Defense loads, food for thought

[trucker76]

I have noticed in some threads people mentioning about their defense loads. Now I am not an expert. Massad Ayoob is. For those that have never heard of him, he has been published in many magazines as well as having several books including the gun digest guide to concealed carry. He was a police officer and is considered an expert witness and has appeared many times in court for police and civilian cases in that capacity.

In his guide to concealed carry he addresses handloads for defensive carry as a very bad idea for a few reasons. Reason number 1, in a self defense carry shooting you are not disputing you shot the other person, but you have to prove it was in self defense. Crime labs use ballistics from factory ammo only. So say for instance you and an attacker were struggling, close up, and you managed to get the gun to his head and shoot him, but the angle was from the back of his head. The crime lab will test powder residue and will use factory ammo as a baseline. They will not use other ammo left in the gun and they will not use ammo from your home. Anything you made is considered tampered with. So they test the factory ammo and based on that they find that the gun wasn't inches away, but a few feet away making it look you shot an attacker in the back of the head as they were fleeing. That is just a rough outline of the case he cited in the book.

Also something to think about is the prosecution, civil and criminal. By using your own handloaded ammo and specially your own cast bullets it is possible for the prosecution to say that factory ammo wasn't good enough for you. That you had to make your own "special" killer ammunition and specifically set out to kill anyone you shot, that could be construed as premeditation.

In all the recommendation was use what the police use. I know speer gold dot is a good defensive load and is used by police. So should I ever need to use my weapon in self defense I am covered in that the lab can use any box of ammo I used off the shelf and get the same result in testing. And that since I was using the same ammo as law enforcement they can't get me for using "super bullets".

Just something to think about. The book is a very good read as are Massad's other works.

[jmort]

101112

Never ever, has there been a case where someone was convicted of a crime for using reloads in the history of the United States. A man, Mr. Fish was convicted of a crime and evidence was introduced that he used a powerful 10mm and had advanced firearms training and had lots of guns and ammunition.
Mr. Fish had to appeal and get a new trial. So using this logic, don't use a 10mm or get advanced firearms training or have lots of guns and ammunition as we know for sure that can get you in trouble. Listen to Ayboob all you want, I will stick with what is real.

[Love Life]

My eyes!!!

[1Shirt]

I believe there was a thread someplace that said that there has never been a case where prosecution has been able to use the hand load factor. However, I am about convinced that for home protection, particularly for a woman it is hard to bead a short bbl, double action 38S, with soft cast WC bullets, loaded to listed max vols. 5-6 clean .358 holes in a perp from inside of household ranges of probably less than 50-20 feet would do the trick I think. Just my opinion!
1shirt!

[EMC45]

This again? Oh boy.......

[jmort]

Ayboobs's main case is a guy who killed his girlfriend and he said she committed suicide. Liar. The judge would not allow evidence from the defense on the reloads as the judge ruled it was unreliable evidence. Moral of that story, is don't kill your girlfriend. BTW, I believe the judge made the wrong decision on the admissibility of the defense evidence, but that was a subjective decision by the judge. If only the killer had Judge Ito.

[btroj]

Man, this hasn't been mentioned in a few years here.

This is theory, not reality. Show me multiple cases where this actually happened and I might buy it. If a shoot is good it is good.

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zpsa8dce0cb.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zpsa8dce0cb.jpg.html)

[jmort]

101113

Dead Horse. BTW, Ayboob sells insurance to protect you in a self-defense shooting.

[btroj]

Did someone use reloads to kill Doe Run?

[jmort]

I was not going to play the Doe Run card. You just had to go there.

[BruceB]

I use strictly commercial loads in my defense guns.

I don't worry about being CONVICTED because of my possible use of handloads. The problem lies in the jury room. I have served on juries, and strange things can happen behind those closed doors.

If a prosecutor can create an erroneous IMPRESSION about the defendant in the minds of the jurors, that impression can easily sway a verdict. If he paints the defendant as a kill-crazy jungle nut, brewing "special" ammunition in his basement to murder his neighbors, what weight will that carry with the un-knowing jurors?

I choose to NOT allow the prosecutor that opportunity, simply by using good factory ammunition.

It's a no-brainer.... REDUCE THE POTENTIAL RISKS as much as possible. Many factors in a shooting situation are beyond our control, but choice of ammunition IS a controllable factor.

[jmort]

Agree, look what happened to Mr. Fish and his "factory" 10mm ammunition?

[338RemUltraMag]

If any court gets down to "you used reloads" you were guilty from the start, get the needle and thread to sew up your butt, you are going to prison.

If you are in a justified shooting you will not normally (in my state) see a court room, first the leade investigator will say it was justified, then the DA will look it over, then you are good to go. If you see the inside of a court room, the shooting was QUESTIONABLE, remember if the DA drags you to court it means the evidence of self defense was NOT strong enough to rule it a black and white self defense shooting

Rant off

[Outpost75]

We should all carry .32 autos, because if you carry a .45 you were planning for a fight?

[theperfessor]

I've always that MA was an entertaining writer, but he has his own hot button topics. I load up with what performs best in the gun I'm carrying at the time. No verifiable history of handloads being legal problem in self defense shootings. Skepticism abounds in my mind!

[dragon813gt]

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231407/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

Let's be clear that just because someone's thoughts are in print that doesn't make them an expert. Everyone knows that you have to have a microphone in front of you to be an expert. Well I guess you could be on the radio or TV and that makes you an expert. And I guess having an Internet blog makes you an expert. Should I keep going?

[popper]

IMHO the only legal problem is if my kin have to sue the manufacturer if it doesn't go bang when it should. I can maintain my QC on my reloads.

[Piedmont]

We should all carry .32 autos, because if you carry a .45 you were planning for a fight?
I always wondered why you were so stuck on those pea shooters.

[fredj338]

I personally don't see the value of loading my own SD loads. In most instances, the better bullets are not available to the reloader anyway & you are not going to improve on the performance in most instances. You will never go to jail for using reloaded ammo. You will be sued in civil court & handloads are not going to help you there.

[osteodoc08]

Wasnt there a guy who was recently strung up in DC for having a sabot (for BP rifle) and they deemed it ammunition? I dont trust any lawyers or judges to act in good faith anymore. Granted, if it is a justifiable shooting there *shouldn't* be any issues. By using factory ammo, it is just one less headache to have to deal with should I find myself in front of a Jury. But yeah, dont believe everything you read, even if it is from Massad Ayoob.

[garym1a2]

In a shootout only a few things matter.
1. My family survives.
2. My freinds survive.
3. I do not shoot innocents.
4. I survive.
5. My gun goes bang when it should and bullet does what it's supposed to do.

I worry about legal issues latter.

that said my defense guns are 40 cal and 45acp Gold Dots.

[dragon813gt]

In most instances, the better bullets are not available to the reloader anyway & you are not going to improve on the performance in most instances.

Didn't realize they took Gold Dots and XTPs off the market. We're talking self defense so that narrows it down to 9mm/40/45 for the vast majority of people. And those bullets are available for them. They're available for revolver cartridges as well. So that first point doesn't hold much water. But I do agree about the second part. Trying to beat factory performance is going to be tough. But for some people it comes down to cost. It's expensive to practice w/ factory SD ammo. So it makes sense to reload using the same bullets and "close enough" performance so you can practice. Now carrying cast loads is a different ballgame all together.

[Bohica793]

I handload my defensive loads but not for the purposes of making them hotter. I purposely load .45ACP with soft, hand cast lead 215 grain hollow point at lower velocities than factory specifically to avoid the possibility of over penetration. My concern is not the guy I have to drop a hammer on, but the 6 year old kid standing behind him.

[theperfessor]

Some of the worst ammo I've ever bought was a box of WW Silvertips in .44 Special. I don't carry anything I haven't range tested. Velocities varied from a little over 400 fps to over 800 fps, I swear I could see some of the bullets flying downrange. None of my handloads has ever been that bad! I'm just glad I didn't stick a bullet in the barrel.

I carry factory HP loads in my .38 snubby; I carry my own handloads in .44s. I hope to never have to shoot anybody with either, but if I do what I am carrying probably won't even cross my mind, I hope I am thinking about cover, concealment, and gaining a tactical advantage.

[Bullshop Junior]

Did someone use reloads to kill Doe Run?

What the heck is doe run.

[theperfessor]

Doe Run is where they are storing all the gas checks people aren't putting on bullets after they ask if you can shoot a GC bullet w/o a GC. They also store all the extra lube grooves that Waksupi hasn't hoarded there.

[Bullshop Junior]

If you are shooting jacketed bullets you are not a reloader. You are just some guy trying to act cool.

That being said, any good shot from a 45 with a cast bullet or any style is gonna do some damage.

[osteodoc08]

If you are shooting jacketed bullets you are not a reloader. You are just some guy trying to act cool.

That being said, any good shot from a 45 with a cast bullet or any style is gonna do some damage.

Unless its their foot!

(Sorry Daniel, couldnt resist. I know you get tired of it. It's only cause we love you.)

[Pb2au]

Doe Run is where they are storing all the gas checks people aren't putting on bullets after they ask if you can shoot a GC bullet w/o a GC. They also store all the extra lube grooves that Waksupi hasn't hoarded there.

Don't forget all of the powder that the guvment is buying up so we can't have any. And ammo. And Twinkies, by the gods man don't forget the Twinkies.

Pretty sure that's where they are also storing the data the NSA is backing up for us.

[dudel]

Start by saying, I hope I'm never in the position where I have to use my training with deadly force.

That said, people will use what they feel comfortable using. I save enough reloading, that I can afford a box or two of premium store bought ammo each year.

I may well win in court; but the expenses are not something I'd like to put the family through. In Texas, going through CHL class, reloads / hand loads were brought up by the instructor as a no-no. Not just his opinion, but reflecting the state's position. As to enforcement, I don't know; nor do I want to find out. As the officer said, the state was always looking for a few volunteer on which to create case law. I have no desire to give the opposition any ammo (pun intended). Too many prosecutors playing to an audience. To me, it's about risk management. I prefer to lower my risks. Handloads may or may not have been used before as an issue in trial, I just know that I don't want to be the first. There are a lot of smart people here; but Mas has a great deal of experience testifying on these issues in the courts. If anyone here has more (or equal) experience, speak now.

Thanks, I'd like to pass.

[Pb2au]

101123

[trucker76]

Wow, guess I'm behind the game, sorry to try and make a helpful post...Have you heard of the lady that sued mcdonalds because the coffee was hot....and won? Yet you are going to stand here and tell me a civil court can't possibly get people to rule against your handloads? You think the criminal jury is going to be full of gun enthusiasts that know what we know. So yeah your handloads are effective, you survived, your family is safe, and maybe you even won the criminal case. Enjoy losing everything when the families ambulance chaser wins a multi million dollar civil suit against you on behalf of the deceased family because your pride kept you from using ammo you didn't make. OJ won in criminal court, and lost his shirt in civil court.

Oh and being published may not necessarily make you an expert, being called as an expert witness in court kinda does. Hence his opinion just may carry more weight than yours should the judge ask.

Oh, and speer does offer 125gr gold dot in .38 made for snubbies. My fiancee carries them in her LCR.

[Moonie]

Wow, guess I'm behind the game, sorry to try and make a helpful post...Have you heard of the lady that sued mcdonalds because the coffee was hot....and won? Yet you are going to stand here and tell me a civil court can't possibly get people to rule against your handloads? You think the criminal jury is going to be full of gun enthusiasts that know what we know. So yeah your handloads are effective, you survived, your family is safe, and maybe you even won the criminal case. Enjoy losing everything when the families ambulance chaser wins a multi million dollar civil suit against you on behalf of the deceased family because your pride kept you from using ammo you didn't make. OJ won in criminal court, and lost his shirt in civil court.

Oh and being published may not necessarily make you an expert, being called as an expert witness in court kinda does. Hence his opinion just may carry more weight than yours should the judge ask.

Keep in mind, the coffee wasn't just hot, it caused VERY severe burns that required surgery. Much more to it than someone spilling hot coffee on themselves.

Use the search function, this comes up every couple of years, it has been thoroughly debunked, over and over.

Also note, in most states if you use a firearm for self defense against someone breaking the law you are immune from civil actions, it is certainly that way in NC. And don't for a moment think OJ used the knife in self defense...

[ratitude]

Just because Ayoob wrote it doesn't make it true. Always remember to think for yourself.

[375RUGER]

Since you and Mr. Ayoob say that they will "never" test your ammo, only factory ammo, then they can never prove that you make "special" killer ammo. Case closed.
Do you have some proof that they will never test anything but factory ammo? Or is it just hearsay?
Anyone who wants to prosecute you for defending yourself is more than prepared to make a case against you for that no matter what ammo you use.
Period.
It's up to you to make sure your defense is ready to make the case in your favor, no matter what ammo you use.
.
How long has this debate been going on anyway, 30 years now since he first published that?

[Love Life]

Don't forget all of the powder that the guvment is buying up so we can't have any. And ammo. And Twinkies, by the gods man don't forget the Twinkies.

Pretty sure that's where they are also storing the data the NSA is backing up for us.

They area also storinig all the 22lr that the dragons have been buying up.

[Pb2au]

They area also storinig all the 22lr that the dragons have been buying up.

Good call. i didn't think of that.
I'll bet the Ark, the Lindberg baby and Amelia Earhart are stored there too.

[mdi]

UMMM, yeah, thanks for the heads up. This topic has been around the block about 757 times and nope, there is never a consensus. Yep, Mr. Ayoob is an expert and he testifies at many trials (paid?), but I would like to see where a person, defending home and/or family, shot someone with handloads and was prosecuted. I have seen many reports of trials involving a shooting, but have any centered around using handloads? Have "extra deadly, killer, premeditated murdered" loads ever been proven? I guess I'm just tired of newer reloaders bringing this tired old topic up again...:groner:

[popper]

One chunk of lead is more lethal than another? Come on guys. Everybody knows it's where you hit them so make hand shots to prevent lethality. Judge Judy should get to be the judge in all shooting related cases.

In Texas, going through CHL class, reloads / hand loads were brought up by the instructor as a no-no. Not just his opinion, but reflecting the state's position.
Interesting! How does the state have an opinion that is NOT written as statues or precedence? It's also interesting that many cases of bad guys shooting, their guns JAM. Factory ammo? See the guarantee that gold dots are 6 sigma tested, written anywhere?

[Texantothecore]

Juries position on this is apparently that you shoot what is in the gun.

[trucker76]

One chunk of lead is more lethal than another? Come on guys. Everybody knows it's where you hit them so make hand shots to prevent lethality. Judge Judy should get to be the judge in all shooting related cases.

Interesting! How does the state have an opinion that is NOT written as statues or precedence? It's also interesting that many cases of bad guys shooting, their guns JAM. Factory ammo? See the guarantee that gold dots are 6 sigma tested, written anywhere?

Poor weapon maintenance?

[Smoke4320]

doe run was closed because their product was capable of making High power kill'em dead bullets :) :)

[Outpost75]

I always wondered why you were so stuck on those pea shooters.


