminded. Now, we have entered the Cowboy Age and, again, we have a proliferation of Progressive Reloading presses operated by relatively inexperienced reloaders. We also have had a sudden increase in KABOOMS but this time with not only .38 Specials but .45 Colts. I submit that the causes are the same. The solution is simple. Either have a mechanical mind, necessary for proper operation of Progressive Presses or let someone else do your loading for you (factory, maybe?). You must NOT let down your guard when reloading. It will bite you if you don't pay attention (just like driving a car, which incidentally is FAR less safe than reloading).

Regarding the word "Ancient" - that best describes MY age. You are just a youngster:mrgreen:.

Dale53

[Stevejet]

Dale53 - Firstly, let me offer my thanks and sincere appreciation for your time and effort to provide a well received and important cautionary suggestion in regards to the "Suspect & Erroneous" data in the Speer No. 8 Manual. The fact that you labored to provided details convinced me to not only make comparisons of the No. 8 manual data with my other, and newer manuals, but helped me in constructing a four paragraph message to my posse members at the Friends, Family & Firearms (FFF) site. My post wasn't in existence `15 minutes and the Moderator/Staff made it into a "Stickie" for the "Reloading" subject folder. The specific gun model and pressure numbers you provided coupled with some "percentages" of over the Max powder weights I inserted made my post much more effective than a general "red-flag and hold the horses" type posting. I've only been a member of the FFF and CB communties for about 3 months, but the information and exchanges I've received in that short period make these two sites welcome and enriching places to visit. It is the obligation of "seasoned kool guys" like ourselves to pass on the true essentials of what we know (and don't) and have experienced as "Life's Truths" if only because there are many folks who will not take time or invest it into reading and study.

Your latest informative and instructive "rave" about "seating die lube/debris build up" and the consequences of "seating depth safety margin" incursion and the resultant "pressure demon"is exactly what many of us need, both as initial informatiion and as periodic reminders. So, any time you feel like mounting the soapbox to deliver an educational screed, vent or general purpose rave, be assured there are many of us who will gladly be receptive to them because of their appropriatness and because we truly need them!

So, your good deed will, i'm sure, not go unpunished. But the benefits and appreciation of the knowledge and opinions you pass to us will far out weigh what any mob of 40 will ever contribute. So.......RAVE ON BROTHA'.

Best regards, Stevejet :Fire:

[Stevejet]

CB Gents - Just thought I'd pass to you the post I made to my other favorite site (FFF) as the result of very valuable information I received here.



WARNING - SPEER NO. 8 RELOADING MANUAL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YES, A WARNING! I received a cautionary bit of IMPORTANT ADVICE last night while visiting the Cast Boolit web site. The first two reloading manuals I bought, in 1972, were the Speer No. 8 and the Lyman 45th Editions, both published in 1970. It has become known over time that the data collected and published in the Speer No. 8 Manual is now SUSPECT AND IN FACT DANGEROUS in regards to various cartridges, especially handguns.

In the Speer No. 10 Reloading Manual, page 107, it is stated...."The data in the Number 8 and earlier manuals was based on primer appearance, ease of case extraction, and case head expansion. These methods are still valid, and are the only ways the reloader can estimate the safety of his loads without some rather complicated laboratory equipment."

A member of Cast Boolits, Dale53, was alert enough to inform me that the Speer No. 8 Manual data had been found to be erroneous and very dangerous when new "pressure testing" data became available. Revisons were subsequently published in the Speer No. 9 Manual.

I did a comparison of .38 Special and .45 Colt data between my copies of the No.8 and No.10 manuals and even looked at other newer manuals from Lyman, Hornady and Lee, which all confirmed that the Speer No. 8 data was erroneous and should be considered dangerous. Some of my comparisons disclosed MAXIMUM loads from the No.8 Manual for .38 Special cartridges were as much as 2 1/2 grains higher than the newer "pressure barrel" data. Differences of 1 to 2 1/2 grains of powder in various loadings represent as much as 12 to 25 percent higher powder weights than are recommended by todays instrumented MAXIMUM LOADS!

