A story and a little M1 Carbine porn - warning: long, windy and full of information

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Several years ago now I was working a gunshow here in Atlanta helping a friend of mine. The tables next to us were occupied by a dealer of USGI surplus parts. That day, he had several M1 Carbine parts kits for the whopping sum of $259.00 retail. I asked him and because I was a dealer working the show, he offered me one for $200.00 cash. I told him I'd like to get one and would talk to him about it on Sunday afternoon (It was Saturday morning, I was cash poor and the show was just starting. Good manners among dealers is if the other guy has something you're interested in, give him a chance to sell it at his best make money price and then buy it for a discount for cash late Sunday, when you've made money and have some to spend.)

I did well that show and walked over to talk to him late Sunday afternoon. He had sold all his "bagged up" kits, but still had enough parts left to make up a kit and told me he would be glad to mix/match a set to make me up one I'd be happy with. I ended up with a kit that contained the following critical parts:

USGI replacement stock, M2 potbelly/low cut, beach w/4 rivet beach handguard
USGI replacement barrel, SA 3-52, NOS sealed in aluminum protective bag, with the following connected: type 3 barrel band, w/bayonet lug (best for accuracy and I'm a shooter) front sight w/key and pin (all NOS)
Most all the other parts were late revision/type/upgraded parts, replacement, USGI, NOS, the only exception being the trigger guard and sear. The trigger guard was either a cast or forged guard and had seen some use, so had some dings. The sear was either a type I or II without the hole in it. I did choose a NOS blued flat bolt at that time, though if I had it to do over, I'd have gotten a round M2 bolt.

So now I had a complete M1 carbine except for no receiver, mostly new parts. I debated getting a USGI receiver, but at that time, they were hard to find and expensive when you found one. I didn't want to pay big money and get a worn out receiver with all the new parts I had. I knew the rifle would always be a replacement part mixmaster, but the parts were new and if I could get a new receiver, I could basically get a new gun.

Lo and behold: For about ten microseconds, Springfield Armory, Genesco, IL offered up brand new forged steel/machined stripped receivers for sale for a whopping $100.00 bucks or a bit more by the time you paid the local dealer.

I was sharing this information and decision with my Dad on the phone at the time, as I didn't quite have enough cash to get one yet, so had time to think about it. My birthday was coming up and my Dad bought one of the Springfield Armory forged receivers for me for my birthday! What a great guy! Dad was in good health at that time and one thing I'll always love about my Dad is he always supported me 100% in any endeavor I was into. He invited me to come visit on my birthday and gave me the receiver as a present. I was surprised and quite happy about it. So now I had the parts to build an M1 Carbine that was nearly new.

One nice thing about an M1 Carbine is if you have a vice and a good wrench, you can put together the barreled receiver pretty easily if you follow the old manuals instructions. You just need to make sure you've gotten it indexed correctly by some method. I attended gunsmithing school many years ago, so I made a set of alignment guages using some aluminum stock I picked up, ordered a set of head space gauges and a pull through reamer set and I was ready to go. Didn't take me long at all to get the barrel together, lined up and head spaced properly.

Finished assembling the rest of the rifle, stained the stock with some reddish/brown Minwax finish I got at Lowe's and the rifle was ready to shoot. It was one of the most accurate M1 carbines I've ever shot, both with jacketed and the 125 grain group buy bought here years ago. I was very pleased with it's performance, but not with it's appearance. The parts looked mismatched to the blued steel receiver and the stock just looked too shiny and ugly to me as the years past.

A couple years back (five or so), I pulled it down and decided to parkerize the metal and put it back together. Took over to my ole buddy's, who was just learning to park at that time and had full size tanks. The barreled receiver parked ok with the barrel a shade lighter (He was using Brownell's solution, not the best IMO, but that's what he had.), but the rest of the parts turned out an unacceptable silver and that was the last of the solution he had. So now I had a gun with a bunch of silver parts, not something I wanted. So the gun sat for a while, as my buddy just never did do as well with parkerizing as he did with bluing.

Flash forward to this spring. I had purchased a three burner cast iron outfit from Tractor Supply and a set of stainless steel pots from Harbor Freight. These aren't big enough to do a barreled action, but they are perfect for doing pistols and small parts off of rifles. My purpose was to get much more serious about learning the ins and outs of parkerizing professionally as well as find a quality brand of manganese solution that was affordable while providing a lot of mixed park solution. I found the solution I was looking for, found the information on professional parkerizing from the metal working/machinist forums and refined techniques, with some excellent results, a nice dark grey park.

I re-did all the silver small parts on my M1 carbine, then refinished the beech stock with a more appropriate military finish, to include some dark stain, raw linseed oil and a pine tar/beeswax preservative mix. During the stock refinish, I discovered the stock had needed some minor fitting back when that I'd missed. It needed some relief at the back of the trigger guard and the slide was rubbing slightly on the left inside. I repaired the cracks caused by the trigger guard with acraglas, relieved the left inside of the stock to prevent interference with the slide. I also did more research on properly installing the barrel in the stock and getting the best alignment.

Of the original kit, I only replaced two items: 1. The rear sight was a stamped model and I prefer the forged models. So I bought a reproduction sight made by a US company. 2. The old style sear gave a trigger pull like twenty pounds of bricks, so I bought a NOS Type III sear and replaced it.

Both the replacement sight and the type III sear worked much better. The trigger pull is now just about right. Sad thing is, neither my wife or I have good enough eyes to use iron sights much anymore, so we'll have to replace the handguard with a Ultimak and add a dot sight to be able to use the rifle.

Without further ado, here's a sample pic and a photobucket slide show of the pictures after completion. The closer up pics show the wood grain much better in the slide show. I apologize for the fading light and my cell phone camera, it did a poor job of picking up the rifle stock:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/DaveinOakwoodGA/saM1CarbinePics/saM1Carbine4_zps028e9823.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DaveinOakwoodGA/media/saM1CarbinePics/saM1Carbine4_zps028e9823.jpg.html)

Slide show:
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DaveinOakwoodGA/slideshow/saM1CarbinePics

[garandsrus]

Very nice....

[Frank46]

Some years back I bought a saginaw steering gear carbine with a winchester bbl. Think I paid about $500 for it. Had blue shy stamped on the bbl. Stock was a piece of junk that was rode hard and put away wet. Few tables down the aisle there was a pretty lady selling carbine stuff. Well I'm a sucker for pretty faces and bought a brand nos beech or birch stock with matching handguard, couple of parts and a rather thick data book on carbines. So went home and swapped out the stock and handguard and stuck on the barrel band with the lug for a bayo. Went to the range with some truely ancient norma carbine ammo. every so ofter I'd get a failure to fully extract and eject. Found a large burr on the receiver just where the magazine was. Took it home and reworked over the area with some small tool makers stones. Dressed down the burr and fed some rounds through the mag and into the chamber all good. Next outing no problems whatsoever. I have one of the stamped rear sights and thinking of changing it out for the machined ones. When they staked the sight in place some korean who's kimchee didn't agree with him put 4 of the deepest stakepoints on the slot where the sight was. Now I have to figure out how to get a stamped sight out of the slot and get the new one. Reason for staking the slots is that there is a mil specification that after staking 2000 pounds of force will be require to remove the sight. Anyway,the carbine stock is still as I purchased it and want to darken it up. Last show I went to was shocked at the prices they were asking for WWII carbines. Dealer had a bunch on his table. The cheapest one started at $800 and went up from there.
Some guys will turn down their noses at a blue sky but for me it turned out fine. I don't collect I sort of accumulate. Thats fine by me. Frank

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Frank,

I hear you on that one. I picked up a 100% Rock-Ola carbine years ago when "Blue Sky" was first importing the Korean shipped carbines back into the country. Only thing wrong with that rifle was the "Blue Sky" import stamp. A girlfriend and I call her that loosely sold it on me while I was out of state. When I got back she claimed there was a break in. Needless to say, I got rid of her real quick after that.

I'd love to have my bluesky RockOla back.

