Let's design the ultimate red dot sight for a hunting handgun

[DanWalker]

Here's a fun mental exercise. I'd like to tap into the VAST knowledge base that inhabits this forum.
Let's hear about your dream optic for a hunting handgun.
I'd like a red dot with a chevron or delta style reticle. Dots tend to appear indistinct or starry. I'd like to be able to use the point of the chevron as my aiming point. I'd like a rapid adjust, load specific elevation knob that once zeroed at 25 yards would allow you to quickly dial up your 50 or 75 or 100 yard zero. I want the reticle to be naturally illuminated so I don't have to worry about forgetting to shut it off and killing my battery. I'd like a quick change mounting system that would allow me to remove and replace the sight without losing my zero so that I could use my iron sights when I want to.
That's my list. I await your sage words of wisdom, gentlemen.....

[NSB]

After using red dot sights for over twenty-five years, and taking over fifty white tail with the handgun, I can tell you that they already make a few red dots that don't need any improvements. They satisfy every need for hunting. Two of them are the UltraDot4 and/or Burris FastFire3. They'll do anything you need to do with a handgun. Too many "needs" in your description in my opinion. I've never once had a battery die during hunting season. For safety's sake I keep a spare in my pack and it takes under a minute to change if it ever needs changed during the season. If you're hunting with a handgun you should be able to adjust your hold for different distances up to 100 yds. You're making it overly complicated. There are several other good sights out there also. I just named a couple that I've been using lately.

[DanWalker]

After using red dot sights for over twenty-five years, and taking over fifty white tail with the handgun, I can tell you that they already make a few red dots that don't need any improvements. They satisfy every need for hunting. Two of them are the UltraDot4 and/or Burris FastFire3. They'll do anything you need to do with a handgun. Too many "needs" in your description in my opinion. I've never once had a battery die during hunting season. For safety's sake I keep a spare in my pack and it takes under a minute to change if it ever needs changed during the season. If you're hunting with a handgun you should be able to adjust your hold for different distances up to 100 yds. You're making it overly complicated. There are several other good sights out there also. I just named a couple that I've been using lately.
Thanks for the input. Have you taken many wyoming deer elk or antelope with a handgun? I'm just wondering if I am being lectured by a treestand hunter who plugs corn crunchers from 50 yards out from a rest, or as your tone implies a seasoned multi species hunter with many years of handgun hunting over varied terrain both out east and out west (two forms of hunting as dissimilar as can be) The purpose of this thread was to design the what each of us thought was the ultimate red dot. I've handled and owned quite a few of them from as cheap as the 19 dollar walmart specials up to the leupold deltapoint. ALL were lacking in some regard for me.

[leftiye]

Make it work for guys with astigmatism, and I'm in for about six!

[bobthenailer]

I personaly use the aimpoint micro's on my big bore center fire hunting handguns.

[44man]

I am one of those stand hunters myself but also spot and stalk with shots to over 100 yards off hand. Sight about 1" high at 50 or dead on at 75 and there is no need for any adjustments.
I would like to see a focus adjustment so I don't have to wear prescription glasses.
As the day gets brighter I check the dot brightness needed so I can turn the dial that many clicks, since I never leave the light on until needed, batteries last me five years or more. It is as automatic to turn the dot on as it is to cock the hammer.
Some of the dots listed will not stay on a gun long with recoil or will bust internally. Some with adjustable dots will change POI with a change.

[45 2.1]

You described something rifle shooters already have. You need an ACOG suitable for handguns....... with farther range capabilities than you stated.

[ole 5 hole group]

I take it you're looking for a fast rig when walking coolies and that mulie jumps up, takes a quick look and is off at warp speed - the Leupold Deltapoint design comes close relative to size & weight to what you might be looking for - but as with all micro red dots on handguns, the problem is the mount. As you know, the red dot sits high on the frame and it takes a lot of practice to bring the handgun up and have the delta/chevron/dot instantly showing in the heads-up display.

The problem I found is after not practicing/using the red dot for a couple weeks - I could no longer bring the handgun from a holster into a shooting position and expect to see the delta - a little wiggle here and there got the delta to show up but it just didn't sit well with me. I found the solution using a 1911 but with a revolver - it'll take a lot of doing to get the red dot down on the same plane as your iron sights - but as with anything, if the market is there a solution will be found.

I think the battery/electronics would have to be relocated either to the side or on top of the display in order to get the heads-up display in the proper position like it is on the 1911 platform (have to mill the slide). Getting rapid and repeatable sight adjustments shouldn't be a problem - but I would think the cost would be a tad high for what we are looking for.

