1886 and 71 differences

[bigted]

looking for an education a bit here ... I would like to know the differences between the 71 winchester and the 1886 winchester. in looking at the 2 I don't see any major differences with the exception of the pistol grip lever/stock.

I see that the c.o.a.l is a bit longer in the 71 compared to the 1886 but I don't know this for sure either.

what I have in mind is maybe getting a 71 and having it re bored to a 40-65 with the ability to shoot a bit longer coal loads therefore enabling me to load a heavier boolit in the 40-65 to hunt animals a bit heavier then the deer class of the 250ish grain boolits. I also like the pistolgrip configuration better then the straight grip.

so just looking for thoughts on the 71 in comparison to the 1886 action. maybe I would get a 348 win. and enjoy it so much that id leave it as is.

thanks in advance for the info.

[Suo Gan]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=407270369

Save yourself a few years? Get it next week? I know it is not exactly what you are seeking, but just imagine all the time you have to invest in this. It always seems to me that by the time I get a gun back I have begun to lose interest in that particular topic. But that is just me. I really don't think that it will come down to very much in reality. A 45-70 could do what it does for $4000 less and you won't be worried about scuffing it or damaging your treasure out in the real world hunting deep, dark, wooly woods.

I would not do this to a period gun. If the gun was beat, then it will take a small fortune to get it built back up. If it is a modern gun, why not? Ken Waters did an article on this I believe.

Have fun!

[Nobade]

I ran into this a couple of years ago. A guy brought a Browning '71 into the shop that had been rebarreled to 45-70 and it didn't work. It took some head scratching and a fair number of replacement 1886 parts to get it to work. I don't remember everything I did to it, but I did eventually get it to work OK. But the cartridge length ended up being very picky and they had to be loaded longer than a normal 45-70 to get it to not jam. Luckily, Browning still had most of the needed parts for it or I would have been SOL. I think it would be easier to make yourself a 40 AK (I know, all wildcat) rather than make it into a 40-65. Or possibly a 40 cal. on the 45 X 2.4 inch case, whatever that is called. I wonder if there was ever a 40 cal. on the 50 X 2.4 inch? I bet somebody here knows!

-Nobade

[Sgt Red Leg]

I ran through this about two years ago. I had an original M71 rifle and a Browning/Miroku M71 carbine. I also had a B/M M1886 in .45-70 that was made in the 1980's . . . not the current production type. That rifle is BEAUTIFUL and hoot to shoot ! I like the pistol grip and curved lever on the carbine and thought a shot .45-7- would be the cats meow. I contacted shops, asked questions. I have a list somewhere here of shops that would/could do the work. That includes what they thought would have to be done to complete the job. BUT, I cannot lay my hands on it right now. I ended up selling the carbine and purchased ( after 6 months of trying) another 1980's B/M 1886. This second rifle in .45-70 is my Daughters rifle now. Anyway, the added up cost of the conversion, on a rifle I already owned, was just to much for me.

I remember there were several things that might be a problem. Mostly in case dimensions. The .348 case rim dia.= .610". The .45-70 rim dia.=.608". Sooo, the bolt face and extractor need to be reworked. (maybe ejector ? I don't remember). Rim thickness is the same @ .070". Case lenght .348=2.255". The .45-70= 2.105". The case length issue may cause feeding problems. As mentioned above, the cartridge over all length would probably have to be longer than standard .45-70 gov. loads. I do not believe that extraction/ejection would be a problem w/bolt face rework.

Besides the coast of the rebuild there would be the shipping of a really expensive now rifle by UPS or FedEx and the possible damage/loss associated with that. That is a story for another time.

As for the differences in parts, I think the main difference is the tapered bolt locking lugs in the .348 . As I understand it, that allowed the .348 bolt to be locked up tighter to withstand the higher pressure round. As for possibilely liking the M71 to much to change it . . . . . that is a distinct possibility ! I still own my original M71 rifle, have taken mule deer with it and will not sell it. It was born in 1937 and still doing very well thank you ! Oh, the Lady in Montana who purchased my B/M carbine uses it for her bear guns in the mountains of western Montana. Good luck w/project. Keep asking questions......the only dumb questions are the ones that never get asked/answered !!

