Interesting problem at the range with new cast boolits. New for me.

[RacingRedGT]

Well I went to the range to test out my newly cast boolits. New to casting, not reloading. Never had this happen before. Ive been loading commercial cast for my S&W 629 44mag since Ive owned it, so Im used to crimping on cast boolits. This is a first for me. All bullets were crimped with a 1/2 turn on a Lee FCD. I was working up loads in 2gr increments, this happened on my 3rd test batch (14.4gr of Blue Dot). Bullets are from the Lee 2 Cavity 240gr TL mold. Alloy is COWW, tumble lubed with 45/45/10 and UNSIZED.

The crimp is still there. If you zoom in you can still see it. This really freaked me out. I shot two rounds, went to fire another and the trigger would only go half way. I was like WTH?? Looked down, everything looked OK from a quick glance. The previous round fired just fine, no squib. So I tried to cock it to manually rotate it to go SA, it was a no go. Hammer barely moved. Inspected again and noticed this. Somehow the boolit worked its way out far enough to prevent rotation. I had to shave the tip with a razor blade to get it out.

101704

101705

[Love Life]

Crimp them harder next time. Your bullets are jumping crimp. Now if you can find one of the ranch dog 44 mag collet crimp dies...

[RacingRedGT]

There was some excessive leading also. Ive been shooting 430 size bullets for a while without leading with pretty good accuracy. I have not slugged the barrel yet though. Since it was my first time shooting my own cast, Im going to throw on a little more lube. I have a feeling I did not apply enough. I also sized some through a Lee 430 sizer to see if that will help.

[RacingRedGT]

Crimp them harder next time. Your bullets are jumping crimp. Now if you can find one of the ranch dog 44 mag collet crimp dies...

I was gonna try that too. Like I said, never had a crimp issue before on commercial. This is a whole new ball game though. Gonna have to go back to the drawing board.

[Love Life]

Are you using a roll crimp?

[RacingRedGT]

Are you using a roll crimp?

Yes. Im using the Lee 4 die set. The seating has a built in Taper, but I back the die out. I use the FCD (roll).

[btroj]

Not enough neck tension either. That is what hold the bullet in recoil, not the crimp. Try a smaller diameter expander, less expansion, or a different lube. Having lube on the entire bullet shank like you have means the bullet doesn't have as much friction to hold it in the case.

[RacingRedGT]

Not enough neck tension either. That is what hold the bullet in recoil, not the crimp. Try a smaller diameter expander, less expansion, or a different lube. Having lube on the entire bullet shank like you have means the bullet doesn't have as much friction to hold it in the case.

That makes sense. I add backing the expander die out a little to my testing.

[btroj]

I have even used a 44 expander for heavy loads in my 45 Colt.

[Love Life]

If you look at pictures of my loaded rds (They're floating around the forum) they kinda look like a snake swallowed a mouse.

[freebullet]

I don't see any lube or crimp that could be an issue.

[RacingRedGT]

I don't see any lube or crimp that could be an issue.

Should the lube be visible? I was under the impression that less is more from the 45/45/10 thread. They all felt waxy to the touch. I was going to do an extra coat on the next test rounds.

As far as crimp is concerned, I'm taking it that more is better also with casting. Does that apply with both tumble lubed and hard lubed? Or is more for tumbled? 95% of my reloading has been jacketed or plated where not a whole lot of crimp is needed. Heck, on my .223 rounds I almost never crimp. I do taper crimp all my semiauto handgun rounds though.

Thanks for all the replies and feedback.

[Love Life]

I would just roll with straight mule snot. Worked like a charm in the 454.

[DougGuy]

Crimp them harder next time. Your bullets are jumping crimp. Now if you can find one of the ranch dog 44 mag collet crimp dies...

Lee still has the collet style die in stock: http://leeprecision.com/44-magnum-custom-carbide-factory-crimp-die.html

I really like these collet crimp dies but they work better with a little tweaking: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

[Vulcan Bob]

Hey there, I use the Lee factory crimp die for my .430" diameter cast boolits. After adjusting down to the case mouth one full turn down (Lee calls this a full crimp) holds my full house .44 Mag load boolits in place. Mid range .44 mag loads and .44 Special I use 3/4 turn down with good results. Lots of good info so far, good luck!

