22 Hornet Black Powder

[davidheart]

I know some of you may balk at me, so please forgive my ignorance. I usually don't venture into the black powder section.

However, I read the 22Hornet was originally developed as a black powder cartridge in the 1920s from a couple sources... I don't have a mold for .22 caliber yet, but I'm super curious to try this.

Does the above data sound right? Any conciderations I should use? Anybody do this before? :confused:

[bigted]

I will be disappointed if any "balking" happens here with the BP and Hornet post. I would guess that instead there will be a couple comments on the "WHAT TOOK SO LONG GETTING HERE" thing. :drinks:

[40-82]

My understanding is that the 22 Hornet was developed from the old 22 WCF, which did start as a black powder cartridge. As far as I know there is no reason you couldn't use black powder in the 22 Hornet, but if you did what you would have would duplicate 22 WCF ballistics and not 22 Hornet ballistics.

[Red River Rick]

Problem with the small bore BP rounds is fouling control. That may be your biggest problem should you decide to venture that route.

RRR

[Springfield]

Smaller bores seem to foul easier than larger. I can keep my 44 and 45's running all day, even a 45 Government auto in 45 acp, but the .32's seem to foul out much faster. Never tried a .22, but I have a Hornet Handi-rifle, might give that a go just for fun. I would use fffg, not ffg, tends to burn cleaner.

[w30wcf]

Several years ago I spent the better part of the summer working with b.p. in the hornet to replicate the vintage .22 W.C.F. Cartridge. First I tried Goex and fouling.reared it's ugly head in short order. Switching to Swiss resolved the fouling problem.:D

I used the Lyman 225438 and the NEI 45 rnfp bullets lubed with SPG. Both worked equally well.

Definitely use small pistol primers. Small rifle primers produced the worst groups and velocity variances of over 200 f.p.s.

Minimal compression worked the best.

Best groups @ 50 yards averaged around 1 1/2" which were double the size of my smokeless .22 W.C.F. Load of 3.3 / 231.

Rifle used was a '43 Winchester with a 2x-7x variable scope.

w30wcf

[country gent]

Sounds like a very interesting project. The right lube to control fouling, the right alloy to promote accuracy and slow leading. As stated above 3 f may be a better choice for this to reduce fouling and possibly a little more velocity.

[uscra112]

The old timers, going back into the 1890s, used 2 to 4 grains of "nitro" powder under their black to control fouling.

The .22 WCF (.22-13-45) was an 1880s development, 13 grains black and a 45 grain paper patched boolit that was .228 diameter. There were smaller .22 caliber centerfires, and there was one try in 1894/95 at a .22-20, but that one used 4 grains nitro under 16 grains black to make it work.

So it would be nicely in period to try a duplex load. 2 or 3 grains of Unique would be my pick, and use Swiss 1 1/2 powder, which doesn't foul like Goex. (But then nothing fouls like Goex.)

[.22-10-45]

I have a No. 3 Ballard in .25-25 Stevens. I am using Swiss 3FG with a 100gr. Ideal #25020 20-1 lead-tin alloy. I tried du-plexing..first with 4759..2-3grs. didn't really clean up much. Then I tried PB,
1-2grs. left bore looking as if a straight smokeless load had been fired. However..with straight Swiss, I could blow-tube and groups were around 1" at 50yds. running 1 barely damp patch thru after each shot gave match accuracy..3/8". With the du-plex..I still needed that 1 patch thru..but could use dry patch. I fiqured it wasn't worth hassel & went back to straight black.

[uscra112]

I have a No. 3 Ballard in .25-25 Stevens. I am using Swiss 3FG with a 100gr. Ideal #25020 20-1 lead-tin alloy. I tried du-plexing..first with 4759..2-3grs. didn't really clean up much. Then I tried PB,
1-2grs. left bore looking as if a straight smokeless load had been fired. However..with straight Swiss, I could blow-tube and groups were around 1" at 50yds. running 1 barely damp patch thru after each shot gave match accuracy..3/8". With the du-plex..I still needed that 1 patch thru..but could use dry patch. I fiqured it wasn't worth hassel & went back to straight black.

Good info. Thanks !

[StrawHat]

I have a Ballard that I converted from 32 Long to 22 WCF. I know, it was a big mistake but I could not find 32 Long ammunition either CF or RF. The work was done by V M Starr and he used a 22 LR liner so .223 diameter. I tried 3F Goex, and some 2F but way back then I did not know of lubes specific to gunpowder and used whatever I had for the 38 Special or 44 Magnum. Results were...not good. I intend to give it another attempt with old Eynesforth, 3F or maybe 4F and a BP lube. Maybe that will produce better results.

If not, I will develop a smokeless load.

[davidheart]

:popcorn:

[waksupi]

With a .22 Hornet, I would be sorely tempted to venture into 4ffff BP and dacron filler. The 4f would take care of much of the fouling problem, and the dacron would allow you to work up to where case capacity is giving the desired velocities.

[Randy C]

I use GOEX it is dirty so I run 1 or 2 patches through every shot with Napa milling / grinding oil its blue and dilute it 20 to 1

[StrawHat]

With a .22 Hornet, I would be sorely tempted to venture into 4ffff BP and dacron filler. The 4f would take care of much of the fouling problem, and the dacron would allow you to work up to where case capacity is giving the desired velocities.

That's about what I was thinking. I can get GOEX 4F locally but the OE I will need to order. I will check with the Kindig's before I place an order, they might be able to include it when they order some.

That and a BP specific lube should help contain the fouling. The stuff I used was whatever was in the lubrisizer. Practically needed to wipe the bore as the boolit was going through it. With jacketed bullet, not as much trouble when loaded over BP. Not nearly as much fun either.

