Frank Wesson .38RF to CF conversion

[Crank]

Hello,
I didn't want to hijack my .327 K-frame conversion thread, so I will start another thread for one of my other hare-brained projects. I have a Frank Wesson in .38RF with a fair bore and got to doing some comparison. A shortened .38 Special case fits in and the bore slugs at about .360, so I started looking at what it would take to make it a centerfire. It turns out that it has a dovetailed recoil plate fixed to the breech, so I decided to make a new one for centerfire and incorporate a filler to eliminate the large gap in the center of the receiver for the rimfire hammer. Here is what I did last night.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_192248_zps218e17d5.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_192248_zps218e17d5.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_192227_zps5c98e364.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_192227_zps5c98e364.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_192308_zpscfef84a6.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_192308_zpscfef84a6.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_192403_zps65d315a4.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_192403_zps65d315a4.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_214046_zps7b14a01f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_214046_zps7b14a01f.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_214056_zps6847d207.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_214056_zps6847d207.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_214112_zps73c1ccef.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_214112_zps73c1ccef.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/Wesson/20140401_214200_zpsb2e8eb09.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/Wesson/20140401_214200_zpsb2e8eb09.jpg.html)

To avoid catching flak over it, I will warn everyone that this was a spur of the moment project during the downtime with my .327 and I can't predict when any progress may happen. Although, all that is needed is to final shape the firing pin hole and convert the hammer to centerfire, so something could happen at any time.

Mark

P.S. I know the firing pin hole looks off center, but that is the actual centerline of the hammer and the original recoil plate was not centered to begin with.

[uscra112]

So, it can be put back to original configuration then?

[taco650]

Were the two holes covered up by the center fire recoil plate of any significance?

[Crank]

uscra,
Probably, but why? collector following of the Wesson tip up is lukewarm, so I doubt there will be much in the way of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Face it, people that truly appreciate single shots, want to shoot them. This way it gets to stay in service.

taco,
Those are 2 threaded holes that were for blind screws (flush w/no slot) that held the recoil plate. I chose not to reuse them for my plate, as I feel friction will hold it like a dovetailed sight would.

Mark

[Green Frog]

Standing by with bated breath for further installments. I have to agree with your sentiments about the desirability of making this relic shootable, but I'm sure you will hear from the nay sayers as well. BTW, I assume you have doped out the mechanics of the bullet situation... it was an externally lubed, heeled bullet. You may end up needing a custom bullet mould or else rechambering to an over-diameter case you would have to make by blowing out your cases (or something?) Keep those reports on this and your 327 coming... maybe our virtual support will help keep you on task! ;-)

Regards,
Froggie

[Crank]

Froggie,
Thanks for the support, I am "THAT GUY!" when it comes to irritating "collectors" and my hide won't even twitch as they try to burn me at the stake. Unless a firearm is in pristine condition for its age and/or has a legitimate historical value, it is just another tool from a bygone era to be enjoyed. I think the bullet/case situation won't be too big of a problem, since a bullet sized or cast at about .360 will fit the bore and a shortened .38Spl. case fits the chamber, who says they have to be loaded together. If pushing a bullet into the bore first and then loading a case with powder worked for Harry Pope, why not me? I have already considered making a breech seater for my .33-47 Hepburn, so I would have to figure out a way to make one to work on the Wesson. However, I can do some digging for an alternative case and punch the chamber a few thousandths if necessary. I will stay on track for the .327, since I have a friend bringing some reamers for the cylinder this weekend. Then I will revisit this one.

Mark

[John Taylor]

You could open the chamber up to 38 S&W and not need to use a healed boolet. I lined my 32 rim fire to 22LR and only had to modify the extractor. Got some flack from a few people but the gun was useless with a rotten bore. If it were done 100 years ago it would be a collectible but because it was done this year all collectible value is gone, don't make sense.

[taco650]

Unless a firearm is in pristine condition for its age and/or has a legitimate historical value, it is just another tool from a bygone era to be enjoyed. Mark

I love firearms but I agree with Marks sentiments COMPLETELY! I don't own many guns but they do get shot regularly and all but two could be sold to buy something else.

