Duplex Loads

[HollandNut]

do they burn clean enough to not use a water and vinegar dip for the cases ??

what about the bore , still standard procedures as with strait BP loads ?

[Bent Ramrod]

Just my experience, but I clean the duplexed cases the same way I do the regular BP cases, in a Thumler's Tumbler with ceramic media. I would guess the Windex with vinegar treatment would work as well. Duplexing does not eliminate black powder fouling, it just prevents the buildup that ruins accuracy. You still have to clean the cases and gun the same way as if you were shooting straight black powder.

I only duplex the small calibers (under .38) and with these I don't need a blow tube or wiping between shots. A very light deposit forms in the bore that stays consistent for 50 shots at least. Afterwards, I clean the gun the same as I do for straight black powder shooting, decap the cases, rinse them out and throw them in the Thumler's.

[Don McDowell]

No you still have to clean the cases and the barrel. The bp residue still happens, just not so thick.
Pretty much the same loading except don't compress the blackpowder.

[bigted]

some will call heresy and suggest finding a good strong rope for something.

I however will firmly suggest using RL-7 or IMR4227 as a 10% charge under your main BP charge such as ...

take your 70 grain load for a 45-70 for example ... take the prescribed 10% which in this example would be 7 grains of either RL-7 or the IMR4227 powder under your BP charge of 63 grains instead of the original 70 grains. 70 minus the 7 = 63.

this charge is a nice load and will burn very clean and negate the need to swab the bore after each shot and also leave the brass in a much cleaner condition after the shot ... unlike the pure BP loads.

HOWEVER ... there is still the need to wash your brass in the same manner you have been doing AND clean your rifle in the same manner after shooting.

the neatest advantage of doing duplex loads is the length of time that the shooting can be enjoyed without the normal fouling control needed with just straight black powder loads.

I will urge you to heed a warning however. ENSURE that you only shoot these duplex loads with due diligence in the loading process {be very careful} ... AND please ... ensure that the firearm you shoot them in is of a modern manufacture with modern steels ... {being built AFTER the 1930's or so} ... as the steel is much stronger in these firearms then the older iron/steel used in building the original frames and barrels in the old days when there were no high pressure smokeless powders invented as of yet. the pressure in these duplex loads CAN get higher then the straight bp loads and especially in the larger capacity cases.

do your safety check and investigation first please. do NOT want to hear about a person ruining his life ... nor ... a perfectly good rifle.

[HollandNut]

yeah I knew about the 10% smokeless charge , I got plenty of 4227 I use in the 480 and that was gonna be my go to first choice .. Seat the boolit enuff to sit on the wad and no compression .. Is a CZ550 458 Lott , so I sure hope it's strong enuff for this ..

Thanks

[JSnover]

I think Paul Matthews covered this in one of his books. He said pretty much the same thing.

[Nobade]

yeah I knew about the 10% smokeless charge , I got plenty of 4227 I use in the 480 and that was gonna be my go to first choice .. Seat the boolit enuff to sit on the wad and no compression .. Is a CZ550 458 Lott , so I sure hope it's strong enuff for this ..

Thanks

Haha - yep, It MIGHT be strong enough to hold a load like this....

The main thing is it will get a lot of attention at the range when you touch it off! Should work quite well. Just call it a 45 X 2.8 high pressure belted express to confuse folks.

-Nobade

[HollandNut]

a good name for it , I have been toying with an express name to go with it

Thanks

[bigted]

now the 458 Lott is a questionable platform for duplex loading. id take the dainty rifle to a good smith to ensure that the configuration will withstand your duplex loads without letting you down.

I have loaded duplex in my 458 WM and the terrifying thing is .. I can never load enough rounds when I take it shooting. I can scarcely shoot enough of them at a setting to tire of them. I call my 458 the "45 2.5 express". the 458 Lott could be called the "45 2.8 express". my 375 I had I called the "38 2.8 express" when I loaded duplex in it. they ARE a hoot to load and shoot and also as mentioned by Nobade ... there will be folks that cant help but be curious about that cloud of smoke and confetti coming out of the end of a bolt gun. also to further confuse ... if you can get it to group ... folks that peer at others targets will want /// need to know what the heck your shooting to produce such tiny groups AND have such a dramatic explosion from your muzzle with each jerk of the trigger.

too much fun

[BruceB]

Speaking of duplex loads in 'smokeless' rifles, I once turned the proportions around (for a different purpose).

In a .338 Winchester Magnum, I used black powder as a FILLER over the smokeless charge.

I "disremember" just what the rationale was at this late date, but I DO recall that it worked well.

Think about it.....the "filler" is totally consumable, it won't add significant pressure to the load, and all the BP products of combustion were blown out of the barrel by the smokeless-powder gases behind the filler.

The bore was left quite clean....not visibly dirtier than a straight-smokeless load.

[HollandNut]

fortunately the Lott will fire WM's as well , I have plenty of Win mag brass around , and whenever I go to the range I pick up most all belted brass laying around to fire form

[bigted]

just messin about the Lott ... I bet it would reign king of duplex loads. I would venture a guess that a feller could cram around 110 grains 2F blackpowder in there and load it just as one would load a sharps 45-110 or the sharps designation the 45 2-7/8" chamber. it would just have a faster twist rifling at 14 inch twist I think I remember ... this would handle any 500+ grain boolit in greaser or paper patch style.

do post your success in your modern express case and photo's of the rifle would be nice too.

[mikeym1a]

I think Paul Matthews covered this in one of his books. He said pretty much the same thing.

He certainly did, even gave a percentage thingy for it. Also, if you have any of the earlier Lyman or Ideal Manuals, they list duplex loads for various BP cartridges. I'm a history nut (have a degree) and have bought several of the Ideal Manuals through fleabay, and some of the reproductions through Cornell Publications. They are surprisingly informative. mikey

[HollandNut]

yeah the Lott is a 14" twist .. I collect old manuals , but don't have any with duplex loads .. I got a couple moulds that are over 500 , 4 cav 462560 and a couple one off NEIs , and a bunch of other stuff another member gave me some time ago to clean his shelves , and some PP as well ..

Heres the little beasty
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/GroovyJack/Lott3-1.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/GroovyJack/media/Lott3-1.jpg.html)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/GroovyJack/Lott2.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/GroovyJack/media/Lott2.jpg.html)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/GroovyJack/Lott.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/GroovyJack/media/Lott.jpg.html)

[bigted]

looks exactly like the rifle I had only mine was in the 458 winchester chamber. that rifle would cloverleaf 5 shots at 50 yards all day long with 400 grain boolits. it would shoot 400 grain jacketed blasters from Barns. if memory serves ... I believe it held 5 in the mag and 1 in the Shute so it woulda been a fine dangerous game rifle.

have fun with it and I cant wait to see some targets with your duplex loads and read about the particulars of your load.

[HollandNut]

yep it's a true six shooter ted , be a few weeks at the earliest , this thing will empty the mag into 4" at 100 yards with 550 woodleighs around 2050 fps , pretty good tooth rattlin' loads IMO .

A mag of those is a days worth of shootin'

Not worried about the Lott chain pullin' , it don't have much on the Winnie these days , like it did when Jacques came out with it ..