Success with browning 45-70 bpcr with olde eynsford

[LynC2]

Well, it was finally a good day for shooting as the winds weren't the 30-40 mph we have had lately. I've had a Browning BPCR in 45-70 that I have been wanting to try, but have been waiting on a "money" style .442 PP mold on order to try.
Well I couldn't stand the wait and loaded some Lyman 457132's over 62.0 grs of OE compressed just enough to seat it and chamber using Rem. cases and 9 1/2 primers. They were cast of coww sized to .459 and lubed with the Mathew's lube. I wiped 2 damp and 1 dry patch between shots with a water mixture of Murphy's soap and Ballistol.
The best part was when one of my shooting buddies walked down range and saying something to the effect of "Holy Craaaap". :lol: 5 shot group @ 100 yds, but I cheated and had a scope on the rifle. Subtract .458 from that reading and I think that is a pretty good start.

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu312/LynC2/IMG_0057-Copy_zps9e0d82d7.jpg (http://s659.photobucket.com/user/LynC2/media/IMG_0057-Copy_zps9e0d82d7.jpg.html)

[Don McDowell]

That's some dang nice shooting.

[bigted]

that IS a grand group! I love to see these groups as I also have the same rifle and my endless pursuit with paperpatch has led me to a standstill with the greasers as they sadly took back seat BUT ... I see that it may behoove me to return to the greasers and try for some tight groups with this nice shooter.

so my quest is to fully understand what folks do for their success ... so with the 2 damp and 1 dry patch treatment ...

- how damp?
- just a simple push thru or do you scrub them back n forth a few times?
- do you take time to dry the chamber completely or is this a thing for your success?
- Mathews lube ... meaning the bee wax/vaseline?

thanks for explaining to a nosey ol grump.

[LynC2]

Thanks, but it may well be a fluke or fall apart at long range. I'm pretty green at this game and haven't shot any BP in the last 40 years which was in a muzzle loader. I have been reading everything here and have a couple of books on the subject; however this place is a gold mine of information.
The Mathew's lube formula I made was:
2 parts yellow beeswax
1 part Pure Neatsfoot Oil
1 part Murphy’s Oil Soap
Nobade tells me he prefers the Pearl Lube formula, but I have yet to try that one.
As far as the two damp cleaning patches, I just squeezed the excess water mix out of them by hand and followed with a dry patch to dry the chamber and bore of any excess water. Just pushed straight thru the bore, no back and forth motion. It certainly isn't anything I came up with on my own as seems to be a pretty standard procedure from what I have been reading. I'm a real greenhorn at this still with a lot to learn; however like the old saying: "Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then". ;-)

[Don McDowell]

That load may very well hold up to sillouette distance, but there is a good chance in windy conditions 800 yd hits on the target might be more of a matter of luck.... The Chronograph can tell you right quick if it stands a chance of making further distance or not. 1175 or more will make the long range shooting better.

[Nobade]

Nice! It's good to see that new rifle shooting so well right off the bat. Looks like I am going to have some tough competition before long on the silhouettes. Congratulations!

-Nobade

[LynC2]

That load may very well hold up to sillouette distance, but there is a good chance in windy conditions 800 yd hits on the target might be more of a matter of luck.... The Chronograph can tell you right quick if it stands a chance of making further distance or not. 1175 or more will make the long range shooting better.

Don, thanks for the long range information. I'll have to chrograph it next time and also see if it groups at 200 or 300 yds also. I'm still planning on the PP money mold anyway, I just hope I can get it to shoot decently.

[LynC2]

Just do not over clean with gg bullets or you could get some leading, so far I would say you got a hummer of a load.

KW

Kenny, good to know! I still have a lot to learn about this game, but thanks to reading posts that people like you, Don, Nobade and a number of others have made here I have learned a lot lately.

[LynC2]

Nice! It's good to see that new rifle shooting so well right off the bat. Looks like I am going to have some tough competition before long on the silhouettes. Congratulations!

-Nobade

Nobade, I doubt you have much to worry about the way you and your loads shoot. :grin:

[Lead pot]

The rifle and load is definitely showing what you and that combination can do. That's for sure!
Just don't get to discouraged if it don't happen every time you take it out. That is the nature of the beast....
Kenny is right. wiping a bore shooting a GG your removing the lube the previous bullet left behind. If you are shooting a bullet that has a long bore riding nose there is a lot of bare dry lead if your one that wipes the loaded bullet down taking the excess lube off the exposed lead. The only thing that does is, it makes a pretty looking bullet sticking out of the case mouth :-) and it leaves lead behind in that dry clean bore when the bullet expands when it is fired.
I resist wiping the bore as much as I can shooting a GG bullet or I make sure I have a light coating of lube on the bullet nose like a .22 rimfire round has.
But that just my way.