ROTFLMAO! should have turned the sarcasm font on, guess the question mark was insufficient. We should all carry frozen 3 lb. sausages!

[MSD MIke]

I always found it interesting that it is generally thought that we shouldn't use reloads for self defense because the jury might consider them to deadly when we readily use factory ammo that is advertised to be as deadly and damage causing as possible. All the way up to being zombie killer ammo in some cases. In the case of factory ammo it would seem the case could also be made that the most deadly ammo was sought out.

Mike

[dondiego]

I always found it interesting that it is generally thought that we shouldn't use reloads for self defense because the jury might consider them to deadly when we readily use factory ammo that is advertised to be as deadly and damage causing as possible. All the way up to being zombie killer ammo in some cases. In the case of factory ammo it would seem the case could also be made that the most deadly ammo was sought out.

Mike

That was what I was thinking too. I use reloads so they don't kill you as fast as that mean old cop ammo.

[fredj338]

Didn't realize they took Gold Dots and XTPs off the market. We're talking self defense so that narrows it down to 9mm/40/45 for the vast majority of people. And those bullets are available for them. They're available for revolver cartridges as well. So that first point doesn't hold much water. But I do agree about the second part. Trying to beat factory performance is going to be tough. But for some people it comes down to cost. It's expensive to practice w/ factory SD ammo. So it makes sense to reload using the same bullets and "close enough" performance so you can practice. Now carrying cast loads is a different ballgame all together.
You did read where is said in most instances right? Besides, GD are pretty hard to come by, no HST, no RGS bonded, etc, but hey, if you think you can make a better round using those components, knock yourself out, I know you can't.

[fredj338]

Keep in mind, the coffee wasn't just hot, it caused VERY severe burns that required surgery. Much more to it than someone spilling hot coffee on themselves.

Use the search function, this comes up every couple of years, it has been thoroughly debunked, over and over.

Also note, in most states if you use a firearm for self defense against someone breaking the law you are immune from civil actions, it is certainly that way in NC. And don't for a moment think OJ used the knife in self defense...

No, the stupid cow put hot coffee between her legs & it spilled. What would you expect. The coffee was hot, the cup was not defective, she probably did not require surgery but you get a bigger settlement if you gave doctor bills. You are also wrong, MOST states do NOT have laws exempting the victim from lawsuits in a shooting, only a few do. You get involved in any shooting in most states & injure or kill an innocent, you will be sued. Everything goes in a civil suit. The jury only needs 51% to award the injured party a settlement. IMO, just not worth it. I choose good factory loads when I can.

[Garyshome]

Pistols= Factory ammo....Shotty=Reloads!

[Bullshop Junior]

Unless its their foot!

(Sorry Daniel, couldnt resist. I know you get tired of it. It's only cause we love you.)

I'm reminded of what a light loaded 45 colt with a Low meplate boolit will do every time a take a step. It may not have blown my foot off, and I'm lucky for that. But I still feel it. It did pleanty

[JSnover]

This again? Oh boy.......

Yeah... Again....:roll:

[Pilgrim]

I guess you gotta know the DA where you are likely to wind up in court. It's most likely the DA in your juristiction. That said, our DA is a flaming liberal. According to a judge friend he's a good DA. BUT...I served on a murder trial jury (foreman) for a clear self defense case. The DA didn't have the balls to make a self defense decision (probably because of his liberal buddies and maybe he wants to run for higher office dontcha know) so he took it to a grand jury. No defense lawyers permitted, nor I guess any opposing views from those of the DA or deputy presenting the evidence. And the prosecutors get to choose the evidence they want to use, and...yada yada. Bottom line is the guy kicked in her front door and was shot and killed in her living room some 25' or so from the front door. He was an ex or some such and she got the Ruger .357 for self defense. Good thing, too. FWIW Pilgrim

[Bzcraig]

I'm glad all ya'll get here first........

[dragon813gt]

You did read where is said in most instances right? Besides, GD are pretty hard to come by, no HST, no RGS bonded, etc, but hey, if you think you can make a better round using those components, knock yourself out, I know you can't.

Now go back and read everything I've posted in this thread before you tell me to read what was posted. And what bullets besides JHPs would you use for SD ammo? Do you also realize that you could buy bullets years ago and still have them and load them today? This shortage is not a constant. So by all means tell me to go back and read a previous post and then tell me I can't load ammo that will outperform factory rounds.

[Rick Hodges]

Ayoob writes for a gun rag and his salary is paid by advertisers....how much advertising is purchased by reloaded ammo suppliers and manufacturers vs. Winchester, Remington, Federal, Hornady and other "defense" and "critical defense" ammo makers????......go through the pages of the magazines he writes for and add up the number of inches of advertising....then see how it correlates with the articles inside. There is a reason why I don't buy magazines anymore.

I am sorry but ever since I had to do a similar project and was able to add up the inches of advertising in Motor Trend for the 3 months preceding the announcement of the vaunted "Car or Truck of the Year" award...and was able to predict the winner...for 10 yrs. running. He who pays, wins OR money talks and BS walks.

Paid "experts" in the courtroom? Did you ever wonder how it is that there are always paid experts on both sides...and they always support the side who pays the freight?

Sorry I am a cynic and a skeptic, I have learned to believe none of what I hear and only half of what I see.

[JSnover]

Ayoob has already weighed in on this topic, somewhere on this forum, a couple of years ago. I don't feel like looking it up. This dead horse has been pretty severely beaten already.

[JSnover]

No, the stupid cow put hot coffee between her legs & it spilled. What would you expect. The coffee was hot, the cup was not defective, she probably did not require surgery.

She actually required skin grafts, front-to-back, if you get my drift. McDonalds was begging to be sued, but anything more on this would severely hijack the thread.

[freebullet]

I load one of every type of round i can find when im defending my family from the running doe. I figer nobody can figer what I was thinkin that way. Heck even I didn't know.

[dverna]

I carry factory ammo or reloads with factory bullets.

It may not matter in court but why give them any reason to BS the jury? If I thought cast bullets offered an advantage, I would carry cast bulleted ammo.

At home, I would not be using the pistol anyway. Always go for the Mossberg 500 or AR15. Just stupid to use a pistol when there is a better weapon. Most people would be better off with a long gun for HD as most people are pathetic pistol shots and long guns are so much better at killing what needs killing.

Don Verna

[freebullet]

I prefer a gatling gun for hd duty.

[Love Life]

At home, I would not be using the pistol anyway. Always go for the Mossberg 500 or AR15. Just stupid to use a pistol when there is a better weapon. Most people would be better off with a long gun for HD as most people are pathetic pistol shots and long guns are so much better at killing what needs killing.

Don Verna

Gospel!!

[Piedmont]

At home, I would not be using the pistol anyway. Always go for the Mossberg 500 or AR15. Just stupid to use a pistol when there is a better weapon. Most people would be better off with a long gun for HD as most people are pathetic pistol shots and long guns are so much better at killing what needs killing.

Don Verna

It depends on how large your house is and where you spend your time. If my door(s) are breached all of the sudden I don't have time to go get a shotgun and it is inconvenient to lug one around every day and night from room to room just so I will be ready if something highly unlikely happens. A handgun can be easily worn or tucked in the waistband or pocket and carried from room to room. So, for me, a handgun is more practical. Much more.

[BruceB]

It's well and good to say that the long gun is better for "serious social engagements". Most of us agree with that, I'm sure.

The problem, though, is both self-evident and difficult.

TIME! In most home-defense situations, it is mere SECONDS that we will have to react to the thugs. SECONDS will not allow us the ability to access a long gun unless it is literally right at hand. How many of us keep a loaded-and-ready rifle or shotgun at hand all the time? Also, as a corollary, how many walls will that rifle bullet penetrate when fired in an apartment complex?

Piedmont has it right. The handgun IS easy to keep close at hand, ready to fire, yet inaccessible to others as long as it 's in our direct possession. As I sit here right now, a 9mm auto is clipped to the frame of my wheelchair. Access time? Maybe two seconds, maybe less. My M1 Carbine or AR15 are certainly more "positive" in dealing-out discomfort to intruders, but being across a room or even in another room when the emergency occurs, they may as well be on the Staten Island ferry..... a long way from my Nevada home!

[warf73]

This same exact topic came up on the S&W forum Sunday or Monday, wounder if its the same guy?

[giz189]

Don't forget all of the powder that the guvment is buying up so we can't have any. And ammo. And Twinkies, by the gods man don't forget the Twinkies.

Pretty sure that's where they are also storing the data the NSA is backing up for us.. That is where Jimmy Hoffa is being kept also.

[unknownhavoc]

I had read an article once about a former student of MA, he was a very early student who took actual classes with him. He had said in the classes MA swore by wide nose, soft lead bullets. Did so in several classes.

It wasn't until Remington started sponsoring him that he recanted using lead or reloads, and swore by modern JHP, condemning reloads.

Now I can't find the article, and it might be a hoakey, but money speaks volumes.

[freebullet]

Thread status- Tactical Dumbo style
101195

[Lloyd Smale]

glad i dont live in an area where the liberals would even make this a point. IF they did id surely have a lawyer anyway and ive never seen ANY law on the book that said i cant use handloads for self defense and if theres no law against it how can it be held against me. Heck i know for a fact one of the local sheriffs carrys a glock 26 off duty in his pickup that loaded with cast hps. How do i know? he gets them from me.

[clownbear69]

When it comes to the factory vs reloads, its what works best in your firearm. I rather be judged by 12 than carried out by 6.

Currently for myself its factory because I haven't found a reload I like yet.

[dudel]

I rather be judged by 12 than carried out by 6.

I'd rather be acquitted by 12. You could be judged guilty by 12.

Just saying.

[Love Life]

I carry shurikens at all times.

[Texantothecore]

The arguments concerning factory versus hand loads are without merit and have been shot down many times on this forum as well as others.

According to ER people the bullet track of a 4 dollar ultra turbo Zombie Eliminator round is identical to a cast round, given the same mass and velocity. The damage is done by mass times velocity not any special attributes of the round.

Due to the limits of physics and Saami specs for pistols it is probably nearly impossible to load a pistol round which is substantially different than a standard factory round without destroying the pistol or disabling it.

As is recognized by most here as everyone would choose a rifle or shotgun over a pistol. The mass and velocities are significantly higher for the long guns and results at the ER level show this also.

There are a few things we can do with a pistol to increase its effectiveness such as using hollow points or wadcutters. Two of my close friends are retired policemen and both of them carry .38s loaded with soft wadcutters. The hps or wcs will destroy more tissue whereas a spitzer point will push most tissue to the side. Either of the former types will generally not over penetrate and wound someone behind the perp whereas the sharp pointed bullet may exit at fairly high speed, enough to do significant damage to a bystander.

As far as being a court expert, it carries no weight. Junk science is common in court room proceedings and expert testimony always confirms the side which is paying the bills, so it simply is not an issue.

An additional issue is that juries recognize that you have three seconds to respond to an attack and you shoot what is in the gun.

There are a lot of other points which could be brought up but this is a good review of the basics.

[Love Life]

I wish I could create a long nose, base heavy heavy pistol bullet that would tumble and yaw when it hit soft tissue. I'd take that over a hollow point or WFN any day.

[Pb2au]

I carry shurikens at all times.

I prefer poison tipped nunchakus.

[Texantothecore]

Wasnt there a guy who was recently strung up in DC for having a sabot (for BP rifle) and they deemed it ammunition? I dont trust any lawyers or judges to act in good faith anymore. Granted, if it is a justifiable shooting there *shouldn't* be any issues. By using factory ammo, it is just one less headache to have to deal with should I find myself in front of a Jury. But yeah, dont believe everything you read, even if it is from Massad Ayoob.


I wish I could create a long nose, base heavy heavy pistol bullet that would tumble and yaw when it hit soft tissue. I'd take that over a hollow point or WFN any day.

Quite a few bullets do exactly that in flesh and are found in the perp with their nose towards the shooter. A bullet probably could be designed to do so but it would suffer from lack of penetration and penetration is generally regarded as being the most significant factor in quickly stopping an attack.

[Love Life]

Quite a few bullets do exactly that in flesh and arr found in the perp with their nose towards the shooter. A bullet probably could be designed to do so but it would suffer from lack of penetration and penetration is generally regarded as being the most significant factor in quickly stopping an attack.

Penetration is significant if the bullet hits goodies inside the body regardless of your target.

I don't see why a yawing 45 acp or 40 cal bullet wouldn't have enough energy to make it to the goodies. If anything the nose may break off leaving the heavier base to keep on keeping on.

[bob208]

this massad ayood fella mite be many things but an expert is not one of them. I have tried to read some of his stuff but gave up as a waste of time.

[Texantothecore]

Texas, by the way, does not take any stand on factory versus hand loads. I don't know where that idea came from. Both operate within the same ballistics envelope and it just does not matter.

[Texantothecore]

this massad ayood fella mite be many things but an expert is not one of them. I have tried to read some of his stuff but gave up as a waste of time.

Massad is good in some areas but not good at all in others. Probably good in tactical shooting techniques and equipment reviews but that is about it.

I used to own an advertising firm and his books seem to me more about buying new stuff. But that is just my view.

If you hang around the reloading community enough you will find that Massad's reputation among those who reload and shoot many thousands of rounds per year is not as great as among the general shooting public.

In short, he is no Elmer Keith.

[Love Life]

I usually skip his articles and would rather read the shampoo bottle when on the throne.

[geargnasher]

I usually skip his articles and would rather read the shampoo bottle when on the throne.

I count the number of dimples in the floor tile design, myself.

One great thing about these threads, it really helps me make final decisions on who to add to my ignore list. A couple more are about to meet jcwit.

Gear

[fredj338]

Now go back and read everything I've posted in this thread before you tell me to read what was posted. And what bullets besides JHPs would you use for SD ammo? Do you also realize that you could buy bullets years ago and still have them and load them today? This shortage is not a constant. So by all means tell me to go back and read a previous post and then tell me I can't load ammo that will outperform factory rounds.
In todays ammo market, it is nearly impossible to improve on good factory JHP ammo. You may think you can, but really, what will you gain?? yeah, what I thought. A single 50rd box of factory ammo should last 5-6 years, even if you change out your ammo annually. That is unless you carry 50rds with you daily.
It's all a personal choice, factory or handloads. You will never get convicted of a criminal act by a good cause SD shooting for carrying handloads. You will be sued by the surviving family members or the perp if he survives. Civil suits are 51% cases, you are likely to lose if the other guy gets a good attorney & you don't. Giving the other side even more dirt to throw at you just seems pointless, but to each his own.

[Love Life]

I count the number of dimples in the floor tile design, myself.

One great thing about these threads, it really helps me make final decisions on who to add to my ignore list. A couple more are about to meet jcwit.

Gear

My ignore list is still empty.

These threads are always good though because they open a bunch of eyes. At the end of the day it all comes down to user preference. To be honest, the only reason I carry a firearm is because it is legal. I'd rather carry a pair of knuckle dusters and just avoid situations that may degrade into a shooting or some such. Seriously, I can carry a friggin pistol with 17 rds of ammo, but I can't carry some knuckles, a big knife, or a sap instead?

