577-450 and CBC brass.load data?

[zuke]

I recently picked up a Martini Henry in 577-450 and want to start loading for it.
I have 50 formed CBC 24 gauge brass I plan to use in it.
Paper patching isn't a problem, but what powder's/load's do I use in it?

[enfield]

Are you looking for smokeless or BP load data, they hold a LOT of BP so something to take up the space above about 75-85 gr is easier on you and your supply of BP. I wouldn't recommend cream of wheat or cornmeal as it tends to turn into a solid block that has a hard time getting through the bottle neck. as far as smokeless goes there is a list I stumbled on a while ago from cybershooters listing 4759, blue dot, green dot, RL7, unique etc. https://www.mail-archive.com/cybershooters@compuserve.com/msg02066.html . I have tried 25 gr of 4759 and if I remember correctly it worked o.k, I'm also a bit weary about using trailboss, I understand it can reach some pretty high pressures without much velocity, I did try 10 - 12 gr of it just for fun, very quiet and slooowww moving boolits. I read a few posts of people using up to 27 gr and that sounds like WAYYYYY too much. USE CAUTION , they were meant to shoot BP so all these smokeless loads can be risky.

[zuke]

I'd like to use smokeles. I even picked up a can of Pyrodex to try out!
I got the die's today, so it look's like it'll be this weekend I get to try it out!

[Boz330]

Go to this forum for more info http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ but I would be very cautious with smokeless in that case. It will hold in excess of a 115gr of BP. The original load was 85gr of BP with wool to fill the remainder of the case. Kapok will do the same thing although I never had much luck with accuracy and Kapok. One of the moderators over there did quite a bit of experimentation with 4198 or 4895, I don't remember which but it is probably a sticky there somewhere.

Bob

[zuke]

I've done some looking around and have a couple question's,
1)What kinda wool? small ball? cleaning patch size?
2) Where does one find kapok nowaday's?

[Tackleberry41]

I have had good luck with the rubber washers sold by the 10 pack in the plumbing department to take up space in the converted 24ga, even the regular drawn brass ones. You have to punch out the center a little to fit around the primer tower in the 24ga. 2 will stack in there, reduces the 24ga down to about the original BP load.

I tried some of the smokeless loads out there, 4198 had alot of hang fires and just no fires. Bullet would jump forward a little, find a big wad of partially burnt 4198 in the neck of the case. Just to much capacity I guess. Hadnt seen the chart using blue dot and others, give em a try someday soon. Had good luck with TB, not the max loads some use, but 22gr works good.

I invested in 2 of the McAce inserts to use 45-70 in mine. As long as its a british made rifle vs the Nepalese ones. Nepalese I have the neck is just a little smaller so had to shave a little off the inserts to get them to chamber.

[enfield]

Tell me more of this plumbing washer thing. sounds interesting, I assume they don't try to blow out of the case, what about cleaning, do they stay in ??

[Tackleberry41]

Ones I have are "Danco 3/8 flat faucet washers" sell em with all the repair parts at lowes. They have some beveled ones vs flat, and up or down sizes. They are a tight fit thru the neck but almost perfect fit in the bottom of a case. Nice hole in the center for your primer flash. As is they work in the drawn brass cases, you can enlarge the center if you wish. The converted 24 ga, you have to punch the center to fit the primer tower. I push em thru the neck then seat them firmly with a punch or something similar that will fit.

I have never had one make it out of the case, you might see one sitting side ways where it came loose during firing, but all the pressure is seating them vs driving them out. I have tried 3 but didnt get great ignition, so 2 seems the limit. BP your gonna have to fish them out to clean, not so easy sometimes, and probably why they dont come out when fired. I have had good luck using them with trail boss, in 24 ga brass. No need for kapok or anything else.

Have considered using epoxy to fill the base of the 24 ga, just have other projects to mess with.

[curator]

I have had success using 23-25 grains of SR4759 along with a tuft of dacron to keep the powder next to the primer. This powder charge and the Lee .475/400FP boolit, unsized, cast from 30/1 lead/tin is fun to shoot, accurate, clean and appears to be low pressure.

