38 Colt Short & Long - Need help / loading data from old manual for Bulls Eye?

[bedbugbilly]

As an intro - I reload and shoot for 38 spl primarily although I do reload 9mm and .380.

I am looking at getting an Uberti 1872 "open top" - 5 1/2" chambered in 38 Colt Long/38 Special some time in the near future. Because of that, I am looking at reloading some 38 Colt Short and Long for this particular revolver - primarily because they are "historic" and I need another "fun project" to play with. I have scrounged up the brass - thanks to a couple of members on here. Now, I need some loading data . . .

I primarily use Bulls Eye for my reloading and have some on hand to use for these rounds. BUT . . . in my "modern" Manuals - I find no suggested loading data for BE with either of them. I can't believe that BE wasn't used years ago for reloading these two cartridges as it would have been a very common powder that was available. The newest Lee Manual devotes all of one page to both the 38 Colt Short & Long - nothing as far as a BE load - Speers #14 has nothing.

Unitil I get the 1872, I will be using a S & W M & P in 5" and a Ruger New Vaquero .357 5 1/2" to do my load development. I am aware of the "bullet jump" in these cylinders but they still should work fine. I am only interested in coming up with a mild "plinking" round for the Short and Long - shooting up to a max. of 25 yards.

Does anyone have an old manual that list these cartridges and what is recommended for the min/max load of BE?

Here is what I'll be using.

38 Colt Short
small CCI pistol primer
Bulls Eye
120 gr TC or 95 gr RF (Lee molds)

To start with, a 120gr lead TC bullet from the Lee 356-120-TC mold. I use this in my 9mm and since they drop from my mold at .358, I use them in my 38 spl. as well. If this 120gr bullet doesn't work well, I'll probably get a Lee TL 356-95-RF to try. I cast out of "range lead" so I think they may be usable if I can get them to drop at .358 - or if they can be sized to that if oversize.

.38 Colt Long
small CCI pistol primer
Bulls Eye
358-150-1R (round nose) - cast from a Lee mold

I have googled for the above information and I have found some "I would use" . . . but I'd like data out of a Manual. The closest cartridge I could find in the Speers #14 was the .38 S & W. It lists a charge of Bulls Eye as 2.2 gr min - 629 FPS and 2.4 fr max - 693 FPS. That is with a 158 gr RN lead bullet.

The 38 S & W has a case dimension of .385 diameter X .775 length - COAL with RN of 1.065

The 38 Colt Short has a case dimension of .378 diameter X .762 length - COAL of 1.052

So . . . those two are "comparable" somewhat but I'd still like to know what the old manuals recommend? There is nothing comparable to the 38 Colt Long as far as a BE load goes other than looking at the 38 spl and cutting the load down - but, by how much for a min starting point since the .38 Colt Long case is shorter - thus increased pressure?


Before anyone gets too carried away about the Colt Short/Long - the Uberti 1872 open top has the standard .357 bore to it and the Short/Long casings are the same as the 38 spl. with the exception of the case length. The revolver is made for smokeless or BP.

I am going to be out "powder hunting" but who knows what I'll find as it is "iffy". I'd like to stick to the BE if I can - I'll also be looking for some Red Dot, HP38/Win 231, Unique and my old favorite BE - who knows what will be on the shelf as it's "hit and miss".

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks!

[texassako]

I have some short colt cases I used to load in a .357 when I was short on brass. I got tired of cleaning carbon fouling out of the cylinder. I can't help with a BE load, but Hodgdon has data for both cartridges.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks texassako. I looked there and there is nothing for Bulls Eye - others are listed but I'm interested in what the BE data is as that is what I have on hand and use. I'll keep those powders in mind though in case I can't find anything on BE - I might be able to get one of them when I go to look for powder. If you have any 38 Colt Short casings that you don't need anymore - let me know. I found some from another member here but could use some more. ThX.

Alliant lists nothing for either the 38 Colt Short or Long . . .

[mac60]

In John Donnelly's book Handloader's manual of cartridge conversions on pg. 288 there's some info on the .38 Colt long. it gives loading data with BE. With a 150 gr. RN 3.0/B'eye OAL 1.36" velocity 810 f/sec. Reducing that by 10% would be a good place to start. On pg. 289 he gives data for .38 Colt short, with a 130 gr. RN 2.1/B'eye with OAL 1.07" velocity 700 f/sec. once again reducing that 10% would be a good place to start. Now, I realize that this book is NOT a "loading manual" - I really can't imagine you going wrong with that.

[bedbugbilly]

Thankk you mac60 - that's what I was looking for and that gives me a good starting point - I might even reduce it a little more than 10% (say 15%) for a starting point. Greatly appreciate the help and information - thank you again! :-)

[mac60]

You're very welcome. Let us know how it turns out.

