Colt saa proper grip

[DrCaveman]

Ok, ill admit that this thread has nothing directly to do with cast boolits. But i am having a heck of a time finding answers to my question out on the interweb. I dont shoot CAS or competitively at all. My range is the woods by myself. I trust you guys more than any other group

I got a cimarron frontier 45 colt, 4.75" barrel. Pietta is written on bottom of barrel. This thing is a slick handler and very light and quick to point. Action is great (in my inexperienced point of view) and trigger pull is medium-heavy. Heavier than the single action drop with my s&w model 19 and ruger gp100

It's shooting a bit high and left but i am working on that and it may be due to the load. I seem to be finding that i am probably flinching and anticipating recoil so that may also be the cause. But maybe it has to do with grip too

In any event, i am having a hard time finding a solid firm grip that allows me the proper "pad on trigger only" position for my trigger finger. It always naturally settles into a place of comfort with the finger touching the frame right above the trigger guard. The part of the finger touching is just below the first knuckle, and this leaves the finger pad centered on the trigger. So i am totally touching the frame of the gun with part of my trigger finger.

In fact, the trigger finger seems to be providing some "squeeze" on the gun, and helps my stability while aiming (or so i think). But this cant be a good thing, right?

Ive tried a bunch of different grip positions, but none seem to deliver what i am thinking is right.

You really good colt saa shooters out there, how do you grip? And does your trigger finger contact the frame?

Thanks

[.22-10-45]

Hello, DrCaveman. I too don't shoot CAS..but was heavy into IHMSA back in the late 70's-early 80's. I find myself shooting the SAA Colt more often now. In working with a 2nd. gen .38 spec. 7 1/2"..I nearly made a big mistake altering the front sight to get it to shoot to P.O.A.. As is my custom, I first tried it of bench..wrists resting on sandbags only At 25yds. Gun was shooting low and to right..i'm talking lower bottom corner of 3' square cardboard backer! Tried ever heaver bullets to bring impact up. Then the o'l dim bulb finally flickered on. I tried standing two handed..same thing..then one handed arm extended..low and behold, windage was perfect..and P.O.I. was right on top of where front sight rested! Last year working with a circa 1905 Colt Bisley
7 1/2" in .38 spec. had same exact experiance. My hands are about med. in size, I find that just the front tip of trigger finger actually contacts trigger. Little finger is curled underneath bottom of grip frame.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I've been shooting Colt SAA's for years and have over a half dozen of them in .44 Special and .45. I too rub the trigger guard with my trigger finger in fact the bluing is worn from the rub while shooting on my most shot Colt's. Usually the SAA's came out of the factory with the point of impact to the left and lower than the point of aim. Shooters were expected to file off a little of the front sight and then turn the barrel until their pistol was zeroed. The new Colt's are zeroed right from the factory.

I wouldn't worry about trying to train your finger to doing something unnatural, and your trigger finger isn't pushing the gun to make the point of impact left of point of aim. Just shoot it the way you shoot it and get a load you like then adjust the sights so your gun hits for you.

One issued with fixed sights is you'll only have one load that's zeroed. The RN frontier 454190 will have a different point of impact than the Keith 454424. So decide which one you want to use go with that. Find a powder charge that feels right and adjust the sights to that load.

If your hitting high then you will have to go with a lighter bullet, having a gunsmith weld a front sight higher is ridiculously expensive. You can increase the velocity of your boolit to lower the point of impact too. Then just pay a gunsmith to turn the barrel to move the point of impact to the right.

If your SA hits too high for any load you want to shoot, then you are out of luck with that gun. Maybe somebody who owned it before you filed down the front sight too much and ruined it, and that's why they sold it. Use a dial caliper and measure the height of the front sight and go to the gunshops and buy another SA with a taller front sight. You'll be alright buying a SA with a front sight too high, just file it down.

Your point of impact will be different from the rest than from off hand so don't waste too much time on the bench. You'll probably find your most accurate loads are fast burning powder, but those powders are more likely to be double charged, and you may want more velocity. My favorite powder in the .45 Colt is Unique.

A real accurate boolit in the .45 Colt is Lyman's 452460 SWC 200 gr. It does not look authentic to the frontier seated on top of the cavernous .45 Colt case but it really groups tight on paper.

CAS shooters load high volume and shoot light loads, they shoot a lot. The .38 Special is a much better cartridge for them than the .45.