[bigted]

thanks for these answers ... I have another question now to go with the first ones ... how is the 348 WCF in power, recoil, ballistics? does it compare better or worse then the 33 WCF?

I am looking for a lever that has better ballistics then the 45-70 and enough to do a smackdown on a western Oregon elk {Roosevelt} ... much the same as the 45-70 with a 400 grain boolit would do ... or a 400 grain loaded 40-65.

[Harry O]

There are quite a few wildcat cartridges based on the .348, all of them necked up to larger bullets. The largest I know of is .50 caliber, but there are ones at every bullet size between .348 and the .50 cal. Because they are all based on the .348 case, there is (reportedly) no problem with feeding.

[smkummer]

A factory .348 cartridge will down with authority anything on the N. American planet, how much more do you need? How about staying with the original cartridge (Barnes makes specialty .348 bullets) if you need anymore than the factory .348 200 grain bullets. I would not feel under gunned against the meanest brown bear Alaska has with a model 71 Winchester. While the .348 bullet is an odd caliber, why try to fix something that isn't broken? The pistol grip stock of the model 71 Winchester made me a believer in its recoil reducing design and I would love to add a model 64 in 30-30 to my humble pre-64 94 collection. As usual, just my .02

[fouronesix]

I too find no flies in the M71/348 ointment. Same holds true for the M86/33WCF and the M86/45-70. I have and shoot all three.

Ballistics and trajectories for the 33 WCF are available from many sources.

Here's a pretty good write up on the general subject.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=416&magid=30

One thing about wildcatting/hot rodding the 71, as Harold Johnson learned right away, was that the front mag tube to barrel attachment has to be beefed up. Otherwise the much greater recoil with the big loads will damage or separate that attachment.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, M1886 rifles made after the introduction of the .33WCF are of the same type steel/strength as the Model 71's - earlier M1886's are not as strong.

Conversions of M71's from .348 to .45-70 are common knowledge - rebore or rebarrel to .45-70 & change the M71 lifter to an M1886/86 lifter; and presto, you have (in effect) a pistol-gripped M1886.


.


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[bigted]

cool and again ... thanks for all the reply's. I love the look and feel of the pistolgrip stock and know for a fact about the recoil reducing effect these configurations have on a rifle.

never been around the 348 ... contrary to popular belief ... the 348 is no longer king of Alaska's bush. guides carry a variety of rifles capable to bring to an end the attack from bear or moose. I know several that use the Marlin lever 45-70 loaded hotter then usual to great effect.

I am open to the 348 as is and if the opportunity presents ... I will find out first hand ... but I have this move to get thru first whack before I do any further experimenting of substance. just pickin brains for info in the meantime.

[John Taylor]

There needs to be some internal work on both the 86 and 71 when going to 50 cal., the cartridge will not go into the mag. Also the feed rail has to be opened up about .020". All the later 86 and the 71 have a threaded in mag tube so recoil should not jar them loose.

[TXGunNut]

I was looking at a Pedersoli 1886/71 earlier today @ Cabelas. It was 45-70 so may not be what you're looking for but could ba a good place to start.

[fouronesix]

Point of clarification- for the original M71 wildcats. I know that Johnson ran into the magazine detachment problem immediately after testing the full pressure 450 Alaskan loads in the M71 with a full magazine. The 450 Alaskan has the capability of pushing a 400 gr bullet to 2150-2200 fps. I don't believe the entire problem was the tube pulling out of the receiver. The symptom was the tube detaching from the barrel. During recoil the rifle not only moves to the rear but there's also significant rotation... barrel "jump". The two small screws holding the forearm nose cap in place also hold the magazine to the barrel. That's one of the areas of weakness and was reinforced when modifying the original M71/ 450s.

Here's a pic of the standard factory M71 and a pic of the schematic of that area.