[rintinglen]

I have manuals dating back to 1953, and the only load I saw was for the 38 Long Colt Using the 358-242 125 grain RN over 3.0 grains of BE.
I think I might give a 130ish grain boolit a try. With a 150 grain boolit, I'd drop down to 2.6 grains of BE. That open-topped frame is not the strongest, so I'd be looking for a load that gave me 11,000-12,000 psi tops.

[WRideout]

I rolled up some 38 SC for my friend's top break pocket pistol. With the Lee 105 gr boolit, I use 2.0 gr red dot, and a Win SP primer. I discovered by accident that a dipper I had made of a .22 LR case soldered to a wire handle throws exactly 2.0 gr of RD. This is a very mild load; so far I have only shot it in my Mod 19 Smith, but it seems to work fine. I am using 38 spl dies, and don't crimp but it doesn't seem to matter.

Wayne

[jrmartin1964]

The latest Lyman/Ideal Handbook that lists .38 Short Colt is No.29 (from 1931):
.38 Short Colt, O.L.
Ideal Bullet Number: 358159
Weight of Bullet Grs.: 125
Bullseye Powder Grs.: 2.5
M. V. f.s.: 700
(NOTE: For those that don't know, "O.L." = Outside Lubricated, using a heel-base bullet with lube grooves outside the cartridge case - like the .22 Short, Long, and Long Rifle rimfires.)

In the same Handbook:
.38 Long Colt (U.S.A.)
Ideal Bullet Number: 35870
Weight of Bullet Grs.: 150
Bullseye Powder Grs.: 3.0
M. V. f.s.: 775
(NOTE: No.35870 is hollow-base and inside-lubricated)
(NOTE: in Lyman/Ideal Handbook No.31 (1936), and on through Handbook No.35 (1948, and the last Lyman/Ideal to list .38 Long Colt), muzzle velocity of the .38 Long Colt (U.S.A.), loaded identically as in Handbook No.29, was reported at 815 f.s.)

And
.38 Long Colt, O.L.
Ideal Bullet Number: 358160
Weight of Bullet Grs.: 150
Bullseye Powder Grs.: 3.0
M. V. f.s.: 775

A table of average ballistics from Remington from the same year (1931) gives the following:
.38 Short Colt:
125 gr. lead, black powder, 650 fps from a 6-inch barrel
125 gr. lead, smokeless powder, 710 fps from a 6-inch barrel
.38 Long Colt:
152 gr. lead, black powder, 860 fps from a 6-inch barrel
148 gr. lead, smokeless powder, 780 fps from a 6-inch barrel

Hope this is helpful
Jim

[mikeym1a]

I didn't see this until today, I have several old Ideal manuals at home with data in them, but I'm at work. If I can remember, I'll post what I find this evening.

[bedbugbilly]

I knew I was a "little behind the times" but didn't know this would go back to the 1931 Lyman / Ideal Handbook! LOL :-)

Thank you all for the great information - I'm copying it down and it's going in my reloading notebook! I mailed out the payment for the 38 L and S brass yesterday and today so that will be arriving soon. I'm going to get my dies ordered this weekend. I have a supply of boolits cast and on hand, ready to go. This is going to be fun!

This little project is also showing me how valuable old reloading manuals are. While the 38 Colt Short was intended for the early percussion Navy conversions and the Long for the later Colt Navy/Army service revolvers form the late 1800s and very early 1900s chambered for the 38 Long - the opportunity is still thee to experience these two historic cartridges but with the modern chamber/bore configurations. It will be interesting to see the performance of them with smokeless and then BP.

I greatly appreciate everyone taking the time to look this information up. It gives me good data to start out from. Appreciate the hint on the RedDot as well as what was used for a dipper - all great information. Once I get this project all figured out with the smokeless it will be time to try it with some black powder. I've never loaded any BP cartridges (I have shot BP for 50 years but not in cartridge) so that will be fun as well.

Thanks again everyone. Once I get going, I'll post some photos and let you know how it's working out! :-)

[44Vaquero]

BBB, My circa 1984 Hercules Reloader's Guide lists the following: .38 Long Colt 150gr lead 2.8 grains of Bullseye as Max load with a start charge of 10% less @ 2.52 grains.

If you are interested they also list loads for Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique.

[str8shot426]

I will check my 1970 lyman manual and post a pic. After work.

