Just getting started: Assumptions and Shopping list

[Landshark9025]

Hey all, I am just getting started into casting and I want to make sure my initial assumptions are correct. Boolits will be for a S&W mod 66 revolver w/ 4" bbl. I am fairly new to reloading in general and have only run about 2,500 rounds in combinations of 125g plated FP, 158g SWC, and 158g plated SWC. I liked the accuracy with the hard cast 158g SWC with Bullseye best, but not the mess created by the wax lube.
I have read the Lyman Reloading manual, Lee Reloading manual, Lyman Casting manual and the Glen Fryxell books. So, I kind of have a clue, but not much more than that.
Usually consume about 300-500 rounds per month. Mostly into paper or steel. Small chance of doing any hunting with them around here.

For cast boolit lube, I would like to try the Bayou Bullets coating as that seems to be a little easier to get set up with than powder coating and is supposed to be less messy than Alox.

I slugged my barrel and cylinders last night by melting fishing weights into 38spl cases and then driving those through (just the slug, not the casing). For the barrel I went all the way down and it seemed pretty consistent in effort level once it was started. No perceptible binding.
Barrel: .356
Cylinders: .357 - .3575

For lead I have purchased about 140lbs of COWW from Jetsfan.

For my shopping list, I will likely be getting a lot of Lee products to start due to low initial investment. I can always up the mold quality later. I have a Lee turret and Lee dies for pistol and rifle and they have served me well. I will be sizing on the turret as that is the only press I have at present.

For the furnace, I am thinking the 20lb Lee Pro 4 bottom pour.
For the mold, I am a little torn. I would like to have a "genuine Keith design SWC" for no other reason than nostalgia, but I didn't see any on Midway or Midsouth. I don't want to mess with gas checks as I am likely not going to load these above +P let alone 12-1500fps and from what I have read, Ol' Elmer was pretty adamant about a flat base over a bevel base, so I don't see that the extra lip on the 358-158 would be a good thing. So, the molds I have it narrowed down to are:
358-140 SWC (http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000690317)
TL358-158 SWC (http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000690295)

A "Genuine Keith" may have to wait.

Both of these are six cavity as I think doing batches of 500 or 1,000 could be time consuming doing them two at a time. Right or wrong? And it would really be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" until I try them and shoot them. Obviously, one allows for wax lube later if I choose to go that route. One has a lot of narrow bands vs two wide ones.

Are either of these good to start? If not, I am open to suggestions but a $100 mold is not in the cards right now.

I am thinking that I would want to get a sizing die of .358. Is that the correct sizing die based on my barrel and cyl. dimensions? If not, then what?

Thanks in advance

[Pb2au]

Don't bother with gas checked bullets for your application. No need for them.
Lee molds on the whole work well. Clean them thoroughly, check the edges of the cavities for burrs, (remove any with a light touch of a new exacto blade.) Also do a search here for "Lee-menting".
The lee melting pot will work swell. Keep a pie pan under it in case it decides to have a drip.
Sized to .358 should work fine, the barrel will take care of the rest.
I am not a tumble lube kinda guy, but that is not to say it does not work for a lot of folks here. It boils down to application and preference. If you go with a conventional lube groove design, look into pan lubing then sizing.

[Landshark9025]

Thanks, PB2au.

Question, isn't pan lubing a bit of a time sink when you are going to do a few hundred at a time? Also, will it create the same smoke and mess that "store bought" hard cast lube bullets do? I am not in a mad rush for production as this is a total hobby for me, but I do have somewhat of a limited time.

Appreciate the opinion!

[Pb2au]

Pan lubing is a bit time consuming for sure. That is why I personally do not use that method. I started with dipping the bullets in the melted lube then passing them through a Lee sizer. It did work quite well. Eventually I bought a Lyman lube-sizer and now that is my general method.
The Lyman can have some drawbacks to consider. For those that cast for say 6.5mm, those long thin boolits can get bent ever so slightly in the Lyman. For most applications, it does do a fine job though.

[Walter Laich]

sounds like you have done your homework....A+ (I was an elementary teacher in another life)
I'll throw out some things:
thermometer to keep track of lead temp--dial on Lee pot doesn't equal temp or anything that we know of
Leather gloves.
Eye protection
I have Lyman 450 luber/sizer with a heater. Works for me quite well but looking at some cash investment there. some kind of tumble lube and the Lee push through sizer also works well. You can always move up to a true luber/sizer down the road.
Sawdust to flux the lead with--right now the choice of most on the board--usually free
.
When you get down to it, casting is not that hard. You put the liquid lead in the mold, give it a second and then cut the sprue. Open the mold, get the bullets out and repeat. Oh, yes, the smile on your face is part of the process, too
.
welcome and keep those questions coming

[Landshark9025]

Thanks, Walter. You are spot on with the thermometer and gloves. Those and a face shield are on the "can't start without" list. I recognize a face shield may be over kill and I will have to see if it is too cumbersome or hot vs. regular safety glasses. I was debating a hardness tester, but that is on the "don't complicate it right off the bat" list.

I was thinking paraffin for the flux due to the bottom pour spout. Is sawdust better?

If you were me, which mold would you buy? And would you go two or six cavity?

Also, I am planning to water drop cool as Donnie at Bayou Bullets said that the baking process for his coatings softens them a tad. I may try the 45/45/10 process starting out though. In which case I will likely air cool.

Think I am OK with straight COWW or should I have some tin ready to add in case it needs aid in filling out the grooves?

Thoughts?


sounds like you have done your homework....A+ (I was an elementary teacher in another life)
I'll throw out some things:
thermometer to keep track of lead temp--dial on Lee pot doesn't equal temp or anything that we know of
Leather gloves.
Eye protection
I have Lyman 450 luber/sizer with a heater. Works for me quite well but looking at some cash investment there. some kind of tumble lube and the Lee push through sizer also works well. You can always move up to a true luber/sizer down the road.
Sawdust to flux the lead with--right now the choice of most on the board--usually free
.
When you get down to it, casting is not that hard. You put the liquid lead in the mold, give it a second and then cut the sprue. Open the mold, get the bullets out and repeat. Oh, yes, the smile on your face is part of the process, too
.
welcome and keep those questions coming

[Wayne Smith]

I'm not sure what "water drop cool" is. Any rapid temp change toward relative cold will harden ww metal to some extent. You can shoot these air cooled anyway, why complicate it with water dropping? As long as they fit and your lube lasts the length of the barrel you are good to go. It seems to be always advised to keep tin handy as an additive, I've never used it in 10+ years of casting. If I don't get full fill out I just turn up the heat a little.

On a bottom pour spout sawdust is a better flux, or better yet is a layer of cat litter (clay). This blocks the O2 from the surface of the pot completely. You can drop ingots through it without problem.

Make sure you have a place to do this that is not accessible to children.

[Landshark9025]

Hey Wayne, I picked up on the water cooling/quenching from some of the threads and videos like this one:
"Bullet Casting Part 2- Casting, Quenching, etc" …: http://youtu.be/5LqLJnsQ318

If it is unnecessary, I am happy to dispense with that step. The bucket or pan of water makes me nervous about calling the tinsel fairy by accident.

Hadn't considered clay kitty litter. Sounds like either that or sawdust is the way to go.

Thanks!


I'm not sure what "water drop cool" is. Any rapid temp change toward relative cold will harden ww metal to some extent. You can shoot these air cooled anyway, why complicate it with water dropping? As long as they fit and your lube lasts the length of the barrel you are good to go. It seems to be always advised to keep tin handy as an additive, I've never used it in 10+ years of casting. If I don't get full fill out I just turn up the heat a little.

On a bottom pour spout sawdust is a better flux, or better yet is a layer of cat litter (clay). This blocks the O2 from the surface of the pot completely. You can drop ingots through it without problem.

Make sure you have a place to do this that is not accessible to children.

