Sizing 38-55 to 30-30 Experiance

[barrabruce]

I've went out and bought some long 38-55 brass to size down to 30-30 so I can use them in my long necked chamber. Mostly for paper patching.

I have been after these for years and finally after a long search have found some.
(sometimes they get listed but mostly never in stock and some such)

I have a 30-30 full length sizer press type and a whacke'em/vise type.

What would be the best way to attack this this??? as I don't want to loose to many of my precious cases when they come.

Iv'e been thinking this starline American brass hopefully should work.

Thinking the neck and shoulder will be sized.
lube and size a tad..then wipe lube off and size a tad more???
I hope they aren't too soft and crumble and kink easy.

Any way anyone else done this????
Any pointers be grateful

I would need to fire form them after and trim to exact length after but a close a fit as I can would be what I am after.
Bruce

[Terrence Clarke]

I have done this by using RCBS full length sizer die and lightly lubed starline cases, just push them in and out and trim to length,failure rate is about 10%,hope this helps

[barrabruce]

Thanks I have a rsbs sizer too.
Maybe I'm over thinking this a bit.
Thanks
Bruce

[Terrence Clarke]

I buy my starline brass from Cleavers at Margate

[barrabruce]

Tried Cleavers they had them listed but not available.
Plus they didn't seem interested.
A few fellows have had some issues with them ..but that's another story.

[mikeym1a]

Is annealing advisable? I recently reformed some 32ga brass shotshell, and two of them split in the sizing down. I cursed myself, and annealed the rest, and lost no more cases. Also, are you going to need to inside ream the case necks after sizing? I've never done this, but, this is what I have read. Good luck to you. Hope my contributions helps. mikey

[mikeym1a]

I don't know their availablity, but, custombrassandbullets has hard to find brass, and the ones I got from them were reasonable, compared to other I looked at. mikey

[Wayne Smith]

I don't know the relative lengths, but if the longer brass will extend beyond the end of the die use the press mounted die.

[reed1911]

You may also need to cut the rim down. On my T/C's I cannot use stock .38-55 as the rim is larger and will not fit the chamber. You'll need to check your chambers to verify it will fit first. From there, yes annealing is highly recommended, I would neck it to 35 first then to .30. Hornady makes a universal die for both which may be handy for you.

[Skunk1]

I have some 38-55 hidden around here somewhere. Now I'll have to buy a 30-30. Can't believe I don't have one yet.

[barrabruce]

Haven't a 35 cal die but thinking I may get hold of a bolt ; chuck it in a lathe and drill it out to 350-360 Thou and put a gentle taper to 430- or what ever.
Use that as a intermediate form die.
The shoulder and neck would be properly formed in the 30-30 full length sizer.

The last time I tried sizing 303 brass down to 303-25 I tried annealing a couple first and the shoulders just concertinaed....crumbled.



The full length sizer has the room to accommodate the extra length of the neck before I have unscrew the threaded portion holding the pin and sizer button.

Importing brass from overseas maybe a bit of a hassle with customs...... but Iv'e never looked into it.
Bullet moulds are just good thou.

Anyway I can't see how the sides are supported when full length sizing till it gets down towards the nitty griity bit at the end.

Unless I got it wrong and should make a rough 35-30 die to use.

Seems good to me at this stage unless I overlooked something obvious.....as usual.
Be interesting to see if I have to trim the rims or neck turn or ream the necks afterwards.

Ohhh boy this can turn into a headache quick or go just like it was made for it.

:lol:
Thanks for all the input
Man I gott'a hand it to this site.
A man can waste more time and money than ever imagined on doing this cheap cast bullet lark buying things I never knew I needed or dreamed one needed.
I should'a stuck to deciding if the green and yellow packet shoots better the other colours.
:) :)
And loving it.
Barra

[Catshooter]

Barra,

If it were me and I was going to make an intermediate die (35 or so caliber) I would drill and then ream. Drilling leaves a very rough surface.


Cat

[catskinner]

I've necked down 38-55 to 30-30 and 45-70 to 33 Winchester. One thing I've found the case mouth should be round before starting. Any little nick or dent in the case mouth will end up as a wrinkled neck or shoulder. Never annealed case mouth before sizing and had no problems. Also check the neck diameter of the chamber and compare it to the neck diameter of a loaded round to insure there is at least .001 inch clearance.

[garandsrus]

I would blow out some 30-30 cases to 38-55/375 Win and practice resizing back down on those. That way it doesn't matter if you lose a couple.

[barrabruce]

I would blow out some 30-30 cases to 38-55/375 Win and practice resizing back down on those. That way it doesn't matter if you lose a couple.

I would but haven't one to shoot it in nor seen a 38-55 at the range for a lonnnggg time.

45/70's abound thou.

Yeah thanks cat skinner I figured that out before.
I would love to just do no sizing at all and seat and shoot but I doubt if that will ever happen unless I get a gun re barrelled and get an exact reamer and a matching mould to boot.

Hoping I can breach seat or get a bullet gascheck shank in the case mouth after forming to fireform the cases and see what I have afterwards.
But I gott'a get this first step done first.
It may take a week to get the brass and a bit longer to get things sorted out to even start resizing.

[Mk42gunner]

You can take the bullet seating stem out of the seating die and use it for an intermediate die. they are usually a bit larger than the sizing die, I have done this when forming 25-20 Winchester from 32-20 it helps.

The problem with forming 30-30 from 38-55 is there aren't a lot of calibers in between that are short enough to use as intermediate steps. I don't suppose you have a .358 Winchester or .32 Special die to use as an intermediate laying around do you? Maybe an unloved 8x57 die?

After necking down, I would do a light trim just to square the case mouth.

Good luck,

Robert

[country gent]

Use a good case lube, Lanolin or imperial sizing die wax would be good here as your going to generate alot of force sizing down. An intermediate die or 2 would possibly be a good thing also 38 cal to 35. 35 cal to 32 and final form 32 to 30. I would try annealing a couple first and see how it goes. Also watch neck wall thickness as going down that much will thicken it some, Be sure to have .001-.002 clearence on round to open and release the bullet. Neck ream or turn if necessary. Trim mouths square last step. Working brass this much is going to be tricky at some point. Getting the shoulder right and necks perfect. Neck wall thickness X2 + bullet dia gives a good idea of loaded round diameter. ( .011 X 2 = .022 + .308 = .330 loaded round dia) what is the dimension of your chambers neck?

[Pepe Ray]

I've never done this but it seems to me that your going to increase neck wall thickness to such a degree that you may need to reduce before you get to your goal. Be on watch for this.
Pepe Ray

[barrabruce]

. Getting the shoulder right and necks perfect. Neck wall thickness X2 + bullet dia gives a good idea of loaded round diameter. ( .011 X 2 = .022 + .308 = .330 loaded round dia) what is the dimension of your chambers neck?

Well used brass necks mic at pretty much 8.48mm...0.3385".
The pound slug I made of the chamber pretty well confirms that.
The neck has a slight taper my a bees willy on mine.

No intermediate dies available at this time.

I'll wait and see what happens.
Thanks
Bruce

[barrabruce]

101753
Front cases left one shows maybe the slight extra length of case after chambering in rifle.
2nd left case ding that ends up as sharp ding/fold
2 right duds that just folded neck from dings at or just below case mouth.


Got the brass today.

Who ever said to be carefull about dings and things were right.
Sad photo but I tried some in the 30-30 resizer.

After making the necks round again and using the lee inside outside deburr tool I wiped some dry silicone spray on them and let fly with one just to see if it would work.

Prefecto first round. Using small steps.

Have problems with the dings in the neck and especially the shoulder area from transport.
Squished out of round can be staighted with a 3/8 drill shank twisted in the neck of the 38-55 cases.

The problem is those sharp little dings from the rims banging on them.
I found that the drill shank works o.k. for the start on the case if you can flare it out with some tapered implement.

If not he start can get creased and then it continues unless you can get past it.
A ding around the shoulder area forms a crease that probably will make a hole when fire formed.

I lost 3 out of 25 cases and might loose another one or two because of this.

Still pleased.
Cases preformed in the seating die before the crimp sets in seem to help iron out the dings and get a better start then finished off with the full length sizer.
I took the decapper neck expander out of mine.

Well they are sized small enough.

Now I have to ask a question or two.

I should anneal the necks. Thinking seating spent primer oil dip then into lead melt.

I can use an expander button 0.308" and trim to length.