[bigted]

so im guessing that none of these problems exist in the OEM 348 WCF and the model 71? these factory rifles and caliber handle the 200 grain jacketed at the 2300 or 2400 FPS without pulling themselves apart?

[fouronesix]

The big 45 and 50 cal M71 wildcats will do it in short order with full loads and full magazines... even faster in those converted to full length magazines. I've never heard of a detached magazine in a standard M71/348. The only thing I've heard (never seen) is that over time and after a lot of shooting they will loosen up and start to get iffy.

Some smiths who work on and build custom M71s use a simple barrel band around the magazine just forward of the forearm cap. Simple, strong and straight forward - especially for the big wildcats and heavy loads.

[John Taylor]

Pulled a 71 apart today and found several things different from the 86. The carriers are not interchangeable, the 71 does not have the link from the lever and is shorter. Coil spring hammer with a bushing going through the frame and hammer, fun to get out.

[bigted]

John ... was this a modern Japanese built 71 or an original 71 by Winchester? don't know that there is any difference but thought id ask. also do the 86's have the mag tube threaded like the 71's do? if so what year ...about ... did they begin doing this?

looked at a winny 95 today on the auction site and wonder if maybe that in 405 would be an option. never handled one so don't know if that mag well would bother me or not. wonder if the balance point is on that mag well where your hand would want to hold it while carry in thick stuff.

[fouronesix]

Both the 71 and 95 were built as modern, smokeless rifles. The 71 being a slightly modified version of the earlier 86 with the 95 being a smokeless type design from the get go. The advantage of the 95 is the stack magazine, allowing for more modern RN or SPP jacketed bullets. Yes, the 95 balance point for carry is on the mag well. It is however not too hard to get used to and adapt to- just different. ("the distended belly of a sick pup", to paraphrase one well known detractor)

The 95 in 35 Win or 405 Win are both big medicine. I would avoid the 30-06 in the 95 originals. I have not heard that the new repro 95s in 30-06 have had any stretching issues as did some of the originals after firing a bunch of full power 30-06s.

also do the 86's have the mag tube threaded like the 71's do? if so what year ...about ... did they begin doing this?"
I think the transition to a threaded mag tube began in about 1897 and continued until end of production of the 86 in 1935 and continued throughout production of the 71.


95 405 Win
86 45-70
71 348

[Red River Rick]

Ted:

The 86' started life as a .33 WCF, with a Rapid Taper barrel. Neglect turned the bore into a sewer pipe. So I re-barreled it with a 24" Octagon and chambered it for 45-70. New wood. Only draw back is the Cresent Style butt plate................if your not shouldering it correctly.

The 71' is a Browning, still .348. I've taken a few Moose with it.........more than enough energy.

Not much differance externally, the big differnce is inside.

RRR

101802

[376Steyr]

This month's issue of "Rifle" magazine has an article on the 45-90, and the author spends some time on the differences between the 1886 and the 71.

[JFE]

I think the main differences have been identified for you. Early model Win 71's had a long top tang for a few years (like the 1886's) and then switched to a short tang. All the Browning 71's have a short tang. Unfortunately when the short tang was used Winchester chose to push the point of the comb forward which, to my mind, made the rifle feel awkward and uncomfortable during recoil. I think Win 1886's in 33 Win had threaded mag tubes.

The main differences are coil spring main spring (vs leaf), tapered lugs (vs parallel) and the absence of S hook (which links the lever to the cartridge carrier). Since the 71 was only chambered for one cartridge length, there was no need to retain the S hook, which I understand was used in the 1886's to alter the actions for different COAL.

According to Doug Turnbull, the tapered locking lugs in the M71 were required to handle high pressure loads without the lugs locking up. He encountered similar problems when he developed his 475 Turnbull in 1886's and 71's.

The 348 is a great cartridge for what you want to do and there are probably more good quality bullets available for it now than ever before. The limiting factor to extending range, if you are using open sights, is accurate shot placement under stress conditions and seeing your game, ie you are limited by the open sights, not the cartridge.

The 405 is another good one to consider for your purposes.

If you like traditional calibres, a 45/90 with a fast twist would make a nice conversion too.

[bigted]

very nice fella's! thankyou all each n every one for your prompt and savvy answers to my questions. this has been a very informative post for me and I appreciate it.

looks like the need for a '71' in 348 is going to be on the horizon as soon as I get settled back in the world. sounds like it will be just the medicine for that 7 year old western Oregon bull elk that I am just sure is growing fat and growing a full set of antlers for me. I just know he is looking forward to our meeting as much as I am ... ok maybe not but I can imagine anyway. I will have nephews down there for the packing of the heavy stuff. cant wait.

[JFE]

You won't regret it. I think every levergunner needs to have tried a 71 at least once in their life. When they are slicked up they are very smooth. I have had a 24" rifle and 20" carbine and I reckon the carbine is better balanced, quicker to shoulder and easier to carry.

[Red River Rick]

Ted:

If you get yourself a 71' in .348, grab all the brass you can, when you can. That stuff is hard to come by at the best of times.

Keep us posted if and when you do.

RRR

[taco650]

Ted:

If you get yourself a 71' in .348, grab all the brass you can, when you can. That stuff is hard to come by at the best of times.

Keep us posted if and when you do.

RRR

And a good mold so you can cast your own! ;-)

[fouronesix]

Even the WW ammo boxes for the 348 were special. :)

[M-Tecs]

I have a Browning 1886 45/70 rifle and a carbine. Anybody have any idea how close they are to the real 86’s or 71’s?

[fouronesix]

If worried about the Roosevelt dino-elk you can step it up a notch. I really like the price written on this box. $6.85 :)

[Vaughn]

The pedersoli will never feed satisfactorily, it is a 71 clone and you will note that Winchester only ever chambered the mod 71 in 348 Winchester and no other calibre. The issue is the elimination of the carrier hook so cleverly designed by Browning, it holds the big 45 by the case rim firmly in the carrier and at the precise moment it drops out of engagement as the big slug chambers faultlessly. I bought one of these rifles and I can tell you that they are junk, mine would not even go bang it had that much headspace, It would not extract. These models would possibly work with the 348 Winchester Cartrige but because of the lack of the carrier hook the big 45/70 is thrown out of the action by the acceleration of the carrier on its upward journey. I would not advise anyone to buy one of these rifles as they are not good. For similar money you can buy the Miroku made Browning or Winchester. Cheers Vaughn

[NSB]

The pedersoli will never feed satisfactorily, it is a 71 clone and you will note that Winchester only ever chambered the mod 71 in 348 Winchester and no other calibre. The issue is the elimination of the carrier hook so cleverly designed by Browning, it holds the big 45 by the case rim firmly in the carrier and at the precise moment it drops out of engagement as the big slug chambers faultlessly. I bought one of these rifles and I can tell you that they are junk, mine would not even go bang it had that much headspace, It would not extract. These models would possibly work with the 348 Winchester Cartrige but because of the lack of the carrier hook the big 45/70 is thrown out of the action by the acceleration of the carrier on its upward journey. I would not advise anyone to buy one of these rifles as they are not good. For similar money you can buy the Miroku made Browning or Winchester. Cheers Vaughn
I bought one and it would not feed. Interior parts were unbelieveably rough. Sent it back and got another one. Even worse. Pure junk with no reliable service or warranty repair in place in N America. I ended up buying a Win/Miroku 1886 and had Turnbull retro fit it and CCH it. It is flawless in looks, performance, and accuracy. No tang safety and rebounding hammer. Great gun before Turnbull and fantastic gun afterwards. Pedersoli did a lousy job on their 86/71 gun. A few guys claim they work fine. Lots more complain they don't.

[quilbilly]

thanks for these answers ... I have another question now to go with the first ones ... how is the 348 WCF in power, recoil, ballistics? does it compare better or worse then the 33 WCF?