[dragonrider]

"I was thinking paraffin for the flux due to the bottom pour spout. Is sawdust better?" Yes. Tinsel fair alert!!! Cover the surface of your melt with it, 1/2" or so, and allow it to char completely before mixing it up into the melt. No matter how dry you think your sawdust is, IT AIN'T. Mixing it up before it is charred will bring a visit. Mix it well by scooping and pouring. repeatedly.

Yes to the Lee 20 lb pot.

I do not tumble lube, I use a Star. If I were to tumble lube I would go with 45/45/10.

I am not a fan of tumble lube boolits. I use only straight COWW and water drop everything.

At this time of your new hobby you need only concentrate on casting good boolits. Everything else will come later. It will take practice, trial and error. One good thing about casting is you never make scrap, junk boolits just go back in the pot.

[TCFAN]

Of the two boolits you listed either one would work fine. I have a 6 cavity in both.If I had to choose between the two I would pick the TL358-158 SWC. I shoot this same boolit as cast and tumble lube with 45-45-10.My mold drops this boolit at .359-.360 form air cooled wheel weights.I use this boolit in 4 different guns and it works good in all of them. No leading at all and very good accuracy.

As for the flux, sawdust is the way to go in my opinion. But as dragonrider says let it char good before mixing it in.

If you load either boolit with 3.5gr. of Bullseye in a 38 special case you will have a good plinking and target load that is cheaper to shoot than 22RF ammo at today's prices.

Sounds like you have done your homework and you are well on your way to becoming a boolit caster.........Terry

[Pb2au]

Just stay away from those heretics in the powder coating forum. They have been huffing too much of that Chi-com powder coating powder from Harbor Freight.

[Landshark9025]

Cool. Thanks. Followup question: If the barrel measures .356, and let's say mine drops at .359-.360 like yours does, wouldn't that be a little tight? I am planning to size to .358 anyway, but just curious as to how much play there is.


Of the two boolits you listed either one would work fine. I have a 6 cavity in both.If I had to choose between the two I would pick the TL358-158 SWC. I shoot this same boolit as cast and tumble lube with 45-45-10.My mold drops this boolit at .359-.360 form air cooled wheel weights.I use this boolit in 4 different guns and it works good in all of them. No leading at all and very good accuracy.

As for the flux, sawdust is the way to go in my opinion. But as dragonrider says let it char good before mixing it in.

If you load either boolit with 3.5gr. of Bullseye in a 38 special case you will have a good plinking and target load that is cheaper to shoot than 22RF ammo at today's prices.

Sounds like you have done your homework and you are well on your way to becoming a boolit caster.........Terry

[Landshark9025]

Hey guys. Just a quick thanks for the replies and sorry for all the follow up questions. Seems every answer triggers another question! Appreciate the patience.

[Landshark9025]

Ha, PC looks cool, but I'll stick to making them round, the right size, and consistent before worrying about making them pretty.


Just stay away from those heretics in the powder coating forum. They have been huffing too much of that Chi-com powder coating powder from Harbor Freight.

[Love Life]

I despise tumble lube designs and only use bullets with traditional lube grooves....even with LLA which is actually good stuff.

The Bayou coating is actually HI-TEK Super Coat from Australia. It is the unadulterated bee's knees. I would wait before buying because the powdered version is coming soon and it will be easier to work with.

Lee products are legit and usually worth the money. The 4-20 bottom pour I have has been in use for years and run several hundred lbs of alloy at a minimum. I keep hoping it'll break so I can get a promelt, but no dice yet.

Water dropping probably won't be necessary as long as your bullet size is correct. .356 seems a bit small for barrel dimensions but you have to play the hand you're dealt.

[TCFAN]

Can't really answer you question. I have never slugged a barrel to get a measurement.I don't know what my barrels measure.They may be as tight as yours ...or not.. I just don't know.All I do know is any boolit that drops from the mold at .360 or smaller gets tumbled lube and shot with the 3.5 gr. of Bullseye. If I am using a hotter load with a gas check boolit then I lube in a Lyman 450 with a .363 die using BAC and size at .359 in a lee size die.....Terry


Cool. Thanks. Followup question: If the barrel measures .356, and let's say mine drops at .359-.360 like yours does, wouldn't that be a little tight? I am planning to size to .358 anyway, but just curious as to how much play there is.