Off topic, but odd none the less.

[Pb2au]

LL makes a valid point.
The fellow that trained me for my CCW, and now is working with me on practical defensive handgun use flat out told me from the get go, if possible, just avoid a situation that can degrade to gunfire. It follows Occam's razor. As a constant business traveler, I take it to heart as I roam the US.
A pair of brass knuckles, sap, or heck even a bag of rocks can change a situation in a heartbeat.
And though there has been a lot of good natured ribbing in this thread, it does serve a good point to open some eyes and create a pause for consideration.

[Love Life]

My greatest self defense tool (now that I'm older and wiser) is my feet. Somebody pulls a knife? Turn and run like the wind. Somebody wants to escalate a yelling match into fisticuffs? Tuck and run like a yellow bellied coward. Somebody pulls a gun? Hmmm. I may be able to boot scoot and boogy fast enough.

In today's world it's really just not worth an altercation if it can be avoided. I really hate the thought of tucking tail and scooting like a wuss, but what do you do? If I throw the beat down on a person in the walmart parking lot, even in self defense, I'll still get in trouble. Seriously, unless a security camera and a phone camera and a courtroom stenoghrapher and a newspaper journalist all caught the act from start to finish.

People over think the whole self defense, offense, killing, killing power, etc.

Here is my tried and true method to avoid altercations:
I don't talk much
I don't make it a point to walk in dark alleys
I don't go into ghettos
I don't go into barrios
I stay in bright light
I park close to entrances
I always look around me and am aware of my surroundings
I always look at egress options
I go places during daylight hours

Blah, blah, blah....

Man, I'm way off topic now. Back to Ayoob and his gospel. Shoot what you want and deal with it all later.

[cwheel]

I agree with LL 100%. Not the old west, or at this age, time to be getting into bar fights. Courts also realize that a senior citizen will have to resort to deadly force sooner than a 20 year old might. ( might be a good reason for a criminal to avoid us ) Given a choice of what rounds to carry in my CCW, it will always be factory SD rounds, and better yet, same as local law enforcement uses. In these times of ammo shortages, handloads can be easily justified. Always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, using what you have will better than none at all.
Chris

[Pb2au]

And poison tipped nunchakus.
Never leave home without them.

[Texantothecore]

[QUOTE=Love Life;2716444]My greatest self defense tool (now that I'm older and wiser) is my feet. Somebody pulls a knife? Turn and run like the wind. Somebody wants to escalate a yelling match into fisticuffs? Tuck and run like a yellow bellied coward. Somebody pulls a gun? Hmmm. I may be able to boot scoot and boogy fast enough.

In today's world it's really just not worth an altercation if it can be avoided. I really hate the thought of tucking tail and scooting like a wuss, but what do you do? If I throw the beat down on a person in the walmart parking lot, even in self defense, I'll still get in trouble. Seriously, unless a security camera and a phone camera and a courtroom stenoghrapher and a newspaper journalist all caught the act from start to finish.

People over think the whole self defense, offense, killing, killing power, etc.

Here is my tried and true method to avoid altercations:
I don't talk much
I don't make it a point to walk in dark alleys
I don't go into ghettos
I don't go into barrios
I stay in bright light
I park close to entrances
I always look around me and am aware of my su

[762 shooter]

I wouldn't want to add anything an obsessive prosecuting attorney could obsess over. Civil is where you will be cut a new posterior void.

762

[captaint]

I was gonna say, jeez, guys, let's don't do this. Then I noticed we're 5 pages in already. No further comment. Mike

[jonp]

Anyone hear about Doe Run?

[Love Life]

Isn't that where the government is storing all the 22lr is bought so that we can't have some?

[jonp]

Probably. I heard the Illuminati and the Masons are in cahoots with them.

I hope everyone got my point with the Doe Run comment. Every forum i have been on for a number of years has trotted out the "use reloads for self defense and you'll get the chair" foolishness despite there being no cases of reloads being a factor in any self defense rulings. Mr. Ayoob was making a much broader and good point in his advice against using them. Give the prosecuting attorney as few openings as possible because anything can happen in a courtroom.
With all of the excellent self defense rounds out there why bother taking a chance? I reload an with the help of the fine folks on this forum have begun casting my own. I buy all of my self defense ammo preferring Federal low recoil in my pocket guns and gold dots in others.

[btroj]

Actually LL your greatest defense tool lies between your ears! You are smart enough to avoid bad situations and handle them well should they occur.

[btroj]

Isn't that where the government is storing all the 22lr is bought so that we can't have some?

And powder. All the good powder, just not the garbage you can find these days.

[fredj338]

Actually LL your greatest defense tool lies between your ears! You are smart enough to avoid bad situations and handle them well should they occur.
Honestly though, if we all felt that was all we need is vigilance & common sense, then none of us would CCW. We do because there are moments when you are in the wrong place, wrong time & you can't run away or in a few instances, should not run away if you can be effective in saving a life. Some day you may be the first responder & having a gun is better than a knife is better than your bare hands.

[btroj]

True but even then using your head is key. Running blindly is a bad move. When you truly train for bad situations you are training the mind as well as the body. Knowing how to read the situation and having good situational awareness will keep you alive more often than not, armed or not.

An idiot with a gun isn't any better than a smart guy with no gun.

[clownbear69]

I'd rather be acquitted by 12. You could be judged guilty by 12.

Just saying.

True but still beats myself or my family dead

[Love Life]

Honestly though, if we all felt that was all we need is vigilance & common sense, then none of us would CCW. We do because there are moments when you are in the wrong place, wrong time & you can't run away or in a few instances, should not run away if you can be effective in saving a life. Some day you may be the first responder & having a gun is better than a knife is better than your bare hands.

Your point is well taken, but statistically that chance is incredibly small. Nothing stops me from throwing a rock, or shoe, or a flying tackle. I may get smoked, but whatever.

Seriously though, the only reason I carry a gun in social places is because it is the only weapon big brother allows me to legally carry to defend myself and others. How screwed is that?

Btroj also brings up a good point about a mouth breather with a gun. I've seen some serious diptards with CCW who are frothing at the mouth for the moment when they can be the hero. I can think of very few circumstances where the gun would do me better than any of my preferred protection devices, but then the age old adage of better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it rears it's ugly head.

As usual, what I say is definitely not the gospel. It's just what works for me.

[BruceB]

The reason I carry a gun is very simple: it gives me OPTIONS.

The pistol gives me the ability to respond to situations in ways that would not be possible without it.

Lately, I've entered a phase of my life that has caused me to give very serious thought to those possible options, because my own abilities have been badly compromised.

"Flight OR fight" have become virtual impossibilities, making me more-vulnerable than ever before....and possibly a more-attractive/easier "target" for the thugs?

You see, I'm confined to a wheelchair, although I hope to gradually 'wean' myself from it as time goes on. Until that happy day arrives, I have a big personal-security problem.

So.... the hidden pistola has become critical to my peace of mind, as well as to my ability to respond to threats.

Until I lost my leg, my practice routine usually called for firing the gun to slide-lock, whether on single or multiple targets. I see no reason to change that method now, and in fact it may be even more important to ensure the threat is truly immobilized.

So, in discussions like this one, try to remember that there are some of us facing possible threats that are not a problem to most citizens.... and those who must have a mind-set to allow dealing with those threats.

Of course, it's possible that *I* may receive a somewhat more sympathetic hearing from "the authorities" while parked over the bodies.... ya think?

