Duplicating the 1907 US Palma Cartridge with cast

[madsenshooter]

According to The History and Records of the Palma Match (The World Long Range Rifle Team Championships) by Colin C. C. Cheshire, 1992; 1999. p.4.97 "The USA shot with the "Krag" Rifle of service pattern and regular Ordnance issue with aperture sights. The ammunition by the Union Metallic Company was loaded with 36 1/2 Grains of W.A. powder and the Thomas pointed bullet Of 203 1/2 grains, giving a muzzle velocity of 2,140 foot seconds."

I'm going to try to duplicate the load this year for Camp Perry, since my alloy now has my NOE 316365 spitzer bullets weighing just that much. I've shot a really good short range group in the past using that amount of powder too. In my case it was RL19. If I can get accuracy equal to the jacketed match bullets I used last year, that's the plan Mr Peabody put up on the drawing board.

It should be relatively easy to get that velocity using an alloy that I've added some copper to pushed with some slow burning powder. I found out the other day that my new alloy will take more pressure than the alloy I was previously using, which was too high in Sb. Spitzers are a problem in some Krags, but my 92/96 rifles feed them well.

[725]

A wonderful quest. Many years ago I got out of the latest - greatest, bigger - better mind set. Now I delight in just what you are doing. Go for it - good luck!

[frnkeore]

I too, like your project and am interested in the results. I have a 1898 Krag, a NOE 311365, lino and some vintage Hodgdon 4831 surplus powder.

Are you saying that your going to magazine load the 365 and not single load, as the 203 Thomas did? Will the GC still be above the shoulder at 3.089?

Frank

[madsenshooter]

Frank, I'm using the 316 version of the mold. I size it down it two steps, as cast down to .314, then down to .311, and heat treat afterwards. The 316 version has a fatter nose, it measures .310-.311 at the crimp/cleaning groove where yours would be closer to .305. As a result, it literally stuffs the throat of my .310 groove diameter barrel at an OAL of only 3.05". The gascheck would be just a tiny bit below the neck/shoulder junction, about the height of a gascheck. I have a couple 92/96 rifles that feed spitzers well. I have to magazine feed for rapid fire at Camp Perry, and I've built a charger to facilitate a quick refill of the magazine. Spritzes them in with one finger. It ain't pretty, but it's functional.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm watching too. I've got a very nice 1898 Krag and I've been planning a similar project, but not quite so ambitious. My goal is to get the Lyman 311284 to about 2,000 fps to match the standard ball loading of the Krag and hopefully to follow the trajectory markings on the rear sight at the various ranges.

Love that speed loader for the Krag.

[frnkeore]

Love that speed loader for the Krag.

Me, too and I bet Ole' Teddy would have made you a millioneer for that idea :)

Frank

[madsenshooter]

Scharf, a fellow Krag shooter is making a version of the loader and selling them on ebay. I have the NOE version of the 284 too, if the spitzer can't cut it....Oh, I'm also using an 1898 rear sight ramp, the one made for the 2200fps load that was cracking lugs, hoping to be a little closer to the graduations, though it really doesn't matter to me. Here's some tidbits about the little serrations on the side of the 1902 sight: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?32358-Little-differences-1898-and-1902-sights

[JeffinNZ]

I'm watching too. I've got a very nice 1898 Krag and I've been planning a similar project, but not quite so ambitious. My goal is to get the Lyman 311284 to about 2,000 fps to match the standard ball loading of the Krag and hopefully to follow the trajectory markings on the rear sight at the various ranges.

Love that speed loader for the Krag.

My Mk VI duplicate load for .303 Brit is a 220gr bullet over 41gr H4350 for 2050fps. Would be suitable for the Krag I would think.

[RPRNY]

My pet Krag load is based on CE Harris' "Deer and 600 yard Load" and is the Lyman 311041 180grs GC (weighs 186grs) over 22 grs IMR 4227. This delivers 1835 fps in my 1896 Krag and 1851 fps in my Ruger No 3. I'm not sure that 4227 will get you to 2150 with that 203grs but it's at least another data point for you.

