9x33R Whisper 250g

[HARRYMPOPE]

Ok its just the European name for the 357 magnum but when shot in a Ruger @1A CHP or my new Handi-rifle 357 it needed an exotic name. I have shot 250-280g rifle bullets in my 357 rifle for 20 or so years. My new current Handi is throated very long and will chamber long seated rifle bullets. It shoots as well as my #1 or a custom martini I once owned.It was very windy today so most i did was at 50 yards.The few I shot at 100 were 1" tall by about 2" wide. At the end of the day I used 6.7g of Bullseye ( what my little dandy rotor #12 throws) and a Cramer 9c 250g@ 1140 fps and at 50 it was just over 1/2" groups in the wind. I also shot the RCBS 35-250 SP with all the TrailBoss it would hold(7g) and it also shot well @ 975.Oh yea the bullets were cast two hours before I shot them. Breaking all of the "rules"

It makes the 300 AAC Blackout in a single shot or bolt obsolete<G>If loaded "hot" with R7 you can get about 1400 fps. Anything slower don't burn well enough.

these were three consecutive groups as the sun went down. It was so windy empty 357 cases were blowing off of the bench.

100991

[338RemUltraMag]

Cool deal, it is a sweet concept.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I stole the idea from my old shooting mentor Bob Mills,i don't have original ideas myself.He generlly uses one case and fills it with medium speed powder and doesn't even size it. He just knocks out the primer,reprimes and hand seats a bullet and lets the closing of the action finish the job. Sometimes he doesn't even lube the bullet as he a says at subsonic you barely need it.I have shot at his place with no lube 35 calibers at 1600 fps and shot several consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 under 2".Not great but interesting.

[sthwestvictoria]

This is what I love about handloading and casting - so much scope for fun tweaks that people who just buy stuff in boxes never get to experience.

[Outpost75]

This sounds really great!

I've been fooling with LBT 361-260FN seated out in .38 Special brass (9x29.3R)

101004

with 9 grs. of #2400, but was afraid to try more than 4 grains of Bullseye in my BSA Martini.

You have given me courage to cautiously adventure further with Bullseye, I'll try 4.5 and 5 grains first to see if it stabilizes.

Beyond that, if you see a bright orange mushroom cloud on your eastern horizon you know it is me~!

[texassako]

I do something similar with a little Destroyer rifle in 9mm Largo, but not quite so heavy(smaller case). A slightly different one from the mini Mauser that I can single feed with the bullet seated way out. I have a big jar of 195gr LBT LFN's from a loaner mold that did not fit my .35 Remington. It almost has me looking to put a can on it.

[Jupiter7]

I tend to agree. The only advantage the .300blk has is it's ability to run in an autoloader. I've been considering the same idea with my .357 max.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have a reamer for the 30-357 "Sorta-slow" A buddy had it ground about 10-15 years ago for custom contenders.its esentially a rimmed 300 Whisper/300 AAC.

[crawfobj]

Great concept. Gotta get me a .357 handi!

[runfiverun]

I do abut the same in my 357 max revolver.
250 gr saeco #248's over a charge of aa-2230 it pushes them out with a fooom type sound.
it would work pretty dang well from a 1-10 twist rifle if slowed down even further.
oh and I like my 300 b.o. rifle even though it duplicates my 357 20" carbine levergun ballistically.

[Nrut]

Excellent thread HarryM !

edit: Do you happen to know your twist rates?

[HARRYMPOPE]

1-18 twist

[HARRYMPOPE]

I shot the best group so far today at hundred yards with it. On the recommendation of my friend Bob I left off the gas check I loaded 6.7 grains of bulls eye. The bullet is the RCBS 250 @1140 FPS.the other two groups shot were just at 1.5".this one is just over .75".

101380

[Nrut]

HP,
I tried a 358318 (247grs.) today with 5cc (4.4grs.) of BE..
One shot out the door..

Before I move up to 7cc (6.4grs) I am wondering how much of your bullets are seated in the case?..

To fit my short throat I have to seat the 358318 .100" deep..

Your loaded rounds appear to be barely seated..

How much Rl-7 are you using for your 1400fps loads?
All these questions, eh?

lol

[HARRYMPOPE]

I will have to find my R7 data,but its about a case full.I seat the bullets to engage rifling and they are nit very deep.

I went out today with the no gc loads and after about 15 shots I hit leading problems.the dream is over and back to gc or slower powders.until it started to lead it was shooting about 1.5" then it just went wild into 4" groups.

