Burn Rate Of Homemade BP Too Fast?

[J-P]

Howdy Folks,

Long time follower, first time posting. Mostly because I can't join at work and never take the time to play on the internet at home. Now something important enough has come up that I need to come out of the background and ask a question.

To the Point.

information may become proprietary recipe. Hope everyone that wanted it, got it.

[Texantothecore]

You may want to corn it with a press.

What you have done is to recreate wet grinding, a process that was developed after BP had been in use for a while. It apparently was far more efficient than dry grinding and you may be seeing the result of that method: Good powder.

Be careful, but it sounds like you have a method which produces terrific powder. You may want to pass the batch by some of our experts to see if it is ok.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

how does it compare to 4fg , a ruger old army manual says you can't put enough black in the cylinder to go over pressure not even 4fg a 44mag case is smaller than the ROA when i run the caliper down it I get 1.385 x.454 while a mag case is 1.088 x.430 inside sure your getting the hole ball into the ROA cylinder but if you use a boolit instead of a ball it will cut even more into your case volume

but it would have to be really really fast powder to get into the 40k psi range

so compare to 4fg if it isn't faster your good

you can always reduce your loads and work up using cream of wheat or grits to fill the rest of the case

[Nobade]

Real BP is supposed to do that. All those subs will burn slowly unless heavily compressed and confined. No worries about your powder being too fast, that's everybody's goal! Try flashing some on a sheet of notebook paper. If it's working well it won't burn holes in the paper and will disappear with a "poof".

I would lay off using marbles in a ball mill though....

-Nobade

[johnson1942]

as a young man i learned from the movies about black powder, wrong, any ways thirty years ago i was asked to dipose of a 1/2 can by a neighbor. that was before i started my interest in muzzleloaders. i layed it out on the ground in about a 3 foot line. threw a lighted match on it and of course expected to see if fizz as if a fuse like in the movies. well you all know what happened. it all went off instantly, very fast, it buned my bare shoulder and one side of my face. like a bad sunburn. then i knew what i should have known, that the movies are ---------. also i was standing up, not bent over and it was a valueable lesson. blackpowder is different that all other powders. other powders can bump up bullets, but their is no doubt about blackpowder, it bumps up bullets like nothing else.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I have been thinking , have you ever seen the flash of a flinter , it's fast . faster than percussion when properly tuned , about 1/8 of a tea spoon with a spark from a flint and steel and wooof

the reason subs are so easy to get is that they are propellent not explosive and thus burn like it

when we were stupid kids a freind's step dad reloaded 12ga and had a keg of red dot in the basement , well he wouldn't miss just a little bit so we made our own fireworks , with card board tubes and cannon fuse and duct tape , well all we succeeded in doing was to make bottle rockets without the stick and no pop at the end , now i think back and laugh , we probably burned up a cups worth of powder in about 2-3 attempts to make a fire cracker with destructive force all we got was card board tubes that frittered and danced around like a busted high pressure air hose. if you have ever seen one come loose at 130 psi you will know what I am talking about

the dumb things we lived to tell about

[gmsharps]

You guys ever try a powder tester. It's looks like a percussion derringer but has a flap in front of the barrel that when the main powder charge is ignited the flap moves and there are a number of notches and numbers associated with them giving you a number and that can be compared with other powders as to their potentency. I had picked one up in Italy in the late 70's but I think they were being sold by Dixie gunworks for quite some time.

gmsharps

[Fly]

Replace marbles with lead balls.Your playing with DANGER if you don't.

Fly

[Texantothecore]

Dixie gun works sells powder testers for 185.00.

[J-P]

Thanks for the responses.

I will definitely not use marbles in the future. Maybe even find a better tumbler container, because the "stock" one has a leaky o-ring. We all know what leaky o-rings can lead to. I don't want to have another point of lead exposure, so I think using stainless ball bearings is best? Especially since the milled product is very dusty until the last step.
The powder tester sounds neat, but I don't have that kind of budget for this project. My hunting is all close range and I only use 75 grn loads with the substitutes. So, maybe I'll try 50 grn of my powder with a PRB. should be light and easy to push. I'll check penetration, somehow, and then compare that to my old loads with triple 7. If I get good performance and the fouling is reasonable, then this will be my new powder. What I thought would be a small batch, ended up producing 1/4 of a jar of powder and that is as much as I usually shoot in a year. Maybe more after this.