[bigted]

amazing the things that escape a person ... probably been written before here but I missed it all times in the past ... thanks Lead Pot ... I believe that's the first time I have read about {er it finally soaked in} lubing the boolit nose with the boolit lube before chambering ... that's a great tip and I will try it out. my quest thus far has been for loads that require no ... or very little attention to fouling ... so ... my path has been fraught with disappointment and frustration at times ... but ... I know a bunch of things that DONT work now ... LOL ... :roll:

[LynC2]

An update on my previous post with the load using O.E. with the Lyman Postell boolit. I retried the load, but this time using a blow tube instead of wiping between shots. The group wasn't near as good, but definitely shows potential. Even though it has one way out, the other 4 are in just a hair over 1/2". It may well have been "shoulder mirage" as I had already fired over 40 rounds of PP boolits that I was testing; however I would have called all shots good. I won't mention the PP results as they weren't much to talk about; besides I'll probably get a lecture from NOBADE that I screwed up something. Well, ok he is likely correct. :lol:
As a side note this Badger barrel really cleans up nicely requiring only 3 damp patches and a dry one with no signs of leading. I have to rate it up there with my experience with Kriegers as far as quality.
I didn't get a chance to try it at 200 yds or chronograph it as the "spray & pray gang" had taken over most of the range and I didn't want to put up with that issue.
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu312/LynC2/IMG_45-70_zpsff2e5a8f.jpg (http://s659.photobucket.com/user/LynC2/media/IMG_45-70_zpsff2e5a8f.jpg.html)

[Don McDowell]

Lots of things could have caused that outside flier. As it's staying pretty much with the horizontal, it's possible a little puff of wind could of walked it out like that.

[EDG]

Walking speed is about 4 mph.
I have seen a walking speed breeze- not much of a breeze either move a 500 grn govt style 458 bullet almost exactly 1 inch at 100 yards several times.


Lots of things could have caused that outside flier. As it's staying pretty much with the horizontal, it's possible a little puff of wind could of walked it out like that.

[LynC2]

Walking speed is about 4 mph.
I have seen a walking speed breeze- not much of a breeze either move a 500 grn govt style 458 bullet almost exactly 1 inch at 100 yards several times.

I hadn't really thought about that possibility, but that could well be the case. It was a nice day, but there were often pickups from about 6 to 10 mph and I may have well missed one. I was more concerned about breaking a good shot than looking at the wind by the time I shot that group. By that time my shoulder was beginning to get a bit tender. :lol:

[Tom Myers]

Walking speed is about 4 mph.
I have seen a walking speed breeze- not much of a breeze either move a 500 grn govt style 458 bullet almost exactly 1 inch at 100 yards several times.

Yep, it don't take much of a wind gust to mess up a good group.
According to calculations, A 5.75mph 8:00 O'clock or 10:00 O'clock quartering wind will have a left wind vector of 5 mph and will move a 45 Cal Postell bullet exactly 1 inch at 100 yards.



[http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Wind/Postell5mphwind.png


http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Wind/Postell5mphwindchart.png

[LynC2]

Thanks Tom, I have shot hi-power and Palma competition for so long that I think along those ballistic parameters. I need to be thinking more like a small bore shooter while shooting. [smilie=b:

[Don McDowell]

I shot the bptr midrange national matches with a reformed highpower and palma shooter. He had a terrible time digesting that a breeze that wouldn't even make a 168 gr smk blink, will throw a shot out into the 7 ring...

[TXGunNut]

Wow, nicely done!

[Chill Wills]

LynC2, It looks like a very nice grouping load!
Did I miss the velocity of 62grs with the Postell ? If I did sorry. Tom, in his great software offers the velocity at 1195, which would be great for any midrange or silhouette match.
If this load does not produce that - if it is maybe something more like 100 fps less at 1090 - 1110 FPS your accurate load may give you some trouble at the longer targets.

In my very abbreviated load work-up with 2F Olde Eynsford, powder charges in 60 - 62grain area were running in the low elevens. They will work but a little more speed is desirable.

