Too Short Or Too Fast?

[rodwha]

Before creating the design I asked a fellow from a website on twist rates and he said my deign would be "over" stabilized, and so I went with it.

I had a WFN 170 grn .45 cal bullet made that drops ~.400" in length for a cap n ball revolver. But I noticed a few were beginning to keyhole at 15 yds.

I was shooting these from a Pietta 5.5" Remington '58 that has a 1:16-18" twist. But it also has .446" chambers and .452" grooves.

I hadn't noticed this before, but maybe I wasn't paying attention. It wasn't a very obvious print on the paper, and only a few showed it.

I was using 30 grns of 3F Triple 7, and I've wondered if it's just that the bullet is too short, or if maybe it's going a bit faster than it can handle. I've also wondered about the design, and that maybe it's not well balanced. Here's the bullet:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-170C-D.png

Would hollow pointing it to get more weight in the back help? Is it just too fast (guessing ~1000 fps), or is it just too short?

I'll be testing with this in mind next time I'm out. But I'm sending my cylinder out to have the chambers reamed to .449" and chamfered. Maybe that'll change things too...

[tomme boy]

Why are you using a gas checked design? The bore measurement is way off. That is why it is tumbling. You are shaving off a lot of lead when seating this into the cylinder. One thing you could try is to use a felt wad under the bullet. How much leading are you getting? The other thing is you are going to have to ream the cylinders out. But much more than the 0.449" that you state. You are going to have at least match the bore.

[rodwha]

These aren't a gas checked design. I had Tom at Accurate Molds give them the rebated base for seating in cap n ball cylinders.

By bore measurements being way off do you mean the difference in chamber and groove dimensions? If so I haven't noticed anyone else seeing the same thing when firing conicals from their Remingtons. So I figure it's my design.

I did use felt wads with some of them as the range trip was last second and I didn't lube the bullets. But I didn't use the wads with all of them, and I did notice tumbling with wads.

I didn't notice leading in the Remington, but I did find a sliver of lead in my ROA shooting the 195 grn version with 30 grns of 3F T7.

I wanted to ream the chambers larger. There's a fellow who is doing this for free though. Figured I'd give it a go and see how well it does. I'm a little leery of taking too much off as the chamber walls seem fairly thin to begin with. And since I use energetic powders I figure it might be a good idea to just take those few thousandths off.

I'd prefer to have it bore or slightly larger, but I've seen others have much better shooting pistols just by getting close.

[tomme boy]

Fit is fit. Don't matter if you are shooting black or smokeless. If it is blowing by, it is leading and it can cause it to tumble.

[Enyaw]

I've gotta rep fer fixin and tuning cap&ballers. Been doing it for decades. I'm reliable fer advise. I can only give my opinion though.

I don't see where any of the Hombre here have steered you astray.
Bullets have to fit properly and the chambers have to fit the size of the grooves of the barrel to get "good&reliable" accuracy. The chambers size the balls/bullets fer the barrels of cap&ballers.

Yer mould is wrong since yer chambers(not cylinders) are undersized for the "grooves" in the barrel. I've been told they(the Italians) do that to contend with subsequent shots fired with dirty black powder.

Start with the barrrel. At .452 in. that tells you approx. what the bullet should be. The rule with lead bullets(cap&baller revs use PURE LEAD bullets) is to have the bullet sized by the chambers right at exactly the "groove diameter" of the barrel or...... .001-.002-.003 in. bigger than the groove diameter. Yer pick. The .003 in. over groove diameter can be too much fer some guns. Best to stay at no more than .002 over the groove diameter. I do have some cap&ballers reamed in the chambers more than .003 but....that is me and I'm not afraid to walk thru the valley of death to get a barrel with extremely shallow grooves to shoot well.

Anywhoooo...the chambers being sized to swag the lead down to groove diameter or .001-.002 in. over is where to start.
The lead of a ball needs to be at least .005-.010 inch over the size of the chambers so once it's in there it stays in tight and seals the front of the chamber from "chain fire" from the shots fired first off. Bullets need less diameter to stay in the chambers and seal and all. I'd say .006 in. over the chamber size is good to go fer yer bullets.