On your sight, if it's working good, leave it. If it isn't, take a drill bit of the right size and being careful, drill out each of the stake marks at the sight base, if that makes sense. That should get the sight off as it weakens the stakes and the stamped sights are fairly soft steel. It's just about impossible to find a good milled rear sight for a carbine any more, but there's a pretty darn good reproduction out for about 25 bucks and it's made here in the states. You can also find the old flip sights offered for sale over on the CMP forums occasionally.

On your beech stock, PM me if you like the way mine turned out and I can give you some pointers on how to get it there. There's also other methods out there that work and look good, but I liked a more natural look. Original specification according to every manual I have read for WWII stocks was to dip in heated raw linseed oil. Yep, right in the tech manuals. You can't see it on mine, but it's got lots of raw linseed oil on it. But some other good stuff as well, such as my personal version of gunny paste.:)

[Larry Gibson]

Wish I would have kept more of the M1 Carbines that I let slip through my hands.....only have 3 today........used one a bit in the late SEA war games (we came in 2nd.........:x). The M1 Carbine (actually and M2 but I seldom used "rock and roll") worked fine for me.

Larry Gibson

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Wish I would have kept more of the M1 Carbines that I let slip through my hands.....only have 3 today........used one a bit in the late SEA war games (we came in 2nd.........:x). The M1 Carbine (actually and M2 but I seldom used "rock and roll") worked fine for me.

Larry Gibson

I wish I had picked one of those up when I first came back from the service. Much easier and cheaper to do back then. I regret it now.

The gun I've pictured in the post has most of the positive upgrade/improvements that came out with the M2, but doesn't have the BATF forbidden items. The improved barrel band, stock and trigger make a big difference in how they shoot vs. the standard carbine with the old style parts. I really enjoy shooting it and the accuracy it provides.

Whoever said these little carbines weren't effective either had bad ammo, a bad rifle or were just plain missing. The little cartridge definitely smokes any handgun cartridge out there, even handgun cartridges loaded in a rifle. It was well designed.

[MUSTANG]

Dave in Georgia:

Can you elaborate on your Parkerizing Mix, techniques, and material sources? A few years ago when they were much cheaper, I procured three Israeli 1919A4 Parts sets plus goodies for .308, 30-06, and 8mm configuration, plus Ohio Ordnance Receiver plates, plus three Suomi KP/-31 parts sets that I intend to begin work on next winter. Parkerizing will be on the agenda and I had thought that Brownell's was the way I would go, but your comments make me want to reconsider that plan as I want a one time evolution to the parkerizing when I get there.

Thanks

[TNsailorman]

The first m1 carbine I ever bought was in the early 60's and DCM had them for I think $20.00 plus about $1.25 shipping. Of course, back then there was no problem, right to your door and no hassle about registration. It was a beautiful little rifle and I shot it quite a bit. Sold it to another old vet who was in bad health and wanted what he had carried before he died. Wish I had one now but I am not going to pay the going price for one at this late date in my life. james

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Mustang, sure, I'll be glad to and hopefully, the information will help. Some comments in red in the quote and some more information below.


Can you elaborate on your Parkerizing Mix, techniques, and material sources? 1. I purchased Allegheny Arsenal parkerizing solution and definitely prefer it over Brownell's by a huge margin. I followed their instructions to the letter initially in mixing and using, but have since come up with some additional useful information I'll share below. I posted the link below to see easier to their company.

Depending on your volume/quantity of work to be done, I would recommend going with the gallon of solution or the pint. The main reason I prefer the Allegheny Arsenal brand is the mix ratio: 28water:1park mix. This means you get a lot of ready to use solution for not having to buy a lot. Second, you don't have to "passivate" the solution initially with a steel wool biscuit or with steel particles like you do brownells. So less time invested in prep of solution, so more time invested actually parkerizing your parts. Third, the park quality is very high when done. I consistently have gotten a dark grey park every single time if the parts were prepped properly and the time has been fairly quick for most parts.

Note: I have had a couple of problem parts and will address them below.