[mikeym1a]

I didn't see this until today, I have several old Ideal manuals at home with data in them, but I'm at work. If I can remember, I'll post what I find this evening.
I have mislaid my 1936 Ideal Manual. My 1942 Ideal Manual, #34, lists 3.0gns bullseye with a 150gr boolit for 815fps. it also lists a BP load of Kings Semismokeless, 13.3grs FFg, and that 150gr boolit. no MV listed. The 'Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions' lists a load for the .38 long colt of 3.0grs of bullseye & that 150gr boolit with a MV of 810fps. For the short colt, they list a 130gr boolit and 2.1grs of bullseye for 700fps. Hope this helps. mikey

[TXGunNut]

I think you'll find a nice plinking load somewhere between 2.3 and 2.5grs of BE. OTOH I'd be hard-pressed to resist loading up a handful with FFFg.

[mikeingeorgia]

Hey all, I know this is a somewhat old thread but it's at exactly the point that I'm looking for the info. I'm wondering how your loads turned out with the Bullseye, and did you ever get a chance to work up anything with RedDot? I have both of those powders available. I started looking into 38 Long Colt because I had some 38 Special brass that had minor cracks at the case mouth. Browsing through my Lee manual I realized that the 38 LC was just shorter. I ended up special ordering a case length gage from Lee ($18.98 shipped) so that I could trim the 38 Special brass down and use them as 38LC. I also bought some brand new Starline brass and made up some 150 gr lead round nose boolits. I've just been searching for the load data since finding specific powder is challenging right now.

[Greg]

Mikeingeorgia

Castpics has a copy of the 1987 Hercules Powder manual (predecessor of Alliant Powder)

In it you will find 38 Long Colt load data…

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Hercules_1987.pdf

[Outpost75]

In .38 Short Colt you can use START loads for the. 38 S&W (not Special) with the same weight bullet.

I have been using 2 grs. of Bullseye with a 148-grain HBWC bullet, seated out to 1" overall cartridge length. Reference Lyman Cast Bullet Gandbook, 4th Edition, p.253, 660 fps @ 10,200cup.

[.22-10-45]

I have a Kirst conversion cyl. in .38 long-colt fitted to a 1972 era Colt re-make 1851 navy .36 percussion revolver. 3.0gr. Bullseye is my limit..but only because anything heaver will shoot too high at 25yds. 2.5-3.0grs. Bullseye is very accurate with Rapine hollow base and shoots to sights.

[mikeingeorgia]

Thanks for the info. I found a 1983 edition of the Hercules book on eBay and the guy said it contained load data using Bullseye also so it's on the way. Do the bullets have to be hollow based? I have a Lee mold that will make .358-150gr RN bullets, would that do?

[rintinglen]

Thanks for the info. I found a 1983 edition of the Hercules book on eBay and the guy said it contained load data using Bullseye also so it's on the way. Do the bullets have to be hollow based? I have a Lee mold that will make .358-150gr RN bullets, would that do?
Depends on the barrel. The older guns had bores that run .375-.380 in the grooves, while later guns had the bores reduced to .357-.360. The larger bored examples need the hollow base or a heeled boolit to avoid leading and give decent accuracy. The smaller bored guns can use regular 38 special boolits.

I personally have never loaded 38 Short Colt, but have made up a few boxes of the long colt for an old Army Special that a friend of mine used to have. I used heel-type boolits that were purchased from a custom cast out fit. I think they were from an old Lyman 358-160 mold, but I can't recall now, if I ever knew.

Ideal made both hollow based and rebated heel designs. The hollow based boolits were inside lubed, meaning the lube grooves would be inside the case, while the Heel-type boolits were out side lubricated.

[mikeingeorgia]

The only barrel I have available for them is attached to a Ruger GP100. I had originally made up 5 test rounds using Lee's length of 1.320". It didn't quite seat deep enough to get to the crimp groove. When the Hercules Reloaders' Guide, 1983 arrived, it had a length of 1.310" which worked out perfectly. It also lists loads using Bullseye and RedDot. It lists a max charge of 2.8gr so I made up a few each of 2.5, 2.6, 2.7 and 2.8 of Bullseye. I was hoping to get them moving at 777 fps, which is what I've read was the original Army loading. After I get the Bullseye worked out then I'll go through it again using the RedDot and try to get them to have matching results.

[S.B.]

Interesting read. I own an old Spanish copy of S&Ws in .38 LC that I have considered loading with some Black Powder but, this opens up a whole new area for me.
Steve

[leadeye]

I load 38 LC for my Lightnings and older Colt army/navy revolvers. Due to bore size I use Hornady 148 HBWC and .7cc FFF BP for most. I've thought about using Bullseye or 231 smokeless loads in the Army/Navy guns with the same bullet, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Considered using heel based bullets, but was advised that I wouldn't gain any accuracy and the HBWC would be easier to make.

[Alferd Packer]

You can download a FREE pdf version on. the internet of Lyman's Cast Bullet Manual No. 3.
It will have loads for .38s in there using Bullseye powder for several bullet weights.
Just GOOGLE Lyman Cast Bullet Manual No 3:oops: