Ruger #1 ,405 win Load Workup.

[Clay M]

The .405 win will qualify as my favorite cartridge for now.I have a Hoch nose pore mould in 310 GC with three grease grooves.The bullets of Linotype were sized .413, my bore slugs .412 .Today I took the rifle out to my 100 yd range,and tested some loads I put together with Rel 7.

I used regular Fed 210 primers for all loads.Carnauba Red lube was used. I started out with 42 grs. The load was mild but the group for five shots measured about three inches.
Next I tried 43 grs and bingo nice round four shot group of 1 3/8" .One of the five shots was out of the group about two inches low. This could have been me, or possibly one of the Lyman gas check didn't stay on that bullet.I will weight each bullet for the next load test.

Next I tried 44 grains and started picking up leading at the last three inch of the barrel. The group was wild.

So I have nailed it down to 43 grs and next I will try four different brands of primers with this load next.

I believe with 43 grs of Rel 7 I am getting close to 2000fps. I will chronograph the loads next time I shoot.

Then I will move on to H4895 and try that powder.
I am happy with the results so far.

[35 shooter]

I love it when i can hone in on a load quick like that. I was wandering through a manual the other night and took a good look at the 405. I was impressed with the ballistics with a fairley heavy boolit and the resulting pressures it listed. Looks like from the book it ought to be an excellent cast boolit rifle.

[Gemsbok405]

Bullet pic please...

[Clay M]

Bullet pic please...

I will try to get a pic up, but the bullet has a bore riding nose (.405) with a .280 flat nose.It has a front driving band with three average sized grease grooves.

This load should work well in my 95's too.

The next trick will be to see if I can get the load to work with 80%ww and 20% Lino, water dropped.

[Gemsbok405]

I have found the Ruger(s) need to settle down from a cold / clean barrel. The first shot most always goes high and throws the group. Also, it needs about 3 shots to warm up barrel and get some lube residue into barrel.

With large bore and moderate heat, after 3 shots does not get much warmer and POI remains good.

43 gr of Rel 7 would est to get about 1700 fps, and has a very mild recoil as have found. You would achieve very similar with IMR-3031 at same charge. With medium burning powder at moderate loads (80% load volume), there will always be some velocity spread due to powder position. I prefer a slower powder in range H-4350 at about 55gr with 322 gr GC bullet, and closer to 57gr with 300gr - giving 100% charge capacity. The slower powder also gives a longer / slower shove, and is not as hard on CB's. There is more muzzle blast in this instance, but the increase in charge mass add's to pressure and better burning... Said 4350 charge would be under 40000psi and is far as likely to want to go with a 1895

I do find that the .405 has shallow grooves, about 0.0035, and water dropping cast (WW) bullets give a lot more tensile to outer surface. If consider that most .375 rifles have 0.005 grooves, this is huge difference.

[Clay M]

I did notice a marked difference in recoil between 43 grs of RL 7 and 44 grs.Also more muzzle blast.As I stated the leading picked up at 44 grs. I have had good luck in the past with IMR 3031 and H 4895 .The Fed 210 primers always seems to be a go to primer.
I am just please that I got a nice round group with this #1 which indicates that no forearm work will be needed.

On the flyer, I did wait too long to fire that forth shot.

In the past I have chronograph five shots 50 grs of IMR 3031 with a 300 gr GC bullet at 2056fps avg with an ES of 23 and a Std Dev of 10.
This was out of a 95 win.

REL 15 and TAC are also powders that have been used with good results with jacketed bullets. I have no real hope of getting any TAC.

[Gemsbok405]

The Ruger 1-H tropical has a much thicker barrel than 1-B profile etc, so the fore-end hanger is most likely already tensioned and does not need a small shim for accuracy. But would epoxy bed the hanger/bolt into the fore-end wood to restrict fore/aft play and control the pressure on the action/wood face (under recoil) to fine tune accuracy...

While Rel7 is a very fine powder for 38-55 & 45-70 with CB's, the J-bul loads in these cal's (with Rel7) run high pressure - as with the 375 Win load all the way to 50kpsi, way to much for CB's.

Would suggest that at the 44gr level, the pressure curve is a bit harsh, and bullets are not gripping (shallow) grooves firmly, and with bullet groove skid, is cause for shotgun patterns...

The slower push from 4895 or Rel 10x would likely solve the above problem.