Your SA is a tough gun to win in the competitions that really matter -after a BBQ with friends knocking cans off fence posts. The guys with the GP100's and 586's are tough to beat with an iron sighted .45 horse pistol. But the .45 SA was designed for a light hip gun with a lot of penetration to be used on unruly animals. If you have to put a loco high bread cow down I'd hate to have a .357 on my hip. In an Indian war you can shoot the horse out from under him with a .45, but that hasn't been necessary since the turn of the 20th Century. Still I carry the SA in field, it's a great light black bear gun and I just like the SA better than the DA.

The grip on the SA is a factor, I like thick checkered grips like the Colt eagle hard plastic ones. I spent a lot of money on one piece walnut oil finished grips and loaded a cartridge with black powder, that muzzle rocked skyward violently upon firing. The Italian wood grips are finished in varnish which gives much better traction but are too small for my hand. I have large hands. I can't hook my little finger under the grip, it's uncomfortable but the great SA shooting writer Skeeter Skelton said he did it that way.

So enjoy, and make the gun work for you rather than the other way around. Don't be afraid to face the fact that you may have to eject the gun from your collection, if you trade it in, trade up.

[DougGuy]

If the trigger is stiff, that can really fight you in trying to hold the sights motionless while firing. The best way to learn to shoot a SAA accurately is by dry firing it and letting your eye take a mental "snapshot" of where the sights were aligned when the hammer drops. You can train your hands and your grip and your trigger finger to fire it while holding the sight picture constant but a heavy trigger will fight you.

As far as the load, you can get a lot of loads to hit point of aim, I call this "bringing the boolit to the sights." I have 6 or 7 loads that shoot to the top of the front sight blade from a 4 5/8" Vaquero. It goes like this.. The SAA recoils in your hand, the butt of the gun drops, and the muzzle begins to rotate skyward. Lighter, faster boolits will generally hit lower on the target, because they don't spend as much "dwell time" in the barrel as a slower, heavier boolit, before leaving the muzzle. Heavier boolits that are slower, spend more dwell time before they exit the muzzle, and the reason they shoot to a higher point of impact, is because the muzzle has had time to rotate upward a bit farther before the boolit exits. For this reason, most short barrel single action revolvers have a taller front sight than the same gun with a longer barrel, the taller sight is necessary because the shorter barrel guns have more muzzle flip and would shoot to a higher point of aim if the front sights were all the same height.

Take that Pietta somewhere or send it somewhere and get the trigger work done on it. It sure won't ever earn a favored place if it is only a mediocre shooter that isn't much fun to shoot.

[bedbugbilly]

Welcome to the world of shooting SAA! :-)

I have shot SA for many years - primarily C & B '52 Navies - even more primitive sights that what most folks think the SAA has. The rear is a hammer notch and the front a post. Right now, I have a Ruger NV in .357 - shoot 38s.

Anyways . . . as mentioned - try the "duelist" one hand hold and see how it works out for you. On a SAA, if shooting left or right, the front sight blade was sometimes "bent" to compensate. I'm not a big fan of that at all. As far as I'm concerned, on a SAA (or clone) - it's all about "learning your gun" and how it shoots - the trigger pull - the balance of it in your hand.

You certainly can "play" with your loads - i.e. bullet type & wt and powder charge. But once you get a cartridge load figured out that is pretty accurate for you - it then is time to practice - a lot. I have always found on a SAA that you have to learn a little "kentucky windage". If it is shooting a tad high and to the left consistently - aim a little low to the right, etc.

The grip itself will have a lot to do with your "hold". The SAA (in theory) only has "one size grip". If I remember correctly, your's is a one pice grip instead of two separate grip panels? Everybody has a different size hand and different length fingers. So . . . you have to develop a hold that works for you.

A different handgun but still a SAA clone - I hated the stock grips on my New Vaquero. The plastic grips had really pointy checkering that after a lot of rounds was like holding sandpaper. I took steel wool and rubbed the points down, hoping it would help - not only in my hold but POI as well. It didn't. My hands are on the smaller side. I came across a set of Eagle "gun fighter" wood grips which are a little thinner. I couldn't believe the difference. My grip was much more comfortable and relaxed - my POI improved greatly - coming back on target after a shot was much quicker and easier for me. Again . . . it's all about "what works for you".