[madsenshooter]

I'll take all the data points I can get as I no longer have access to a chronograph. With the 311 version of the bullet, I was getting a tad over 2000fps with only 36.5gr of RL19. But the fatter nose 316 version increases the full bore bearing surface of the bullet substantially, so I know I'm not going to get the same velocity with it. I have SPP210 which is about 4198 speed, RL19, Accurate's surplus DP85, Accurate 2700, W760 and a boosted caseful of W860 to try before July. One of those ought to give me the results I'm looking for. Last year I used Nosler 168gr match bullets. They gave me a fairly consistent 1.5" iron sight grouping.

[Scharfschuetze]

Thanks for that info Madenshooter. My rifle has the 1902 sight and thus should be good to go for the 2,000 fps loading.

Do you have a name or search term for that Krag speedloader? My search terms come up with every kind of speed load but the one for a Krag. A speed loader would certainly open up some opportunities for some light competition at the local level with the old girl.

[frnkeore]

Do you use a 303 stripper clip in your speed loader?

Frank

[madsenshooter]

Sharf, just search Krag charger on ebay. No Frank, I do use the fingers off a K31 charger cause I made mine of really thick .035" brass. The one on ebay was designed by a fellow who uses the handle parashooter on several boards. He designed it, but didn't want to make them, a fellow I've shot Krags with at Camp Perry the last couple years decided that he would. If he wasn't my friend, I'd make them out of aluminum and undercut him.

[madsenshooter]

It's 7:18am, 29 degrees, I'm patiently waiting on a warm front to come through. I've loaded up the ladder from 36.5gr to 41gr with RL19 and DP85 and I have a couple loads of boosted 860. Just for fun I loaded some near max charges of 10B101 too. Just need things to get a little warmer, I hate shivering while shooting.

The Krag has a front blade that is .070" wide and .100" taller than original that I made for it. It has an 1898 rear sight that someone cut a deep V notch in. I'm trying to use a sight picture that has the front side stud level with the top of the V, the wider post sticking up where I can see it without distortion. The barrel was free floated when I got it, from the front of the receiver ring to about 1/2" behind the upper band, the lower band is fitted so that it is tight to the wood, but barely touches the barrel.

I guess while I'm waiting I'll clean the barrel and prefoul it with LLA thinned with Marvel Mystery Oil.

[mikeym1a]

WELL, it's up to 35F here at my house, and that's with the sun facing me. I'd like to go shooting, but got a lot to do today. Maybe If I get off my duff and do It, I'd still have time. Decisions, decisions................

[badgeredd]

Madsenshooter,

Are you water quenching your bullets? I am following this thread with interest and wish you great success at Camp Perry.

Edd

[madsenshooter]

Heat treating Edd, baking them in a little convection oven that minimizes the temp swing at 435 for about an hour and a half, then quenching. The sized bands turn a glassy black. I'm not getting any growth with this alloy, and I haven't done any hardness testing, though I did set aside some culls that I heat treated too. Just gotta find that pesky little scope once they've aged a couple weeks.

102554102553

[madsenshooter]

Didn't shoot any groups worth writing home about today, so I'll write it here. Looks like I should have been going down the ladder instead of up! 38gr of RL19 wasn't bad, first shot was after I'd shot several loads with 10B101 that were blowing alloy back on the caseneck. Despite that, 9/10 of those were in the black of the SR1. 39.5gr of RL19 was the best of the day, groups got larger as the charge went up. Oddly, the 38gr of DP85 was blowing alloy back on the caseneck too. It's supposed to burn about the same speed as RL19, maybe it was faster because I was using a WLRM primer. But I know it needs a magnum primer, otherwise I get little unburned balls falling into the chamber upon extraction. RL19 didn't blow any alloy back, not even at the 41gr charge. I'll go back down the ladder with RL19, but it appears I need something that burns slower, but cleanly, and doesn't require a magnum primer. Maybe some RL22 or 25. None of the duplexed 860 rounds hit the target, I think they all went over the top, though I had the sight set all the way down. They didn't blow any alloy either. The 50grs total of powder was more recoil than I care to deal with! They must've been hauling, hit at least a ft above the other loads. I was shooting off the top of my car, a fellow was shooting off the bench with his two young daughters when I got there. Actually I liked it better, the roof of the bench keeps my sights shaded, and there isn't any shade when shooting highpower! Using the powders I have to work with, I may not get the velocity to duplicate the 1907 load, but that doesn't matter a whole lot, long as I have the bullet weight/style and it hits where I want it to.

