Alright fellers, you have convinced me

[MBTcustom]

I have (I hope) taken another step in tbe right direction in my personal pursuit of the silver stream.
I now have a PID controller.

I bought the PID and thermocouple from ebay for about $60 and pulled a few favors from the technicians at my day job and they scrounged up a SSR, a switch, a project box, a wall outlet, a fuse holder, a power cord, and they even put on little rubber feet for me. LOL!

The technician that built it turned it on and calibrated it for me also. He apologized that it only seems to be able to provide +-1 degree F accuracy, but told me that if I need less than that, he can get me a mil-spec thermistor that will cut that into 1/10th (aerospace techs, go figure LOL!)
I told him I'm sure that +-1 degree was plenty good for what I will be using it for.

I will be able to use this unit on the lead pot as well as the Star lubesizer. We shall see what all the hype is about very soon.

[Love Life]

Convinced you of what? That my hair is a fantastic natural blonde color that makes hot women give me their phone numbers and buy me stuff?

[MBTcustom]

Convinced you of what? That my hair is a fantastic natural blonde color that makes hot women give me their phone numbers and buy me stuff?

"This hair is considered currency in certain countries in Europe..."

Thought you would have noticed by now. I can only edit a post at work, I can't start one. So I have to start the thread with my phone, then edit to fill in the rest of the post. PITA, but there it is.

[Love Life]

Just giving you a hard time.

[MBTcustom]

Ill slap some pictures up if it actually works as advertized. It should be pretty awesome. Im really interested in how well it will regulate the Star temperature.

[Love Life]

I don't know. That +- 1F may just cause your lube to go cold and your spout to freeze.

[MBTcustom]

Well, im sure it will work with the pot. But the cloths iron might give it some trouble.
I tell ya, my star is starting to look like an AR15 with all the doodads im strapping all over it.

[Love Life]

You should add tritium to the punch and sizer die opening so you can size in low light and darkness. That's operator as all get out.

[Walter Laich]

have you added the after-market coffee maker and the bagel warmer yet?
.
and don't forget the 2 gallons of prop-wash needed for lube

[cbrick]

I now have a PID controller.

Life is now good but without pictures it never happened. :mrgreen:

Rick

PS, don't forget the tin. :coffeecom

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well, im sure it will work with the pot. But the cloths iron might give it some trouble.
I tell ya, my star is starting to look like an AR15 with all the doodads im strapping all over it.

Laser guide...like on my Power miter saw :)

[tomme boy]

I have a laser on my circular saw. I have to lock up the cats if I use it in the basement. Don't want to loose and paws!

[dragon813gt]

Just a friendly heads up. Your lead pot and Star will most likely need different settings to maintain proper temps. It's as simple as writing the down the P, I and D values and manually entering them for whichever one you're using. I use my PID on my smoker and have to enter the values so I don't have to run the AutoTune feature every time.

[slim1836]

I just wish I had a P.I.D., however I am electronically and electrically challenged and don't have the extra bucks to buy one at retail price. I can tell that it would help me to consistently produce boolits closer to weight but have yet to find someone locally that could help me out in putting one together. I will however keep looking, I will have one someday. And this is going to save me money how?

Congratulations,

Slim

[MBTcustom]

Just a friendly heads up. Your lead pot and Star will most likely need different settings to maintain proper temps. It's as simple as writing the down the P, I and D values and manually entering them for whichever one you're using. I use my PID on my smoker and have to enter the values so I don't have to run the AutoTune feature every time.

Poppy cock! Balderdash! I run my lube at 750 F. If it smokes, you just aint running fast enough! LOL!


Actually, I think all I have to do is hold down the arrow key and reset the display like a kitchen oven. So far, it's pretty civilized!

OK, here's what you get when you have the tech team at an aerospace company build your PID for you! LOL!
101324

BTW, I am still not convinced in my mind that this doo-hicky is worth $180. You control boolit quality much more through mold temperature than alloy temperature and as long as you have a thermometer, you can make adjustments to the alloy as you please right?
This is more a convenience thing, and since I was able to get into it for low money, I figured why not? The downside is that now I will want to set it and walk away (like I did just now to type this message) and that is never a smart thing to do with a Lee pot.

However, I have written up how I test consistency in my consistency thread that I did over Christmas. Since I did all that testing, and I still have the mold, I will be able to tell very definitively if this PID thing makes a real difference or not.
We shall see!

[btroj]

Some of us don't work at aerospace tech companies.

Oh well, at least I can self medicate myself to sleep......

[geargnasher]

I used to work for the biggest aerospace company, and I guarantee there were no shenanigans like that allowed. Too stuffy for me, one of the reasons why I now work at a place (for 1/3 the money I used to make fixing union PA screw-ups) where I can do stuff like clean guns on the front parts counter and tumble brass in-between administrative and customer-service tasks. Oh, and screw off on Castboolits for a few minutes throughout the day after a getting through one of the frequent maximum-stress multitasking logjams.