[gray wolf]

Someone needs to post a pic of a correctly crimped case, Sir your picture shows no crimp that i can see.
Roll the edge of the case in so that a finger nail will not ( or hardly ) catch on it.
Also the Lee FCD may be reducing the bullet size and loosening the hold on the bullet ( maybe )
You may need to omit that for the lead bullets and seat and crimp in two operations, you can do it with the seating die. Also the expander for the jacketed bullets could very well be to small for lead bullets.
Just some thoughts.

[1bluehorse]

When you run your loaded round up into the LFCD do you "feel" the case rubbing the carbide insert at the bottom of the die? If you do, unscrew the die from your press, remove the lock ring, then throw the die in your garbage can....you can seat and crimp with the seater die, works just fine...and I agree with the above post that 1/2 turn on that die is no where near enough crimp for a "heavy" mag load....

[44man]

Not enough neck tension either. That is what hold the bullet in recoil, not the crimp. Try a smaller diameter expander, less expansion, or a different lube. Having lube on the entire bullet shank like you have means the bullet doesn't have as much friction to hold it in the case.
This is the answer. Lube is a big problem if slippery. With proper case tension you only need a moderate roll crimp even on a .500.
Use a good lube like Felix.
Just roll the crimp to the bottom of the groove and no more or you can break case tension. Toss the FCD. It can squeeze the brass against the boolit, then it expands away.
I shot factory cast loads in the .454 with extreme profile crimps and had boolit pull issues while my loads at max did not move.

[DougGuy]

Someone needs to post a pic of a correctly crimped case, Sir your picture shows no crimp that i can see.


I see no crimp at all. The round on the left I can see down into the mouth of the case..

The two rounds on the right in this photo are of a roll crimped case holding a 310gr RF boolit. The roll crimp in this case is about as heavy as you would want to go with it, but then again it has to hold back a 310gr boolit so between the case neck tension and the crimp, they both have to be about as much as you can get.

The two rounds on the left in this photo are the same 310gr RF boolit. The crimp is from the Lee collet style factory crimp die that I modified in this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg.html)

[44man]

101773All have too much crimp. The boolit can not open them without being sized either. The roll crimps show a bulge below the crimp that can ruin tension.
These are proper crimps, .44 with a 330 gr boolit, .475 with a 420 and the .500 with a 440 gr.

[DougGuy]

Those are also a very soft alloy. If there is any sizing down on the part of the crimp, it certainly has no effect on the seal in the bore, this is the load that wants to shoot ragged little one hole groups with NO leading. I could not tell any difference in POI with the roll vs. collet crimp.

[44man]

You must be careful with Lee boolits using chicken scratch grooves. They need LESS crimp then any other boolits. I shoot the Lee 310 all the time at a good load of 296 without any moving. Case tension is what is needed, crimps will not save you and can make things worse.
Just why would you crush into the boolit?

[DougGuy]

Because it works..

[44man]

Those are also a very soft alloy. If there is any sizing down on the part of the crimp, it certainly has no effect on the seal in the bore, this is the load that wants to shoot ragged little one hole groups with NO leading. I could not tell any difference in POI with the roll vs. collet crimp.
You depend on secondary expansion to seal. First you ruin "FIT", then ruin the grease grooves with slump. I don't buy it. You have to be damaging the boolit. The 330 gr I showed will do this at 200 yards.
Explain what distance you get a ragged hole. Kind of crazy to get 1-5/16" at 200, isn't it?
I don't want to get in an argument over this but the dies you use can ruin accuracy very fast. I found Hornady dies are as accurate as my special BR dies on the .44. They give the best tension but might not be right for soft lead. They take a hard boolit best. I water drop WW boolits. No need at all for soft boolits in the .44 for hunting. Tons of deer has shown the caliber is best. My go to for deer when I want meat. The Lee 310 is a super boolit, cast hard. I use 20 to 22 BHN.

[DougGuy]

Well, no argument here for sure. Your loads have always been about textbook perfect from what I have seen. Not knocking that at all sir, and a sub 2" group at 200 yards IS crazy! How many feet of boolit drop are we talking about now? I know my SBH shoots good but I doubt I could do that with it.

As far as distance, I rarely even shoot 50yds, I prefer to sight in close because that's more in line with the shots I am going to get on game in the woods. You live in Virginia, you know what kind of woods the deer like, you are lucky if you can even SEE 50yds in a lot of places. I hunted for many years right up the road from you in Rockbridge county, and I took more deer by far with my .44 than any other gun. Most shots were shooting down on them out of my treestand.

