.45ACP Revolver Bullets

[RVM45]

.....For a number of reasons, I settled on a pair of .45Ruger Blackhawks for my go-to big- bore survival handguns. I also decided; for a number of resons; to stick to .45ACP Brass for the most part.

.....I've been looking for a good +P .45ACP load- nothing Magnum; or +Stupid- that would make the .45ACP into a reasonable deer Gun(never mind legal technicalities under survival conditions); and with perhaps a wee bit more authority for personal defence use- since 8 round "crotch-to-collarbone" bursts of fire, are pretty well ruled out with the Single Action.

.....I was thinking something like a 220Grain, Keith-type semiwadcutter, at 1000-(just maybe) 1200 FPS.

.....A nice fellow told me that Lyman makes a 238Grain Keith-type .45 Bullet; with an exceptionally large meplat; specifically designed fo .45ACP Revolvers. Sounds like just what I wanted- only I can't find a description; or picture/part number for the mold.

.....As a point of fact; that's how I came across this fine forum. Does anyone know anything about this mold/bullet combo- or have any good starting loads? ( I've never used exotic {read: non-Hercules} powders for handguns.)

.....Thanks guys!

.....RVM45 [smilie=s:

[ktw]

I suspect the bullet you seek is the Lyman 452423, a discontinued but popular design for the 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim. There was a recent group buy here for that design in Lee blocks. Lyman blocks turn up on ebay from time to time. The Ballisticast #1102 is identical to the Lyman 452423 for all practical purposes.

I shoot 45 ACP only in single action revolvers. I tend to use 255gr bullets in that application. I have not found it difficult to push them as fast as 950-1050 fps, within reasonable pressure limits, using HS-6 and 2400. Unique gives me something in the range of 750-900 fps with the 255gr bullet.

-ktw

[dubber123]

I suspect the bullet you seek is the Lyman 452423, a discontinued but popular design for the 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim. There was a recent group buy here for that design in Lee blocks. Lyman blocks turn up on ebay from time to time. The Ballisticast #1102 is identical to the Lyman 452423 for all practical purposes.

I shoot 45 ACP only in single action revolvers. I tend to use 255gr bullets in that application. I have not found it difficult to push them as fast as 950-1050 fps, within reasonable pressure limits, using HS-6 and 2400. Unique gives me something in the range of 750-900 fps with the 255gr bullet.

-ktw

+1 to ktw's comments, the Lyman 452423 is likely what they are describing to you.
This boolit will also feed through my 1911, as an added bonus. Lee's 200 gr. round flat design actually weighs 215 out of wheelweights, and might be worth considering, as it's easily available. Very accurate when pushed fast out of my 4" Smith 625.

[Kraschenbirn]

I believe the Lyman mould/bullet you've described ("238 Grain Keith-type") is probably the old 452423 which is no longer listed in Lyman's catalogues. Your best bet for finding one would probably be to browse fleaBay or put up a WTB ("want-to-buy) on some of the shooter's newsgroups/forums.

Dunno how it would work in a Ruger, but the Lee 452-230-TC (a truncated cone design with a generous metplat), for me, shot quite well from a 6 1/2" S&W M25. The mould I had then cast right at 234 grains and I'd load it to 900-950 fps using Unique or AA#5 for club bowling pin matches. Not exactly a "bear-killer" but very accurate and quite controllable in rapid fire.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

The 238 grain Lyman SWC mentioned is the Keith designed 452423. It was designed for the 45 Auto Rim case or the ACP case when used with clips in the Colt or Smith and Wesson DA sixguns. Lyman discontiued that bullet some years back.

The Ruger SA revolver is a whole different ball game from the Colt and Smith and Wesson DA sixguns as it won't accept AR brass or ACP cases with clips. This means no crimp on the brass as it is used to headspace the case in the cylinder. To use the above mentioned bullet, it has to be deep seated in the ACP case, which reduces powder capacity and velocity.

The Ruger SA cylinder also has a generous charge hole with a wide headspace shelf. It is a real PITA to get any cylinder part of the bullet to center in the throat and not stick on the shelf. The only easy way to to seat the bullet so their is no bullet shoulder to catch.

So, we are left with deep seating the Keith SWC (if you can find a mold) or using one of the 200 grain SWCs, designed for target use, which also much be deep seated with no exposed shoulder.

IMHO, the best bet in these Ruger cylinders is a 230 grain TC bullet with a meplat on the nose. Just load it like you would for a 45 auto it will fill work slick in the Ruger.