Also to be allowed for is that the 405Win and 45-90 have very similar case capacity / bore volume relationships, and are really "express" cartriges and will work better with slower burning powders. Best CB accuracy will likely be with 100% load fill of 4350 type powders...

[Clay M]

The Ruger 1-H tropical has a much thicker barrel than 1-B profile etc, so the fore-end hanger is most likely already tensioned and does not need a small shim for accuracy. But would epoxy bed the hanger/bolt into the fore-end wood to restrict fore/aft play and control the pressure on the action/wood face (under recoil) to fine tune accuracy...

While Rel7 is a very fine powder for 38-55 & 45-70 with CB's, the J-bul loads in these cal's (with Rel7) run high pressure - as with the 375 Win load all the way to 50kpsi, way to much for CB's.

Would suggest that at the 44gr level, the pressure curve is a bit harsh, and bullets are not gripping (shallow) grooves firmly, and with bullet groove skid, is cause for shotgun patterns...

The slower push from 4895 or Rel 10x would likely solve the above problem.

Also to be allowed for is that the 405Win and 45-90 have very similar case capacity / bore volume relationships, and are really "express" cartriges and will work better with slower burning powders. Best CB accuracy will likely be with 100% load fill of 4350 type powders...

Thanks for the information. What you are saying makes sense as I have gotten higher velocities without leading using the 4895.For some reason the rifling on the .405 does look more shallow than my .45/70 #1. I might also be better off sizing the bullets .414 instead of .413

[Clay M]

I have worked on a sequence of loads for the .405 win using H4895 (47,48,49,and 50 grs) As soon as the weather permits I will take these loads to the range and report back.According to the Lyman cast bullets Manuel, RL 7 has some of the lower operating pressure in the .405 win.Nowhere in any of my loading data have I found anything suggesting the use of 4350 in a .405 win so if any of you want to try that you are on your own. You didn't get it from me.

[Clay M]

I had no luck with the H4895 loads.I will once again try the 43 grs of RL 7 and this time I will use four different brands of primers.I will also try and chronograph this load ,but according to the Lyman and Hornady manuals it should be between 1900-2000 fps.
That will be satisfactory as a hunting load for my purposes.

I am reading Theodore Roosevelts autobiography. I was thinking today how much he would have loved this Ruger #1 in .405 Winchester.

[Gemsbok405]

Would like feeback on H4895 performance, as 43 gr Rel 7 = 47gr H4895 approx...

Are you using a crimp die, find the Lee FCD can crimp the case nicely onto the front driving band.

What is rifling clearance from front band engaged vs. at seating depth

Had a look at Hoch 375 GC mould, and looks nice, is this same as the 41-310GC profile?

http://www.hochmoulds.com/images/rif_377270.jpg

Question as to mould, is the nose diameter ahead of front band 0.400 (450/400) or .405 (405 Win). With longish nose, this may be a critical measure as some form of bore riding nose would be needed to stablise bullet.

[Clay M]

[QUOTE=Gemsbok405;2741484]Would like feeback on H4895 performance, as 43 gr Rel 7 = 47gr H4895 approx...

Are you using a crimp die, find the Lee FCD can crimp the case nicely onto the front driving band.

What is rifling clearance from front band engaged vs. at seating depth

Had a look at Hoch 375 GC mould, and looks nice, is this same as the 41-310GC profile?

http://www.hochmoulds.com/images/rif_377270.jpg

Question as to mould, is the nose diameter ahead of front band 0.400 (450/400) or .405 (405 Win). With longish nose, this may be a critical measure as some form of bore riding nose would be needed to stablise bullet.[/QUOTE

None of the H4895 loads shot better than about three and a half inches.

I use a moderate crimp with the RCBS dies since it is a single shot.

I am crimping with the front driving band out of the case, so I haven't tried to seat the bullet out into the led,
but I believe the Ruger has a fairly short throat.

That Hoch bullet it not like mine. I sent Dave an old style bullet and he modified it to make what I wanted. The nose is .405

I did get a great group with the 43 grs of RL 7 .No leading at all with that load. The leading seems to really pick up at around 2000 fps but only on the last two inches of barrel.

[Gemsbok405]

Would still like to see pic of bullet...

Having a crimp groove in effect splits the front band, and may limit the amount of rotational torque that can be tolerated by the narrower band... without slipping on engraving. This may be cause of 'shotgun' patterns!

Using the factory crimp groove, designed for 1895 magazine rifles, may also increase the jump to the lands. This in combination, with split front band, may be accuracy limiting factor at higher loadings?