Anyhow, thanks again. If this turns out well, I try and post some pictures of the process, product, ballistics and fouling.

[GARD72977]

Good post on the powder. I have been wanting to try it for some time. I can see one thing you are doing incredible wrong. You don't shoot enough BP !!!! I bought 25lbs and I don't know if it will last till 2015.

[J-P]

25 lbs is what I'd like to shoot. We're getting ready to move into our new house soon. In fact, if I hadn't been out today with the guys pouring my footers, I'd have tried the powder. The new place is out of town and I know I'll be building one them boolit traps and shooting off my front porch once things calm down. Right now I just practice for hunting or plink with my 1858 rem. revolver. To be completely honest though, I got bored with putting holes in paper a long time ago. That's why I love BP shooting so much. It's more involved. Looks like I've wandered into friendly territory here and I'm looking forward to checking out the other topics on these forums.
Maybe tomorrow I'll have time to try it and reply with some results. If y'all can translate Appalachian engineering, that is. I don't own a chronograph so results will be something like.... Kicks like mule/kitten. Penetrated (name finger) deep into a stump. You know, like science with Larry the Cable guy.

[Texantothecore]

One of the changes you want to make is the realization that you have powder to shoot whenever you want and however much you want to shoot. It took me a while to get to that point and it is great.

[Nobade]

Don't be using stainless steel bearings either. The idea is NON - SPARKING. A spark inside a ball mill makes it become a claymore mine. You want to avoid this. If not lead, then brass or bronze balls.

Oh, your powder will work fine in the '58 Remington too. That will help you use up a lot of it in a short time.

-Nobade

[Boz330]

You may want to read up on corning if you are going to use it in the Remmy. The screened powder isn't very dense and the energy comes from the weight not the volume. In a ML rifle it isn't much of a problem, just add more. I think you will find that in the revolver that powder will be akin to mouse fart loads.

Bob

[Fly]

Noblade SS is non sparking.The problem with SS balls is the cost.What I did was buy SS thin wall
tubeing & cut in 1" sec.Then I filled with casting lead.I stacked the lead with a ole lathe dead
center at each end.

That tighten it up in the tube & then peaned the tube ends up.It keep the lead from wearing
out.Because over time lead will wear away.
Fly

[yeahbub]

I have a few questions. . . .

1. From where does one get brass or bronze rounds for ball mill use?

2. Would a vibratory tumbler work as well as a rotary tumbler?

3. For safety's sake, when milling the components one at a time, does one mill the individual ingredients while damp? There can't be much hazard with charcoal or sulfur, but saltpeter might be a concern.

4. What is the pressure range needed when corning the power in a press? I have a 4-ton bottle jack, but wondered if this will be enough.

5. Has anyone tried to reproduce the chocolate powders of the late 19th century? (80% saltpeter, 20% partially charred rye straw) I had read that it is colloidal/extrudable without sulfur and would allow a sort-of progressive burning quality as well as a lower ash content. Extruding tiny tubes would require extra equipment, but, hey, all in the name of experimentation, right? I haven't been able to find much info on it, though. Maybe it's a lost technology.

[J-P]

Okay here's a picture of the powder basically as it looks just by pressing it through a screen.
101211

Bob hit the nail on the head. Mouse Farts.

The powder must have no density whatsoever. I can easily crush the granules back to powder with just a little pressure. That will never work. So looks like I'm going to be learning the corning process.

Good news is that the mix is very good, just not finished right.

I started my test shots with 50 grains under a PRB in my .50. It just dented a piece of seasoned oak. Next I tried 75 grains with another PRB and got the 1.5" or so you can see in the picture. THen I went "all-out" with 90 grains and a leftover powerbelt I found in my car. It went in about and inch and barely deformed.
101212

I'm not entirely disappointed since this was a first try. I suppose I could kill something with a 150 grain load. :) Need to read up on corning an get these grains harder and heavier.

Last thing, my rock tumbler did a good job with less than 20 marbles. I don't mind buying 20 SS balls the same size. I can't think of a source for brass balls that size. I could cast zinc in my .490 ball mold that likely won't get used again in a long time. doesn't really matter at the moment since i can re-wet the powder I have and try and rework it again.

Once again, thanks for all the advise.