I have see some pretty good pistol shooters that were brought up on "modern" DA revolvers - Smiths, Colts, etc. who have always used a two hand hold and they couldn't shoot a darn with a SAA. It's a whole different animal - different balance, different grip, etc. With practice though, I think anyone can shoot a SAA well if they will devote the time to practice and sort of forget what works with a DA Smith or Colt of newer design. Just my rambling thoughts . . . .

Good luck with your SAA . . . you'll get the hang of it and then wonder about all the fun you've been missing by not getting one earlier! :-)

[DrCaveman]

Thanks for the feedback. Im feeling inspired.

I am definitely not giving up on this gun anytime real soon... Ive only shot about 40 rounds so far, and was quite happy other than the high-left POI. I have a series of loads ready to shoot which range from 6.5 gr unique to 8 gr unique, behind the lee 255 rnfp. Im banking on the notion that running these faster will bring down the POI. Hopefully i can document the change in POI vs powder charge with pictures.

Im glad to hear SilverJackHammer say his trigger finger contacts the frame too. I guess i wont fret that for now.

Now off to the gun show, where hopefully some Unique and 45 colt brass are waiting for me!

[bob208]

before spending money on the trigger . remove the grips. take a pice of leather 1/8 thick and put it between the hammer spring and grip frame where the spring screws to the grip frame. it has worked on both of my saa clones.

[TXGunNut]

I too enjoy the "duelist" stance but I don't think that will help unless you work on your grip a bit. A high left POI often means your hand, specifically the lower part or "heel" of your hand is tightening as you pull the trigger. A high-left impact for a right-handed shooter is even called "heeling". A simple ball and dummy drill will reveal if that's your problem. Have someone load your revolver with one or more empty cases in the cylinder; live rounds in the others without you knowing which is which. Have him watch the muzzle carefully each time you fire.

[44man]

The secret to a SA is to hold low (little finger under the grip). You want as straight a line to the trigger as you can get with your finger. Hold very firm so the gun does not "roll." If it rolls you will get torque along with too quick a barrel rise.
Might be a problem with short fingers because YES the trigger finger can push the gun.
My friend has short, stubby fingers and he always misses left with any gun.

[DrCaveman]

Thanks for chiming in 44man...ive been trying to integrate much of your advice lately...longer range shotting, water dropping, creedmore (& variants). The main thing ive learned is that i have a ton of training to do. Muscle memory and rounds downrange. Im trying to focus more on each and every shot to identify errors

The pinky under the grip is what im trying today. It feels weird but i think i can get used to it. It does certainly put my trigger finger in better line with the trigger

My fingers are medium-short...we'll see how it works out. A 1911 fits me like a glove, with standard grips, for whatever that is worth

[44man]

Yeah, the 1911 is as close to a good grip as you can get. I love the things. But my friend even has trouble with them. I swear he has no fingers at all.
It is why grips are so personal.
You have to pull straight back on the trigger.
With my large hands I hate the Bisley and RH grips but I like the SRH and plow handles. Not to deter anyone but it is my hands, not theirs.

[35 Whelen]

I've almost finished off four cartons of large pistol primers (4,000) in a little over a year. 99.9% of these have been loaded into Uberti and Ruger SA's in both 44 Special and 45 Colt. When I started I just THOUGHT I knew how to shoot a handgun and since then have learned quite a lot. What follows is my experience, and what I've learned. It's not meant to be an end-all set of instructions.

First, I find almost no purpose in shooting from a bench other than to check accuracy of loads and maybe show what a handgun is capable of at long ranges (100 - 200 yds.). Unless you intend to cart a bench around with you in the woods, learn to shoot offhand and especially from a sitting position. I found a significant difference in points of impact from the bench to offhand or sitting positions.

Second, I've read before to rest the little finger under the grip, but find it very unnatural for me and does nothing to aid in controlling recoil. Also, when one puts their little finger on the grip, it lowers the position of the handgun deeper into the palm which in turn directs more of the recoil directly into the forearm which in turn decreases the amount of "roll" in the recoil a bit.