[jrmartin1964]

In the 1890s there actually was a blackpowder cartridge known as ".22 Hornet" or ".22 Harwood Hornet" (after it's creator, Reuben Harwood, a.k.a. "Iron Ramrod"). Developed in 1894, and based on the .25-20 Single Shot cartridge necked down to .22 caliber (0.228), and originally loaded with a 63-grain lead bullet over 20 grains of powder. Twist was 1:12. Ideal Handbooks No.5 (c.1894) through No.15 (c.1903) recommended a 55-grain bullet (No.22834 or No.22835) and 20 grains of black, and loading tools are known marked "22-20" and "22-20 Hornet".

Mr. Harwood reportedly attained velocities of 2000 fps with a 45-grain bullet. Apparently, sometime after 1897 Harwood abandoned this cartridge in search of higher velocities, basing his new experiments on the .32 Ideal.

Jim

[davidheart]

:popcorn: I'm happy.

Thank you all for the information.

[uscra112]

Info on the Ideal handbook is helpful, thanks. I actually have a Harwood Hornet. Been gathering info on it for a couple of months now. Harwood worked up the cartridge a little earlier, but made a public introduction in 1894 along with the Stevens New Ideal, in a Shooting and Fishing article. It never took off. Ned Roberts says that less than 50 rifles were ever chambered for it. Modern Hornet on the left, Harwood Hornet on the right. They really share nothing but the name.

102601

[Texantothecore]

With a .22 Hornet, I would be sorely tempted to venture into 4ffff BP and dacron filler. The 4f would take care of much of the fouling problem, and the dacron would allow you to work up to where case capacity is giving the desired velocities.


I would be very interested in your experiments with the Hornet and 4fg. Our European members might be able to provide some insight as from what I hear the use of 4fg as the main propellant in Europe is much more common than in the US.

Please keep us updated.

[49FMarlin]

I just got an H+R Hornet, and I'm waiting on a reloading die set,
a kind gentleman here sent me 40 37g NOE mold boolits to try out,
I've been sighting in using 35-Hornady Vmax bullets for the cases,
I don't know what they use for a charge,
sighted it in at 40 yards (all i have in front of a berm)at home,
then tapped out a primer with a drill bitt, and seated in a SP primer with a bigger drill bitt (ya i know I'm waiting for my gear to show up i ordered)
loaded up the case with 12.7g of 3F swiss, hand pressed the bullet in to the lube band after beveling the inside of the case,
loaded it and it landed 1/4 inch below the V-Max bullets no clue to FPS but it is a nice muffled low bang compared to that darn crack

no crimping--same style i use when i shoot my 45-70 trapdoor
not much residue, no more than my trapdoor,, a swab and its gone ready to load up again,

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I know some of you may balk at me, so please forgive my ignorance. I usually don't venture into the black powder section.

However, I read the 22Hornet was originally developed as a black powder cartridge in the 1920s from a couple sources... I don't have a mold for .22 caliber yet, but I'm super curious to try this.

Does the above data sound right? Any conciderations I should use? Anybody do this before? :confused:

Nearly, but it was developed from a black powder cartridge in the 1920s. As the .22 WCF it existed before gas-checks were invented, or jacketed bullets in an American sporting rifle. It worked well at about 1500 ft./sec. with black powder, and fouling wasn't an insuperable problem. You will probably find that modern cases will hold less powder than the early ones, due to having thicker walls, but it should be enough for a marginally hotter .22LR equivalent, which lots of people seem to have a use for nowadays.

The tendency to foul may be diminished in a period-authentic way by using a sheet of wax between tight-fitting card discs behind the bullet. If you melt any hard lube in hot water, you should have an even sheet floating on top when it goes cold.

[tacklebury]

First off, I know this is old. It's something I'm playing with also though, so ignore me if you aren't interested...

Why not paper patch bullets to save the fouling issues. I load a BP converted .22 LR that I shoot the little .221 Air rifle round balls through and I use thermal paper from a receipt machine, very thin, to patch them. I've shot up to 20 times in a row without issue. ;) I've just got a hornet and I'm paper patching NAA 30 gr. RN lead bullets with thermal paper and want to try out the 4ffffg powder to see what it'll do. Not really trying for super high velocities, but in my converted .22, it works good and the patch seems to clean up the bore each time you load another. I've not patched a cartridge previously, but will see if it helps. 8)

[StrawHat]

First off, I know this is old. It's something I'm playing with also though, so ignore me if you aren't interested...

Why not paper patch bullets to save the fouling issues. I load a BP converted .22 LR that I shoot the little .221 Air rifle round balls through and I use thermal paper from a receipt machine, very thin, to patch them. I've shot up to 20 times in a row without issue. ;) I've just got a hornet and I'm paper patching NAA 30 gr. RN lead bullets with thermal paper and want to try out the 4ffffg powder to see what it'll do. Not really trying for super high velocities, but in my converted .22, it works good and the patch seems to clean up the bore each time you load another. I've not patched a cartridge previously, but will see if it helps. 8)

I admire your manual dexterity to be able to pp a 22 caliber boolit! I have considered it but have successfully put it off.

Kevin

[Castaway]

tacklebury, unless I’m missing something in your post, patching the bullet won’t do a thing to mitigate fouling from black powder.

[Eddie Southgate]

The Hornet was never a BP cartridge and in my opinion you would be wasting time trying to make it one.

[StrawHat]

The Hornet was never a BP cartridge and in my opinion you would be wasting time trying to make it one.

Correct, the 22 Hornet was developed as a smokeless powder cartridge. But the final dimensions used by Winchester(?) when the commercialized the cartridge were based on the older 22 WCF, which has caused many to wonder what the Hornet could do if loaded with black powder.

Kevin