[Ickisrulz]

I carry shurikens at all times.


Little pickles??

[Love Life]

Little pickles??

They go well with sandwiches.

[Love Life]

The reason I carry a gun is very simple: it gives me OPTIONS.

The pistol gives me the ability to respond to situations in ways that would not be possible without it.

Lately, I've entered a phase of my life that has caused me to give very serious thought to those possible options, because my own abilities have been badly compromised.

"Flight OR fight" have become virtual impossibilities, making me more-vulnerable than ever before....and possibly a more-attractive/easier "target" for the thugs?

You see, I'm confined to a wheelchair, although I hope to gradually 'wean' myself from it as time goes on. Until that happy day arrives, I have a big personal-security problem.

So.... the hidden pistola has become critical to my peace of mind, as well as to my ability to respond to threats.

Until I lost my leg, my practice routine usually called for firing the gun to slide-lock, whether on single or multiple targets. I see no reason to change that method now, and in fact it may be even more important to ensure the threat is truly immobilized.

So, in discussions like this one, try to remember that there are some of us facing possible threats that are not a problem to most citizens.... and those who must have a mind-set to allow dealing with those threats.

Of course, it's possible that *I* may receive a somewhat more sympathetic hearing from "the authorities" while parked over the bodies.... ya think?

Very good points, Sir. Everybody's situation is different. I'm very sure my outlook will change as I grow older. However; I always get a chuckle when people discount the "Elderly" as weak and vulnerable. I distinctly remember my buddy getting the straight beat down in a bar in Jacksonville, NC by a senior citizen.

[country gent]

As another disabled individual I dont have an option of running, havent been able to run in several years. I do make it a point to pay attention to whats going on around me as much as possible. I do park as close as is allowed ( my handicapped placard helps alot here.). I will do all I can to avoid an incedent, that being perfered to any physical incounters. Using your head and paying attention is the first most important thing, if you see a group or individual you dont like the looks of avoid them as much as possible. Leave room when stoped in the car to manuver. "bumping the car ahead of or behind you will generally provide a call to police and fixing thier bumper is way cheaper than the court defenses cost.
And LL the tumbling bullet is there its the british 38 200 grn manstopper load, they were notorious for tumbling on impact and are still loaded by remington I believe.

[Love Life]

Thank you for that lead on the tumbling bullet country gent. Did the .455 do the same thing?

[country gent]

Im not sure on the 455. but do to smaller caliber the 38 load was desighned to be barley stable in flight and tumble on impact. This theroy dates back to ww2 I believe.
With my disability I am forced to use a cane. My being to cheap to pay out for a plain cane I made my own. Walnut shaft is 3/4" at tip and tapers up to 1 3/8 at handle, 4 pieces of 3/4 X 3/4 X 34" walnut glued together with grains reversed. Handle is a 2 1/4" offset ball made from walnut. Oil finished looks great. and in a bind makes for a pretty decent hammer, and no one gives it a second glance LOL..

[Lloyd Smale]

If your that conserned about being judged id say leave the gun at home. If your in a shooting your going to be judged on every aspect of it. Justification is going to be harder for you to defend yourself against then the type of ammo your useing. Keep in mind too that factory ammo can backfire on you too. Whats to say the procecutor doesnt bring up the fact that you went out and bought the highest tech ammo you could for that gun. that your running around with the same ammo the police uses?? Bottom line is if your shot was justified your not going to jail for using cast bullets. If it wasnt justified it doesnt matter what kind of weapon or what ammo you used. Like was said in a previous post, nobody here can give one name of a person sitting in jail right now because he used a reload or a cast bullet in a justified shooting. It would be about like arresting a guy for drunk driving because he was on his way to the bar. You did nothing wrong and nothing illegal so what are they going to convict you of. Probably a better chance your going to have to ansower for posting here then what kind of ammo your using. Im sure somehow they will get your internet records and find you post on gun sites and accuse you of being a gun nut. ;)

[dudel]

LL has a valid point. In Ga I could carry a baton. A gun is not always the proper response (dog or drunk come to mind). In Tx, a baton is a serious no-no. Baton, Mace, Taser are non lethal ways to de-escalate a situation. My gun is a very last resort. Tx seems to limit my responses.

[Toymaker]

Osteodoc, like the idiot a$$h01e TV personality that displayed a hi-cap magazine on his TV show where it was illegal to posses one, the sabot issue got sticky fast because a junior idiot a$$h01e prosecuting attorney wanted to make a name. Fortunately the defense attorney was better. The sabot was declared an "ammunition component", not ammunition. The BATF&E regulations showed the rifle to be excluded from the definition "firearm". But that was close because it was a modern in-line.

[theperfessor]

The "don't carry reloads for self defense" theory is one of those urban legends that sounds plausible - sensible and rational - and yet nobody can come up with any actual citations that back this up. Where in heaven's name are all these things happening, and to whom are they happening?

I'm no lawyer, but my training and profession requires me to deal with facts and truth. Until provable facts are presented I will continue to carry what works best in whatever gun I'm carrying.

[Bonz]

It's interesting to see all of the opinions. One thing that I notice is that no one that has actually had the experience of pulling a weapon to defend themselves has posted about the situation. Personally, I'll continue to load my own carry ammo.

[Love Life]

Pulling a weapon or pulled a weapon and killed someone in self defense? Big difference there...

[Bonz]

Pulling a weapon or pulled a weapon and killed someone in self defense? Big difference there...

Absolutely true ! But I would also say that there is a big difference in "imagining" the need to pull a weapon in self defense and actually pulling a weapon in self defense, even without firing it.

[prs]

Prosecution grills the defendant: " You make your own super bullets to have in hopes of killing someone like Mr. Smith." Defendant responds: "No Sir. Just the opposite. I carry ordinary old fashioned lead bullets and hope to never need them. I would never wish to use those modern super-killer copper jacketed hollow pointed store bought projectiles". ;-)


prs

[762 shooter]

^^^^ Way to much talk. My attorney coached me by saying that if the attorney asked if I knew what time it is say.................................... yes or no.

762

[Charley]

I'm no lawyer. However, I have spent enough time in court, as defendant, juror, and witness, to know that you are pretty ignorant if you don't think the opposition will do ANYTHING, and use ANY TACTIC, to win. That includes the prosecution, plaintiffs' attorney, or defendant's attorneys. Giving ANY potential opening is a bad tactic. As a follow up, if worse comes to worse, and you do end up using deadly force to defend yourself or your family, just who do you think PAYS for the attorney's fees? Last I checked, they don't do much work for free. Very easy to say on a forum such as this, "I'd rather be judged by 12, blah, blah, blah...I'd rather be no-billed by a grand jury myself, and avoid going to court in the first place. Most times when you go to court, even when you win, you loose. I carry factory in my defense guns for those reason. Doesn't mean I wouldn't use handloads to defend myself, carry them in "general purpose" firearms when I'm working my property in a rural area. It's a bit more defensible, IMO, carrying for hogs, rabid dogs, etc. Just didn't have time to unload/reload when the mojado tried to rob me when I was doing fencing.

[Bad Water Bill]

When I attended my CCW class this was discussed and ABOOBS name was mentioned.

My instructor said "go do your homework on him".

The last I read ABOOB was an "auxiliary cop in a small town but he has a big mouth and wrights a so so story.

According to my instructor the question of handloads has never been brought up in a court of law YET.

He should know as he is a retired lawyer and served for over 20 years as a friend of the court concerning firearms "IN KALIFOMIA.

[milrifle]

Just curious. It has been said several times that no one has ever been convicted because of the type ammo they were using. Has anyone ever been successfully, or even unsuccessfully, sued because of the type ammo? or is this just speculation, too?