I am looking for a lever that has better ballistics then the 45-70 and enough to do a smackdown on a western Oregon elk {Roosevelt} ... much the same as the 45-70 with a 400 grain boolit would do ... or a 400 grain loaded 40-65. I used to have a M71 348 and took several Roosevelt elk with it on both the Oregon and later Washington coasts. It definitely had the necessary power and loved it. Finally it became too valuable to take out into the monsoons and devils club so I traded it since I am a user, not a collector (got a screaming deal though). I replaced it with a 444 Marlin just before switching to muzzleloader hunting for Roosevelts using the same boolits in the muzzleloader with sabot as used in the 444.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

The Winchester 71 is a well built lever that as previously pointed out began life as a 33 and developmentally they went from there. It is a powerful round that is adequate for just about all big game in the western hemisphere. Case dimensions are somewhat bigger than the 45-70 and brass is pricey. It became a favorite for wildcat conversions especially with the guides and hunters of the biggest bears in Alaska. Some of the conversions required reinforcing the guns as the recoil aside from being punishing, was hard on the guns as well. The Winchester model 1886 was/is a formidable weapon again capable of dealing with dangerous game. It is big, heavy..especially with a full length octagon barrel and full magazine and is more than adequate for the biggest game on this side of the planet. I have one that began life as a 38-56 and would have kept it as such but the previous owner ruined the chamber by trying to remove a ruptured case with an ice pick. I had to have it rebored to 45-70 and got a recommended loading from the NRA technical staff of 53 grains of 30-31 with a 405 grain bullet. With a curved buttplate it was not really fun to shoot, less still to lug around in the woods for a day. Many of the calibers offered originally were quite popular with the hunting community for many years. Winchester's model 1895 also featured a number of powerful calibers especially the 405WCF. It was touted as being a favorite with T. Roosevelt who took it to Africa and thought that it was a good performer on Lion. Several hunters of known repute disagreed with him. Nevertheless the 405 packs a lot of power although the stock design was known for making the recoil more than most shooters care for. It is, as are the M71/348 and the M1886-in the largest calibers originally offered, more than sufficient for the largest game you would find in North America. Modern times now offer many large(r) calibers that now are as powerful or moreso than these three outlined, but reloading and shooting these veterans is still a source of pleasure for whoever owns one or more of them. LLS

[W.R.Buchanan]

I completely understand the topic of this thread and see the possibilities however defiling an original M71 seems sacrilegious unless it has major problems. I wouldn't care so much about modding a Miroku version, but they aren't exactly cheap guns either.

In any event this seems like an expensive proposition, and would be very costly to anyone but a gunsmith who already had the gun, and also had the time to work on it. Also as far a resale the market for this gun would be narrow as most people who want a M71 also want a .348 Winchester.

I have seen a picture of an M71 made in 1935 in 45-70 and it is similar in nature to the .45 ACP Lugers. I believe there were only a few made. These guns are really worth some money.

As far as converting the gun to any other caliber than .45-70, or maybe one of the "Alaskan" calibers I would think long and hard about it.

You will have something that you might want, but very few others would want. Eventually,,, pretty much all guns eventually get sold, and we always need to remember this when modifying any gun. The question becomes will anyone else want the thing down the road?

Another approach might be to modify a Marlin 1895, which can be bought new for $5-700 and would be significantly easier and less expensive to modify and achieve pretty much the same thing.

Randy

[NSB]

Randy makes some excellent points here. Think it over well before doing anything.

[tygar]

Everything said is good. Don't screw with a original unless it's already screwed up. A "new/used" M71 can be had for 700-1k or more but is no big deal to covert. The most usual & I guess favorite, at least in AK, was the .450 Alaskan. Just a necked up .348. It is not far off from a .458. It was a favorite of AK guides. It has been on my "to do" list for awhile.

[EDG]

There are a few 71s around in 33 Win caliber. They may have been returned to Winchester to be barreled with an 86 barrel.

What I wanted to add was a photo of a M71 bolt. The ejector is a heart shaped piece in the bolt face that goes clear to the firing pin hole. I always thought that part of the M71 design stunk.

129113

[bigted]

thankyou again all. I have several fish to fry before getting back into the game but dreamin don't cost much if there is no coin to tempt the action portion ... :groner: