Light loading .38spec Experianced Loaders Open To Disguss Please.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

A little something that's been on my mind for a while now.

I have seen guys trying to achieve low recoiling .38spec loads for competition. No power factor is required in the discipline but high accuracy along with fast shot recovery will give the advantage.
The competition is based on the use of four inch barrel revolvers.

What I have seen done is guys using 105gr SWC's seated deep down inside the case, so the nose of the bullet is down inside the case mouth. Being charged with 2gr +/- of Trailboss.

My thinking on this OK you get a nice little 'powder-puff-no-kick', but...

To me it don't sit well.

1, Bullet has to take that huge big leap then get slammed into the rifling. Not good.

2, No way to crimp the bullet, only case tension to save bullets in chambers moving back and forth while guns being fired.

3, Also from no crimp powder ignition not assisted, or problems with bullet movement forward from primer before powder ignition.

4, Standard .38 brass (non WC type cases) swagging bullet base under size from such seat depth.

Open to discussion on this one. Any body else heard of loading this way?
Is my thinking on the above problems correct?

For now I sit and :popcorn: and await the response.

Thank you all.

[6bg6ga]

I'll wait too. I have a 148 wad cutter mold but I have never heard of seating it in that deep. It absolutely doesn't make any sense to me. I'm still a believer of having the bullet close to the forcing cone so the bullet doesn't have far to go.

[btroj]

Why deep seat them? Trailboss will ignite just fine with them seated normally.
I would expect better accuracy if they were seated longer but if the shooting discipline has weak enough accuracy requirements then that may not be an issue.

[smkummer]

I am loading Lee's TL356-124-2R bullet made for 9mm and sized to .358 and 2.8 grains bullseye and crimped in the last tumble lube groove so it looks like a standard bullet. Very light load intended for a ladies training load out of lightweight alloy snub nose revolvers such as a Colt cobra. I did see that this load with a flatpoint cowboy 125 grain bullet was a suggested load for cowboy action. It works but it is on the fringe of having enough pressure to make a good bang. In fact when I first loaded it, I was using .356 sized bullets and about 1 in 6 had a somewhat noticeable poof sound compaired to a good bang. This bullet intended for the 9mm has less bearing surface with the rifling compared to a cowboy FP bullet intended for the 38 special. I probably won't load it again because the good old standard 2.8 grains bullseye and the 148 plain base wadcutter is light enough for my purposes. Again, as long as I sized to .358, the issue mostly went away. good luck

[GRid.1569]

Here's how I did it back in the Pre-Pistol ban days in the UK...

I shot 1500 (PPC) and similar comps - I used swaged 100 grn HBWC and either a standard charge (3.0grns) of Vhit N310 for the 25m+ stages or 2.0grns for 15m & 10m stuff... it's like shooting an air pistol from those heavier PPC revolvers.. sights hardly bounce off target... only problem is... what to do with all that spare time you'll have in the timed exposures stages :-)

Got it down to 1.3 grns - shot at 25m and there's a perceiveably delay before bullet strikes are heard.. didn't break through the target backing board (3mm plywood)

[2shot]

I have used the Lee 105 SWC in 38 Special with as low as 1.0 grains of Bullseye. I have also used 1.5 grains and 2.0 grains of Bullseye with the same boolit. All of the loads would stay inside the black of a B-2 target at 50 feet. The 1.0 grain load had to have the barrel tipped up before firing otherwise I got inconsistant ignition and I could watch ALL the boolits going down range in a dimmly lite inside range whether I tipped the barrel or not. The 1.5 and 2.0 grain loads I didn't have to tip the barrel and the recoil was less that a 22 LR and sound wise was like a 32 S&W long. These were shot out of a S&W Model 14 w/6" barrel, Remington cases and Remington SP primer, crimped to the crimp groove on the Lee 105 SWC with a light crimp. I did not chronograph these loads (should have) but I would think they were in the 500-600 fps range, maybe lower. Boolits were cast out of range scrap and pushed through a Lee .358 sizing die, lubed with JPW rubbed into lube groove. I tried using my RCBS sizer but the boolits were so soft that they would deform when I tried to size them.

I was going to use these loads for my indoor Bullseye league but decided not to so I didn't have to change my sight settings from the outdoor leage that shoots at 50 yards and for that I use the Remington 148 gr. HBWC w/2.7 grains of BE

2shot

[Outpost75]

Bullets with a short ratio of length to diameter are more easily misaligned in transitioning from the revolver cylinder and forcing cone. My most accurate, low recoil loads have been with 148-grain HBWC bullets, seated out to 1.20" OAL, so that the front driving band enters the cylinder throat, to center the round, rather than having a flush-seated round flop loose and randomly in the chambers. In a 10"-twist PPC gun you can load as light as 2 grains of Bullseye, in a 14" twist Colt 2.5 grains of Bullseye, but in a slow twist S&W you need to shoot full charge wadcutters of 3.0-3.2 grains of Bullseye with soft-swaged HBWCs, or 3.5 grains of Bullseye with solid base or DEWC wadcutters, such as H&G#50 or Saeco #348.

My full charge 146-grain DEWC loads of Saeco#348 in W-W cases, with WSP primer and 3.5 grains of Bullseye, bullets cast no harder than 12 BHN, loaded as-cast and unsized, lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox shoot tighter groups at 50 yards than the lighter bullets do at 25.

But if all you want to do is plink cans and make noise, then none of this matters.

[Love Life]

To the OP- What do the targets tell you? At the end of the day, that is all that matters.

[Larry Gibson]

My comments here are applicable to SASS style cowboy action shooting.

Realize that in SASS cowboy action shooting the targets are big and the range is short (10 yards or under with handguns. Usually 25 yards or under with the rifle) and all that's necessary is to "ring steel" and the fastest time cleaning the targets with no penalties wins. The minimum required power factor is 60 with a 400 fps minimum velocity. I did extensive cowboy action load R&D for a cartridge company and for VV using Tin Star powder (N32C). The .38 SPL was tested extensively with the Lee 105 SWC and the Laser Cast 125 TC bullets.

I found with fast SAA (Uberti "Evil Roy") shooting with those 2 bullets and light CBA loads there was a distinct trade off of accuracy if recoil was to little. The rapid hammer throw with minimal recoil loads using the 105 SWC in particular caused the shots to walk low and away with misses (10" steel plates; 5 in a row at 10 yards) on the last 2 shots very probable. A little recoil proved beneficial in bringing the muzzle back up for sight acquisition and the hammer back to the left thumb for fast cocking when shooting fast. With no recoil the heavy hammer throw can drive the muzzle down when shooting very fast. I've discussed this with Evil Roy and a couple other champion SASS shooters and they agree that a bit of recoil is beneficial.

The minimal Tin Star load I found success with the 105 SWC ran right at 850 fps. I was getting all 5 hits with the fastest times using that load. Anything less and I had at least 1 miss and no improvement in time.

The 125 gr TC bullet proved the better choice all around for the .38 SPL in CBA shooting. At 690 - 700 fps (4 3/4" revolver) the accuracy and power factor are there plus minimal recoil for better hammer cocking and target acquisition. It also feeds reliably in the M73 rifles whereas the 105 SWCs don't.

The bullets were seated to normal seating depths for the bullets in the 38 SPL.

Larry Gibson

[Groo]

Groo here
Do a search for PPC loads on line.
In PPC light loads were all the rage and the 148gr hbwc with 2.7gr Bullseye ruled .
Just be careful as light loads can cause problems.
Hang fires, stuck bullets, and then there is the K-Boom.[ which may be caused by a sever hang fire and a loose case]

[KYCaster]

I think the deep seated, light boolit technique started with the cowboy shooters looking for speed advantage. I think the practice has been banned by SASS and they now require that bullets be seated no deeper than flush to the case mouth and meet a minimum power factor.

In theory......recoil impulse is basically a function of projectile weight and velocity, so reducing the weight of the boolit and powder will result in lower recoil impulse. Taken to the extreme, you eventually get to the point of inconsistent powder ignition, which can have an adverse effect on accuracy.....not to mention the danger of possibly sticking a bullet in the barrel with a squib load.

Ignition consistency can be greatly improved by reducing case capacity. One easy way to achieve this is by seating the boolit deeper in the case.

No need to worry about the boolit moving under recoil since recoil is minimal and boolit mass is very low.

Problems related to internal case taper can be easily remedied in the 38Spl. by using "wadcutter" brass that doesn't have the internal taper. Though much harder to find, balloon head cases without internal taper are still around for 44Spl. and 45Colt.

From your description, I just assume that this game is a just-for-fun offshoot of PPC with minimal rules. There's nothing wrong with that, but one point you should consider......if the game requires a reload on the clock, then any advantage you might gain by reducing the recoil to nothing will be more than offset when you try to reload with those empty case mouths.

Good luck...and have fun.
Jerry

[robertbank]

My comments here are applicable to SASS style cowboy action shooting.

Realize that in SASS cowboy action shooting the targets are big and the range is short (10 yards or under with handguns. Usually 25 yards or under with the rifle) and all that's necessary is to "ring steel" and the fastest time cleaning the targets with no penalties wins. The minimum required power factor is 60 with a 400 fps minimum velocity. I did extensive cowboy action load R&D for a cartridge company and for VV using Tin Star powder (N32C). The .38 SPL was tested extensively with the Lee 105 SWC and the Laser Cast 125 TC bullets.