[dondiego]

I have several boxes of Winchester Black Talon in 9 MM. They are factory loads and darn good defensive ammo that works well in my Mod. 92, PF9, and the Astra. I really don't think that it would be a good idea to carry that ammo either.........but it is factory ammo!

[ksfowler166]

I personally don't see the value of loading my own SD loads. In most instances, the better bullets are not available to the reloader anyway & you are not going to improve on the performance in most instances. You will never go to jail for using reloaded ammo. You will be sued in civil court & handloads are not going to help you there.
No you will not, at least not here in Kansas. As others have said if you make a "bad" or questionable shot then yes you open yourself to all the legal ramifications. But if you make a good shot meaning it is black and white that the shooting was justified then legally here in Kansas one can not be investigated, arrested, prosecuted, or sued in civil court.

[jonp]

It's interesting to see all of the opinions. One thing that I notice is that no one that has actually had the experience of pulling a weapon to defend themselves has posted about the situation. Personally, I'll continue to load my own carry ammo.
I have

[Texantothecore]

I have.

An enlightening experience, to say the least. All the ego driven BS falls away and it is just you, the perp, your rifle or pistol and the rounds you built carefully.

[jimr]

I always found it interesting that it is generally thought that we shouldn't use reloads for self defense because the jury might consider them to deadly when we readily use factory ammo that is advertised to be as deadly and damage causing as possible. All the way up to being zombie killer ammo in some cases. In the case of factory ammo it would seem the case could also be made that the most deadly ammo was sought out.

Mike
Exactly my thinking

[Love Life]

Ya'll have what? Pulled a gun on a person or pulled a gun on a person and smoked that person and dealt with the fall out? Lets be a little specific here.

[TXGunNut]

Long ago in a land not far from here I carried handloads in a custom Colt because they were the best ammo and weapon I could find...at the time. Guns and ammo have both improved greatly since then, I carry carefully chosen and tested factory ammo in a (mostly) stock weapon.
MA is a good man, articulate and respected in his field. He has reasons for the opinions and thoughts he expresses, I'll leave it at that. I happen to know the threshold of "expert witness" is probably lower than most folks realize, it generally means you know more about the subject at hand than anyone else in the courtroom which isn't too hard to imagine on this subject.

[Whitespider]

Seriously though, the only reason I carry a gun in social places is because it is the only weapon big brother allows me to legally carry to defend myself and others. How screwed is that?

That sucks...
Here in Iowa we don't have CCW permits, we have a "Permit to Carry Weapons"... that permit allows me to carry any legal-to-own weapon(s), of any sort, openly or concealed (or both), anywhere in the State of Iowa (except a school or Federal Courthouse). No local ordinance can preempt the carrying of firearms, but may preempt certain other things (such as the allowable length of edged weapons). A business owner may post a sign stating "No Firearms Allowed" if they choose, but it ain't a "weapons" offense if I ignore it, it's simple misdemeanor trespassing... and, the misdemeanor charge only applies if I've been asked to leave and refuse‼

As far as what I load my firearms with... well...
For nearly every handgun I have just one load that's been carefully tailored for that firearm, it's been regulated to hit where the sights are looking at whatever ranges I deem purpose-able, and every one is a handloaded cast lead-alloy load...

Heaven forbid I ever need to use any of them for defense/protection from human attack (and odds are overwhelming I never will)... but the last thing I'd be concerned with is how some shyster would portray it in a court of law. If I'm justified in the use of it... I'm justified in the use of it and nothing else matters... it don't get any more simple than that.
*

[jonp]

Ya'll have what? Pulled a gun on a person or pulled a gun on a person and smoked that person and dealt with the fall out? Lets be a little specific here.

Pulled a firearm and Thank God didn't have to pull the trigger. The firearm alone was enough to stop the threatened action.

[Texantothecore]

I was outside my farmhouse with the dog when there was a flash from the driveway, perhaps 100 feet. I also spotted movement in the dark over a distance of 10 feet or so. I went into the house, loaded the rifle, illuminated my preplanned shooting lanes, masked my position, called911 and waited for three or so people to break in the front door. The police arrived 58 minutes later. No shots were fired and the ne'er do wells left at some point.

Things I learned:
I work very quickly and efficiently when under duress and make good decisions.

I am a disciplined shooter. In other words, if it had been some boyscouts looking to get a glass of water, it would have ended well.

In many situations in the dark you will not know whether the perp is armed with a gun.

I am quite pleased with my self defense armament and see no reason to upgrade to a higher tech, plastic fantastic whiz bang solution.

I have complete faith in my reloads.

[dondiego]

58 minutes though.

[Texantothecore]

58 minutes though.

Yup. That was not a typo. I was truly alone. The nearest armed neighbor was two miles away.

[Rick Hodges]

I personally used a handgun to defend myself and another, personally investigated 200-400 shootings as an officer in charge of the case while in the Detective Bureau, and policed perhaps another 1200 or so shootings. I have testified in circuit court as an "expert" in firearms. I have never seen or heard where ammunition type (factory, reloads, HP, etc) was ever an issue in any case over a 31 year career in L.E. We did have one case where we were trying to ID a shooter due to the ammo used being a rare lot of Federal factory 380 auto that used RWS projectiles. We were canvassing gunshops to see if anyone carried that lot of ammo and who might have purchased it.

[Piedmont]

I personally used a handgun to defend myself and another, personally investigated 200-400 shootings as an officer in charge of the case while in the Detective Bureau, and policed perhaps another 1200 or so shootings. I have testified in circuit court as an "expert" in firearms. I have never seen or heard where ammunition type (factory, reloads, HP, etc) was ever an issue in any case over a 31 year career in L.E. We did have one case where we were trying to ID a shooter due to the ammo used being a rare lot of Federal factory 380 auto that used RWS projectiles. We were canvassing gunshops to see if anyone carried that lot of ammo and who might have purchased it.

In your professional position, would you have been made aware if ammo issues were brought up in a civil case in those shootings? It seems to me the danger is in a civil suit.

[Whitespider]

It seems to me the danger is in a civil suit.

I don't pretend to know about every state... but here, if the use of deadly force is justified/legal you cannot be sued in civil court. Basically, if you're right-you're right and that's the end of it... if you're wrong-you're wrong and there ain't no good end.
*
*

[Rick Hodges]

In your professional position, would you have been made aware if ammo issues were brought up in a civil case in those shootings? It seems to me the danger is in a civil suit.

Let me start by saying I have been retired for almost 15 years. My experience is dated. I do keep in touch with others who are still in the same business. I would have known in the cases where I was the officer in charge as a Detective (usually I would have been called in a civil case) but not in the others. Believe it or not most shootings do not result in law suits. If the attorneys can't find someone with deep pockets it is not worth their time and effort. In fact most shootings are not self defense.

Reloaded ammo was not an issue in my shooting, nor in any other case I testified in civil or criminal. (perhaps a dozen civil cases in shooting I was involved in or investigated) I can assure you that an attorney will throw out anything he can in the hopes that it might stick in the minds of a jury including your participation in violent "blood sports" (hunting), being a card carrying member of the "evil gun culture" (NRA membership), owning a "massive arsenal" (more than 3 guns and 6 boxes of ammo) to name a few. NRA membership has come up for me on the stand. However; do you actually think that just because an attorney tries those tactics we should forgo hunting, or membership in the NRA, or using reloaded ammo? I think not! The issue is not the type of ammunition but the justification and circumstances surrounding the shooting.