Now let's talk about velocity. With 452423 in a good strong Smith and Wesson, it is no trick to get 1,000 fps with 7.5/Unique. There is data using 2400 powder that jacks the velocity up to the 1,200 to 1,300 fps range. Of course this is with the bullet seated in the crimp groove, which won't work in the Ruger.

I doubt very seriously you can get the velocity you want out of your Ruger DA pistol, using ACP cases in the ACP cylinder, without some pressure issues and red line loads.

My considered advice to you would be to stick with standard pressure and velocity ACP loads and if you want more, use the 45 Colt cylinder and loads. It is easy to get 1,100 to 1,200 fps loads with a good SWC bullet, in a Ruger Blawkhawk in 45 Colt.

[45 2.1]

What your looking for is the older 230 gr. Thompson designed Lyman 452490. It is an excellent boolit for the 45 ACP cylindered Blackhawks. If you can find a SC or a DC mold, have it hollow pointed and you will have a great boolit for your blackhawk. Lyman changed the design to a 255 gr. version quite some time ago and it will occupy more room in the case even though you could hollow point it down to about 230 gr..

[Bass Ackward]

I just got a 250 grain TC cone design for Christmas that I designed myself and it's already showing promise. Point here is that if you see one, you can design one, or anything else your mind can dream up. If this turns your crank, look here.

http://www.mountainmolds.com/

[yeahbub]

RVM45, this is just a thought, but I've been looking up info on the .45 Super, intended for use in 1911's that have been suitably modified with the proper springs, etc. It sounds like what you might be looking for in terms of load data and performance. Of necessity, a revolver has the advantage of chambers which fully support the case, hence, there is somewhat greater variability in the range of safe pressures than in a stock 1911. My ventures in this direction with a 1911 yielded a consistent 1200fps with the Hornady 200gr XTP and 1100fps with the Lee 200gr rnfp, both with Blue Dot, all with generously rounded primers and no other signs of stress. I can't recall the load from memory, but it was slightly compressed.

[ktw]

The Ruger SA cylinder also has a generous charge hole with a wide headspace shelf. It is a real PITA to get any cylinder part of the bullet to center in the throat and not stick on the shelf. The only easy way to to seat the bullet so their is no bullet shoulder to catch.

I have not been finding it necessary to deep seat (to the shoulder) in 45ACP single action revolvers (Ruger Blackhawk, FA97). I tend to seat the 255gr Keiths out long in 45 ACP brass and taper crimp on the drive band below the crimp groove.

There can be a very slight resistance as the cylinder portion of the bullet enters the throat but this is a very light friction fit and I have not seen any problems with rounds catching on the front of the chamber on loading.

Until you mentioned it above, I did not even realize this was a potential issue. :wink:

-ktw

[MT Gianni]

I would seriously consider keeping a 45 LC cylinder and 50 loaded rounds just for deer. Cylinder changeout is a snap and this platform I believe is better suited in a blackhawk for heavier bullets. Gianni

[Char-Gar]

KTW.... This has been a serious point of frustration for me with the 45 ACP cylinder in my Ruger Blackhawk. I have even had the throats opened up to .453. SWCs with exposed shoulders will go, but it take a some jiggling and manuplation to center them so they will slip past that darn headspace shelf. This is with bullets sized .452. I also use a taper crimp to factory specs.

I get around this by seating the bullet 452460 with the shoulder flush with the case mouth. I get good accuracy and these rounds will still feed in my 45 autopistols.

I don't have this problem in my 2 S&W 1917, my S&W 25-2, my S&W 625 or my Colt 1917. All of these use a much more narrow headspace shelf. The 625 has a tapered cone on the back end of the throat that also helps.

Maybe Ruger has made some changes, but others have had the same problem with their Ruger 45 ACP cylinders, but the problem may not be universal. Glad you have not been bitten.

[Larry Gibson]

I'd stick with a 190-205 gr SWC over 7.5 gr of Unique. This is the standard "Cooper" defense load for the 45 ACP. This load runs 1000+ fps out of my M1911 and M1917 S&W and should out of your Ruger also. I also use this bullet in my .45 Colt Uberti SAA and Rossi M92. It kills deer quite well out of handguns. A FB bullet is most often more accurate than a BB one. The old original H&G 68 with a FB is an excellent choice.

Larry Gibson

[RVM45]

.....Thank you all for several thoughful and useful replies.