One of those two is a Ruger M77 30-06 w/ factory iron sights, the old tang safety model. Its nothing unusual but it was the first rifle I ever bought. Bought it new when I was 16 and I had to work for every cent because my dad wouldn't help with the $$. Don't cuss him for it. He loved me enough to let me work for it and that was a very valuable life lesson. The other gun is my dad's 1928 Model 94 in "30WCF" and I'll keep that just because it was his. Shot my first deer with it too ;-)

Hey Mark, hurry up with these installments will ya? Nobody wants to read about me.[smilie=6:

[texassako]

Face it, people that truly appreciate single shots, want to shoot them. This way it gets to stay in service.


Interesting conversion, but you could have always gone with converted brass. Pretty easy to fill the primer hole and drill an offset hole for a .22 blank for a primer.

[Crank]

John,
Right on track. I was kicking that around as a possible, but I will want to look at chamber length. I would prefer to avoid the bullet having too large of a jump to the rifling. I will probably do a chamber cast for an accurate assessment.

taco,
Amen! I totally agree that some guns are special and sometimes only to the guy that owns them. I am not a sentimental type, but I have one of them. An occasional customer/friend gave me a Ruger Hawkeye that was significantly damaged in a fire, he refused to accept payment since it may be unsafe. I replaced all of the springs and gave it a check for hardness and took it out for a test fire, all went well and I relayed my results to him. Fast forward a couple of months and I was getting back to the states after a couple of trips to Panama fixing a frigate that wouldn't go boom. I had a voicemail from his wife saying she needed to talk to me. I called thinking she wanted to have me do some work. When I called, she was so relieved that she found my number, but it was to let me know that he had been killed in a motorcycle wreck over two months earlier. They thought his cell phone was lost, but it was returned to her after the M.E. finished. She told me the date he passed and it was about two days after I talked with him. That was a rough night, but his memory lives on every time I pick that gun up.

texassako,
You are absolutely right, but I mess with enough brass, that converting it seemed more practical for me or a future caretaker.

Mark

[Navy Shooter]

John,
Right on track. I was kicking that around as a possible, but I will want to look at chamber length. I would prefer to avoid the bullet having too large of a jump to the rifling. I will probably do a chamber cast for an accurate assessment...

Mark

Thought I read on this board that a 357 Magnum was an exact fit for this. Someone else then said it was a 357 Max. Would appreciate hearing if either of those is true.

[Crank]

Navy,
The cartridge you are thinking of is the .38XL, this is a much shorter case with a heeled bullet, more like the size of a .38 spl. shortened.

Mark

[Navy Shooter]

Thanks Mark, I hadn't checked the boards, and so missed this.

I just 'ordered' a type 2 Frank Wesson by auction last week, supposedly in 38 caliber. Are the 38's chambered in 38 Long then? If so, would re-chambering to 38-55 be a possibility? It would be somewhat period correct, and was supposed to be an accurate load. It looks to me like the long would fit inside the profile of the 38-55. Not necessarily suggesting this for you, but wondering if you thought it would work, pressure wise. I haven't shot for very long, and am new to this.

Thanks,
Navy

[MT Chambers]

Crank: I don't think anyone will bother you, you look an awful lot like Rasputin the "Mad Monk".

[Crank]

Navy,
Bullet diameters are quite a bit different and this type of action is not well suited for that much of a cartridge (even in black powder).

MT,
I am deeply troubled, my photographer said it was my best angle.

Mark

[Navy Shooter]

Here's a picture of how Wesson did it in his later patent. Can be viewed at http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/patimg.htm, patent number 125640.

103312

[Green Lizzard]

i have one that was 44rf i relined and chambered for 32-20 left the slotted breech as is, have only shot black powder and eq smokeless loads, but it seem to do ok

[Navy Shooter]

Wondering if you've had any more time with the Wesson. Froggie said he was waiting with bad breath or something... :?:

Also, you mentioned that the firing pin seemed off-center, but was centered with the hammer. Is the firing pin centered enough for a centerfire? I'm assuming for the rimfire version, they really don't care if it hits at 12 o'clock, or 10 o'clock or something. Since he made these in .22 to .44, maybe there was a manufacturing advantage to having them off center, for multiple calibers.