Yer bullet design couldn't get much better being close to the weight of a ball that the gun was designed to shoot with the nice deep lube groove and all.

The problem is the size of the bullet design. Once the chambers are ,say, at groove diameter of the barrel then the bullet size can be chosen.

Since things the same size as a hole are too tight to go in the hole the base(heel of the heel bullet) of the bullet needs to be about .003-.005 inch less than the size of the chambers. So it goes in the hole. Fouling can exasperate that "going in the hole" thing so maybe even .007 in. less than the size of the chamber will work fer the heel of the heeled bullet.
So with .452 chambers the size of the heel of the bullet needs to be approx. .003-.007 in. less than the .452 in. chambers.

Taking the chambers from .446 inch to .452 inch is .006 in. over the size as they come from the factory. That is .003 inch taken off each side of the hole. That's about the thickness of a piece of paper taken off each side of the hole.

In my opinion......that isn't going to cause any problems UNLESS you are one of those people wantin a cheapy cap&baller to shoot like a RUGER. POWERFUL. Cap&ballers have their limits and usin FFFg 777 will wreck yer guns longevity in awhile. It's too hot fer cap&ballers to stand up to fer very long. At least go to FFg 777 or better yet go to Alliant black MZ powder or "God forbid" use the real stuff like The Holy Black (black powder). The 777 may not blow yer cylinder but.....it can loosen the fit of the cylinder base pin holes in the frame and warp the frame probably but will in time cause the cylinder to recoil back into the frame and PEEN the steel of the frame causing cylinder slop.

Anywhoooo....back to the bullet. The front part of the heel bullet needs to be bigger than the chambers to swag in the chamber nice and tight and stay there when the other chambers fire. At least .003 inch bigger than the chambers diameter for the front of the heeled bullet.

That would put the mould design at .449 fer the base of the heel and at .455 fer the front of the bullet if I did the math right. The heel can be a bit smaller and the front can be a bit bigger in diameter. It's the operators choice.

What you would want is.....the heel of the heeled bullet to be sized by the chambers to be what the barrels groove diameter is but.....at that diameter the heel will be difficult to go in the chambers so the heel needs to be a bit smaller than groove diameter.

Naturally you want the front of the bullet to be bigger than the chambers so it swags in there tight but gets swagged to what the barrels groove diameter is.

Once the heeled bullet is in the chamber it's sized to fit the grooves of the barrel except fer the smaller heeled part that needs to be smaller to go in the chamber hole.

You'd hope the heeled part would obturate to the size of the groove diameter of the barrel sized chamber so...the heel would be the same size as the front of the bullet that's sized to groove diameter. So.....once the bullet goes in the barrelit fits like a,well,bullet, in any well machined gun. The bullet fits the barrel if the bullet is proper.

One trick to insure the heel of the bullet surely ends up the size it needs to be so the whole bullet ends up being at least the groove diameter of the barrel(the size of the lead bullet can be .001-.002 inch over the groove diameter also) is........to have the mould maker do the best of both worlds and put a hollow base to the bullet. Hollow base that extends thru the bullet till it gets to the front end of the lube groove.

Not a wild overly canaverous hollow base but a hollow base that will let the heel swell to fit the chambers diameter that is the right diameter to match or exceed by .001-.002 inch over the barrel groove diameter. Don't want the powder over flaring the skirt of the hollow base and flaring it so the bullet flies like a frizzbee.

Anywhooooo.....a person can get respectable"energy" from a cap&ball revolver without wrecking the gun. That good ole 777 powder is an energetic powder made fer the alloy barreled modern inline muzzleloader rifles and.....is a bit over the top fer cap&baller revs alloy of cheapy non-ordanance grade steel. A Ruger Old Army can take the strain. A regulat ole cap&baller from Italy will live a short life if it's addicted to 777 powder. The flame that burns the hottest burns the shortest.