Is there any sign of bullet lube spray out of grooves at muzzle?

The huge difference in recoil when going from 43 to 44gr of Rel7 should not happen in normal course of events...extra 40-45 fps should not be able to feel. This could suggest a 'twin peak' of pressure(s) with initial peak on firing, and then with jump of freebore / gap to leade, a very much higher pressure due to more exposed propellant and greater flame area over propellant. This secondary peak could be causing major instability of the bullet into throat?

[Clay M]

There is no crimp groove on this bullet. I stated it wrong, just the front driving band and three grease grooves and bands. I may try seating the bullet out to engage the lands.
I believe I found a good load with the 43 gr of RL 7 .It will be interesting to see if different brand primers effect the group. I also think that sizing the bullets .414 instead of .413 may help,but the gas check will not be pressed on as tight.

[Gemsbok405]

try seating the front band 0.115" proud of case mouth, good fit for a SAAMI chamber.

[Clay M]

Beautiful day at the range.The results were very informative and somewhat perplexing. I chronographed the 43 grs of Rel 7 .The average velocity was 1967 fps with the 310gr GC Hoch bullet.
I tried Fed 210 ,Win LR and Rem LR primers. The best group came from the Rem LR primers. 1.3" for four shots at 100 yds with a flyer that was out of the group by two inches. Here lies the problem. I found a nice gas check shaped chip out of the top sky screen. Some of the gas checks are coming off the bullet as it exits the barrel. So if some stay on and some come off this can cause fliers.Not sure what I can do about it since Lyman was the only company that I am aware of that made the 41 caliber gas checks ,and they are clip on .Bummer ... but I do think the Rem 9 1/2 primers are the best with this load.I did seat the bullets out one grease groove. Not sure if that actually made any difference.

[Gemsbok405]

The gas check is a pain to sort out. If cut bullet shank for the .410 GC ( 41 Magnum revolver), may not fill out to side of grooves. This may have been reason for leading with heavier charges...

I have often wondered if the 1-H barrel (sling) band is fitted undersized and heat expanded onto barrel. This may cause a small swage of the bullet when passing through "constricted" section of barrel at this point? The front sight band is also know to "crimp" the barrel at muzzle...but here is claimed to improve accuracy for cast bullets...

If cut the mould for the .416 GC, have to swage it down onto bullet in lube sizer. Also have to anneal before use, to prevent spring back...and dropping off shank?

As a matter of interest, which sequence was the 9 -1/2 primers? I have found best accuracy after have fired 5-10 bullets down the barrel...

[Clay M]

The Rem primers were the last five shots out of a twenty rd box.I was also more careful to wait and let the barrel cool between those shots. The Win primers put two shots touching, and then two more shots touching about three inches apart in a vertical string.

[Gemsbok405]

The expected norm is about 2-4" high for first shot(s) at 100m from a clean barrel. I have had similar instances where first two shots are very close at high POI, and then settle down to normal impact after a few shots. In fact, shot #3 often starts 'walking' down the target. From sequence15 to 20, the groups tighten up very well, and a shot every 30 sec or so does not get the barrel very hot... with large bore rifles and moderate powder capacity.

I do believe said POI variance is more related to the bullet lube coating the inside of barrel, more than temperature related.

[Clay M]

Next loads will be 50 grs of IMR 3031 I have chronographed this load at about 2050 with a fairly low Std Dev and extreme stread. The only way to solve the gas check problem is to buy a new mold.
I am probably going to order this mold from Tom. That way I can use the Hornady .416 crimp on gas checks.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=41-325B-D.png

[Gemsbok405]

Yes, nice looking mould, but more suited for the Win 1895 with its magazine LOA limitations.

For a single shot, don't need a huge crimp groove, as can use a LEE FCD to get rid of case belling and put a nice tension grip onto the front band. With extra bearing surface could get wider bands or perhap an extra lube groove, would not do any harm at 2000 fps++

The major issue I see with this mould is that has a substantial bore ride. While fine with the strong camming action of the 1895, would likely find that the "human mark 1 thumb" may struggle to overcome any build up of bore residue in any single shot such as Ruger #1 or Win 1885, when loading a fresh cartridge...

Also the lack of a bore ride "shoulder", would prevent the next bullet from sweeping the unburnt powder residue ahead of the bullet and out the muzzle. Any unburnt grains would be crushed into the bullet's bore ride or transition / taper from bore ride to front band.