[madsenshooter]

I got out with the down the ladder loads yesterday. Nothing shot worth a hoot! Even the 123gr jacketed loads that have shot moa in the past were unpredictable! BadgerEdd was kind enough to run some quickload figures for me that I received yesterday. Quickload says the two RL19 loads above are right in the ballpark for 2150fps and should be running around 30,000psi max pressure. However, I either have not enough or too much of something in my alloy. Unlike the guys using the coppered alloy for hunting, mine is failing between 30,000 and 36,000psi. A quick pressure rise, like that from a magnum primer with DP85 will cause alloy to blow back on the caseneck. 10B101 is doing so at a predicted PSI of 36,600. The slower pressure rise of RL19 with a regular primer and the boosted W860 loads don't. I don't know if it was the culprit, but I used a Dacron tuft filler with about all of yesterday's loads. Back to the drawing board Sherman!

[madsenshooter]

OK, I'm back at the drawing board. Missed a couple matches this weekend, company kept me up both nights before. I only have enough RL19 to load for a 50rd match, with enough left over for Camp Perry too. I have some other alloys to try. With one they're weighing 190gr, but what the heck, Hudson designed 180s and 190s too, I can just say it's a Hudson style load rather than the 203gr 1907 Palma load, though that alloy isn't out of the running yet. But, after reviewing the data sent to me, looks like 4831 burn rate would be ideal, and the price of 7383 is hard to beat right now.

[Scharfschuetze]

Too bad about missing the matches, but if your ammo wasn't up to it, perhaps you saved yourself some frustration.

I haven't been to Camp Perry in years so I hope that you can post some photos of the event during the matches.

[madsenshooter]

Lots o pics here: http://cmp1.zenfolio.com/p631990685/h68fea83b#h69a0fee6

[Scharfschuetze]

No Krags in the photos. I hope you'll correct that soon!

[madsenshooter]

Only a couple. Member Diaute is there, pics 24, 29-31. Notice that wind flag in front of him, I like that end of the range.

[madsenshooter]

I've loaded up some of the 311 version of the bullet too. Checked and lubed they weigh 186gr. An intermediate between Thomas' 180 and 190. Seated out into the rifling OAL is 3.20". My 92/96 feeds them very good at an OAL of 3.10, more reliably than the 3.05 length the 316 version has to be seated to. So I loaded up some into and some out of the rifling to see just how much difference a .1" jump makes in grouping. Doesn't seem to me it'd make much of a difference if your loading practices didn't produce any misalignment to begin with. At either length the check is above the neck/shoulder junction. I'll shoot the comparison out of my scoped 92/96. I got some of that old Russian 4895 to use up.

[Mark Daiute]

Thanks for nothing Bob. I'm going on a diet.

Listen, bore trash not withstanding my backyard testing (I'm limited to 50 yards) is indicating that the 311284 by NOE sized to .311 over 50 grains of 872 is shooting better than my eyes can see. I'm using White Label BAC lube and aluminum gas checks. I traded for on this site. The alloy is 60/40 wheelweights/lino.

With any luck at all I'll test the loads this Sunday afternoon at 200 yards and I'll let you know the results. My only concern is that the bore trash will build up and cause accuracy to degrade. So far there is no sign of that.

See you in about 2-1/2 months.

[madsenshooter]

That bullet has a cleaning groove that should take care of your bore trash Mark. As long as you aren't leaving lead behind it should keep on grouping. I mentioned leading cause it appears that was my problem the other day when nothing would shoot worth a hoot. I forgot about firing several rounds at the end of the previous range session that had alloy blowing back on the case neck. I wanted to be rid of them, adventures in pulling cast bullets usually don't work out for me. I'm making a long adventure out of it Mark, day before Perry up to Ypsilanti for a cast bullet match. I got 1968fps with a caseful of 860 under the 311284 some time back. I've got some IMR 7383 on order to fuel these spitzer adventures.

[Bullshop]

Have any of you considered the NEI 30/200 DD from Walt Melander? Its a very interesting design that shoots well. It has a much better BC than any design with a flat nose no matter how small the meplate. It is designed to keep all drive bands within the neck of a 308 case. We have it in inventory and can supply samples. It has become my most used 30 cal for long range shooting.