101579

[HARRYMPOPE]

Here is the target with the groups numbered in the order shot.I ran a tight patch at home and it was filled with tiny lead "glitter".The large single group pic is from another paper and the last shot.The small one is the 1st group shot.The 2nd group wasn't bad either.I don texpect it to be an MOA gun but hovering around 1.5 MOA would be success in my opinion.

click pics to enlarge

101576

101577

101578

[HARRYMPOPE]

that wasn't all of my wandering shot problem.My base screws though all the way tight were bottomed out.I was out later today and was pushing down the ocular lens to close the action when i felt it wobble.I jammed a piece of cardboard between the base and barrel and it was back to shooting round 1.5" groups.I shot one 5 shot group at 200 that was 3".It was crazy windy so next time out on less that a hurricane and a tight scope i hope to repeat earlier success.

[blackpowder man]

I have a rossi r357s single shot and I thought about heavier pistol boolits, but if I could get it to shoot a 250 grain boolit at 1150 fps I would be happy indeed. I bet it has the 1-30" twist like the r92 levers do and might not like boolits that heavy. I will have to get it out and check what the twist is because google is not helping me. Thanks for sharing your results.

[HARRYMPOPE]

How does the Rossi shoot with lighter cast bullets?

[wlc]

Not 357 Mag, but I have been shooting 250 grain boolits in my 357 Max @+-1050fps. 12twist, 16.5" barrel. They are a hoot, especially with the suppressor on. BIG whack on the plywood target backer. I loaded up a few 300gr cast this evening that I'm going to try out tomorrow. IF I can just get rid of the vertical stringing in the Encore, I think the 250's will group pretty well. I get +-1/2-3/4 inch horizontal, but 4-6" vertical.

[HARRYMPOPE]

If the SD's are not uniform its tough not to get vertical subsonic IMHO.I ran into the same problem shooting 30-06 plainbase with the 308403 Pope bullet.I ended up shooting almost every shot over my PACT to see what was happening.Not all super uiform low SD loads grouped(other things made them not shoot) but none that had a lot of velocity variation would group.

[dougader]

Just when I think I don't need anything else.... something like this comes along.

Very cool!

[longbow]

Yup, very cool indeed! I have been pondering on a similar idea for some time but in .44 mag. using boolits of around 400 grs.

I like the whole concept of the big heavy subsonic, or at least slow, boolit.

I've got too many things going on to pursue that one right now but it is interesting to read about this and see such nice groups. That makes for a very versatile range of boolits in .357 too.

How does the long throat handle lighter (more typical) boolit weights?

Longbow

[dougader]

I was thinking of getting a Handi rifle in 300 BLK, but for a single shot rifle, this makes much more sense. Even a 35 Remington...

[HARRYMPOPE]

I was on the fence for the Handi in 300AAC also.Then i thought why not shoot my Ruger #1A laods in a Handi 357.Its a better deal all arround and $150 cheaper.

I shot today and got three five shot groups that were all an even 3" @ 200 yards.The fourth group had 4 into 1.5" and the 5th was 5" high(ouch!!)When i went back to 100 yards i couldnt get it to group under 2" though....wierd? maybe i was shooting too fast.Load was the 250 RCBS with GC and 6.7g Bullseye.

(100 yard grouping figured out,the scope was adjusted after i went to 100 and was topped out and got squirrely.I put an optical boresighter in and adjusted it just to watch it go from moving to not moving to going down and left when i was just moving it left.I turned the elevation down half way and the scope acted normal.it was 10 clicks from topping out elevation wise.)

[rockrat]

Might have to try this with my 445 super mag Handi or my 460 S&W Ruger #1

[HARRYMPOPE]

Here are the 4 200 yard group's.it was pretty windy and it was surprising how well these bucked the wind.My variation is all verticle.I had flags at 50 and 100 and it was hard to pick a condition to shoot in.

101901

[Nrut]

Very good!

What scope are you using to get you out to 200?
Turrets?
Ballistic reticle?

Or do you just aim for the moon?

LOL

[HARRYMPOPE]

Might have to try this with my 445 super mag Handi or my 460 S&W Ruger #1

The "problem" might be the weight of bullet you have to shoot for a good BC for longer ranges.I have tried to get my 44 Handi to shoot a 275 FN bulelts slow but so far no luck.it is 1-38 and I had thought it was 1-20.It does OK at 50 but falls apart at 100.
If your 460 or 445 SM were somewhere near 1-20(and throated to seat long bullets) it would be a neat deal.I'd like to see how it goes,keep us posted.I was going to buy a Handi in 500S&W to try to duplicate the 50-70 but decided the investment in dies and such wasn't worth it.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Very good!

What scope are you using to get you out to 200?
Turrets?
Ballistic reticle?

Or do you just aim for the mooOld 2-10

LOL

its a 1990's Japanese Weaver 2-10 Microtrack.I had a Simmons Philippine 4-12 but i took it off as the elevation adjustments were topped out to zero it at 100. It caused me vertical stringing and other POI issues that wasted ammo and time before i figured it out.