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[winelover]

Here's a fun mental exercise. I'd like to tap into the VAST knowledge base that inhabits this forum.
Let's hear about your dream optic for a hunting handgun.
I'd like a red dot with a chevron or delta style reticle. Dots tend to appear indistinct or starry. I'd like to be able to use the point of the chevron as my aiming point. I'd like a rapid adjust, load specific elevation knob that once zeroed at 25 yards would allow you to quickly dial up your 50 or 75 or 100 yard zero. I want the reticle to be naturally illuminated so I don't have to worry about forgetting to shut it off and killing my battery. I'd like a quick change mounting system that would allow me to remove and replace the sight without losing my zero so that I could use my iron sights when I want to.
That's my list. I await your sage words of wisdom, gentlemen.....

Most of the features you desire, I have been using for quite some time on my Redhawk. I used Kimber quick detachable double lever rings with a Armson OEG red dot. The Kimber base is low enough, that the open sights can till be used, if necessary. Another plus, is the revolver can still be used with belt holsters, upon removal of the scope/sight. The OEG red dot is battery free and self compensating for brightness. No switches to fumble with! Power for the sight is supplied by a tritium lamp with a better than 10 year life. Only thing it lacks is your chevron aiming point. Sadly, Trijicon, recently quit supporting this sight. That's the reason why I have a much inferior Ultradot, included in the picture.

101361


If you want a chevron, Trijicon offers them in their Reflex sights. I have one on my AR-10 and 1894 Marlin. Might be a bit large for a handgun. But doable, if you are willing to mount some type of rail system. Of course it would probably be too high for open sight usage. Here is one on my Marlin 1894.

101362

This is an older Trijicon Reflex with the smaller "Special Forces" one-minute red-dot. IIRC The base is from XS Sights and it allows use of open sights. It might be low enough for handgun sight usage, but you would have to modify it and be somewhat creative with its mounting.


Winelover

[kweidner]

I take it you're looking for a fast rig when walking coolies and that mulie jumps up, takes a quick look and is off at warp speed - the Leupold Deltapoint design comes close relative to size & weight to what you might be looking for - but as with all micro red dots on handguns, the problem is the mount. As you know, the red dot sits high on the frame and it takes a lot of practice to bring the handgun up and have the delta/chevron/dot instantly showing in the heads-up display.

The problem I found is after not practicing/using the red dot for a couple weeks - I could no longer bring the handgun from a holster into a shooting position and expect to see the delta - a little wiggle here and there got the delta to show up but it just didn't sit well with me. I found the solution using a 1911 but with a revolver - it'll take a lot of doing to get the red dot down on the same plane as your iron sights - but as with anything, if the market is there a solution will be found.

I think the battery/electronics would have to be relocated either to the side or on top of the display in order to get the heads-up display in the proper position like it is on the 1911 platform (have to mill the slide). Getting rapid and repeatable sight adjustments shouldn't be a problem - but I would think the cost would be a tad high for what we are looking for.

101358 101359101360


Oh heavens. A black widow Reeder. BIG DROOL FACTOR! Please tell how it shoots. Have been DREAMING about him making me an ultimate 41. Hijack over.

IMHO the ultradot already exists so I don't think I can make a red dot any finer.

[DanWalker]

I had the EXACT issue with my deltapoint you described. Always hunting for the dot. I also have an issue with my eyes that renders almost every dot I look at into a indistinct star when held at arms length, unless I turn my head sharply and look out the corner of my eye. Yes, a micro ACOG would be awesome! The price would also be pretty scary I imagine. The Trijicon RMR with delta reticle is pretty sweet and is probably as close to what I am after as is currently being manufactured. Please understand, I was not trying to denigrate treestand hunting for whitetails. I have done plenty of it over the years. I was just trying to state how much DIFFERENT it is compared to the spot and stalk hunting I do now. As sixshot said in one of his posts, shots are usually longer and seldom do you get the angle or presentation you would like.

[Larry Gibson]

Dan

Might want to define or at least be a little more descriptive of your idea of a "hunting handgun" before criticizing NSB or anyone else's choice? There is a difference between a 4" barreled .22LR or smaller CF "trail gun", a 4 - 5" barrel large caliber revolver used for close range hunting, a 6 - 8 3/8" revolver used for general hunting to 100 yards or so and a SS actioned handgun with a 10 - 15" barrel in a rifle cartridge used for longer range hunting.