But if I I just chamber the unmolested case the last longer bit bit crimps down to 0.298".

Will the brass shorten when fireformed in my sloppy chamber dimensions from the length trim them too???

Or would I be better off to do one of these???

I was thinking just to either breach seat a Paper patch 90 gn tapered cone back to front so as the compressed case mouth seats the revesed bullet in the throat. Hopefully aligning the case straight for a good fill out when fired.
Tapping the case out then trimming to length.

Or just use some load of bullseye and some grits or some such to fire form then trim.

I'm after max length cases.

Never had a gun that I've actually had to trim brass on except maybe to get a square mouth.

Thanks for being so help full
Bruce.

I don't think the thickness of the brass will be an issue but I'll see after I have formed them.

[Mk42gunner]

Bruce,

Glad to see the brass got to you, and that you are having a bit of success at necking them down.

The dip into oil then lead is a time honored annealing method; and the one I will try next time I have to anneal, since the propane torch method has not worked well for me.

Have you done a chamber cast or pound slug of the throat to see what the actual dimensions are of your neck throat and ball seat?

The way you describe the case mouth crimping down to 0.298" sounds to me like it is running hard into the ball seat/ origin of rifling, and that you will end up with chamber filling brass.

For fire forming, I have always had better luck when I used a long projectile jammed into the lands; the fast-burning powder and cornmeal or grits hasn't worked to completely fill out the cases. I have not tried a breech seated boolit though. Keep in mind, if you have the boolit in the case neck, you need a bit of clearance for the neck to expand and the 0.298" at the end of the chamber concerns me.

I would expect the cases to shorten as they expand, the question is how much? I think I would trim the cases to a length that doesn't crimp when chambered then load for fire forming, then some more measuring and trim if needed.

Robert

[barrabruce]

101852

Well I tinkered today and gas annealed some cases.
Fired off with some bulleye and Dacron wad plus a hard wad of toilet paper.
Results show that the neck and shoulder formed properly.
I then trimmed the cases till there is a slight taper on the end of the case...but the case mouth is not pinched.
I did this by trimming then putting back in chamber to make sure. And trimming again
All ten came out by figuring =/- a thou or 2

Wow the pound slug must be right ..although the shoulder got squished in a bit from the hammering I think.

There is a slight bulging at the shoulder where the annealing stopped but with a proper load it should straighten the taper out to fit my chamber properly.

Case shows a loaded paper patched bullet to correct length.

The cases aren't as thick as I thought they would come out and may require a little sizing for bullet fit.

I'll shoot these off with a pretty full load paying attention to details and see how they come out.

And final trim to length

Not the difference in length from a normal case.
Paper patching don't like this much gap at all.

Hopefully they will all shoot into one hole.
If not I can't whinge about the case length now anyway. :) :)
Hope I done well enough

Bruce

If nothing else I've learnt is that my annealing technique extends back farther than I ever figured.

[goofyoldfart]

Good luck to you Barra. I believe that you are on the right track. you go, Bro. God Bless to you and yours.

Goofy aka Godfrey :))

[barrabruce]

Just a round up of things.

Cases formed
Flame annealed
Fire formed with wads and things over a bit of bulleye
Then trimmed and loaded with a nice medium charge to final forming.
I lost 10 thou off the case length in my sloppy chamber.
I think they will be still usable.
I got some very fine paper rings of around 5 thou out of the cases but I'll have to wrap and load some different size stuff for this brass.

The other 10 cases I decided to dip anneal in molten lead.
Leave them long as formed.
Place in gun so the case ends would taper and form to rifles throat .
A used some short 90 grain swc's breach seated so the case mouth pushed the last bit in.
They would extract and weren't seated in the case at all just being pushed by the case ends.
These formed nicely and concentric from what I can tell and blew out nice under a medium charge of medium burning powder.

I did check start to final length but trimmed them back to max length.
There is a bit of squeeze on the case mouth left but I think it will come out next firing.

I think the second method is the way to go for me anyway.

Hopefully someone after wading through all my dribble gets some benefit for it.

I can call this a success story.

I thought I'd have thicker case necks but this brass in my chamber mic's at 0.313.

I plan on seeing how fat a bullet I can get this rifle to shoot now.

The loaded bullets sized to the throat and seated look like real everyday ones now!!!!

Barra