[Mark Daiute]

That bullet has a cleaning groove that should take care of your bore trash Mark. As long as you aren't leaving lead behind it should keep on grouping. I mentioned leading cause it appears that was my problem the other day when nothing would shoot worth a hoot. I forgot about firing several rounds at the end of the previous range session that had alloy blowing back on the case neck. I wanted to be rid of them, adventures in pulling cast bullets usually don't work out for me. I'm making a long adventure out of it Mark, day before Perry up to Ypsilanti for a cast bullet match. I got 1968fps with a caseful of 860 under the 311284 some time back. I've got some IMR 7383 on order to fuel these spitzer adventures.

That explains why the string of trash on the bottom of the bore and just ahead of the chamber ALWAYS looks exactly the same.

[madsenshooter]

This 365 bullet has an ample groove too. I'll have a couple chances to try an 80 round match before Camp Perry, just to see how far I can get before accuracy goes south. Big difference between highpower and cast bullet benchrest matches where they often clean after each group.

[Mark Daiute]

I've decided to move on, quit analyzing and to spend my time loading and shooting. I've worked just a little with kickers and have decided to move on. I'm a keep it simple kind of guy. 50 grains of 872 under the 311384 is shooting 3/4" groups at 50 yards. I just tried it again in the backyard and accuracy is holding. It leaves behind some bore-trash as someone called it. I've decided to not care about the trash.

[madsenshooter]

Me too, got lots of spitzers cast. The 39.5gr load of RL19 with the 203gr bullet is what I plan on using at Perry. I'll be trying other combinations of alloy and the smaller version of the bullet between now and then though. I just got a neat addition to my Weaver K6 installed on my cutoff 92/96.

[Mark Daiute]

what is the barrel lenght on that rifle. That is just plain too cool. I love it.

[madsenshooter]

24" barrel Mark. I just got the Litschert. It came with an adaptor that would only fit a 48 or 49 made K6. I had to make a .024 thick threaded ring to fit it to my scope. Kodiak Dreamount, Weaver K6 and the Litschert booster, which makes the scope a 12 power, were all from the late 40s, early1950s. In 1950 Weaver introduced scope models like their own 8 and 10 power scope with bigger lenses, putting a hurtin on Litschert. The adaptor has a Unertl lens in it. I've been seriously thinking for quite sometime of having the barrel of one of my full length rifles drilled and tapped so I can use this mount on it for load development. It only takes two holes between the existing sight holes.

[madsenshooter]

After much fussing with the Litschert, I finally made it to the range to shoot the "into the rifling" vs the ".1" jump" loads mentioned in post 26 above. In this rifle, that .1" jump equals a doubling of group size! The six shot 100yd group measures 1.5 tall x 1.3 wide. Load was 32.3gr of Russian 4895, bullet weighed 186gr. Seeing these results first hand, I'll be using the fatter nosed 316365 at Camp Perry, like I thought I would. I'm not about to fiddle with loading some into the rifling for slow fire, and some magazine length for rapid fire. I know, my results are just for this rifle, but I'd be willing to bet results would be similar with the full length barrel.

[Scharfschuetze]

Wow! Looks like you're tracking now. I'll look forward to reading about your trip to Camp Perry.

[madsenshooter]

Yep, I'm heading in that direction! My IMR7383 just arrived today. I'm going to start with a volumetric equivalent of the 39.5gr of RL19. That's 35.6gr of the 7383. I'll work up from there. Next experiment with the scoped Krag will be a comparison of the 316365 sized .311 vs .314, if I can even get the .314 sized round to chamber. It ought to, fired Rem cases come out with a .315 ID neck. I just don't know how good "through the barrel" sizing works!

[Mark Daiute]

Why the 7383 versus 860, 870 or 872?

Teach me oh wise one.

[madsenshooter]

I wasn't getting the groups I wanted out of a caseful of 860 alone. A boosted caseful of 860 was too much recoilwise and more speed than what I need. Boosting less than a caseful requires a filler of some sort. Dacron is ok, other fillers like shot buffer or Puf-Lon blow around, I've felt the grit hitting me in the eyes when shooting with the wind in my face, so fillers like those aren't something to use on a firing line. No doubt some inconsiderate louts do. Besides that, I've ringed the chamber on one of my Krags using Puf-Lon, don't want to ruin anymore.


