best pb speed method

[charger 1]

You guys may get sick of this stuff but here goes another op for discussion. Out of all we know about driving cast fast and accurate what would you say the SINGLE best method of driving a plain base fast would be? I mean if someone new only had a PB mold yet wanted to really sing em out. Lets just for arguement sake say he's trying to accurately break 2000 fps with a 405 gr pb 45/70 in a ruger #1..Personally I'm thinkin water drop some ww's to get a decent hardness, then with a powder that gives slight compression use an upside down GC. I pose ths question strictly from the boolit aspect. Not rifling, barrel length, etc

[Bass Ackward]

SINGLE best method of driving a plain base fast would be?

I am not a big PB guy for rifles as I don't plink unless I have a 22LR. The single best I would say is paper patching.

[trk]

The first thing I would do, regardless of alloy, patching, lube etc. would be to throat the .45-70 to the same throat the Ruger #1 in .458WM has. My .458WM does well with most everything (400-500 gr bullets max loads - est speeds (from loading manuals) of 2000 + ) That's with gas checked bullets. Plain base will be another issue - there will be an upper limit. SO P.P. may well be you best bet. The throat in the .45-70/Ruger#3 is abrupt.

[44man]

I do things the easy way. I forget all the numbers and theorys and just start increasing loads until accuracy goes south and leading starts to show up. I don't think you will need any upside down gas checks. Good hard cast can be driven pretty fast but you must remember every boolit wants to be spun right. Going too fast or slow from what the rate of twist will support will start to give you problems. That can even cause leading where a better match can stop it.
I never shoot for a certain velocity with any gun, just the most accurate. Then I will check the speed and it is what it is. I don't care if it is 1100 fps or 1900 fps as long as the boolit hits what I aim at.
You might very well exceed 2000 fps with a plain base if everything matches up. But to do it with accuracy will mean you need the right boolit.
The whole secret to cast boolits is to leave the chrono at home! :drinks:
You are trying for something while ignoring those important items like twist, etc.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think your pushing the envelope but then i guess thats half the fun. Im interested in hearing your results though.

[45 2.1]

PSB filler.

[Forester]

I don't think 2000fps is that big a challenge for cast. I have seen and shot hundreds of .308" boolits in the last few years moving at or over 2000. Water dropped WWs with a gas check, several different powders. I would be pretty interested if someone was approaching 3000fps or more with cast and what their paticular setup was.

Of course, all of this is predicated on acuracy. I don't care how fast the boolit is if I can't hit what I am shooting at.

[Lloyd Smale]

i too have done small bore rifles to 2500 but that was with gas checks. to do a big bore plain based would be a bigger challange

[44man]

Lloyd, I think it can be done but DON'T leave a gas check off a boolit designed for one.
Someone needs to have two identical boolits, one gas check, one PB and work each up to it's limits with each alloy so we all know what happens.

[Bass Ackward]

Lloyd, I think it can be done but DON'T leave a gas check off a boolit designed for one.
Someone needs to have two identical boolits, one gas check, one PB and work each up to it's limits with each alloy so we all know what happens.


44man,

There is absolutely no way two design to bullets exactly the same one with a check and one without. You can alter design to keep the same center of balance the same, but they won't be exact.

I know, cause I tried it. Two 420 grain, 45 caliber bullets. Objectively, the PB accuracy peeked around 1350 without filler while the GC peeked around 1400 fps and again at 2100 fps. Using PSB, I could get .... so so accuracy up to about 1500 fps, but then the PB wanted to be hardened and .... I ain't into that.

So I gave the PB to a friend that hardened the heck out of it and zings it at 1900 fps but he is peeped and happy with 2" groups too.

[Forester]

So what is the best anyone has done with cast with a gas check and hardened?...any .300Win Mag or .300Wby Mag shooters out there want to give it a try?

Oven Heat treated WWs could get to about 30-34BHN? So in theory you would be good to go up to 45,000psi with good boolit fit and some damn good lube...

[charger 1]

So what is the best anyone has done with cast with a gas check and hardened?...any .300Win Mag or .300Wby Mag shooters out there want to give it a try?

Oven Heat treated WWs could get to about 30-34BHN? So in theory you would be good to go up to 45,000psi with good boolit fit and some damn good lube...

Agreed.I've done some crazy type speeds accurately with the lott GC's and hardened boolits, but I'm wondering where that threshold would be without the GC? and how best to increase it?

[Forester]

Agreed.I've done some crazy type speeds accurately with the lott GC's and hardened boolits, but I'm wondering where that threshold would be without the GC? and how best to increase it?

What kind of speed and accuracy were you able to reach?

[charger 1]

What kind of speed and accuracy were you able to reach?

One hole with a custom LBT mold. I think its 460's grain weight was hardening them and tossing em out in the high 2400's

[montana_charlie]

What kind of speed and accuracy were you able to reach?One hole with a custom LBT mold. I think its 460's grain weight was hardening them and tossing em out in the high 2400's
That was a lead bullet in a 45/70? And...you feel a need to go faster than that?
What was the twist rate in that barrel?
CM

[charger 1]

That was a lead bullet in a 45/70? And...you feel a need to go faster than that?
What was the twist rate in that barrel?
CM

No that was in a lott Charlie and thats as fast as it'll go

[rhead]

Paper patching with soft lead will get the velocity and expansion. I have exceded 2100 in a 30 30 and 2700 in a hornet with a paper patched soft lead boolet. I got tired of the recoil before I got to 2000 fps with the 45 70 but accuracy was not a problem.

[Larry Gibson]

About 1600 fps is the limit for most PB hard cast bullets if one wants any semblence of accuracy. You can up that some by using certain fillers, slow burning powders, using inverted GCs or using other wads under the bullet. However, wouldn't it just be easier to use the GC on a GC designed bullet in the first place? That gets you there without the muss or fuss.

Larry Gibson

[longbow]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd ed. shows several loads for plain base boolits in .45-70 that exceed 2000 FPS:

- 457122 (322 gr.): 2220 FPS max.
- 457124 (366 gr.): 2135 FPS max.
- 457193 (420 gr.): 2058 FPS max.

I used to own a Siamese Mauser I had converted to .45-70 with a 26" barrel and loaded plain base lead bullets of 405 gr. (Lee I think) and Lyman 457125 464 gr. over a max. book load of IMR 4320. The primers showed no sign of pressure but I didn't much like the recoil.

The Lyman Reloading Handbook 46th ed. lists a 405 gr. "J" bullet over 62 gr. of IMR 4320 for 1976 FPS. So the cast boolit must have been close - didn't have chronograph then.

I got a little leading in the last 2" at the muzzle (lube failure?) until I put a .410 fiber wad in - no trouble after that.

I'm not going to claim target winning accuracy but I could hold my own shooting a 12" gong at 200 yards and balloons at 300 yards. Until the recoil pounded me silly (I was young and stupid... maybe things haven't changed except for the young part).

Longbow

[DonH]

A gent i know who is one of the best lead bullet shooters in existence has spoken of vetting velocity above 1700 fps with 25-1 alloy plain base bullets. A caveat here is that he uses gain twist barrels.
this guy shoots groups at 200 yds that most CB shooters would be proud of at 50 yds.

[Forester]

Paper patching with soft lead will get the velocity and expansion. I have exceded 2100 in a 30 30 and 2700 in a hornet with a paper patched soft lead boolet. I got tired of the recoil before I got to 2000 fps with the 45 70 but accuracy was not a problem.

Paper patching .22 caliber boolits sounds like a lot of fun![smilie=1:

What weight boolit in the hornet?