Navy

[Crank]

No work on this one, it is splattered across my work bench and will be on the back burner for a bit. The firing pin plate was not centered, but the hammer nose was dead center.

Mark

[woodbutcher]

:holysheep Now this sounds interesting.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Navy Shooter]

Well, it's been a couple of years. Any luck on that rifle? I've made quite a few .22 conversion shells for mine, and it is a pain in the neck. Wish I'd bought a centerfire, or else had the hammer modified for that.

By the way, .375 seem to work well in this, but .380 only sometimes work. Found that out because I had a .380 mold, which I used for making round balls for the Colt Navies. The .380 works fine in those, but having bullets that close in diameter is asking for trouble.

[Crank]

Still have it, still haven't finished it. This is a good excuse to drag it out and get back to working on it. Sometimes my projects languish while my attention is drawn to the newest shiny object. I need to get this one done and it shouldn't take a great deal of time. I just need to motivate myself

Mark

[Green Frog]

Hey Crank, when are you going to find an excuse to get back to the Right Coast? I need another gun show and coffee after session with you to swap lies (I mean information) again. I've about got my Atlas MFC mill about ready to fire up and I've got some interesting projects in the works.

Your Phriend the 'Phibian

[Crank]

Froggie,
Good to know you're still around. Unfortunately, there's nothing in the crystal ball for any trips your way. I have been busy playing with Colts and not doing much with rifles. This one has been sitting in a drawer with other uncompleted projects.

Mark

[marlinman93]

Missed this when you started the thread. But was wondering about the off center firing pin hole. Since it was off center to work on a RF cartridge, why leave it off center? Wont it miss the primer of a CF .38 Long?
I own a couple Ballards in .38 Long and .38XL. I found an old Ideal mold for the .360" heeled bullet, and cast from those. But have looked at contacting Tom at Accurate, or NEI, and have one of them build me a better bullet than the original stubby heeled bullet.

[Crank]

Marlinman,
The firing pin is centered with the bore, the plate was not centered. It's right in line with a CF primer.

Mark

[Tatume]

Hi Mark,

Good to see you around again. I haven't talked to you since your trip to Dahlgren. How was it?

Take care, Tom

[Crank]

That was for the MK110 57mm Bofors cannon. It was a good school and a great chance to get to a couple of gun shows. Until they come up with a training program for the Advanced Gun System (AGS), there probably won't be any schools for me for a while. I just had the pleasure to see Kodiak, AK. on a trip to fix a 76mm for a USCG cutter this week. I never know what, or where the next job will be and I feel very blessed to be a gunsmith on a much larger scale.

Mark

[marlinman93]

Marlinman,
The firing pin is centered with the bore, the plate was not centered. It's right in line with a CF primer.

Mark

So the bore or barrel is off center to strike center?

[Green Frog]

That was for the MK110 57mm Bofors cannon. It was a good school and a great chance to get to a couple of gun shows. Until they come up with a training program for the Advanced Gun System (AGS), there probably won't be any schools for me for a while. I just had the pleasure to see Kodiak, AK. on a trip to fix a 76mm for a USCG cutter this week. I never know what, or where the next job will be and I feel very blessed to be a gunsmith on a much larger scale.

Mark

Mark is the only gunsmith I know who has a sledge hammer as part of his gunsmithing tool kit... and actually gets to use it! :D

Froggie

[Crank]

What's wrong with a sledgehammer? I need something if someone brings me a Kimber, I don't always have a cutting torch handy.:kidding:
Well, as was often said on Scooby-Doo, you pesky meddling kids! I found all of the bits, made a firing pin, installed a firing pin retaining screw, reshaped the firing pin and at last popped a few primers. So you are all to blame for making me get off my derriere and finishing it.

167731

167732

167733

So seriously, thanks for the incentive. I will have to pull it apart to smooth out the firing pin (I just rough shaped it), but otherwise it's time to throw some ammo together. I think I will try some Makarov bullets in .38 spl brass with a load of Trail Boss.

Mark

[Crank]

Marlinman,
The bore is centered, the firing pin is centered and the hammer is centered. The recoil plate/breech face is off center. The dovetail cut is what makes everything look askew.

Mark

[marlinman93]

Thanks for the clarification Mark! I had a nice Frank Wesson, but it was .44 Long CF, so never messed with it.

[taco650]

Will you be able to get the firing pin strike a little more centered on the primer?

Looks like you're almost finished with a project Mark!

[Crank]

Taco,
Without altering the receiver and making a new recoil plate, that's as good as I can ask for. I'll run it and see how it shoots, if it seems problematic, I'll deal with it again. Otherwise I'll be content to leave it alone. I could have sworn I had the impact centered when I made the plate, but obviously I made a wee bit of an error. Such is life, it would be a greater concern if I had intended a high pressure round, but it will lead a life of leisure with the loads I intend to use.

Mark

[taco650]

Taco,
Without altering the receiver and making a new recoil plate, that's as good as I can ask for. I'll run it and see how it shoots, if it seems problematic, I'll deal with it again. Otherwise I'll be content to leave it alone. I could have sworn I had the impact centered when I made the plate, but obviously I made a wee bit of an error. Such is life, it would be a greater concern if I had intended a high pressure round, but it will lead a life of leisure with the loads I intend to use.

Mark

Sounds good to me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. ☺

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I sure have enjoyed reading through all this. I shoot single shots also. They are of no use if they cannot be shot. Your work on this Wesson is encouraging to keep looking for another old single shot to get shooting again.
One of the nice elements of loading BP is you can always step to the bigger grain sizes and drop chamber pressure if needed. Going from 3F to F will reduce pressure by a good % depending on factors. Of course the reverse is true to increase bullet base pressure. Sometimes that is the best way to overcome our modern cases lack of the balloon head.
Mike in Peru till June

[Crank]

Mike,
Thanks for the support. Now that this one is done (finally!). I re-discovered a Low Wall action that I had resurrected. I already bushed the firing pin and welded up the atrocities that had been committed to it. With my affinity for .32 caliber, I might just build a .32 Long for fun. NO! I don't want a 32-20, been there done that and too mainstream for me. I'll figure out some weird caliber to fix it up in.

Mark

[marlinman93]

How about a .327 Federal, and tell everyone it's a .32 Ballard XL? Nearly identical cases, and just different bullets. The .327 Federal would be easy to get brass, dies, and bullets for, but could be loaded to .32BXL levels.

[Green Frog]

How about a .327 Federal, and tell everyone it's a .32 Ballard XL? Nearly identical cases, and just different bullets. The .327 Federal would be easy to get brass, dies, and bullets for, but could be loaded to .32BXL levels.

Marlinman93,

We had this discussion over on the American Single Shot Rifle Association forum several years ago when the 327 FM first came out and it was agreed that the low wall platform just didn't have enough beef for this hot case. If you can buy it in a factory round and it's that hot, the chances of somebody blowing up an original low wall are just too great. The 32 H&R (Magnum-wannabe) on the other hand works well, and I've been in on several of those conversions myself. The only original low wall I would even consider chambering in 327 FM would be a 3rd Model Winder Musket, which is actually a full sized high wall receiver shell with the sidewalls cut down, but even then I'd be concerned about bolt support... not what I would load in it, but what the next guy might! :shock:

Froggie

[Crank]

Froggie,
You nailed it. I guess I could get away with the H&R chamber since factory stuff is so neutered. Considering I shoot everything from .32ACP to .327, brass is not a problem. I actually only have one 32-20 right now and that is in a Colt Army Special, but I have had rifles in the past and they were just too "normal". It will probably wind up being a situation where I find some donor for a barrel and decide I can use it regardless of caliber. Hmmmm, maybe .45 Auto Rim???