Third, the biggest mistake I see made with handguns is folks hold them with both hands then bend their wrists and elbows when they line the sights up with their eye. What this does is form a sort of triangle with the forearms. As such, the handgun recoils "crooked" in the hand, so to speak. I have a range at my house (the main reason I'm able to shoot almost 4000 rounds per year) and have seen this repeated time and again by friends and visitors who come here to shoot. The rear of the grip frame should make as much contact as possible with the palm of your hand. I found I shoot with infinitely better accuracy if I extend my arm almost fully, not quite locking my elbow and wrist. This requires the head be tilted or turned slightly so as to line ones eye up with the sights.

Fourth I used to just squeeze the juice out of the grips trying to steady the handgun and control recoil, but found it counterproductive. Too tight of a grip causes your muscles to tremor which causes the handgun to shake. After I became accustomed to the recoil and relaxed my grip somewhat, accuracy flourished.

Using the above described methods my trigger finger rubs the frame.

My educated guess is your Cimarron has the tiny V groove rear sight and the tapered or pinched front sight. Both these make a good sight picture difficult. I took two of my Uberti's to a machine shop and had the rear sight grooves open to 1/8". Now the sight groove looks like this:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/IMG_0327_zpsa77cabbc.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/IMG_0327_zpsa77cabbc.jpg.html)

With the factory front sight you'll likely find, even after mastering your revolver, that your POI is low. This will require working the front sight down and you'll likely end up down to a little thicker, and easier to see, point on the front sight. I finally just replaced the front sights on my Uberti's that had the tapered front sights.

Finally, you mentioned recoil. The Skeeter load certainly is nothing to sneeze at out of a 37 oz. revolver. My suggestion is to back off to 6.5 grs. of Unique with a 250 +/- gr. bullet. This load runs 825 - 850 fps out of my 4 5/8" Uberti and has proven VERY accurate out of grouping as small as 2 1/2" @ 50 yds. with my Blackhawk and even in the 6" - 7" range @ 100 yds. with my Uberti's. Shoot this then after you're accustomed to it, move up to the Skeeter load. If you find the 6.5 gr. load uncomfortable, try somewhere around 5.0 grs. of B'Eye for 750 or so fps. But my guess is after a few hundred rounds with the 6.5 gr. load, you'll be used to it.

When I started seriously shooting SA's 1 1/2 years ago, I was lucky to hit my steel 50 yd. target (7" x 12") one out of 5 times from the bench. Now it's no big deal to put 5 shots into it, offhand, over and over.

Hope this helps!
35W

[DrCaveman]

I wont bore you with the pictures i took of my 6" groups at 15 yds. Like i said, i still have a lot of work to do.

Good news is that the groups moved downward as i increased the powder charge (at least the "center" of the groups did). For now i am settling on 7.0 gr unique behind the lee 255, since it printed into the 3" target for most of my shots, and the misses were strung to the left. Heavier charges moved below the target, and the recoil got just barely to the point that i am not sure my grip was adequate to keep post-shot movement constant.

I used pinky-under-plowhandle all day. I was going to try the duelist grip but things were working so i stuck with it. This grip did allow me to get a straight purchase on the trigger with little to no contact upon the frame with my trigger finger. Since i have (temporarily) settled on a load, now i can mess around with the duelist grip.

Funny thing, i got inspired to try the single handed bullseye grip with my s&w 460V with the 5" barrel, and some stout loads. Best shots of the day, with that gun!

Thanks so far, everybody, and if any more experiences/opinions about the best grip technique for the SAA 45 are out there, please keep em coming!

I hope to post next with some 25 yd groups with my new load. Itll have to wait til next weekend though, probably

[DrCaveman]

35whelen

We were typing at the same time. Good stuff, and your final statement about the 7x12 at 50 yds is exactly where i would like to be. Thanks!

[GaryN]

What's all this talk about putting the little finger under the grip? Is that supposed to help accuracy? :kidding: I don't have a little finger on my right hand so it make no difference to me.