[zuke]

I've been looking for Dacron at the local Fabric Land and when I asked they looked at me funny. They had roll's of a polyester fiber fill so I bought a 10cm x 1 meter section. That cost me $0.75.
But did I buy the right stuff?

[aap2]

Zuke: I don't have much experience with wads or fillers in the 577/450, but I have had good luck with 14 grains of Unique and 400 grain boolits, no wads, no fillers and no problems. Just be careful not to double charge, 14 grains of Unique gets lost in that big case.

[zuke]

Zuke: I don't have much experience with wads or fillers in the 577/450, but I have had good luck with 14 grains of Unique and 400 grain boolits, no wads, no fillers and no problems. Just be careful not to double charge, 14 grains of Unique gets lost in that big case.

Thank's!
Got a machinist friend to make me up a reloading tray for the big case's, now to start to load

[sthwestvictoria]

I am not reloading yet but still researching this cartridge. I have found only one factory load so far by ADI/Thales using the ADI powder AR2207 (H4198 to the cousins):
102728
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide/pdfs/130117_Handloaders_guide_6th_edition_WEB.pdf

Which is a bit over the 40% of the 85grain BP load (86x.4 is 34grains) 4198/BP substitute rule of thumb.
However there is no pressure information or information about wads or fillers or even primer used, it makes you wonder if they actually shot it or just cadged the data from somewhere.

Curiously, for the company that manufacturers Trail Boss there is also no data for Trail Boss?

From reading there seems to be a few different approaches to reloading the 577/450:
1. standard BP loads with wads, wax (or BP substitutes)
2. smokeless loads, fast powder without filler or mid-speed powder like 4198 with/without filler
3. lathe turned cases with reduced internal volume (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_n3DTEBAJ0), approximating 45-70 volumes then BP or smokeless.
4. adapters that allow the use of 45 long colt (buckshot has a thread on this here (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?92461-577-450-MH-loads/page2&highlight=martini+nitro))

[zuke]

Here's a simple yet big question for the guy's with experiance.
What can I use for a case filler? I've got feeler's out for old life jacket's/kapoc but can I use Fiberglass pink insulation?
Yes? no?

[enfield]

I wouldn't use Fiber Glass Pink for lots of reasons. As for smokeless fillers, Find an old winter coat and rip it open, most of them have something pretty much like Dacron in them for insulation. Don't use synthetic filler with Black Powder though.

[curator]

Dacron/Polyester "batting" is available at most fabric stores in small rolls of 30"X48 inches. The stuff I have bought is about 5/8" thick uncompressed. I cut one-inch strips with scissors, then cut strips every one-inch to make neat squares for use in the 577/40MH. After loading the powder charge I use a standard pencil to push the fluffy squares down on top of the charge and allow it to expand without packing. While Ross Siefried recommended filling the case with Dacron filler, I have found no benefit to using more than one of these squares as long as the loaded ammo is stored base down and not handled roughly. I have experimented using 1, 2, 3, and 4 squares, and all worked fine but more dacron made for a mess at the rifle range. I have been using 60+ year old pull-down SR4759 powder and the dacron wad is necessary to get consistent ignition in the cavernous converted 24 gauge brass cases. Working with new IMR4198 I got similar results; either hang-fires or extreme velocity differences without the tuft of dacron. I suppose just about any inert fiber would work but I had problems with getting uniform amounts kapok, carded wool, and cotton to work as well (they all lack the expansion factor to stay put) and supplies are inconsistent where I live.

[zuke]

I picked up some "polyester filling material" from Fabric Land, and kapok is on the way.

[zuke]

Kapok is here! But when I went to use my used LEE dies they were full of "gunk" so their sitting in gasoline right now.