The RL19 loads were in the ballpark for the 2150fps velocity I'm after, but pressure appears to be on the edge of what my alloy will take, so accuracy is less than I want. If I go with a harder alloy that will take more pressure, I don't have the weight I want to duplicate the Palma load. The solution appeared to me to be a powder slightly slower burning than RL19, like 4831. Just so happens that the 7383 was meant to burn at that rate. It was meant to replace, by volume, the 4831 once used in the spotting rifle of the 106mm recoiless rifle. So, I should be able to get approximately the velocity I want, with the little less pressure that my alloy needs, using it. I just got the jug yesterday, but have fiddled around enough to see, 40gr is about all I'm going to be able to get into a Krag case without compressing the powder, as it doesn't like compression, I've read here. With the bullet seated to the OAL I'm going to be using, I can feel the powder moving just a wee bit when I shake a round. How it'll work remains to be seen. If it works like I think it will, we might be able to call 7383 Krag powder. The powder is designed to burn efficiently at 38,000psi, though that's not the pressure I'm going for. That spotter round is smaller than a 50BMG round. I'll try to get some loaded for the sizing experiment before next week.

Hmm, it doesn't appear it was made to replace 4831, as that powder was never used in the cartridge, except for the proof round. It appears it was made to take up the same amount of space in the case as 4831 does, while working at a lower pressure and a velocity to match the 106mm round. The case will hold 110gr of 7383, or 143gr of 4831. I'd suspect the proof round uses a compressed load of the 4831. Let's see how the math works out. 110/143=.77. Lyman lists a compressed 52gr charge of 4831 as max for the Krag with a 200gr bullet. 52x.77=40 Further mathematical wizardy based on knowing that 143gr of 4831 produces 55,000psi in the proofround, and 110gr of 7383 produces 38,000psi, and that 52gr of 4831 in the Krag case will produce, at a maximum, 40,000psi (probably less), says that 40gr of 7383 should produce around 27,600psi, which somehow works out about right since quickload predicts 30,000psi with the 39.5 load of RL19.

Anyway Mark, it ain't 50BMG powder like 860, 870, 872, etc.

[RPRNY]

Yep, I'm heading in that direction! My IMR7383 just arrived today. I'm going to start with a volumetric equivalent of the 39.5gr of RL19. That's 35.6gr of the 7383. I'll work up from there. Next experiment with the scoped Krag will be a comparison of the 316365 sized .311 vs .314, if I can even get the .314 sized round to chamber. It ought to, fired Rem cases come out with a .315 ID neck. I just don't know how good "through the barrel" sizing works!

FWIW, I paper patch for my Krag, both the Lyman 311041 and the 311284, to .314, sometimes very close to .315. I paper patch to the throat as my Krag has a non-original barrel that slugs to .3095" groove, so theoretically, these are waaaaay overbite. Nevertheless, they shoot consistently better than ones patched to .312.

From this, I would infer that a boolit sized to .314 is going to fill the throat very nicely and with a Springfield Armory barrel, at least one of which I have slugged at .311, you may find a real shooter! Good luck.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for that tidbit. As long as I can shove them in there with little resistance for rapid fire, sounds like I should be good to go. The rifle I plan to use is .301/.310 bore/groove. You just convinced me to order a .314 size and lube die.

[Mark Daiute]

Bob,

I liked post No. 40. Very iluminating. I'm wondering now if I shouldn't have saved my cash until you were done. Of course that won't give me what I need between now and Perry which is time and practice.

I'm sitting on 4 jugs of 872 and 2 jugs of 5010. I'm happy with the results I'm getting but I have the dirty burn. Maybe you'll come up with a clean burning combination that will achieve the same or better than the loads I'll be using.

Lastly you are pursuing the lofty goal of replicating the Palma loads. I am not constrained by any goal other than getting the boolits to the target in the most precise manner as cheaply as possible. I admire what you are attempting.

When will you be testing the 7383? Can't wait to hear the results.