J-P

[Boz330]

JP did you use a volume measure or weigh the charges? You will find that if you weigh the charges your results will be much better, BUT the actual volume will be about double the markings on the standard volume measure.
The BP making thread will give you what you need to know, although a long read. You can skip over a lot of the posts and they will be evident. I press my pucks in a vise so your 4 ton press should work just fine.
Use that 490 mold to cast up balls for milling, 20 anything isn't going to get the job done, you need way more than that.
Where in Southern OH are you from? I'm an old Cincy guy myself although I've been gone for more than 30 years. Still shoot matches out east of Cincy.

Bob

[Texantothecore]

I have a few questions. . . .

1. From where does one get brass or bronze rounds for ball mill use?

2. Would a vibratory tumbler work as well as a rotary tumbler?

3. For safety's sake, when milling the components one at a time, does one mill the individual ingredients while damp? There can't be much hazard with charcoal or sulfur, but saltpeter might be a concern.

4. What is the pressure range needed when corning the power in a press? I have a 4-ton bottle jack, but wondered if this will be enough.

5. Has anyone tried to reproduce the chocolate powders of the late 19th century? (80% saltpeter, 20% partially charred rye straw) I had read that it is colloidal/extrudable without sulfur and would allow a sort-of progressive burning quality as well as a lower ash content. Extruding tiny tubes would require extra equipment, but, hey, all in the name of experimentation, right? I haven't been able to find much info on it, though. Maybe it's a lost technology.

The saltpeter is not explosive and it has no flashpoint so it will not catch on fire.

Powdered charcoal is unlikely to explode but can under certain conditions which you are not likely to encounter. Charcoal is the explosive component of black powder.

Sulfur is not explosive but will burn at 511 F. The resulting heat from the burning of the sulfur separates the three oxygen molecules from the potassium nitrate (KNO3) at 730 F and those oxygen molecules are used in the rapid oxidation of the charcoal which is the explosion that we use to power our guns.

Bronze tubes and rods are available from Mcmaster-Carr but they are quite expensive and it is much cheaper to pour junk lead into 1 inch long copper tubing. Or use lead roundballs which you can buy or pour yourself.

Vibratory tumblers will not work. Rotary tumblers are the main tool we use.

Ah, the French chocolate. One of the rewards of making your own bp is that you can experiment with old techniques and processes to see how they can be made to be useful.

So, get a ball mill, read the stickie on making your own bp and look this up: "diy bp gurus".

The last thread is very focused on the production and engineering issues involved in making bp.

[John Taylor]

I read someplace that BP burn rate is 200 feet per secant ( probably blasting powder), that is a lot faster than what the movies show. My first and only attempt was a bit slower and set the hills on fire out of my canon.

[OverMax]

This following procedure is what's called the corn'ing of powder.
Corn'ed powder is primarily used for pistol and musket use. Instead of the simple pressing of your pre-moistened meal powder thru a screen sized for rifle use and left to dry. To puck or disk. The freshly made meal powder needs to be moistened in a similar way and compacted in a mold with hydraulic pressure into tightly compacted pucks or disks. Many homemade B/P makers use plastic plumbing pipe slices for their compressed powder molds. Once the powder is pressed tight and level in its plastic ring. It's then left to dry completely hard. Then those pucks or disks are later broken into smaller pieces with a club or wooden mallet and screened to size. Here's how its screened: Two different size wood framed screens stacked on top each other but separate from each other work best. And the necessity of having a catch try underneath for the loose powder that falls all the way thru both screens above is a requirement. First screen catches the oversize pieces of compressed powder. Those oversize pieces need to be re-broken into smaller pieces so too pass thru that first screen. Second smaller size screen holds your preferred powder size. Pieces of powder that pass thru the second screen down onto the catch tray below are to small and are usually re-moistened and again compressed into pucks or disks again left to dry for a later use.

[J-P]

Sorry it took so long to update this.

To answer Bob's question first. I was doing a volume measure of the powder when shooting. I guess I could have matched the weight of my powder to another product to see how it compares, but my mind just defaulted to comparing performance by volume. Your point has been taken.

101781

This is what i put together from stuff I had in the garage. It's a piece of aluminum tubing and I cast zinc plugs in it. Once the zinc bit had cooled and shrank a bit, it slid out nicely. I sanded the inner faces smooth on a belt sander and went to town compressing. I did some math and made marks on how far I had to go to get the 1.7 gram/cc density.