.....I just realized reading some of y'all's posts that the nominal/actual bullet weight can vary considerably. Back in the early eighties; there used to be some really short-nosed; big meplat; 220 grain lead SWCs around. Every gunstore in the area carried them- though they were- deservedly- not terribly popular. I never saw a semiauto that would feed them reliably. However, out of the revolver, feeding wouldn't be an issue. More meplat generally means more tissue disruption. Finally, with that big ugly flat nose; one would be most unlikely to mistake one's .45ACP Revolver loads for semiauto loads.(I don't have a 1911A1 at present; but hope springs eternal.)

.....Couldn't remember the part number; or even which company the molds that these bullets were cast in, came from. However, from y'all's descriptions, they could have been any of a number of designs.

.....RVM45 [smilie=s:

[35remington]

Just some velocities for your perusal for a Smith 625 five inch, which is a little different animal than a Ruger. These bullets are seated to their crimp groove, so if the Ruger needs deeper seating cut the powder charge or expect some velocity/pressure increases.

Comparing to other loads used in the 625, these are reasonable and sensible, as are most similar suggestions I've seen.

Lee 255 RF 6.5 Unique 955 f/s
Lee 255 RF 6.8 Unique 995 f/s

RCBS Cowboy 230 FP (my bullet recommendation to you as it does not have a shoulder and can be seated out to get around the case capacity problem; also has a wide flat nose) 13.0 2400 930 fps. Not an efficient load; Unique is better as it gets more consistent velocities. Probably could stand an increase in charge weight, but I still see Unique as able to do it better.

2400 is completely unsuited to any lighter bullet, and I now only use it occasionally, with 255's.

RCBS Cowboy 230 FP 6.8 Unique 960 fps A much better load than 2400. Herco is just as capable as Unique but I don't have those loads to hand right now. Worth a try if you have some laying around, like I have for pheasant loads.

Lee 255 SWC 13.0 2400 1020 fps
Lee 255 RF 13.0 2400 1005 fps

2400 really only seems to come into its own with the heavier bullets, 250-255 grains. In my gun anyway.

For H&G type 200 LSWC:
7.3 Unique 1080 fps

For the Lee 230 FP intended for the .45 Auto
7.6 Power Pistol 995 fps

We have also used Ramshot Enforcer in the Smith and a five shot Taurus, but again it is only suitable with 230 grain bullets on up. I can supply data if you wish. Despite recommendations in the Ramshot loading guide, the 185 and 200 grain weights, when used with Enforcer, show the occasional lower velocity shot-sometimes 150-200 fps slower than the average. It is easy to tell which charge hole produced the lower velocity, as there will be a larger amount of unburned powder granules in that cylinder throat.

Also, the Sierra loading manual offers loads intended for .45 ACP revolvers only that exceed levels published for the automatic.

[racepres]

I have settled on two loads for my 45 Win Mag contender. [No it aint a revolver, but the loading is pertinent] Besides the one Win Mag loading, the other is the 45 ACP With what Lee calls their 255 gr rfn pb, actually falls at 250 cast from water quenched WW. I happen to be using 9.5 gr of AA#7 and WW primers. Chronographs at just 1000fps out of my 10" contender, But strikes w/ authority, and I believe would still be "safe" if some found their way into an auto!! Point is, This has been a very nice Boolit for me!! Good luck.. MV
Edit; Forgot to add, I like the Meplat on the RFN type!

[Bret4207]

RVM45- Those flat faced designs you mention bring back memories of the old bowling pin loads from that same era. Might be what you remember.

Unless your Indiana deer are the size of small elk, I would say a 200-250 gr FN design should bring home the venison. Maybe you'll have to track a bit, but at 950-1100 fps, which is reasonable, there should be no big issue given proper shot placement. Broadside rib shots should result in through and through penetration on deer under 150 lbs. Hollow pointing will only increase the effectiveness of your load and is fairly easy with a Forster HP jig.

What brand of "survival" are you talking? Downfall of society/Y2K type or "Survivorman" type scenarios?

[Stuckcase]

Saeco 058 is the cats *** in the ACP. I use many configurations up to and past Rowland level performance. The Saeco 058 has a large Meplats and does not consume powder space as much as other designs. My personal favorite is a square bottomed grease grooves Lyman 452423. Sort of nostalgic I guess

[scattershot]

230 grain LBT. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://www.montanabulletworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/DSC2973-2-45Colt-LBT-230GR.-LFN.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-acp-lbt-230gr-lfn-pb/&tbnid=mlxeBAqAjT9C5M&vet=1&docid=_kyihYIJvC9j7M&w=1430&h=949&q=230+grain+lbt+bullet&hl=en&source=sh/x/im

[tja6435]

I like the LBT 452-230-LFN

[pettypace]

This picture was previously posted on the site, perhaps by Outpost75. I keep going back to it as a point of reference:

264752

According to Hatcher, the muzzle velocity of a 200 grain 44-40 bullet from a 7-1/2" barrel was 935 f/s. So, obviously, if expansion is desired, just cast a soft enough alloy.