A few years ago when they were much cheaper, I procured three Israeli 1919A4 Parts sets plus goodies for .308, 30-06, and 8mm configuration, plus Ohio Ordnance Receiver plates, plus three Suomi KP/-31 parts sets that I intend to begin work on next winter. I am totally jealous, particularly of the Suomi parts, as I can't afford to feed the 1919A4's.:)

Parkerizing will be on the agenda and I had thought that Brownell's was the way I would go, but your comments make me want to reconsider that plan as I want a one time evolution to the parkerizing when I get there. Brownell's initially sounds good, safe, etc., but their instructions way over complicate the process from a "get it done" standpoint and actually delayed my getting a park setup and trying it. After my experiences with my buddy's park, how quickly it depleted, how much work it was to get it ready and how complicated their instructions are, I wouldn't go there again. I purchased one of their "kits" with all the goodies and ended up not using the park mix from it. The Dicro Clean 909 (the degreaser included in the kit I bought) is very good stuff and have lots of experience using it in bluing, but that's not to say other degrasers mixed in water and heated wouldn't do just as good a job. Critical thing is the after degreasing rinse, where the degreaser needs to come off fairly quickly. As far as their water removing solution, just buy WD40 in the gallon jug at the auto parts store and save yourself some money. The gloves and thermometer were useful, but if you have a deep stainless steel pot for parking small parts, it's too shallow. Save yourself some money and get candy thermometers off of amazon, the long ones for about ten bucks. Work just as well as the brownell's thermometer.

Here's a link to Allegheny Arsenal's park solution page:

http://mg34.com/product-category/parkerizing/

After my experience, I would buy this from them:

http://mg34.com/product/extra-pint-of-parkerizing/ or this, if I needed more, their ad will tell you which one you need:

http://mg34.com/product/extra-gallon-parkerizing/

and just follow the instructions. I can't recommend their degreaser, as I've never used it. The Dicro Clean 909 I mentioned is very good stuff. Hopefully, others can chime in and tell you what works for them in a hot degreaser solution. Remember, shipping liquids is expensive due to weight, so think carefully about what you can buy locally vs. ordering online. In this case, due to weight, buying local is good and my plan, once my Dicro Clean 909 is gone, is to identify a good degreaser mix that works good hot and rinses easily. Right now, I have a bucket of it and if you cover it, it will last through a couple park jobs, so I'm good. Here's a link to it at Brownell's:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/pre-finish-surface-prep/dicro-clean-no-909-prod1065.aspx

Setup:

1. I'm currently set up to do small parts and I did that on a big time budget. The system works, but if I had to buy again, I'd pay more and get the HF two burner setups. Why? Because the cheapie cast iron ones I have are hard to adjust and get a temperature exactly where I want it because it doesn't turn down low enough without going out. Here's what I used for table top burners:

http://www.agrisupply.com/triple-burner-cast-iron-stove/p/48591/&sid=&eid=/ They are dirt cheap and got me going, but I would not recommend them for table top bluing/parking again. Instead, I would recommend these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/dual-burner-propane-stove-35559.html A little more expensive, but likely less problematic and safer. The slightly lower btu means you can keep your park solution at 185 degrees F a lot easier.

Stainless steel pot set from Harbor Freight for table top/small parts:

http://www.harborfreight.com/stainless-steel-4-piece-stock-pot-set-94829.html The work great for small parts, have lids to cover them and the price is tough to beat. Buy two sets for all the pots/containers you need to do table top/small parts/handguns.

For longer stuff, build your own stands and burners, google fu will help you find some good stuff and get Brownell's fiberglas tanks for rinse, water displacing oil and final oiling tank, their standard steel tanks for degreaser solution and hot water, and a single stainless steel tank. Brownell's is cheapest, but this tank is better and more versatile:

http://www.stainlesssteelcreations.net/parkerizing-products.html

Technique:

1. Clean the you know what out of every single part/pin/crevice, etc. Get every bit of grease/oil off. Boil in degreaser solution, then quick dunk it HOT boiling water to rinse off clean, blow dry.
2. Bead blast parts or sandblast, depending on finish you want. I prefer bead blast, as it ends up looking more like original rifles should look. Note: If needed, spray with Remoil and you can put off parking that day if time runs out on you. Wipe of most of it and rest comes off easily in hot degreaser solution and prevents rust.
3. If time is good, blast parts, moving in blasting cabinet from one container to a second container. When finished with that batch, remove from cabinet and use air hose to blast off most of the media.
4. You can go straight into park tank or to an acid wash/pickling bath. This is cold and seems to help majorly with problem parts. About five minutes or so, but don't keep in very long, as you can ruin parts in this stuff. 10% acid solution. Rinse with cold water. Note: I don't have carbon filters on my water, as the chlorine content in this area is very high. So I use distilled water from the store. It's not expensive and so far, it's been worth it.
5. Depending on where you're coming from, go either into hot degreasing solution/hot water rinse/park tank or straight to park tank.
6. If you've done a good job of mixing your solution, your parts should begin to fizz as they park and turn darker. Use bailing wire or brownell's wire to suspect small parts. You can make small parts baskets out of large stainless steel wire mesh. I buy cheapie stainless strainers from walmart for three bucks, rip the mesh out of the strainer, flatten it out, fold it up into a square basket and tie it off with the bailing wire. Works good, inexpensive.
7. Remove finished park from park solution, usually within 15 minutes or less. You'll have to eyeball the parts for when you're happy with the color, but they're usually close to the right color for me when they stop fizzing. If most parts are done fizzing, but one part is still fizzing, you may have a problem part there.
8. Remove from park, got to rinse pot/tank. A moving water tank is preferred, but you can get by with a larger than needed non-moving tank for small stuff.
9. Rinse quickly, then go to water displacing oil. Dunk, let most drip off and place in oil tank. I used the cheapest nastiest auto zone 30 weight oil they had. Worked great, but smells kinda bad. You can also use hot grease or other oils as you wish.
10. Give it a few and if you're putting a gun together, wipe down with oil soaked rag to move excess. If you're smell sensitive or have a smell sensitive woman in the house, wipe down again with a nice smelling oil on a rag.

Park job finished.

Hope this helps,

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

The first m1 carbine I ever bought was in the early 60's and DCM had them for I think $20.00 plus about $1.25 shipping. Of course, back then there was no problem, right to your door and no hassle about registration. It was a beautiful little rifle and I shot it quite a bit. Sold it to another old vet who was in bad health and wanted what he had carried before he died. Wish I had one now but I am not going to pay the going price for one at this late date in my life. james

Don't you wish you had bought a couple dozen at that price? Be enough for some pretty nice retirement cash nowadays. Rifles in mediocre shape are going for close to around a thousand on the CMP forums.

[Hardcast416taylor]

The first m1 carbine I ever bought was in the early 60's and DCM had them for I think $20.00 plus about $1.25 shipping. Of course, back then there was no problem, right to your door and no hassle about registration. It was a beautiful little rifle and I shot it quite a bit. Sold it to another old vet who was in bad health and wanted what he had carried before he died. Wish I had one now but I am not going to pay the going price for one at this late date in my life. james

I seem to recall spending that for my first carbine at about that time. Shot pretty nice, till my sisters boyfriend "borrowed" it!Robert

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I seem to recall spending that for my first carbine at about that time. Shot pretty nice, till my sisters boyfriend "borrowed" it!Robert

I know back in the day, most folks didn't lock up their guns, but that right there for me is a reason to kick someone's rear and a good reason to own at least a small stamped steel gunsafe, to keep "boyfriends" and other such ilk honest. It's also why I'm missing a Rock Ola carbine and a Windham Maine built AR15A2 Bushmaster aka the closest thing to a M16A2 you could buy in 1989/90. Reminded me of my service rifle and I still miss that gun. Made me comfortable and if some trouble was brewing, I could sleep good with it the bed, just like I had to do in the service many times with it tucked into my sleeping bag.