Like NSB I find the Burris Fast Fire to be exactly what I find that meets all of my needs on my Ruger Bisley BH in .41 magnum. I zero it at 75 yards so no range adjustment is needed for deer, pigs, etc. to 100 yards (my own max distance with this handgun). I also have never had a problem with batteries dying as they last for a long, long time. Just put new ones in before hunting season and it's good for at least the whole year. I don't turn the sight on unless I have the revolver out of the holster and turn it off before reholstering. I will probably put Burris Fast Fires on my Ruger Security Six .357 w/6" barrel, my old model Vaquero 44-40 with 7 1/2" barrel and my BHFT .44 magnum for hunting use also as my eyesight continues to hide the darn sights from me.........

On my Contender barrels (.32 H&R, .357 Magnum and 44 Magnum) I have mostly 1.5 - 2.5X scopes as I want a bit of magnification and a more precise aiming reticle. I have a couple Contender barrels with iron sights as I don't need or want a scope or dot sight on them (9mm, 45 ACP and 45 Colt barrels). With one exception I keep my rifle cartridge Contenders as rifles. The exception being a 10" 22 Hornet barrel which has a 6X scope on it and is shot using the attached bipod mostly from a prone position.

Larry Gibson

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[DanWalker]

Larry, I wasn't criticizing anyone's choices. If it sounded like I was, I certainly apologize. I think some of you are missing the point of this thread. I wasn't asking for advice. I was asking EACH of you to offer your opinions as to what features you would like to see. I wasn't looking for tips or pointers on how to shoot whitetails from a treestand, or squirrels from a riverbottom, or muleys from coulies. Been there, done that, have my own experiences and opinions on that stuff. I wanted to know what you would tell the engineers gathered eagerly around you, clipboards in hand, wanting to know what you would want them to build as your ultimate handgun optic.

[ole 5 hole group]

Oh heavens. A black widow Reeder. BIG DROOL FACTOR! Please tell how it shoots. Have been DREAMING about him making me an ultimate 41. Hijack over.

Hijack on:
Shoots mighty fine - no leading, which is great but that 5-shot cylinder is really overkill!!!

[NSB]

Thanks for the input. Have you taken many wyoming deer elk or antelope with a handgun? I'm just wondering if I am being lectured by a treestand hunter who plugs corn crunchers from 50 yards out from a rest, or as your tone implies a seasoned multi species hunter with many years of handgun hunting over varied terrain both out east and out west (two forms of hunting as dissimilar as can be) The purpose of this thread was to design the what each of us thought was the ultimate red dot. I've handled and owned quite a few of them from as cheap as the 19 dollar walmart specials up to the leupold deltapoint. ALL were lacking in some regard for me.
Dan, sorry you got your panties in a bunch over my answer. You set the criteria of a 100 max distance and then went on to talk about bullet drop, etc. How much adjusting are you going to do other than hold a couple of inches high or low depending on how you sight in? If you were talking about long range hand gunning, you'd have gotten a different answer. You're also talking about hunting, not shooting the center out of a target off a bench. I gave you a very practical answer based on many years of hunting and also target shooting. I have been hunting with a handgun for over forty years and I've been very successful at it. I was also a very top ranked competition shooter for many years. I've met very few handgun shooters who can shoot better than I can....very few. I wasn't taking a guess, I was giving you what I thought was a good answer. I've owned at least twenty-five or more red dots over the years and have several on guns right now.

[DanWalker]

*sigh* Panties are NOT in a bunch. It's a thong, they're supposed to look that way. :)
I think you're missing the point of this thread. I'm sure you are a great handgun shot. I never claimed to be one. I wasn't asking for advice. I'm sure you've killed a truckload of whitetails. That's an irrelevant fact to me in this discussion.(numbers of dead critters don't make you an expert. I gunned professionally for a few years. I'd kill a dozen or more deer in a single night, hunting 6 nights a week, for months at a time. That don't make me an expert, just a guy who shot a lot of stuff.) The answer you gave me is what YOU thought I should use. I wasn't asking that. I was asking what YOU would like to see in YOUR ultimate hunting optic. Perhaps my initial setup of this thread was vague. I don't claim to be a handgun guru. I have only been seriously handgun hunting for about 8 years now. Before that I used handguns to take game as targets of opportunity. I don't want this to turn into some chest thumping ego fest. Thank you sir.

[Groo]

Groo here
OP----
The sight should be usable with the iron sights on the gun.
This means that most sights need to be inverted.
The battery should be changeable without changing the zero, either a battery tray or return to zero mount.
With modern LED's the battery will last months if not years turned on so an on/off switch is not needed.
A brightness switch [ like inside/outside] with an auto adj /and or motion switch.