Mark

[Green Frog]

I've always kinda liked the 25-20 SS for the low wall action... I've got one of those on the back burner right now if I can ever get a round tuit to finish it up. It uses the same extractor as the 32 rf, which is fairly common and mine was built around the little barrel Green Mountain was making at the time for little lever actions like the Winchester 1892. They were already profiled with a nice tapered octagon similar to, but a smidge smaller than, the Winchester #1, and came with a short section in the round at the chamber, just right for threading and leaving a little "tulip" like a Ballard. I think they also made that same barrel in 32 (for 32-20, but usable for 32 H&R) and 44 (for 44-40.) I don't know whether they are still available from Green Mtn or not, but that would save a BUNCH of profiling time and they look great on a trim little low wall receiver. :cool:

Froggie

[Crank]

Okay, a wee bit of a belated update. Last Monday went to the range and decided to give it a whirl. I had to install a rear sight because the original snapped, the replacement was too low, but worked to point it downrange. First up were some LRN in .38SPL. cases that were light loads for CAS that my buddy uses. Would best be described as a shotgun pattern, with said shotgun having a distinct bend and the bullets wandered 8-10 feet left of the line of sight. No bueno!:cry: The good news was, it fired and extracted like a dream. Oh well. I put it aside and tinkered with some other toys and then came across a hodgepodge of flush seated, full wadcutter ammo that was in some mystery bags and boxes. I decided to give them a whirl, OH GOODY!!!:mrgreen: They all went in a straight line about 2-3' low (due to the wrong rear sight) but once I doped the elevation I was landing them in about a coffee can sized group on the 100yd berm. They had a lot more power, but were still mild and worked like a dream. Once I get a properly sized rear sight this thing should be a hoot to lob lead boolits. All this was without resorting to any chamber alterations or using boolits specially sized to match the bore. If I get creative, I may try to recreate the rest of the weird tang sight parts and go that route instead of a blade rear. So yes, it lives and its fun!

Mark

P.S. The lighting was right and the bullets were like silver tracers, that was a crowd pleaser!

[Mk42gunner]

Always neat to get that tracer effect. Sounds like the rifle has potential.

Robert

[Crank]

I'm very pleased with it. I saved it at a huge gun auction from a jerk dealer that was buying everything he could get cheap for antiques. I did wind up as the crazy buyer the next day and bought about 10,000 rounds of obscure calibers and about 40,000 rounds of obscure brass. Everybody else was buying just mainstream calibers and I dropped several thousand dollars on a bunch of offbeat stuff because I work with so many weird calibers. I sold most of it off over the years, but I still have a decent selection. The auctioneer said they had over 12,000 lbs of ammo and brass at that auction. I was in heaven! Sorry, just reminiscing.

Mark

[Sur-shot]

Mark,
If you ever find that Frank Wesson collector just panting over buying a RF bicycle rifle let me know. I want to see one up close. I carried one with stock, around to shows, on my sales table, for years. Figured I was going to die with it. Finally a kid came by and looked at it twice and he got himself a "buy."
Ed

[Crank]

Ed,
You nailed it, sometimes stuff that you think has a market, is a case of timing. I have a delightful Dreyse sporting rifle made for metallic cartridges. It's fully engraved, has a buffalo horn trigger guard, double set triggers and is just stunning. It wandered around the enormous SAR gun show on a gents shoulder all day, after I looked at it three times, I became the "kid that got a buy". I had to chamber cast it and found nothing similar on record, but a bit of reforming on a shortened 45-70 case with a .452 dia. bullet made for a fun outing and now I have 50 fire-formed cases. I have never found an exact twin, but I have seen similar sell for many thousands of dollars, mine set me back less than a grand. These Wesson rifles are hit or miss, I see them pop up on GB typically for $750+, but only occasionally sell and for all sorts of random prices. I got this one for a reasonable sum, it had a presentable bore and I don't "collect" (I accumulate),;) so now it is a fun shooter. It is funny when you have a ---fill in the blank--- that you have little hope for sending to a new home and suddenly "that guy" shows up, has a seizure that you have one and starts throwing money at you. There's something for everyone.

Mark