[sigep1764]

I live in an apartment, so space was limited from the get go. I just dont have the counter space to tumble lube or powder coat 1000 bullets at a time. I went on the hunt for a lubrisizer and cabelas had the Lyman 4500 without heater for $125 and sticks of Alox for $5. I am very happy with this route. The sizing dies can be had from Midway or Amazon for $20-$30. It kept everything space conscious and simple.

[gwpercle]

Your wheel-weights will be plenty hard, don't go to all the trouble to water drop. I discovered adding 50% range scrap or scrap lead actually gave me more accurate boolits and stretched my supply of WW's. They can be too hard, especialy at lower velocities. This actually adds to leading! Velocity, pressure and hardness is a balancing act that gets you accurate and non-leading boolits. Be careful sizing water dropped/hardened boolits. They are tough to shove through a die and cold working softens the boolit back to as cast hardness.

I commend your purchase and reading of several different manuals, best thing when getting started. A lot of info is confusing and seems contradictory but just keep asking questions, read and throw in some common sense and you will do just fine.
Welcome to the addiction.
Gary

[Landshark9025]

How is the mess with that setup? The thing that is steering me away from hard lube is the mess all over our hands and guns. With the store bought boolits, after 50 or 100 it gets pretty bad and does not wipe off your hands easily.


I live in an apartment, so space was limited from the get go. I just dont have the counter space to tumble lube or powder coat 1000 bullets at a time. I went on the hunt for a lubrisizer and cabelas had the Lyman 4500 without heater for $125 and sticks of Alox for $5. I am very happy with this route. The sizing dies can be had from Midway or Amazon for $20-$30. It kept everything space conscious and simple.

[Landshark9025]

Thanks, Gary. Water cooled is now off the table (for now). I will get started with just the WW. Once I get a clue, then maybe I will pick up some range scrap and add it.

Thanks for the positive feedback.


Your wheel-weights will be plenty hard, don't go to all the trouble to water drop. I discovered adding 50% range scrap or scrap lead actually gave me more accurate boolits and stretched my supply of WW's. They can be too hard, especialy at lower velocities. This actually adds to leading! Velocity, pressure and hardness is a balancing act that gets you accurate and non-leading boolits. Be careful sizing water dropped/hardened boolits. They are tough to shove through a die and cold working softens the boolit back to as cast hardness.

I commend your purchase and reading of several different manuals, best thing when getting started. A lot of info is confusing and seems contradictory but just keep asking questions, read and throw in some common sense and you will do just fine.
Welcome to the addiction.
Gary

[sigep1764]

101350101349
How is the mess with that setup? The thing that is steering me away from hard lube is the mess all over our hands and guns. With the store bought boolits, after 50 or 100 it gets pretty bad and does not wipe off your hands easily.

No mess at all and stick form Alox is not all that hard. No heater needed. Here's a pic.

[sigep1764]

How do I get the pic to upload from an android phone?
Never mind, figured it out.

[Landshark9025]

Hey Sig,

I likely should have been more clear. When I said "mess" I was referring to while shooting them. See, when I tried some hard cast SWCs from Berry's recently, they really foul the outside of the cylinders, which transfers to the hands, etc. You get pretty grimy after about 50-100 rounds at the range. And since this is a "together" thing for the wife and I, it kind of kills it for her. That is why I was thinking of going to either the 45/45/10 or the Hi-Tech coating from Bayou.

When you shoot these are they smoky and messy or not?

Thanks,


101350101349

No mess at all and stick form Alox is not all that hard. No heater needed. Here's a pic.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm using the TL358-158-SWC (among others) - mine drop right around .358 from my mold out of range lead. I just TL them - put some in a tupperware bowl - heat with hair dryer - add a dollop of paste wax - swirl - squeeze a SMALL amount of Alox in - swirl - set out to dry on wax paper over night. They dry well - no stickiness if you don't get carried away with the Alox.

I'm loading them over 3.0 gr of BE for a plinking load (this is what I'm using - YMMV so check your loading manuals for min/max loads). They shoot we'll out of my 4" Combat Masterpiece and 5" M & P as well as my Ruger NV. I wasn't sure how well I'd like the TL design but so far, they work out great. Easy to load - I roll crimp in the top groove. No leading in any of my shooting irons.

Lots of lubes you can try as well - all depends how much time you want to put in to it. What I do works well for me as far as lubing my cast - I can run a thousand boolits of different designs over a couple of casting sessions - lube 'em all in an evening and put 'em away in containers.

I have three different loading data manuals - each gives a different Min/Max load of BE for a 158gr lead boo lit. I could load mine a little hotter but for the type of shooting I'm doing, the mild loads seem to be the "sweet spot" for my wheel guns - the mild load makes it an enjoyable afternoon to put 250 - 300 down range at a session.

[sigep1764]

When I shoot them, there seems to be less smoke with the soft Alox than the hard lube on some of the commercial cast boolits I've shot in the past. A lot of that can depend on your powder as well. And I usually go through 300-500 rounds per range trip, which is weekly. My guns wipe clean from any residue just like I was shooting factory ammo. And you should always wash your hands after a shooting session.

[MtGun44]

Strongly recommend Lee 358 158 RF design (conventional lube) with NRA 50-50 or LBT soft
blue. Size to cyl throats (or just try .358 diam, should work). Cast from air cooled wheel wt
alloy, about 11-12 BHN usually, adding 1-2% tin helps casting fillout immensely.

I understand the attraction of LLA but hate the smell and sticky mess all over the boolits
from mule snot. Add in the marginal nature of the lube and substantial numbers of failures
with it and I really don't recommend it. Save up and buy a used Lyman or RCBS lubrisizer
and never look back.

Bill

[Landshark9025]

Hi all, thanks for the input and help. Midway's free shipping promo put me over the edge. I settled on the Lee 140g SWC, not the tumble lube type for now. I figure I can 90/90/10 it for now or use a lubrisizer when I get one. Yeah, likely just a matter of time. Of course, I am under no illusion this will be the last mold I buy :). Looks like the 358-158 RF is on the list.
Might need some input on load development with either Unique or 700-x as I don't see anything listed for 140g and those are the only powders I have right now. That will be almost a month away though by time I get the stuff, clean and prep it, leement the mold, etc. then finally cast some keepers and let them "cure".

Now to pick up some gloves, sawdust, etc.

Thanks again!

[Landshark9025]

Almost forgot, I settled on a two cavity mold as everything I read stresses consistent mold temp and casting "cadence". I figure starting out that would be easier on a two cavity to see the sprue, keep things lined up, etc. If a pour is off timed, I only have two to throw back. If I am wrong, I am only out $20 for the mold.

[TXGunNut]

2-cav is a good strategy, you can sometimes upgrade to more cavities if your gun likes the design. Correct cadence will come in time, sometimes a 6-cav is easier to get a cadence for than a 2-cav.

[threewheels]

you might want to read the sticky about lee menting your mould and the the one about mould lube before you start casting it may save you some grief

[Landshark9025]

Thanks, threewheels. I did just that. I didn't polish it (as I was anxious), but I did disassemble, clean, lubed with just a touch of A/C oil and smoked it. Once the mold and the melt were up to temp, they fell out with just a shake at most. Had less maybe 5-10 out of 125 where I had to tap the mold pivot.

Think I should still polish the mold?


you might want to read the sticky about lee menting your mould and the the one about mould lube before you start casting it may save you some grief

[threewheels]

If they are falling out of the mould ok the need to polish is not there I have only had to polish a couple of my moulds

[jlchucker]

Hey Wayne, I picked up on the water cooling/quenching from some of the threads and videos like this one:
"Bullet Casting Part 2- Casting, Quenching, etc" …: http://youtu.be/5LqLJnsQ318

If it is unnecessary, I am happy to dispense with that step. The bucket or pan of water makes me nervous about calling the tinsel fairy by accident.

Hadn't considered clay kitty litter. Sounds like either that or sawdust is the way to go.

Thanks!

I generally load everything I shoot with either straight wheelweights or a 50-50 mix of wheelweights and pure lead. I've never done the water quenching thing yet, and have gotten by OK. Not to say that those that quench are wasting time, but I'm only saying I've never done it, and never encountered a problem. I use LS Stuff 50-50 lube, with a 450 Lyman lubricator. The only exception is when I cast with a Ranchdog special-order mold for a 240 grain 44 boolit. This mold is a 6 cavity--3 of the gascheck design and 3 with plain base. These boolits have tumble-lube grooves. If I don't tumble lube them, but try to lube conventionally, I always end up with a mess. I bought a bottle of LS Stuff's tumble lube "stuff" and it works OK but that's a tedious problem--as is the Kake Cutter method. I have always used paraffin to flux with, and am not above tossing some waste 50-50 lube in the pot as well. I've not tried the sawdust method (yet) but an elderly gunsmith friend of mine has, and says I should try it. He probably started with it back in the days before other fluxes were invented LOL.

[jlchucker]

I despise tumble lube designs and only use bullets with traditional lube grooves....even with LLA which is actually good stuff.

The Bayou coating is actually HI-TEK Super Coat from Australia. It is the unadulterated bee's knees. I would wait before buying because the powdered version is coming soon and it will be easier to work with.

Lee products are legit and usually worth the money. The 4-20 bottom pour I have has been in use for years and run several hundred lbs of alloy at a minimum. I keep hoping it'll break so I can get a promelt, but no dice yet.

Water dropping probably won't be necessary as long as your bullet size is correct. .356 seems a bit small for barrel dimensions but you have to play the hand you're dealt.

Love Life, LLA is actually good stuff, but like you, I'd rather use a boolit design with conventional lube grooves. Never tried Bayou coating. I've used Lee bottom pours ever since I started in the 1970's, and still have the smaller one, although it's finally on the edge of crapping out. But that's a whole lot of boolits later. When my 4-20 breaks, I'll probably get a Pro-melt, like you say. Landshark said he had a Lyman lubricator. He could always size his boolits to .358, lube at the same time, and try them out. There's lots of guns that shoot .358 boolits pretty good, and if they don't work well, he could always drop what he hasn't shot up back into his melting pot and try again.

[jlchucker]

Thanks, Gary. Water cooled is now off the table (for now). I will get started with just the WW. Once I get a clue, then maybe I will pick up some range scrap and add it.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Landshark, never leave behind any spent boolits that you find in the target berms at your range. They'll always melt up pretty darn good with wheelweights and some scrap lead chimney flashing or lead pipe. I only wish the blasters who shoot at my club would quit using those ##$%^% copper-coated projectiles and go back to blasting away with naked, hard-cast loads again. Those melt up really nice.

[Landshark9025]

I should have read this before yesterday. I tried to polish them anyway as the boolits had some marks on them that looked like roughness in the mold. Very consistent, only on one side. When I polished them, now they don't release as well as they did. I will clean it again and resmoke it and hope that helps. Ugh.


If they are falling out of the mould ok the need to polish is not there I have only had to polish a couple of my moulds

[Landshark9025]

I would love to go "berm mining", but unfortunately it is a private range and they don't allow that. I could definitely see getting a couple hundred pounds of range scrap in a few hours with a tarp, two sawhorses and a screen.

[retread]

"I was thinking paraffin for the flux due to the bottom pour spout. Is sawdust better?" Yes. Tinsel fair alert!!! Cover the surface of your melt with it, 1/2" or so, and allow it to char completely before mixing it up into the melt. No matter how dry you think your sawdust is, IT AIN'T. Mixing it up before it is charred will bring a visit. Mix it well by scooping and pouring. repeatedly.


Don't ask how I know!