BTW - great looking target! -Michael Rix

[LynC2]

Thanks Michael, no I haven't had a chance to chronograph it yet. I am also going to up the powder charges to about 65 and 70 grs and try that for velocity and grouping the next decent day we have. I may have to sacrifice a chicken to the wind gods in order to get a decent day at this time of the year! :lol:

[LynC2]

Just a quick update. I made a trip to the range today to try out 70 grs. of OE with the Lyman Postell at 100 yds. It really wasn't a very nice day, but the best we will have for a week according to the weatherman. There was a gusting wind from 11 to 2 O'clock from about 12 to 18 MPH and moving me around a bit while trying to break decent shots. Being a bit nippy didn't help either. I was hoping for some chronograph readings and shoot some groups at 200 yds, but that was not to be. :( Anyway here is the group which I thought was decent for the conditions. I'm really enjoying this rifle. I can't believe how accurate these big old BP cartridges can shoot in a good rifle. It's also a good thing I didn't make a wager with someone, I would have lost my shirt!

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu312/LynC2/45-704-24-142014-04-24001_zps8cc8d19c.jpg (http://s659.photobucket.com/user/LynC2/media/45-704-24-142014-04-24001_zps8cc8d19c.jpg.html)

[Don McDowell]

Looking pretty good.
When I chronographed 70 grs OE and the postel when OE first hit the streets, I got right at 1220 fps with the 2f.

[Nobade]

Aah Lyn, it's looking good! I see you are coming around to the true way of shooting after all.....

-Nobade

[Gunlaker]

Nice shooting. It sure feels good when it all comes together :-)

The old technology sure works well. I know that a lot of people at the range often have misconceptions about how accurate these rifles can be, and how well a person can shoot with aperture sights.

I imagine those'll hold up well at 200 too.

Chris.

[LynC2]

Don, thanks for the velocity reading. That sounds like my 70 gr load may be going fast enough to use on the steel critters if I don't find a better long range load. I was just informed yesterday my bore riding Money style PP mold was shipped so I have another one to try soon.
Yes Nobade, you have converted me to the "dark side". Next thing you will have me making my own BP. OH the horrors that await me! ;)
Gunlaker, you are right about how accurate they are. I just think most people never saw a good BP rifle and shooter in action. I know I had never seen it before I started playing this game.
Now for my newbie confession of the day. :veryconfu I fired my first fouling round and couldn't get the second shot to chamber. I pulled the round out and put another one in and it wouldn't chamber either. What the H#$*! Then it dawned on me, I hadn't used the blow tube and there was just enough fouling to prevent chambering. Yup, I am a slow learner at times.

[Gunlaker]

That velocity will be all you need and more for silhouettes. My Shiloh uses that bullet and 69gr of Goex FFg Express and comes in right around 1150 fps.

Chris.

[LynC2]

Well I finally managed to get some chronograph numbers in spite of the wind. The weatherman said it was going to be a calm day. :evil: OK, it was compared to a lot of days lately, about 10 to 15 mph with gusts in the 20's. It generated a lot of errors by blowing my sky screens back and forth. Anyway for 5 shots each:

1) 62.0 grs of OE with Lyman Postell
1148 Lo, 1163 Hi, 15 ES, 1154 Av. with 6 SD

2) 70.0 grs of OE with Lyman Postell
1229 Lo, 1234 Hi, 10 ES, 1227 Av. with 4 SD

[Chill Wills]

1) 62.0 grs of OE with Lyman Postell
1148 Lo, 1163 Hi, 15 ES, 1154 Av. with 6 SD

2) 70.0 grs of OE with Lyman Postell
1229 Lo, 1234 Hi, 10 ES, 1227 Av. with 4 SD

OK LynC2, I am looking for the wind free days to test Olde Eynsford too and having your luck. Like you, I did get some chronograph numbers in the gusts.
I wonder what your compression and group size is for the two above loads? Load #1 must be close to zero compression and load #2 must be ??? in the 0.225" 0.275" area? Depending on wads thickness and how the barrel leade is cut....

I feel like I need to go back and retest what I have done. My latest test for group with the chronograph was not as promising as was the first two times I tested in the bigger winds .:?::roll:
My latest target looked great but for the two high flyers well out of the group! I like the velocity for the loads running 70 + grains! I just need to tune the load up a bit..... before I run out of my sample of powder. My best loads were not using compression > 0.250". My sweet spot, if it is there, is running between zero and 0.200" with zero compression producing accuracy and too little velocity. Tho it might be fine for 200-300M, I like my silhouette loads to top 1200 fps and even better at 1250 fps. To do otherwise is to have high-low misses at the long targets.
Michael Rix

[Don McDowell]

I got ahold of some Remington 9 1/2's a while back and decided to use them for some shooting, just to save my br-2's, the group size improvement was astonishing, and stayed that way even on reshoot, and same loads in a second rifle.. Might be something about those primers this OE really likes.