Gear

[cbrick]

You control boolit quality much more through mold temperature than alloy temperature and as long as you have a thermometer, you can make adjustments to the alloy as you please right?

We shall see!

Very true! Mold temp can have much to do with boolit quality & weights BUT (Damn, there's always a but isn't there?) as the pot temp varies so does the mold temp. As the level of alloy in the pot decreases the temp of that alloy increases. That's just the nature of an electric pot, a LEE or a Magma BUT (another but) not your electric pot, not anymore. :mrgreen:

Now I gotta ask ya, where did you put the thermocouple?

Rick

[freebullet]

I sense giggling.

[cbrick]

I sense giggling.

Too funny . . .

Rick

[Doc Highwall]

Tim, now you can use your old thermometer for your hot plate so you know how hot you have preheated your mould and extra ingots to replenish your pot. That's what I did with mine.

[MBTcustom]

Very true! Mold temp can have much to do with boolit quality & weights BUT (Damn, there's always a but isn't there?) as the pot temp varies so does the mold temp. As the level of alloy in the pot decreases the temp of that alloy increases. That's just the nature of an electric pot, a LEE or a Magma BUT (another but) not your electric pot, not anymore. :mrgreen:

Now I gotta ask ya, where did you put the thermocouple?

Rick

Still working on the thermocouple arrangement. I've been thinking about it, and I think I want to make a dual purpose apparatus that hold the thermocouple and provides a shelf to preheat the mold on as well. I'll just make a leg that sticks down in the pot to draw heat up to the little shelf that I set the mold on. That would be interesting I think.

[cbrick]

Ok, the reason I asked is that if your not stuck on using it for the Star also you could wire it like the Magma pot. On the outside of the pot on the center bottom weld a nut, use this nut to attach the probe, reassemble the pot. It will of course be hard wired to the pot but you'll have nothing inside the pot in the way, very handy.

Rick

[dragon813gt]

Actually, I think all I have to do is hold down the arrow key and reset the display like a kitchen oven. So far, it's pretty civilized!

That will allow you to change the temp. But each device will gain and lose heat at a different rate. If it's currently tuned to your Star then write down the P I D values. Then hook it up to your pot and see how close it holds the temp. It could hold it well. If it doesn't then run the AutoTune and take a look at the new values.

If you really want to drive yourself nuts. Run AutoTune w/ varying levels of lead in it. The values will be different at every level and it will only have precise control w/in a certain percentage of that level. If mine was tuned w/ a full pot it would drastically overshoot if it dropped below a quarter. And I forget what level I eventually tuned it at.

And you are right. It's a convenient piece of equipment. It allows you to focus on everything else besides the pot temp. As far as $180. You can build them for way less than that.

[retread]

Tim,

Once you get that controlling your pot you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.

[dikman]

Does someone actually charge $180 for a PID?:shock:.

[6bg6ga]

You do remember that I issued a recall on the Star/Magma sizers and it now includes all the options. goodsteel I will send a box and a call tag for your unit.

[dragon813gt]

Does someone actually charge $180 for a PID?:shock:.

If not $180 then very close to it. They sell for at least $150. You can build one on the cheap if you wanted to. Like the guy that used an ammo can as the housing. If you don't understand electricity I guess it's a daunting task to build one. I see it as no harder than wiring in a light switch.

[MBTcustom]

If not $180 then very close to it. They sell for at least $150. You can build one on the cheap if you wanted to. Like the guy that used an ammo can as the housing. If you don't understand electricity I guess it's a daunting task to build one. I see it as no harder than wiring in a light switch.

Well personally, my brain works in the physical realm. Trigonometry is the heartbeat of my mental constitution. Electricity and chemistry is foreign to me, and does not come easily.
When I look at a wire, my mind considers how much weight it could support without breaking, how much abrasion it will resist, and things of that nature.
Because of this wiring things up is not easy for me, and I never spent enough time with it to get a good handle on it.
Fortunately, the people that are really good at wiring things up, can't run a machine shop and think in 3D like I can, so there is opportunity there for the barter system to flourish!
It's much better to be darn good at one thing, and make friends with people who are expert in another area, than to be kinda good at everything, in my humble opinion.

[btroj]

Isn't that the truth Tim. Do what you do and do it well. Know when to ask for assistance.

I am sure I could wire a PID if I really put my mind to it but that sort of stuff just isn't my ball of wax. I probably should just bite the bullet and buy the stuff and figure it out.

[dragon813gt]

It's much better to be darn good at one thing, and make friends with people who are expert in another area, than to be kinda good at everything, in my humble opinion.