I found with fast SAA (Uberti "Evil Roy") shooting with those 2 bullets and light CBA loads there was a distinct trade off of accuracy if recoil was to little. The rapid hammer throw with minimal recoil loads using the 105 SWC in particular caused the shots to walk low and away with misses (10" steel plates; 5 in a row at 10 yards) on the last 2 shots very probable. A little recoil proved beneficial in bringing the muzzle back up for sight acquisition and the hammer back to the left thumb for fast cocking when shooting fast. With no recoil the heavy hammer throw can drive the muzzle down when shooting very fast. I've discussed this with Evil Roy and a couple other champion SASS shooters and they agree that a bit of recoil is beneficial.

The minimal Tin Star load I found success with the 105 SWC ran right at 850 fps. I was getting all 5 hits with the fastest times using that load. Anything less and I had at least 1 miss and no improvement in time.

The 125 gr TC bullet proved the better choice all around for the .38 SPL in CBA shooting. At 690 - 700 fps (4 3/4" revolver) the accuracy and power factor are there plus minimal recoil for better hammer cocking and target acquisition. It also feeds reliably in the M73 rifles whereas the 105 SWCs don't.

The bullets were seated to normal seating depths for the bullets in the 38 SPL.

Larry Gibson

This! I cast for a member of CASS up here and he swears by the 125 TC Lyman 356402 boolit. I size them 358 and his Rugers and his Rifle loves them.

Take Care

Bob

[bangerjim]

I love 38 SPL's! And 357 MAG. I play with a bunch of different loads and boolits.

Recently I have been loading TWO 000 buckshot balls (still connected together from the Lee mold) with 1.2gn of TightGroup. A real nice quite load! I tamp a bit of Dacron fluff down in there to hold the powder in place. Flair the case mouth so balls will fit and not scrape off the PC. I load so the outer ball center is just at the rim of the case and give virtually no crimp...just enough to bring the mouth back into size.

I run them thru the 38 sizing die with only 2 balls, after cutting off the 3rd one. Sizing all 3 tends to scrape off the PC, as the assembly tends to go all catty-whompus thru the die.

I DT powder coat the 000's and do not need any lube. Have shot a bunch out of a 38/357 lever (they DO chamber well) and my 38 revolver.

Just another idea for thought!

banger

[LtFrankDrebbin]

While I thank you all for the input, it's all kind of off-track to my original post.

Not looking for how-to-do-it's, more the safety/ creation of problems involved with seating such light bullets so deep.

Myself? I have no desire to do this. I will stick with tried and tested traditional .38spec loading of 150gr WC or 158gr RN with recommended seating depth @ a velocity the gun will give good groups within standard load data/pressure limits.
If the gun kicks a bit....learn to hang on. That's my view.

OK I re-read my original post and it does need some fix ups. (late night red eyes, my bad).
Input please related to original post, that's now had a slight edit.

[Outpost75]

101289

Re-reading the OP, my experience using Saeco #348, (photo above) 146-grain, double-end, bevel-based wadcutter has been favorable for light training loads used mostly from near-contact to 15 yards, as lower recoil loads in ladies revolver classes, in the 2-4" fixed sight guns they group as well or better than GI Ball M41 and similar "range ammo" or the old 158-LRN. but with low recoil, accuracy being reasonable down to 2 grains of Bullseye.

Overall cartridge length is 1.20" to 1.25," so that the front band / bevel are outside the case, to aid reloading with Bianchi Speed Strips or speed loaders, as shown in photo below:

101290

BEST accuracy is with full charge at 3.5 grains of Bullseye, but for low recoil training and practice load, ballistic uniformity and accuracy are acceptable down to 2 grains of Bullseye. I do not recommend loading Bullseye this light with 158 SWC or LRN bullets seated out, or with wadcutters loaded longer than 1.25", because the increased airspace in the case seems to contribute to greater velocity variation.

As for deep seating in the case to reduce airspace, this seems good in theory, but case wall thicknesses vary and if the bullet is not held in place with a rolled cannelure, bullets may re-position in the case from recoil, which could affect ballistic uniformity. I cannot say that that the practice is "dangerous," but I don't see it as recommended practice. Some coowboy shooters I know have gotten acceptable results using .38 Long Colt or Short Colt brass to assemble light loads, but I do not care for the lead fouling ring this deposits in the front of the chambers.

A 146-148 grain wadcutter seated deeply enough to take up some of the airspace, in common and plentiful, inexpensive .38 Special brass, loaded with the lightest charge which shoots uniformly and well, having a beveled base seated outside the case mouth to ease reloading, is well proven in MANY years of use.

Using OLD Hercules Bullseye (pre-Alliant) William Dresser, in his excellent article "Minimum Loads in Handguns," reprinted in the NRA Handloader's Guide, loaded down to 1.5 grains with good results using soft-swaged, 148 HBWCs. If you still have the OLD stuff, these training loads are a great way to make it last a VERY long time.

I still have about half of a red steel, 15-lb. commercial keg I bought in the 1970s I treat as if it were gold dust.