I was told by an old timer a long time ago (I'm an old timer now myself) ................Shoot yerself in the gut and tell me if the gun is under powered when using the lowly under pressured black powder. Only a joke and a hypothetical now. Don't really do that. Just imagine what it would feel like getting hit with a pure lead ball or bullet going about 800fps and you can imagine the guns aren't really under powered. That was what the old timer was wantin to get across to me. The cap&ballers aren't really under powered.
Ask some of "The Souls" pushin up daisies ifin they thunked the revolvers that killed them were under powered.

Give up the "energetic" powders like 777 and use something like Pyrodex, black powder, Alliant Black MZ or that Pioneer Powder stuff.

Personally I like the good ole Holy Black in my cap&ballers. I can sicken myself with something like Alliant Black MZ now and then and still live but.....there ain't nothin better than the good ole black Powder fer the cap&ballers. Black is dirty but black is good fer the soul too.

All that being said........ Moral of this story......I thunk the way the mould is right now.....a hollow base put to it coupled with the chambers reamed to .452 would do the trick.

[rodwha]

I've heard many claim that these pure lead projectiles through these repros with small chambers obturate to fit. I'm not sure about it, but I'm not one to argue about something I know little about. What do any of you know of this? Ultimately you can't go wrong with groove diameter chambers!

This fellow will be reaming my chambers for free. So I don't see that it hurts to give it a try. If it still doesn't work well I'll go back to looking at reaming larger.

I actually do enjoy using Goex Olde Eynsford, but I'm not sure it's any less aggressive than Triple 7. It's been designed to compete with Swiss powders, and from the little testing I've seen they all three give similar velocity when compared volume for volume, much higher than the other powders.

[Enyaw]

What do any of you know about this? You mean the lead obturation thing?

Well I know a little about it. I've been on the net talking bout cap&ballers fer years. That makes me an expert right? Just joking. The net is full of mis-info.

Testing helps. I've done that. Some cap&ballers will shoot real well with the chambers .003-.005 inch undersized fer the barrel grooves. "Balls" can work like that. Balls have a chance to be more forgiving. Balls don't "yaw" thru the air though like a bullet out of stabilization can.

The truth be known.....the 36's cap&ballers don't always seal the grooves completely even when shooting lead balls that are over sized fer the barrels groove diameter. They can(possibly) shoot good that way because they are balls.

Take an over sized ball and tap it into a 36cal. barrel then look at a window for light and see if you can see light coming thru the corners(at least) ofthe grooves in the barrel. Chances are you will see some light. Do the same thing with a 44/45 cap&baller and there is hardly ever any light showing in the corners of the grooves.
I think it has to do with the maleability of the lead and the relationship between the depth of the grooves and the size of the ball. I've tested that many enough times to say I know what I'm talkin bout.
What am I saying? Well....most 36cal. cap&ballers hardly ever seal the lead "balls" in the barrels completely and they can shoot pretty good that way. The 44/45's always do seal if the balls are the right diameter or larger.
Balls have a chance to shoot good enough without a complete seal to the grooves by the lead. Bullets....they don't work like the balls do. Any non-seal of the grooves with bullets shows up at the muzzle like a bad crown does. The guns that don't seal completely (like a bad crown)don't shoot as well as those that do. Obsturation may help or may not. Obsturation isn't always exactly consistant. The laws of physics tells ya that. Or the laws of logic. That's why I'd recommend a hollow base to a heel bullet. Heeled bullets aren't known for being consistantly accurate since the base of a bullet is so important. A hollow to the heeled base put there the right design to swell the heel has to help. More people talk about the hollow base bullets shooting well from the conversions of the 36cal. cap&ballers than Hombre with the heeled bullets so....why not go all the way and make the bullet fit the way a bullet should to shoot right and put a hollow to the base to make it so. So when the bullet is in the barrel all of it is the right size fer the grooves?

Testing with under sized chambers and then testing with proper sized chambers tells the story. Fouling can help seal undersized balls but the fouling can change in the grooves from shot to shot. Lets gas erupt from the muzzle erratically like a bad crown that rotates around.