I agree completely. It helps to be really good at a few things though ;)

Electricity can be daunting at first. But the key to understanding wiring diagrams, at a PID level, can be summed up w/ two hints. Electricity flows like water. And relays are shown in an unpowered state. I teach this to new guys all the time and they pick it up quickly once they realize these two simple things.

And screw trigonometry. Geometry is the only higher math that makes sense :laugh:

[Beagle333]

I cast and lubed a lotta nice boolits before I got my PID for the pot and the sizers but I'm sure spoiled now. :cool:

[blikseme300]

A PID setup can be done on the cheap but if you have a full-time job and not much spare time then it is difficult to build one using good quality parts for less than $150. I get all but the plugs and switch from Auber Instruments for $118.49 excluding shipping. The enclosure only needs holes drilled for the power cords and switch.

In addition to one stop shopping Auber Instruments has tech support available. This convenience is worth something to me and the quality unit produced has value as well. I have assembled more than 10 units over the last 2 years and all of them work without problems. The friends that I have built the units for are very happy and did not flinch about the expense.

The cost of the ammunition we cast booliteers produce is but a small factor to some as the satisfaction our hobby creates has no price tag. A PID just helps us along in our quest.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Okay, it's been a few years since I've worked with PID type controllers and I don't want to say how long (but my children weren't old enough to have children then), but back then one unit was generally capable of monitoring/controlling at least two temperatures/pressures and at least two devices. All the reading I've been doing on the forum indicates the units you fellas are purchasing all all a single input and a single control output, at least from the way you've been applying them.

Am I missing something or are you fellas under utilizing the capabilities of the units you're buying?

[MBTcustom]

This is the one I bought Dave.
What do you think?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110557193685?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

[dikman]

I guess what you're saying, blikseme, is true enough if you're sourcing the parts locally and using "higher-end" components and then adding in the time involved in building one. From my observations, however, the SSR's and K-probes I've looked at are pretty well all coming from the same sources, with a very high markup when purchased locally compared to buying off ebay. The Auber PID's are amongst the most expensive I've seen. Whether they are any better, functionally, than the "cheaper" ones I don't know. Both of my "cheapies" were labelled Made in Japan and the SSR's are Made in Taiwan, which I must admit surprised me, as I just assumed they'd be Made in China. I guess the biggest advantage for some is that the Auber units presumably have clear instructions (but then, where's the fun in that?:lol:).

Dave, from what I've seen the ones we use are indeed single input/output (regardless of brand), but then that's all we need. Likewise they have many adjustable parameters, but again for our needs most of these are somewhat redundant. If it can keep a temperature to within a degree or two of the target setting, what more do we need?

As for being good at one specific thing, and doing it well, that's a fine sentiment and certainly has some merit to it, but it definitely doesn't apply to me! The phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" is probably more applicable in my case [smilie=1:.
Which suits me fine, because in the real world there's not much I can't do if I need/want to. Like building a PID on-the-cheap :wink:. Or any number of things for my shooting hobby.
It's all good fun.

[MBTcustom]

Well, I slapped $180 up there, because that's how much a certain banned member was selling them for and everybody thought that was a pretty good price considering the time it takes to put all that stuff together on an hourly rate.

[Beagle333]

I have never regretted buying mine from that "banned member". It's a wonderful thing! I'm using it to run my pot, lube heater and my toaster oven for powdercoating. I also bought one of those same single line display units that you showed there, Goodsteel, for my second unit that I'm attempting to build myself. :grin:

(but I got it from Auburins instead of fleabay)

[dragon813gt]

Well, I slapped $180 up there, because that's how much a certain banned member was selling them for and everybody thought that was a pretty good price considering the time it takes to put all that stuff together on an hourly rate.

I didn't realize that's how much he was charging. I know I paid a lot less then that when I bought one from him. When I bought it I was working 70 hours a week and had little free time. So the cost benefit analysis made it a no brainer to buy from him. At that time his cost was about $20 over what you could buy the parts for.

[MBTcustom]

I didn't realize that's how much he was charging. I know I paid a lot less then that when I bought one from him. When I bought it I was working 70 hours a week and had little free time. So the cost benefit analysis made it a no brainer to buy from him. At that time his cost was about $20 over what you could buy the parts for.

Indeed! No argument whatsoever. I was actually going to buy one myself, but you have to admit that $180 bucks is hard to break off when it seems like little more than a dandified thermometer that keeps me from the agony of reaching behind my pot and twisting a pot switch 1-2 degrees LOL!
I'm still not totally sure if it will make that big a difference. We'll see next time I am doing a big run.

BTW, it's true there are P I and D settings with this unit, unless you want to run the auto tune cycle every time you change. I'm not sure I'm smart enough to figure out the settings and manipulate them quickly. If only they made these things where I could talk to the PID in G code, then I'd be home free! LOL!