[TNsailorman]

The rules of the old DCM were a bit different than on todays CMP. The old DCM was a government run program thru the NRA. You were only allowed one M1 carbine, one M1 Garand, and one 1911 in a lifetime. Todays CMP is a private company who doesn't care whether you are a dealer, shooter, or competitor, only that you have enough money for the number of rifles you can buy. Both supported/support civilian marksmanship programs for the government but CMP has a secondary motive, make money for the company, thus the opening up of sales to allow many purchases. I couldn't have afforded more than one when DCM had control, even at $20.00. Still, it was great to have one and I really enjoyed it while I owned it. james

[zomby woof]

The rules of the old DCM were a bit different than on todays CMP. The old DCM was a government run program thru the NRA. You were only allowed one M1 carbine, one M1 Garand, and one 1911 in a lifetime. Todays CMP is a private company who doesn't care whether you are a dealer, shooter, or competitor, only that you have enough money for the number of rifles you can buy. Both supported/support civilian marksmanship programs for the government but CMP has a secondary motive, make money for the company, thus the opening up of sales to allow many purchases. I couldn't have afforded more than one when DCM had control, even at $20.00. Still, it was great to have one and I really enjoyed it while I owned it. james

The way the DCM was run, they would have rifles for 200 years. My DCM rifle took 17 months to arrive. Much more efficient now. At least all the rifles will be out there in a few years, the price will be too.

[TNsailorman]

zombie, that is interesting. My dad and I ordered our M1 carbines the same day and he got his in about 4 weeks and I had to wait about 6 weeks to get mine. I ordered my M1 Garand in 1966 and it took about 8 weeks. I never ordered a 1911 .45 but my uncle ordered one and it took him about 8 weeks to get it. I don't know whether us living in Tennessee and you living in New York had anything to do with it or not. Maybe your state laws slowed the process down, maybe not. You could get 173 grain .30 cal. bullets for I believe about $5.00 a thousand and shipping. 30-06 M2 ball ammo was $4.00 per 100 plus shipping, $5.00 per hundred if you wanted non-corrosive. I am not anti CMP, just observing that they are just like any other business, and there are places I can buy ammo cheaper than at CMP. I am glad they are there for the match shooters and they do a good job of running Camp Perry Matches but they do nothing for the hunter and general shooter or reloader. my opinion anyway, james

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I had forgotten the old DCM rules, but the one thing I did like is they only sold to individuals and not dealers. I do like, however, that the rifles are out of the government's hands so yahoos like the clintons or the obumas can't choose to destroy them.

[TNsailorman]

I had forgotten the old DCM rules, but the one thing I did like is they only sold to individuals and not dealers. I do like, however, that the rifles are out of the government's hands so yahoos like the clintons or the obumas can't choose to destroy them.

Good point Dave. The less government I have in my life, the better. Gun ownership has never been the same in this country since GCA 68. My rifles were brought straight to my door by lthe postman and no he was not "shocked" from having to deliver a rifle to a house. Times change and not always for the better. james

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Good point Dave. The less government I have in my life, the better. Gun ownership has never been the same in this country since GCA 68. My rifles were brought straight to my door by lthe postman and no he was not "shocked" from having to deliver a rifle to a house. Times change and not always for the better. james

You are 100% right there James. I remember when a man was expected to answer a yes/no question with a yes or no and not be a wimp. I also remember shotguns and hunting rifles in the windows of trucks in the parking lot of my high school during hunting season. Nowadays, there's all this political correctness bs and they'd have a "lock down" if anything that remotely looks like a firearm is seen near a school. The little young naive school teachers are so brain washed by the time they start work and go through the teacher's unions brain washing program, they'll freak out about anything.

Teacher's I had, if you drug a gun up into the school, were apt to take a look at it and send you home to clean it if it was dirty, particularly the shop teachers. Might even make you clean it in the parts washer. I've seen that happen. But back then, nobody worried about guns. On the other hand, you could get a right nasty beating for cussing, especially in front of a woman.

[MUSTANG]

Dave,
Thanks for the recipes and sources.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Dave,
Thanks for the recipes and sources.

You're welcome. If you have other questions, feel free to pm me and I'll give you the phone number to call. I've got a lot of information from researching parkerizing and recent personal experience I can share with you that should help you save some money and get better results "the first time."