[madsenshooter]

I think you'll do just fine with what you got Mark and I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the dirty burn. Hopefully, you'll get to shoot enough to see if there's a point where it effects accuracy and if there is, it's beyond 35rds. Had I not taken this quest upon myself I'd have used up my RL19 then started with the caseful of 860, not worrying about speed, smoke or what's left in the barrel. I wish I could get a good load together duplexing the 860 and using dacron, cause Pat McDonald is less than 90mi away now. Shipping and hazmat nearly doubled the price of the 7383 to me from Bartlett, $100/7lbs. It would be worth the drive to McDonalds to get 8lb of 50BMG powder for $48. I haven't given up on the BMG powders yet, I'm just going a different direction for the time being, hoping things may be a bit more expedient for me. When I'll be testing depends on how long it takes some recently cast bullets to harden up, maybe by Fri.

[madsenshooter]

Got some new numbers to play with! Back in 68 4831 was used in the M48 spotter-tracer round, 120gr of it. That load was about 75fps faster than the 110gr load of 7383, and produced 3000psi less pressure. It's also likely the 4831 load produced a nice muzzle flash, hence the switch to 7383. After playing with the numbers it appears what I have bought as far as burn rate goes, is some long stranded, triple based RL19. That's ok, RL19 was working good, now I have more and an equal weight of the bulkier 7383 is more case filling. So, 110/120=.92, Nosler data for a 200gr bullet tested in a 30" Krag barrel says that about 44gr of 4831 will give me 2175fps or so. To calculate how much 7383 I'd need to get the same, .92x44=40.4gr, about 1gr more than what quickload says I'd need of RL19. Not much of a difference at all. 7lb/$100 doesn't sound so bad compared to what I'd pay for an equal quantity of RL19 at a nearby gunstore, if I could find it. Least I won't have to worry about muzzleflash giving away my position! It might not burn cleanly, that's the whole idea of the nitroguanidine and other inhibitors. Once the nitrocellulose has evolved the gases, said gases don't continue to burn, bound to make soot. Soot is ok, I just don't want any unburned powder granules.

[jrmartin1964]

For those who, like me, may be unfamiliar with the Hudson-Thomas bullet of 1907 Palma Match fame.
From the Annual Report of the National Rifle Association for 1907:
104540

And from U.M.C.'s 1908 Ammunition catalog:
104541

Jim

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for the pics Jim. I have loaded for comparison some of the 316365 sized .311 as I have been doing, and some sized .314, both over 40gr of 7383. I was surprised to find the .314 rounds chambered easily. I had some problems before with .312 bullets not wanting to chamber and had assumed .311 was my limit. Perhaps I had some overlength cases that was causing the difficulty. I've been wanting to get out for several days now, but whenever I think of going to the range I see rain approaching on the radar! Bad rain! LOL! That's all until the rain ends.

[frnkeore]

I found a 1927 American Rifleman at the gun show today.

The cover shows you where to register for the Camp Perry match :)

I also took a picture of one page (of 3) dealing with bullet fit and a 10 shot group of the "Thompson" type ammo.

Frank
107493
107494

PS
If you copy the text into your computor, you can enlarge it to read.

[madsenshooter]

The building has changed a little since 1927! I'm still working on this, boosting the 36.3gr of 7383 with 2.2gr of a high nitroglycerine powder, 10B101. At 2.5gr of 10B101/36.5gr of 7383 the load works ok out of the cutdown Krag I use for load testing, but its still overpressure for the alloy when shot out of my full length rifle. Must have a slightly tighter throat. Accuracy looks like it's going to be very good, but I have found it takes a few shots to get back to zero after removing my scope. POI shifts right and up for a couple shots, then it settles in. Looks like I might need a bit more tension on that mount! I can get that by moving the front ring forward some, but that means starting over!

[frnkeore]

Imagine the responce, requesting that info from Remington (or any other ammo mfg) today.

Frank

[madsenshooter]

36.3gr of 7383 with 2.2gr of 10B101 as a kicker is borderline, pressure-wise, for my alloy. 3/6 blew alloy back on the case. Despite that I got a 5 shot iron sight 100yd group that was 1.9wx1.0 tall. That's as good as or better than I've ever got with Nosler 168s! One more step down, 2gr of 10B101, 36gr 7383. My full length rifle must have a tighter throat, I can use a larger charge in the cutdown without going overpressure. I'm getting a little soot and noticed a couple partially burned grains left in the barrel, no big deal.