The finished pucks were allowed to dry and the next day I tried corning them. It started off okay, but I found that the grains of powder were still somewhat fragile and could be ground back to powder with my finger. Not as easy as the screened-only stuff, but way weaker than Commercial stuff. Only did one test shot with 60gr (by volume) and a PRB. Shot better, as expected, but still seemed week for a 60gr load.



One other thought occured to me in doing this though. Is that compressed puck the same thing as those premeasured Pellets? could I make a .49 cal mold and press cored pellets of this powder? Or is there something else to those BP sub Pellets? Just a thought. It would save a lot of time in corning.

[Texantothecore]

Don't throw in the towel. You have had early success and because you are analytical your posts are of value to the group.

The dextrin should help and we would be interested in your result.
The percent of dextrin used seems to vary and a larger percentage may work as I think 2% is sometimes used. Gum arabic also seems to be common.

A few have said that the binder may decrease the power of the powder but even if so, the utility of the binder is well worth any marginal decrease in power.

We are looking for consistancy and practicality from our black powder and the dextrin seems to add those values to the process and finished product.

Some of our practitioners do indeed compress the powder into pellets and they seem to work fine. I wouldn't bother to core the pellets as I don't think it will add very much utility to the charge. It might be interesting to pelletize some, add a ball and wrap it up as a paper cartridge.

[J-P]

This may be getting off topic, but do the folks making pellets use corned powder or are they pressing their meal powder into pellets? The first powder I made was so weak that I believe it was compressed to fine powder after I rammed it. Common knowledge says that shooting too fine a powder will result in too high of pressure, right? Have folks ever run into that with homemade BP? Brass lets you know if you're getting close to "too much". Never been there personally, but know what to look for. I noticed that the fouling from my test shots did not pass at all onto the threads of my breach plug grease. Usually, the first 1/2" or so is blackened from every other powder I've used. Maybe overpressure (at least on an inline) would show more leaking there. Or just blow up.

[OverMax]

No Gum Aribic sprayed or dextrin to bind. Don't see how it can hold itself together corn'ed or screened. Suggestion: Order some better KNO3 for the purpose. Stump remover usage isn't the best for the purpose. Just more expensive is all.

[Boz330]

If you only let it dry for a day that might be your problem. I don't use any binder but my pucks dry for several days before I process them, in the sun if possible but just setting around the shop will work. When I break them up it is difficult and I use a ball bat. I then grind them in a ceramic coffee grinder to get my grades. I have found that only 3F gives me the consistency I'm looking for.
I have small samples that are 3 years or more old and it is still holding together just fine and there was no binder added. I have used binder in screened powder but I have gone to corned for everything now.
I used some of the Spectracide stump remover in some of my first batches but KNO3 is easy enough to get so haven't fooled with it since. I didn't notice any significant difference in velocities with it. The deer in the pic was taken with Spectracide. The load developed 75fps less than my competition load with commercial powder and the same boolit. I don't think the deer noticed the difference.
Try the powder measured with a scale instead of a volume measure.
BTW I tried screening pressed pucks after pressing them while still damp and it was similar to regular screened powder in results.

Bob

[Boz330]

My setup. Simple but it works.

Bob

[OverMax]

I've never made any without a binder. (lightly sprayed boiled gun Arabic in H2o) Now I'll sure have to give your process (no binder) a try there Robert. I don't puck either. But I know how its done just in-case I buy a Pietta Colt sometime. BTW: Nice heavy buck there. Didn't think they grew that big down there. lol

[Boz330]

I've never made any without a binder. (lightly sprayed boiled gun Arabic in H2o) Now I'll sure have to give your process (no binder) a try there Robert. I don't puck either. But I know how its done just in-case I buy a Pietta Colt sometime. BTW: Nice heavy buck there. Didn't think they grew that big down there. lol

That is a raghorn compared to some that I took back in the 80s on that same farm. He was one of the nicer ones taken in recent years though. When deer hunting was tough not many stuck it out for the whole season except me and it paid off. When folks figured out there were some good deer it got crazy and on leased land, if it moved it got shot. Too many young bucks were killed way before their prime. A good buck is hard to come by anymore. I don't doubt they are there but they are nocturnal even during the rut.

BTW this is just north of the TN line about 10 miles NE of FT Campbell.

Bob