Here are predicted terminal ballistic numbers for that bullet (or any other 200 grain bullet at 900 ft/s that mushrooms to .60 caliber):

264753

For self defense, 16" of penetration and 50 grams of wound mass ("more or less as per MacPherson WTI model") is just about as good as it gets from any .45 caliber bullet. But my guess is that .60 caliber expansion in a "real" target (i.e., not a naked water jug) is optimistic.

Suppose you cast a hard bullet and get no expansion at all. Then you'll get more penetration and (according to the MacPherson model), less wound mass. How much more penetration and how much less wound mass will depend on the shape of the bullet. For a 200 grain .45 caliber wadcutter at 900 f/s it would look more like this:

264754

If even more penetration is desirable, then any round nose, truncated cone, or small metplat SWC should go about like this:

264755

Note that the 27 grams of wound mass in the graph above is understated by the MacPherson model which discounts penetration beyond 18". But if there's meat beyond 18" it will get wounded.

Of course, that's just 200 grains at 900 f/s. A heavier bullet might do a bit better.

[Burnt Fingers]

Guys,

Check the dates on these posts! This one is a real zombie thread. 12 years old.

[Outpost75]

In my Ruger .45 ACP revolvers and also in the S&W M1917 and Colt New Service I use Accurate 45-240H1, which has a long nose and reduced seating depth to maintain maximum powder capacity. This bullet casts 240 grains in Lyman #2 alloy which is necessary for S&W M1917 revolvers having shallow rifling, but runs heavier, about 252 grains in 1 to 30 tin-lead, which I use in the Ruger revolvers and Colt New Service. Based upon Speer data for their 250-grain lead SWC a charge of 6 grains of Unique should provide about 820 fps, which is a full-charge load for the S&W M1917 and Brazilian M1937s. In the Rugers and post-1920 Colt New Service I load either 5 grains of Bullseye, 5.5 grains of WST, or 7 grains of AutoComp for 850 fps.

[siamese4570]

I get the rcbs 270 gr swc out of ruger 45acp cylinder at 900 fps. That'll do anything I need to do.
siamese4570

[megasupermagnum]

I get the rcbs 270 gr swc out of ruger 45acp cylinder at 900 fps. That'll do anything I need to do.
siamese4570

They call that 45 super.

[Dale53]

I have a couple of large frame Ruger Single actions in .45 Colt. My Ruger SS Bisley Convertible, as issued, had undersize cylinder throats. Using a Manson reamer kit (made for the task complete with pilots) I reamed both cylinder throats to .4525". Now, they accept my home cast .452" bullets in both .45ACP cylinder AND the .45 Colt cylinder. I have mostly been using the ACP cylinder with target loads (H&G #69 (flat based #68) at 4.0 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent for the range. It is quite easy to run 7.5 grs. of Unique which will give close to 1000 fps, and is a very useful field load.

I have also worked with Elmer Keith's Lyman 452424 (250 gr SWC) in both the .45 ACP cylinder and the .45 Colt cylinder.

NOTE: As the information in the posts above, you cannot roll crimp the .45 ACP case in the Ruger Single actions as the case must headspace on the mouth of the case.

There is an easy solution. If you desire to use the .45 ACP case for hogs and deer, just load the heavy bullet in the .45 Cowboy Special case. I got mine direct from Starline brass. The is simply the .45 ACP case capacity in a rimmed case of the same rim dimension of the .45 Colt. It allows you to load the heavy bullet, crimp in the crimp groove and shoot. They work in the ACP cylinder just like the .45 Colt case works in it's cylinder.

So, you have choices and you can pick what ever you want/need for your purposes.

The .45 Cowboy Special case was developed to load reduced loads in the .45 Colt cylinders for Cowboy Action shooting. The accuracy demands are not great in Cowboy competition, so they work fine with both smokeless and black powder. Accuracy is "so-so" but it does what is needed. The unintended "by product" is that the .45 Cowboy Special case now gives owners of single action Ruger Convertibles a great option for their .45 ACP cylinder should an owner want or need a case that can be crimped and will work perfectly in the single action

FWIW
Dale53

[onelight]

Thanks Dale that is nice information to have . I will have to watch for some cowboy cases.