I will repeat: the only place I have heard where reloaded ammo "may" be an issue is in certain magazines who depend heavily on the "Tactical self defense" ammo advertising and on internet forums. I really want someone to point out a criminal or civil case where the outcome hinged on the use of reloaded ammo as a determining factor.

[ksfowler166]

I don't pretend to know about every state... but here, if the use of deadly force is justified/legal you cannot be sued in civil court. Basically, if you're right-you're right and that's the end of it... if you're wrong-you're wrong and there ain't no good end.
Exactly the same here in Kansas, if you right no need to fear a civil suit. If your wrong well you have bigger things to worry about than a civil suit.

[22 rifle]

i see this said a lot but there was a guy who went to prison after his girlfriend killed herself with a 38 revolver that belonged to him.he had loaded some lower powered rounds for her before for home protection because she was recoil sensitive.the court refused to use the remaining reloads for testing because it would be "destroying evidence".after testing with factory ammo they claimed he was several feet behind her and shot her with the gun himself.the guy ended up getting a long prison sentence for a murder rap.

[Blood Trail]

Y'all move to Texas! U don't have to worry about it.

[starmac]

I keep trying to remember what kind of ammo Zimmerman used. I know it was reported in the news at least a hundred times, christ even the fricken president weighed in on the case, and I just can't remember what he used.

[Mik]

Rick is right on.

The attorney in court trying to prove you guilty of murder will use anything to make you look like a bad man. If you've taken formal weapons and self defense training, the attorney will try to make it look like you could have avoided the shoot but couldn't resist the opportunity to put your training to use.

If you have several guns, the attorney will paint you as a person who has been waiting all of his life for a chance to use one of them.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn to protect yourself or enjoy your guns. But it may come up. To a jury, perception is reality.

[M-Tecs]

Second thread running on this issue here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?238190-Opinions-on-carrying-reloads-for-personal-defense&highlight=Ayoob

I carry what I want and I don't worry about the Ayoob BS myth.

[Texantothecore]

i see this said a lot but there was a guy who went to prison after his girlfriend killed herself with a 38 revolver that belonged to him.he had loaded some lower powered rounds for her before for home protection because she was recoil sensitive.the court refused to use the remaining reloads for testing because it would be "destroying evidence".after testing with factory ammo they claimed he was several feet behind her and shot her with the gun himself.the guy ended up getting a long prison sentence for a murder rap.

It was clear to me that the man shot his wife. In order for the wound to have no powder burn or powder residue she would had to hold the pistol about 2 feet from her head. The guy was guilty and is now serving time.

[Recluse]

No, the stupid cow put hot coffee between her legs & it spilled. What would you expect. The coffee was hot, the cup was not defective, she probably did not require surgery but you get a bigger settlement if you gave doctor bills.

Actually, she required skin grafts--multiple skin grafts.

I was pretty dubious over the "spill hot coffee on yourself and sue for millions" story and like most, outraged. But then I did a little actual research on it. The coffee was a good twenty to twenty-five percent hotter than restaurant industry standards recommended and McDonalds had already settled several prior cases in which patrons had spilled (or had it spilled on them by a clumsy cashier) the scalding coffee on themselves.

Another thing to note is that the woman did not "walk away" with millions of dollars. The settlement was actually lowered to the $550,000 range, much of which went to additional medical bills and expenses. And both a jury and a judge agreed that she bore some liability for placing the cup of coffee between her legs, but it was also noted that "who among us has never done the same thing?"


You are also wrong, MOST states do NOT have laws exempting the victim from lawsuits in a shooting, only a few do. You get involved in any shooting in most states & injure or kill an innocent, you will be sued. Everything goes in a civil suit. The jury only needs 51% to award the injured party a settlement. IMO, just not worth it. I choose good factory loads when I can.

In America, which is to say, not California or New York, more states--not less--are enacting Castle Doctrine laws and statutes that immunize a righteous shooter from being prosecuted/sued civilly by the victim.

But, there is a big difference, a HUGE difference between accidentally shooting an innocent person/bystander versus a thug who was robbing/raping you. You are liable for damage caused to, for lack of a better term, "non-combatants."

And again, not sure how it is in California but in most states, civil cases are decided by an eight to four ratio/margin--not "51%," which is mathematically impossible in most juries.

Me personally, I could care less what Ayoob or any other "self-defense" expert thinks (or writes) who's never been shot at or had to shoot back at someone, be it in the civilian world, law enforcement world or military world. I'm going to carry the firearm I have most confidence in for the situation I may be faced with, and it will be loaded with ammunition appropriate for such a situation.

:coffee:

[jmort]

^ pretty much sums it up. Ayboob's main case for his recommendation involved a guy killing his girlfriend and claiming she committed suicide. Judge excluded some of his expert witness ballistic evidence propaganda. I think the judge was wrong, but that was the judge's call. No one ever, in the history of the United States, has been convicted of a crime involving self defense and the use of reloads.

[Mod42]

I am sorry, this is just a BS topic that is kept alive by "experts" that can make money by writing about it!

If you are involved in a self defense shooting the DA is going to look at what happened and decide if it meets that state's rules for self defense. The Da will not consider what some "expert" has written in a book or magazine, the DA will not care what type of ammo you were carrying, his whole decision will be based on the states laws for self defence! If he says it was self defence you are out of the legal system, in most states. There are still a few that allow civil cases when the shooting was justified.
If the shooting is not ruled justified.......you are in a world of hurt, and it is probably your own fault!

If more people would spend time thinking about things like being aware of what is going on around them, and maybe crossing the street to stay out of trouble, they would be a lot better off than worrying about some fictional theory about what a jury might think about my bullets!!

Remember, if it gets to the jury you have most likely screwed up, and the bullets you used just won't matter!!

[dudel]

I am sorry, this is just a BS topic that is kept alive by "experts" that can make money by writing about it!

If you are involved in a self defense shooting the DA is going to look at what happened and decide if it meets that state's rules for self defense. The Da will not consider what some "expert" has written in a book or magazine, the DA will not care what type of ammo you were carrying, his whole decision will be based on the states laws for self defence! If he says it was self defence you are out of the legal system, in most states.

What world do you live in? I want to move there!

To think that DAs are not politically motivated to push cases regardless of the law flys in face of reality.

[JSnover]

Can we put all these reloads-for-defense threads in a special section? Or maybe a banner on the main page?

[Mod42]

What world do you live in? I want to move there!

To think that DAs are not politically motivated to push cases regardless of the law flys in face of reality.

All DA's are politically motivated, the motivation is the number of cases in the win column so that they can tell you how tough they are when it's time to be reelected! The second motivation is to not break the budget by trying a marginal case....Why do you think most cases are plea bargained?
I have no fear that a DA will try to charge me illegally just because it might look good......George Zimmerman case's are extremely rare, and I wouldn't put myself in a George Zimmerman situation!
The world I live in is the real world......Not the fantasy land that this thread comes out of!

[jonp]

Yup. That was not a typo. I was truly alone. The nearest armed neighbor was two miles away.

Lucky they were that close. I lived in my hunting camp for a couple of really great years. It would take the cops a couple of hours to show up if they even knew something was going on because there was no cell service there. Or power...or running water...or plumbing but there were loons on the pond and fish in it, chicadee's waking me up every morning and moose looking in my window at me lieing in bed.

[jonp]

Can we put all these reloads-for-defense threads in a special section? Or maybe a banner on the main page?

Banner reading "BULL LIES HERE ENTER AT OWN PERIL"?

[Blood Trail]

I held a meth head at gun point on my deer lease in Texas. Caught him in my truck. Told the police that I jumped him. Long story, but I do remember one of the cops ask me why didn't I just shoot him.