[DanWalker]

I like the leupold idea about the sight turning off when held still for a prescribed period and then turning on when you pick the gun up. My problem with batteries is that they would last for a long time. I'd wind up with a 2 or 3 year old spare battery in my backpack that would be dead as a hammer, and when I forgot to switch my sight off and it died after a few days, I'd be stuck a half days drive away from the nearest paved road with a dead optic. I like the tritium fiber optic combination that Trijicon uses in their RMR. I'd like to see more done with that concept. The issue with losing zero to swap batteries in the leupold deltapoint REALLY chapped my rear end. The chance of my fat fingers dropping one of those little mounting screws and losing it forever in the leaf litter around hunting camp is another deterrent from owning another one of them.

[44man]

Aside from strength, I still say a focus adjustment is the top complaint from me.
When I got into the big calibers I called Bushnell and Burris and was told "no" for certain models on my .475, etc. I ruined cheaper dots on my .44. The front prism would pop out so I had to steel bed the glass back in. I seen mount screws shear.
I tested one with adjustable dot configurations to see the POI change all over the paper with any change.
But the "star" we see from old eyes is the worst. Yet you can kill deer with it anyway.
Cost is a factor and I will not pay more for a dot then I paid for the gun to have it break.
The tritium stuff is OK but you must understand how fast 10 years goes by so you will need the stuff replaced. It used to be 5 years. Fiber optic stuff gets brittle and breaks too. No good in early or late hunting anyway.
Some of the sights shown will be destroyed on my guns before even sighting in.

[44man]

Many dots are made for the AR's. NOT for revolvers with recoil. Will a $1700 Acog take a .500?

[Whiterabbit]

ULTIMATE red dot? For me, make the leupold deltapoint work BACKWARDS. That way, the window can sit where the rear sight blade would, and you can still use normal holsters for the gun. Can't do that when the window is so far forward. Next, make the base the width of the frame, not weaver width. Would look aesthetically better.

[Changeling]

Ultra Dot, simple, efective, easy to adjust, cheap batteries. I find it to be absolutely awesome! Currently I have only one mounted on a Ruger MK I Heavy target barrel (.22). I will be getting another one soon!

[44man]

Ultra Dot, simple, efective, easy to adjust, cheap batteries. I find it to be absolutely awesome! Currently I have only one mounted on a Ruger MK I Heavy target barrel (.22). I will be getting another one soon!
Prices have gone up but it is still my choice. It has taken all recoil.
Do you really have the old Mark I? Super gun. Mine today are Mark II's, I don't like the III.

[ole 5 hole group]

Many dots are made for the AR's. NOT for revolvers with recoil. Will a $1700 Acog take a .500?

I don't think there are many, if any, red dots from the major companies that won't hold up to as much recoil as any human would want to fool with. I know my Deltapoints and micro Aimpoints have held up to everything to include 50's and I know the RMR's have held up to everything thrown at them.

They have come a long way and are still improving - if they would just get a super low mount system for handguns - everything would be golden.

Right now handgunners want a super low mount and the AR people have to spend another C-note for a riser before they can properly mount a red dot on a typical AR rail. Everyone is making money except the end-user.:x

[mwest]

found this
http://www.seeallopensight.com/

[44man]

I broke many so the best is from experience from you fellas. I have had glass pull from Tasco's, Millets and Bushnell's. The worst are poor mount systems with one screw. I gutted a new Swift scope before sighting in. Lots of broken glass inside. I ruined soft Burris scope tubes.
I would call and ask if the thing would hold up to a .475 revolver or larger.

[Changeling]

Prices have gone up but it is still my choice. It has taken all recoil.
Do you really have the old Mark I? Super gun. Mine today are Mark II's, I don't like the III.

Hi Jim, I'll always have my Mark 1 that you put the Ultra Dot 4 on. I shot a ground hog yesterday afternoon from my deck. He was sitting in front of my barn like it was his new home, big mistake. That's the 3rd one this year so far from the deck.
It is the best shooting .22 Pistol I have ever owned especially with the Ultra Dot on it!


I just leave it on the table next to the sliding door, I don't even put it away any more, there's just to many GH's around here.

[44man]

I had the Mark I standard back in the 50's. Sold it to my brother in law and he still has it.
I forgot about you having it.

[Geraldo]

My shooting was going down the tubes until I got these miraculous little slabs of plastic in a metal frame. They're called 'glasses'. If you have astigmatism, get some.

I don't really want a red dot, I want Leupold to make their 1-5x illuminated reticle rifle scope in a handgun version.