I don't crimp that heavily on hard cast. You would probably break the press before you would get that much crimp on a water dropped WW boolit, or even ACWW for that matter.

[243winxb]

Ive been shooting 430 unsized bullets Undersize diameter bullets (less than 430) producing light neck tension. Different alloy = Different diameter. Plus with all the lube grooves, there very little contact of bullet to brass. Add some antimony to increase diameter & buy a lube/sizer.

[44man]

Back to the OP, see the boolit showing through my brass, you can see GG's too. Tension! Little crimp. Just enough to hold a boolit under recoil and no more.
Guys here know I am crazy and yes, my best group with a revolver was 2-1/2" at 500 yards. I also shoot them to 500 meters (547 yards). Back in 1956 I was hitting targets at 400 yards with the S&W 29 and the flat top Ruger, I took hair off a running chuck at 550 yards with the flat top and open sights. There is no limit. I fully believe you can hit at 1000 yards with the right hold over. The S&W can do 1/2" at 50 yards all day. So can a SRH, the SBH not as good but the SBH Hunter has done it.
Seven yard to 25 yard shooters do not know and neither do soft lead shooters. You get super accuracy with jacketed but think dead soft can match that. Not to be!

[RacingRedGT]

Wow. Come back here after work and the thread took off pretty good.

Heres an update after gathering some data from you guys.

I resized some brass, then adjusted the expander die to where is just barely flares. Just enough for the bullet to rest on top. I was able to push the bullet in by pressing it against my work bench with my fingers.

Then I resized the brass again. Backed out the expander die just a smidge, then seated the bullet with the die. I was still able to push it in farther by hand. Took a lot of pressure but I was able to.

Resized one more time. Expanded, seated, used a full turn on the crimp die. (It was extremely noticeable this time). I used all my might to push the bullet in further by hand and it didn't budge. I used my calipers to compare before and after.

Also I did notice after using the full crimp the bullet was swagged down to .426-.427. It was exactly .430 before seating. The bullets after seating without the full crimp measured .4285-.4295. Still sized down a little but not as much as the full crimp. I use a kinetic bullet puller.

My Lee FCD die doesn't not rub against the case. Only resistance is during the actual crimp. Even on the down stroke there is no resistance or rubbing.

How badly are gas checks needed for 44mag? My loads should be around 1000FPS based on the data Ive gathered.

Before I invest in other dies, is there anything else I could be looking at to help the neck tension? Should I try water dropping some bullets to see if my lead is too soft? I did the pencil test. It came out around 3B/2B which seemed typical for COWW.

My .40 rounds came out fine (Lee 6 cavity 175gr, NOT Tumble Lube mold). I fired 60 rounds during testing. I did have some leading (could be lack of lube). Made another test bullet for neck tension and with my 1/4 turn crimp I could not even budge the bullet, neck tension appears to be fine with those dies. I will say I had the some of the best grouping Ive ever had with this gun (Beretta PX4 .40 Full Size INOX). I don't think Ive ever shot jacketed or plated that good before.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[fredj338]

Not enough neck tension either. That is what hold the bullet in recoil, not the crimp. Try a smaller diameter expander, less expansion, or a different lube. Having lube on the entire bullet shank like you have means the bullet doesn't have as much friction to hold it in the case.

Yes & no. A taper crimp can NOPT possibly hold a bullet in place but a proper roll crimp, into the crimp groove or over the driving band, does indeed help keep a bullet in place.
To the OP, really, working a load up in 2gr increments is crazy, even with BlueDot or other slow powder. Think 0.3gr increments max. Some powders get really weird when you cross the max pressure threshold. You said unsized but what size are they? If less than 0.430", there is little neck tension going on, unless you turn the expander down 0.001"

[RacingRedGT]

Yes & no. A taper crimp can NOPT possibly hold a bullet in place but a proper roll crimp, into the crimp groove or over the driving band, does indeed help keep a bullet in place.
To the OP, really, working a load up in 2gr increments is crazy, even with BlueDot or other slow powder. Think 0.3gr increments max. Some powders get really weird when you cross the max pressure threshold. You said unsized but what size are they? If less than 0.430", there is little neck tension going on, unless you turn the expander down 0.001"

I must of typed it wrong in the original post.