[runfiverun]

the different numbers are how you fine tune the controller.
the p is the big number and gives you a range, the I is a finer tune line that shows the straight path, and the d is the one that controls the little waves on either side of the exact [I]set point.

think about a ship on the ocean zig zagging all over.
you want it going to Australia.
the p gets it going south, the I sets it to 180* and the d number is what keeps it going straight as little waves hit the ship.

[MBTcustom]

the different numbers are how you fine tune the controller.
the p is the big number and gives you a range, the I is a finer tune line that shows the straight path, and the d is the one that controls the little waves on either side of the exact [I]set point.

think about a ship on the ocean zig zagging all over.
you want it going to Australia.
the p gets it going south, the I sets it to 180* and the d number is what keeps it going straight as little waves hit the ship.

That will never work. It's not water proof. LOL!
Thanks for the explanation!

So what's the cause and effect? What do you see in the controller that you can tweak upon?
Right now, all I see is the thing sitting there reading 750 and making a sound like brrrr......brrrr.....brrrr as it pulses heat to the pot.
If I chunk an ingot in there, it tries to maintain the temp but at some point realizing it's fighting a losing battle and goes brrrr.....brrrr......brrrr.....brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr
and holds the hammer down till it crosses 750 again. When it crossed 750, it overshot by about 6 degrees before it realized it had caught it's mark and then it started throwing weaker pulses to slowly bring it back to 750 where it started holding the fort again.
SO, what needs adjusting?

Seems like it's main virtue is that it will maintain consistent temperature and even out small fluctuations as the pot empties out. Other than that, it takes the same ammount of time to recover from being hit with a cold lead ingot (Not that I hold it against the PID. There is little intelligence in this world, artificial or otherwise, that can have a close encounter with a cold lead ingot and show no effect LOL!)

[dragon813gt]

Was it still applying power at 6 degrees over? Or is that how far it drifted once it cut power? I always keep some sprues out for over shots. They will bring the temp right in line real quick. I haven't sat down and really tuned mine in. I screwed it up good one day and the auto tune got me back to where it only overshoots a little. The swing is dependent on how full the pot is.

[Doc Highwall]

Tim, the more you use it the more that the PID learns and becomes better at controlling the temperature.

[MBTcustom]

Tim, the more you use it the more that the PID learns and becomes better at controlling the temperature.

Oh well that's good! Tomorrow is Sunday and sometimes I can get some casting time in. I've just got it plugged in and watching it today while I work.

[runfiverun]

use the auto tune when you have it at the temp you want it.
this narrows the wandering window down a little more.

also if you make your ingots 1/2-3/4 pound [for the 20 pound pot] and make a 1/4"-3/8" steel top for your pot you can cut down on fluctuations immensely when adding lead.
the top gives you a place to put those ingots for a second before adding them to the pot.
the top also adds mass to the pot which helps control temp fluctuations.
it also helps when you get that occasional bubble up.

oh yeah I don't even have a pid on my pots we just use them to tune in our micro-motions for measuring chemical[s] flow in the oil field.

[Handloader109]

If you don't have a clue, and want someone else to build for you, then $180 is a price you might pay.
I am not an electrician and didn't stay in motel last night, but using whats been listed on Castboolits, I spent less than $35 out of pocket. that was for eBay controller, thermocouple and SSR.
I had an old power supply from PC in my storage I had used as a 12Volt dc source in past that I tore into and only left the switch and the incoming and an outgoing plug. Cheep box from either Radio shack or an online source would be maybe $10 at the most. You don't have to have switch, pulling wall plug would be cheaper. And you could hard wire the furnace into the box, so outlets aren't a real requirement. Then I being the cheapskate I am, use the wiring that I pulled out of the power supply as wire source between the SSR, switches and the controller. Good enough for me, You could have put crimped connectors on the wiring, but not me, too cheep. Easily the project can be done for $50 or so. I'm out $35 and it was WELL worth the money. keeps the melt at exactly the temp selected without over or underheating.

[Handloader109]

Tim, you only changed the controller, the furnace still only heats at the max that it did from factory. If you add cold lead, it will get colder. if you Autotune, it will level out and lessen the overshoot.

[double bogey]

Instead of outlets, I got a 6' ext. cord and cut a foot off each end, for male and female plug. Used some of the rest of the wire for internal connections. Used a knockout for 1/2" conduit, and clamps to anchor the cords on the back of the box. The only real challenge is cutting the hole for the pid control and making it look good. I would like to find a good box with a controller hole already cut at a reasonable price. I think auberins gets $28 for the one that they sell.

I'm new to casting, and never cast without one. Now I'm looking for things to control with one. And I'm in the hvac business, and can get all the tstats I want.