[popper]

I've been playing with the Cu alloy for about a year, never seen hat color change on the sized bands.

[madsenshooter]

I found the source of my three shots with higher pressure than the other three. I found a 3gr diff between the two groups of three cases. When I went to the next step down, the difference was more obvious, bigger groups spread further apart, but no blown alloy with either weight case. So now I'm weighing cases and gotta go back to the load that shot the nice group right at point of aim!

[madsenshooter]

Popper, I wasn't ignoring you, just had to remember. Those particular bullets got super heat treated! I fell asleep so they were in the oven nearly 5hrs before quenching! I keep it down to a couple hrs usually and they're just a bit grey, but still obviously darker than the rest of the bullet.

[popper]

That's OK, just curiosity on my part.

[madsenshooter]

Experiments with 7383 are hereby suspended, I'm loading rounds with RL19 in preparation for Camp Perry. I had hoped to shoot a 50rd match at a nearby club Saturday in order to establish a 200yd zero, but budgetary considerations won't allow it. i.e., I'm broke! I know I have a reasonable 100yd zero using a six o'clock hold, and after running some ballistic calculations, that ought to translate roughly to a center hold for 200yds. I see why they chose the 203gr bullet back in 1907, it's still supersonic at 1000yds even though it only starts out at 2150fps. I'll have some extra rounds to shoot 100yd groups with between now and Camp Perry. I decided to split the difference between the 38 and 39.5gr loads that I posted group pics of back in post #19 and go with 38.7gr, just a bit less than the 39.5gr that quickload said would give me 2150fps, for the warmer July temps. That may not give me the 2150fps I was after, but it's close enough to suit me..

[StrawHat]

Best of luck at Camp Perry. I am following this thread hoping for more insight into loading for the Krag.

[Artful]

thanks for posting your tests - good luck at Perry

[madsenshooter]

Thanks! There is that final test yet to go. I'm going to go shoot my cutdown Krag in a CBA match at Ypsilanti, MI a couple days before Camp Perry. I won't be using the Camp Perry loads at the CBA match, I may or may not be using the same bullet. Decisions, decisions...

[StrawHat]

Crappy weather up here today, I hope you are not shooting for a score.

[madsenshooter]

No, shot in good weather on the 20th. Only thing crappy was the score of 230-2X. Some hit right, some were unpredictably off, I know I was holding better. A better alloy is in order I think. So I'm not going to worry about duplicating the 203gr loading anymore. The good stuff gives me a bullet that weighs from 190-195gr that will handle the pressure and velocity better.

I agree, the weather was crappy on the 19th. I shot my unlimited garand in the rain, but did fairly good, finishing near midpack. Wind wasn't a factor in the morning, but it sure was drizzly.

[madsenshooter]

In retrospect, I don't think I was getting anywhere near the velocity that quickload predicted. The reason being, I had to raise the sight, which I had a good 100yd zero with, many more of the little 80 to the inch notches than what ballistics charts said I should have to, going from 100 to 200yds. The 100yd zero on the SR1 target, using a 6 o'clock hold was just shy of the 200yd mark. I should have only needed to go up 2-3 of the little notches to get on at 200, if the bullet was going the predicted velocity. But I had to go up 18 of the notches, up near the 400yd mark. Could be quickload wasn't dealing with the very much increased, full bore diameter bearing surface of the 316 version of the bullet vs the .311 version. I guess the only way to know for sure is to chronograph a few.

While at Perry I got some Federal GM215M primers, I'll see if they will fire the IMR7383 and eliminate the need for the kicker charge I used above.

[frnkeore]

In retrospect, I don't think I was getting anywhere near the velocity that quickload predicted. The reason being, I had to raise the sight, which I had a good 100yd zero with, many more of the little 80 to the inch notches than what ballistics charts said I should have, going from 100 to 200yds.

You do need to chronograph the load but, it could also be that the BC wasn't as predicted so, it could be a combiation of the two.

Frank

[madsenshooter]

Yea, I gotta get my electronic genius cousin to build me a chronograph. Some of it was the load, some me, some the fact that I tried to shoot with a cheap pair of red sunglasses. I have a longer sling coming too, I'm not comfortable with my head position using a sling with a 50" front strap.