I started at minimum. 14 to 14.6 in .2gr increments. Max was listed @ 15+ from a few sources. I don't mess with max loads unless accuracy calls for more of a charge. Lyman 48 and 49 had the most data.

Bullets are at .430. It's what I've been shooting commercial cast at with very minimal leading and good accuracy.

[243winxb]

The expander diameter should be about .427" If not, get some emery paper and turn it down. If that doesnt help, try different brass. Thin case wall may be a problem. After that, the FL sizing die may be defective. Expander not 44. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/expander_1.jpg Or if a powder funnel type. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/DillonExpander2.jpg

[RacingRedGT]

The brass is starline. I measured the expander die. It measures at .4275 until you get to the top where it flares.

[MtGun44]

Is that wonderful FCD wiping out the neck tension?

Bill

[bruce381]

get a real roll crimp die throw away the lee FCD that will ensure you are NOT sizing down the boolit after it is seated. You stated this is the case so dump that die. Kinda related I had similar problem with a lee carbide 45 acp the sizer.

Even adjusted to where it hit the shel plate I could still push a boolit into the case when pushed in the side of work bench.

I bought a dillion carbide and then the case tension was perfect. No matter the caliber I want all my handgun rounds to pass this.

So maybe a new sizer will also help

[DrCaveman]

I dont know much but i am with 44man on water dropping the boolits to make them harder. It has helped leading and groups in all my larger calibers. That is of course presuming that you eliminate whatever is making the boolits swage down so small

I used to think my lee fcd was awesome for 357 and 45 acp. Then i tried NOT using it and things immediately improved. Then i just had to get a few simple crimp dies to round out the replacement, and things are better than ever. I like the redding profile crimp dies but i havent really tried much else besides lee FCD or seat/crimp dies.

[44man]

The expanders shown look good. The expander portion on the Hornady is about 3/8" long so the base of a boolit is going into brass that is not expanded, the reason for a harder boolit.
Be careful of profile crimp dies, many over size boolits will not go through them. If you can't slip a boolit through from the top, don't use it, just use the roll crimp in the seat die. I seat and crimp in one operation, no need to crimp separate. I love the inline seat die with the Hornady.
I don't think you need a GC on the .44, I use PB in the .475 and .500 JRH. Softer lead will need one to stop skid and they also help expand the brass when seating. They are a good thing with a softer alloy.
One thing to watch for in the .44 is too much primer pressure that will move a boolit out of the brass before good ignition. I use nothing in the .44 but the Fed 150, never a mag primer even with 296. They triple groups in any weather I have shot in. Crimp will not stop it because a primer alone can generate 2000 PSI. That overcomes case tension too. It will change air space for every shot. Larger cases like the .475 and .500's can take the pressure so the Fed 155 is used in them but never a rifle primer. The .45 Colt is borderline and can use the Winchester primer just fine.
Even the Hornady die must be watched, I had one boolit that was too large for the inline seater so I had to lap it so the boolit would slide through.
Don't depend on your dies, most are for jacketed bullets and the CA dies for lead are not right for anything. Lyman "M" ex-panders can ruin all your hard work.

[snuffy]

My experience with the Lee FCD in 44 mag was it is actually a taper crimp die, just like all the others. I couldn't get a hard roll crimp with it at all. It would continue to reduce the outside diameter of the case mouth, but NOT turn it into the crimp groove. I actually think it was defective, but I never bothered sending it in for replacement. Instead I replaced it with a Redding profile crimp die, it's awesome, just what I wanted to see.

I have since replaced .357 FCD with Redding profile crimpers for the same reason.

[JimA]

Is that wonderful FCD wiping out the neck tension?

Bill

Would you care to explain how that would even be possible? The sizing die is responsible for neck tension. The OP said there is no sizing being done on his FCD, only crimping.

[Moonie]

Would you care to explain how that would even be possible? The sizing die is responsible for neck tension. The OP said there is no sizing being done on his FCD, only crimping.

I had this happen with some 45 Colt cartridges I ran through the FCD before I reamed my throats (they were very tight). It sized down the brass and boolit, the brass sprang back a little, the boolit did not. You could rotate the boolits in the loaded cases, you could not do this to the ones that were not run through the FCD.

I found the real issue and fixed it, I do not use the FCD any longer, nor do I need it.