[Groo]

Groo here
As 44 man said , on a colt/clone or short grip ruger new vaquero, the little finger goes under the grip [ like when you use a short handle screw driver].
This indexes the grip so you are in the same place each time [like the hump on a DA just on the other end]
The finger rest on the trigger guard, the thumb on the hammer and the little finger under the grip.
In this hold the gun is uncocked but as you "push" to the target the thumb is brought toward the little finger, cocking the gun, and slips onto the grip.
The trigger finger moves to the trigger when the sights align .
This is done with one hand [ as it was intended to],
When the gun fires, the gun rotates,[ your wrist really ] and puts the hammer back close to the thumb for that quick next shot.
Don't try to fight the gun, that will change your POA as you get worn out or your hand sweats.
Much different than a DA.
I have a 3 3/4 41m from Andy Horvath that will not group from a bench at all but will put 5 on a quarter a 21ft inside when shot the "old way".
As to the front sight, if your gun is built like old time colts , it will hit 8+ inches high at 25 yds or so.
This is correct for the time.
The army was told to shoot at the " belly button" AKA belt buckle,.
This allowed you to hit out to a goodly distance . " gut shot BAD" [ you don't think the cave only used the big colts at 25 yds do you????]
One last hint, when you hold your single action out at arms length-before bringing it up allow your wrist to relax so bone holds to the barrel,
then raise it to eye level [ no combat crouth head held high] you may well find the sights align on there own....
Good luck and let us know.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Groo there, interesting you would say an old time Colt would shoot 8+ inches high at 25 yards. The SAA originally came from the Colt's factory with a front sight today referred to as the "small" front sight, then in 1901 the front sight was changed to what's referred to as the "enlarged" front sight. It's been reasoned that the small front sight was what the Army preferred as the Army used mostly the 230 gr Schofield cartridge. Colt changed the height of the front sight in 1901 to answer the public's request for guns with sights adjusted to the 250 gr boolit which the civilians preferred.

Another interesting fact is that Colt's sold more SAA's in the 10 years after the turn of the century than they did in the 20 years before the turn of the 19th Century.

[44man]

Very good posts so far and I agree to not hold so tight you shake, just very firm so the grip does not slip in your hand.
I shoot very large stuff and from a rest they twist my wrist but off hand the gun raises my arms. I never need a glove but some grips are so shiny and slippery, even a glove can't hold them. Don't stick your pinky under a grip on a sandbag either. When you come down out of recoil, the hand should be in the same place on the grip as you had it before the shot, NOT closer to the hammer.
The "roll" stuff was never true and should have died off but it still persists to this day. The reason was to get your thumb close to cock fast but that means you missed the first shot so why do you need a second miss?
I have a picture of a gun writer holding the gun wrong, his finger is 45* to the trigger and his hold is so high his wrist is bent. He has severe wrist problems. Yes the guns can harm you. Shooting from bags is the worst but loads need worked that way. But Creedmore is also very good without pain. Big revolvers are not toys. I see crazy rifle stuff too. A rifle can break your collar bone that will not heal, and tear the strands holding your heart in place. Revolvers have split heads wide open. Even killed a youngster that should have never been given the gun.
Those that shoot my guns are only told to "hold the thing tight."

[Silver Jack Hammer]

DrCaveman, I know you want to regulate the sights of you SA to zero and I agree you should, however while you are working on that you can set up targets at very close range and practice hitting. Use your single action from the low ready or practice drawing and firing. Don't go fast this isn't a speed drill or fast draw. There was no fast draw on the frontier, fast draw is a Hollywood creation. When coming up on target and firing up close at the 5 yard line use your sights. Go through the motions of the draw deliberately and use your sights to hit playing cards or 12 inch steel plates at 5 yards. Lead on steel is safe at 5 yards with eye protection, jacketed things are dangerous on steel, pointless in a SAA or anywhere else for that matter. Leave J-words the 6mm guys. I digress. As you practice shooting your SA up close you'll become smooth and smooth is fast, but trying to go fast will only slow you down as measured on a pro-timer, and it's dangerous. Make sure you don't cock the hammer until the muzzle is on target. At Thunder Ranch Clint Smith had us up close on the 5 yard line trying to put five (5) boolits in one hole, from the holster. Making a follow up second shot trains you in the technique of cocking and firing.

This bullesye shooting on playing cards at 5 yards is my common practice on a range day. Then at 25 yards I use two hands but up close at the 5 yard line I shoot one handed. At 100 yards with the Colt SAA I sit with my back up against an upright brace, draw my knees up and rest the Colt SAA between my knees. Recently a local range newsletter had a write up about me putting 5 shots in 5 inches at 100 yards dead centered with a Colt SAA while my son was next to me shooting his deer rifle.

A shooting buddy of mine says the SA is called a handgun, not a handsgun. I had gotten away from close range shooting practice until Clint Smith reminded me. Even Jeff Cooper said dangerous animals have to touch us to hurt us implying the importance of close range shooting.