Dale53 had a Speer No. 8 Manual load that was 1 grain below MAXIMUM tested by a friend who works at a commercial ammunition manufacturer. The round(s) disclosed an instrumented pressure in excess of 67,000 units of pressure! Dale53 was astounded as he had not experienced any extraction or primer pocket problems or signs in his S&W Model 19. A friend of his shooting this same load in a S&W M28 did have extraction problems which prompted Dale to have the load tested.

I am most appreciative for the "heads up" advice of this gentleman, Dale53 from Cast Boolits, who was very alert and diligent in catching and informing me of this "old manual data" danger that is still lurking in the tall grass of ignorance.

Lesson learned.....refer to other manuals and newer published works from the companies that do the testing.

I used FFF's Quick Links to determine if this subject were archived or posted in the past and found no mention of the Speer No. 8 Manual being suspect.

PLEASE PASS THIS ON in your future personal dealings and conversations with others when you discuss or correspond in matters of reloading manual data. Thanks!

[Bret4207]

Bret & StrawHat:

What's the minimum age requirement for the "old fart" portion? I think I've got a handle on the crusty part of the moniker. I don't want to have to wait too long.

Trust me, if you're already crusty, chances are you're an old fart too! COF syndrome can start at age 6 or 7 in certain rare individuals. These tend to be the no nonsense, huntin'-fishin'-trappin' type young men with a flair for understatement and an attitude that would make Barry Goldwater look like a flaming San Fransisco Liberal. More normally it sets in around age 40-45 when the subject realizes that all his hard work has done is land him in a higher tax bracket, make him the target of any group with with a left leaning agenda, that his kids are AFU, that the love of his life is flirting with menopause and Oprah, that he should have hung onto that '70 Chevelle Super Sport he let go for $1250.00 and that there are folks who just have no love for American tradition. At that point true disillusionment sets in and he either goes through a mid life crisis, a nervous breakdown or morphs into a true "Crusty Old Fart". COF's are easily recognized in places like the Mall where they will be found making rude comments to sales people with multiple facial piercings and tatoos, waiters with plucked eyebrows, young men with their butt crack showing and "gangstas" who refuse to yield to he and his wifes right of way. (So far my wife has only been mildly irritated at my comments and refusal to "let it go") The key to COF status appears to be the ability to piss of darn near everybody, especially OTHER COFs!!!!


My first "real" loading books were Speer #8 and Phil Shapres book. I used loads from both in a Colt Cobra. Lord knows what the pressures were, but nothing blew up. Then I got the Lyman 45, the RCBS and best of all the Hornady books. Funny how my brass lasted so much longer.....

[Stevejet]

AMEN on the brass, brotha'. I'm still reloading about 480 of the original 500 .45 Colt brass (W-W) I started with in 1972. 8.0 grains of Unique and heavy (263 grain) cast Keith style wadcutters and other RNFP leads. Works for me.

As for the COF attitude, sounds like what a U.S. Marine told me when my company, in their twisted wisdom, assigned me to the USS Kennedy for 6 months, to wit...."Marines don't give a damn....but, they do care." Nothing wrong with that!

Though I use newer manuals, I still always refer to my Lyman 45th Edition as my bible and temper it a bit with Lee's Second Edition and Lyman Cast Bullets for Handguns book.

Best regards, Stevejet

[Bret4207]

By the way Steve, I'm also a member at FFF. Nice site, nice folks. There's one guy over there who does little essays on his guns and had bee-you-tee-full pics of same. I drool over many of them.

[Stevejet]

One Guy! Sometimes it's a regular Show-and-Tell, not that I'm jealous!

[Thor Bloodax]

Is the .38 special any good, you ask? On the Macon PD in the bad ol 60's , most blue-coats carried a S&W model 10 with six in the chamber and a 12 round dump box for reloads. Most detectives carried a snubby in .38 special. A few carried .44 mag, .45 auto or .9mm (in a Browining Hi-Power). The .38 will do the job if you do yours: put the bullet in the hurt-a-lot zone. I loaded some +P loads for my squad mates and they had to try them out on bad dogs and a night-shined buck deer at 100 yards caught in kudzu thicket. One shot kill from a 6" S&W. Model 10's and M&P: love them. Buy the oldies. You won't regret it.

[GSM]

Bret:

More normally it sets in around age 40-45 ...

This explains sooooo many things now.