[Von Gruff]

A load that has worked well for me is 20 gn Green Dot with no filler behind a 465gn PP bullet from the 457-450 F Lee mould lapped out to .463 and pp with dressmaking pattern paper. CBC - Magtech 24g cases with Fed or Fiocchi LP primers.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0968_zps6f3e3377.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0968_zps6f3e3377.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0970_zpse60d3305.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0970_zpse60d3305.jpg.html)

[rollmyown]

Von Gruff, That is a very nice group. I'd be very interested to know what pressure and velocity those green dot loads are producing.

[sthwestvictoria]

Von Gruff, That is a very nice group. I'd be very interested to know what pressure and velocity those green dot loads are producing.

Velocity is written on the target at the bottom, around 11520fps. Pressure would be much harder to arrive at.

[Von Gruff]

Von Gruff, That is a very nice group. I'd be very interested to know what pressure and velocity those green dot loads are producing.

Average velocity was 1159fps from the three shots at 1153, 1172 and 1152. Had been loading the same bullet in a 458 Lott over 18.5gn for 1250 so used that as a starting point which gave me about 1130fps and worked through to the 20 gn load which improved accuracy and narrowed the velocity spread. 20.5 gr started to open things up again.

[rollmyown]

Thanks for the details V G, Sorry I missed the velocity number on the pic. It seems more mild than wild, but I'd love to see some measured pressure figures for that big ol MH case with all the loads out there. I'm pretty sure the real numbers (pressures) would be reassuring for some and sobering for others.

[Von Gruff]

All I can say about the pressure is that I neck size by having a 1/4 brass ring under the Lee FLS dia so that it leaves most of the case untouched except for the top end of the neck which is visible in this pic. I have a worn extractor that needs building up as it fails to touch the case rim, but the fired cases fall out by raising the muzzle.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0970_zpse60d3305.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo0970_zpse60d3305.jpg.html)

[rollmyown]

Your results speak for themselves. Congrats on your excellent stock work too. Very impressive work.

[sthwestvictoria]

As per below is an extract from an old gun digest treasury demonstrating the approach for turning up brass for the 577/450:
103485
I have it as the original pdf scan however couldn't work how to add it so saved this jpg picture, however the forum software keeps re-sizing it down too small. I think that if you look at this link it will link to a fullsized, more legible picture:
http://tinypic.com/r/144d6yb/8

[zuke]

I tried several powder's last weekend, but this pic is the result of 25gr of 4759 held with a dacron tuft.
When I pulled the trigger the hammer fell and that was the only sound. I poped out the case and had to use the cleaning rod to get this out.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/577-450_zps77505a00.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

The force of the primer blew the wad of Dacron forward which vastly increased the volume, dropped the flame temp and prevented ignition. As mentioned on the other thread a filler should be used, not a wad. I suggest a size of around 1 - 1 1/2 gr will work. Key is to fill the airspace between the powder and the base of the bullet.

A reading of my post #4 in http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers will explain the proper use of a Dacron filler. That is the best filler to use BTW for your application.

Larry Gibson

[zuke]

I'll use 3-4 square's this weekend.
Do you have a link to the post you mentioned above?

[zuke]

Went out again and what a differance!
I have both real kapok and the artificial stuff, and it take's a lot more of the real stuff to get to the same 1 1/2gr weight of filler.

[zuke]

Tried 2 grain's of both dacron and kapok and didn't like the look's of the fired case's with all the soot, so instead tried 2 square's of toilet paper inserted one at a time and have had success!!

[zuke]

15 grain's of 700X is looking like the winner. Tried it today at 400 yard's and it was almost hitting where I was aiming.

[sthwestvictoria]

Sounds interesting. Do you know what sort of velocity with the 700X loads?
It looks like a fairly fast powder (like our AS50N or Hodgdon International) so did you decide to use it without a filler or with?

[zuke]

Don't know the velocity, but I used 2 "square's" of toilet paper inserted one at a time and pushed down for my case filler.

[Newtire]

I read about using backer rod as filler so tried it and it does work. I used 24 grains of 4759 and the x-ring 500 grain .470". I am going to try the 400 grain bullet next. Want to load up some using Black MZ. The stuff works great in everything else!