[country gent]

Don Ive been using the rem 9 1/2s for awhile now and theu do work well for me all around. The primer shortage kept me from getting any magnum federals or others so Ive been using what I had on hand.

[LynC2]

Chill Wills here is a bit more info on my loads: I am using a 24" homemade drop tube to settle the power in the case and I am compressing it to .600 below the neck with only a newspaper over powder wad. My Postell comes out at 519 grs unlubed and is sized to .4595. My alloy is basically COWW with a bit of tin added for improved casting. My ctg. overall length is 2.932". At that length it pre-engraves the rifling in my rifle which has the typical Browning chamber which is SAMI specs. with no freebore, with only the sharp transition from the chamber to the rifling. The OE I am using is 1 1/2 F.

Don that is interesting you found the Rem 9 1/2's gave that much better accuracy. I know from my benchrest shooting days it could make a dramatic difference at times, but having no experience with BP I wasn't sure of what to expect. It looks like I might have gotten lucky with my first time choice. :-)

[Don McDowell]

Lyn, yes I think you swerved into something there, and I accidentaly did just the other day, and then I was reading your first post again, and wham there it was, two guns that are behaving super well with Eynsford and Remington.:mrgreen: I had never shot Remington primers other than in the occasional factory load, just never saw them on the shelves, but when Cabela's had them instock I decided what the heck bad primer better than no primer.

[Gunlaker]

The Remington large pistol primers can work pretty well too. I've recently gone through the better part of a brick in my .40-65 with excellent results. Goex FFFg Express though.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Yes Chris, Don, I like the Remington Primers too. The 2-1/2 Large pistol is my regular BP primer but for the old rifles that have the original breach block - large firing pin, I use rifle primers. The big old pins pierce pistol primers- not good.

[Don McDowell]

Mr. Wills, Klaus and Butch were regailing the vertues of the Remington large pistol primers as well, and watching those two shoot is about enough to make a believer out of a fella.
Hopefully plans work out and we'll be at the CRC 1000 yd range Saturday afternoon, to give this Eynsford and Remington primers a trial by fire.

[LynC2]

Mr. Wills, Klaus and Butch were regailing the vertues of the Remington large pistol primers as well, and watching those two shoot is about enough to make a believer out of a fella.
Hopefully plans work out and we'll be at the CRC 1000 yd range Saturday afternoon, to give this Eynsford and Remington primers a trial by fire.

Don, hopefully you have some decent conditions to shoot. I know you guys get your share of the wind up there too. Let us know how it goes!

[Don McDowell]

Lyn if you ever decide to take the plunge into longrange shooting I would heatedly recommend you attend the matches at the Colorado Rifle Club at Byers Co. It's a great range populated by great folks to be around. I understand that Chill Wills also does a sillouette shoot at Watkins Co. the Saturday prior to the CRC longrange match. So a person really could make a weekend of it.

[Gunlaker]

Yes Chris, Don, I like the Remington Primers too. The 2-1/2 Large pistol is my regular BP primer but for the old rifles that have the original breach block - large firing pin, I use rifle primers. The big old pins pierce pistol primers- not good.

I know what you mean. I have an original Winchester Special Single Shot in .32-40 and once used large pistol primers in it. The pin didn't pierce the primer but the soft primer cup looked like it tried to flow around the pin a bit. I won't do that again :-)

Some years ago I bought a bunch of bags of Remington .45-70 brass that had shallow primer pockets. You can't seat a large rifle primer in them, but with a small amount of cleanup they work perfectly for large pistol primers. I use them in my new .40-65.

Chris.

[LynC2]

Lyn if you ever decide to take the plunge into longrange shooting I would heatedly recommend you attend the matches at the Colorado Rifle Club at Byers Co. It's a great range populated by great folks to be around. I understand that Chill Wills also does a sillouette shoot at Watkins Co. the Saturday prior to the CRC longrange match. So a person really could make a weekend of it.

Don, I'll keep that in mind. I know of the range at Byers from my high power days and it had a very good reputation for a nice range and a well run match. Unfortunately I never made it up there, even though a few of us were checking into it.

[Don McDowell]

Lyn I'm hoping to be there to shoot their monthly creedmoor this Sunday.
Looking forward to more of your reports.