I'veshot ballsand bullets of pure lead into dirt banks with plenty of shale rock mixed in. Sub soil. Later after the rain washes dirt away the lead ends up onn top and I can collect it. It's amazing how so many pure lead projectiles ballsor bullets don;t deform much after hitting rocky dirt baks. That tellsa story. Lead doesn't deform as easily as all of us hard bullet-jacketed bullet thunkin people imagine. Look at all the lead bullets found at Civil War battle sites and how many are still in good shape.

I just have the idea lead doesn't obsturate as easily or as consistantely as we may imagine. The balls and bullets in cap&ballers move fairly easily and the back pressure there needs to be so the balls/bullets obsurate instead of just move from the pressures isn't the same each individual chamber fired.

That's just an opinion I have from so many years of shootin blackpowder/subs with pure lead bullets. Pure lead in original types 45 Colts,44 Colts,38 Colts,38 special,44 specials, cap&ball revolvers, muzzle loader rifles ,with balls and bullets. I gave up on workin loads by depending on obsturation. People make a lot of claims but some of it is word of mouth from so many "experts" out there in Opinion Land.

Going with the reaming on the chambers a step at a time isn't a bad idea but may waste time. The old wives tales about how bullets should fit barrels have been debunked long ago. There's basically only one proper way. Off hand I'd say if the chambers are .004 inch under sized fer the grooves of the barrel that won't be optimum. Might give alright groups but may not. Trying it will tell something but......ifit were me I'd be a-wondering. Wondering if the groups could be better if the bullets fit the barrel.

This is just my opinion about things and not knowing me makes my opinions suspect I'd guess.

Like my opinion about the 777 powder. The cap&ballers I damaged with the stuff testing it are still around. The cylinders recoiled back into the frames of the Colts and peened the depressions the shape of the points on the back of the cylinders that hit the frames recoil shields. Granted Remingtons have a better design where more force is spread thru more surface so they get damaged less readily than Colts but......they aren't made of ordanance grade steel and bullets impart more recoil force back into the frames than balls do. Bullets take more force to be pushed down the barrel so they force the cylinders back harder than balls.

Anywhoooo......ifin you use the 777 powder I'd suggest sticking with the FFg stuff.

One thing....not being actual black powder the 777 may not have the ability to obsurate the lead bullets like the black. Just like smokeless powder isn't known for obsturating lead bullets real well. The 777 seems to ignite more like smokeless than the blackpowder.
The 777 is considered a flamable like smokeless and not an explosive like the black right? That's why the 777 is on the selves in the stores and the black isn't.
Am I right bout that one?

Plenty of Hombres use the 777 so it must be manageable. Then recommendation is to cut back on the volume compared to the black I know.

I damaged a coupla cap&ballers with steel frames using fff 777 and max was 27 grains by volume. Man,I tell ya......the higher loads were really accurate in guns with proper sized chambers compared to the grooves in the barrels and all but they got hurt by the amount of powder I went up to. I just had to test it out though. My mistake. I went too high fer the guns and the manufacturers recommendation. I was shootin 36 cal. Colts.

I will use 777 in my cap&ballers at times for a change but.....never the FFFg and never without dropping the volume compared to the black and I shoot balls in them and hardly ever bullets. If I shoot bulets they are the Lee Conicals. I found a long time ago the bullets are hard on the cap&ballers. Even cap&ballers converted to cartridge. More so with the Colts than the Remmies though. The Remmies are a better design than the Colts are.

[tomme boy]

I have a spare cylinder for one of these. I have had it in a drawer for about 20 years. I just mesured it and they are 0.441" if you want it, PM me.

[rodwha]

I'm leery that the older model may not fit a new one. The chambers certainly don't match up.

I'm also torn on Uberti vs Pietta. I wanted an Uberti, but took a Pietta due to the sale at Cabella's. I'm considering Ubertis, though I'd likely still keep this one as I've modified the loading window, and doubt it would sell at a reasonable price. Maybe it'll become a tackle box pistol or some such.

I do appreciate the offer though!