I am on at 100 and about 36" low at 200 @ 1150 fps and teh 250g bulelts.I hold the bottom duplex "point" and just catch the bottom of the paper.
I should use something with mil dots but the trajectory is so looping i doubt it would help.With the loads at 950 drop is more than 48"and i have to aim at a rock on the hill to catch paper.If the moon was out i would have aimed at it.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I tried the RCBS 200 FN today. Loaded with 10g Blue-Dot @ 1300 it shot very well.50 yard groups was .75",100 yard group was 1.5" and the 200 yard group was a fantastic 2.25".(all 5 shot groups)I will have to load this again and see if it holds up.

George

[frnkeore]

George, will that rifle qualify for the Production or Hunter class in CBA? Have you been able to try the 358318 mold?

Great shooting!

Frank

[HARRYMPOPE]

It would but its not consistently accurate. The gun is hard to hold on the bags and keep from rolling. Today I shot some good and bad groups. If I don't pay real close attention to my hold I get groups over 2" at 100.if I hold it together its about 1.5" groups and once in awhile one close to 1".I shot 16 groups today from 50 to 200 yards. I didn't count group #1 as the first shot went 4" high and the next 4 dropped to where they should be into 1.25".The 15 groups averaged just under 2 MOA.The smallest was 1 MOA the biggest 3 MOA.

The Cramer 9c I shoot is about a copy of the 358318 and does pretty good.

George

here are the 100 yard groups

[HARRYMPOPE]

200 yard groups. Bottom right is 5 from the RCBS 200 FN and 10g BLueDot.

102225

[frnkeore]

The other question that I have is, how's the recoil and does that effect the groups?

The reason I'm asking is, I have a Winchester LW in 357 Max and the 358318 mold. It has a light 28" barrel but I'm sure it must weigh at least a pound more than yours.

Frank

[HARRYMPOPE]

Recoil is practically nothing. Barrel time could be an issue but its more bag technique (I think?)

George

[bikerbeans]

Not 357 Mag, but I have been shooting 250 grain boolits in my 357 Max @+-1050fps. 12twist, 16.5" barrel. They are a hoot, especially with the suppressor on. BIG whack on the plywood target backer. I loaded up a few 300gr cast this evening that I'm going to try out tomorrow. IF I can just get rid of the vertical stringing in the Encore, I think the 250's will group pretty well. I get +-1/2-3/4 inch horizontal, but 4-6" vertical.

wlc,

what powder & primers are you using in your 357 Max? I just told a friend I would work up a 1050 fps load with a 230g boolit for his H&R 357 Max.

BB

[wlc]

Rem small pistol primers and American Select for the powder. I'm using 6.1gr and loading at 2.13" with Hunters Supply 246grGC boolits. I need to tweak it a bit more for accuracy, but it is subsonic. Don't know the exact fps as I don't own a chronograph right now. I got the load from a member on another forum that also has a Max. I've also loaded some 300 grainers with Lil gun, but have just started development of that load. Started with 10.5gr, but was supersonic. I think I'm going to like the 300gr boolits better than the 250's.

W231, unique, and 2400 are next on the list. I run stuff through quickload if the powder is supported by it to make sure the pressures, fill capacity, and fps all work before going into basically uncharted waters. I did load a few with Trail Boss, can't remember the load, but they were really quiet.

What twist is his barrel and is he shooting them through a suppressor? If suppressing, make double sure they are stable first if the twist is a slower one. My barrel was a special order with a 12 twist so as to stabilize the 300gr boolits. I "think" a 14 or 16 twist should stabilize a 250gr boolit. I would check one of the online stability calculators before loading many of them just to get an idea.

[bikerbeans]

wlc,

I think he is okay for stability because he was shooting the 230g boolits with TB. He ran out of case capacity before he made 1,050 fps with TB so he wants to switch to Unique. I told him I was game to work on it for him.

Thanks for the American Select load data but I don't have that powder, actually I don't think I have ever seen that powder on the shelf. If I get a load with Unique that is accurate I will post about it.

thanks

BB

[wlc]

BB, try somewhere around 6 grains of unique. Might be supersonic, but will be close. If I had the boolit data (length, weight, his seating depth, OAL, barrel length, etc) I would offer to run it through quickload for you. IIRC I tried 6 or 6.2 under a 250gr and it was subsonic. Thought I was getting poor groups and switched powder. I found it was a vertical stringing problem with the rifle after I switched. I will revisit Unique if the Am Select doesn't give me what I want with the 250 grainer.

[curator]

I shot two different 9X33R loads yesterday with my .360-250 grain LBT SP slug. One load was 8.2 grains of 2400 and the other 12 grains of WC860. The bullets were seated to cover the lube grooves. My Handi-.357 Magnum is about one year old and appears to have 1 in 16" twist. Both loads were very accurate at 50 yards(3/4" 5-shot groups but opened up to about 3" at 100 yards. Bullet-holes at 100 yards appeared somewhat oval so the 250 grain slug may be under-stabilized. Winchester small pistol primers did not show signs of high pressure so it may be possible to bump the velocity up a bit to see if that helps.

[HARRYMPOPE]

My holes at 100 are round.I am.surprised it didn't shoot better at 100.I bet your velocity is low,did you chronograph them?When i shoot subsonic if my velocity isn't very uniform i get very bad stringing that is really seen at longer ranges.I think my buddy uses 10g of 2400 and a 245 SAECO in his 357 Mag(9x33).

[dougader]

I am surprised a bit that your bullets are stabilized enough to shoot such good groups at 200 yards with such heavy bullets and a relatively slow twist. In 300 BLK they run 1-7" twist barrels, don't they?

[HARRYMPOPE]

[QUOTE=dougader;2743603]I am surprised a bit that your bullets are stabilized enough to shoot such good groups at 200 yards with such heavy bullets and a relatively slow twist. In 300 BLK they run 1-7" twist barrels, don't they?[/QUOTe)

A 250g 35 caliber is pretty "short" compared a long heavy 30.sometimes just trying something out rather than crunching numbers lets you find things out.Greenhill would make it seem I'd need 1-14 but that isn't the case.

[jandbj]

I've been using 5.4-5.6 of Am Select in 38 spl cases with Hunters Supply g/c'd 250 grainers loaded to magazine length (1.654" iirc) in a 16.5" 77/357 with CCI 500 primers.... Runs right at 1000fps.

More weight than a subsonic 300blk at the same velocity! :lovebooli

[bikerbeans]

BB, try somewhere around 6 grains of unique. Might be supersonic, but will be close. If I had the boolit data (length, weight, his seating depth, OAL, barrel length, etc) I would offer to run it through quickload for you. IIRC I tried 6 or 6.2 under a 250gr and it was subsonic. Thought I was getting poor groups and switched powder. I found it was a vertical stringing problem with the rifle after I switched. I will revisit Unique if the Am Select doesn't give me what I want with the 250 grainer.

wlc,

thanks for the QL offer, I may take you up on it once I get the boolits and can make the measurements. My thoughts before posting was to start at 4.5g of Unique and work my way up 1,050 fps.

BB

[HARRYMPOPE]

[QUOTE=jandbj;2744300]I've been using 5.4-5.6 of Am Select in 38 spl cases with Hunters Supply g/c'd 250 grainers loaded to magazine length (1.654" iirc) in a 16.5" 77/357 with CCI 500 primers.... Runs right at 1000fps.

More weight than a subsonic 300blk at the same velocity! :lovebooli[/QUOTt

They feed ok?I wouldn't have thought it would work.now I have to look at the 77/357.

[jandbj]

I've been using 5.4-5.6 of Am Select in 38 spl cases with Hunters Supply g/c'd 250 grainers loaded to magazine length (1.654" iirc) in a 16.5" 77/357 with CCI 500 primers.... Runs right at 1000fps.

More weight than a subsonic 300blk at the same velocity! :lovebooli

They feed ok?I wouldn't have thought it would work.now I have to look at the 77/357.

They were just a bit wonky to feed at first, but once the gun was broken in & my extractor was tweaked to work correctly, they have fed through it amazingly well! Still have 100 that I loaded too long and need to single feed left to run but since I got the length perfect they have fed perfectly. I run it as a dedicated suppressed rig presently with a 9mm can, but will be running some unsuppressed supersonics at some point this year for hunting.

It is by far my favorite rifle. Since 22LR ammo went full retard, I shoot this more than anything else.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR9zUyVlPF8

[HARRYMPOPE]

Good stuff!.I think about supressing the handi but cant stomach the $200 tax and cost if the silencer.

[Nrut]

I've been using 5.4-5.6 of Am Select in 38 spl cases with Hunters Supply g/c'd 250 grainers loaded to magazine length (1.654" iirc) in a 16.5" 77/357 with CCI 500 primers.... Runs right at 1000fps.

More weight than a subsonic 300blk at the same velocity! :lovebooli
jandbj,
What kind of accuracy are you getting form your little 77/357 using the above load?

[jandbj]

I'm not the best bench shooter on earth but it consistently manages 1.5"-2" at 100 yds. Planning on trying it on coyotes this year. If it does well (should penetrate all out of proportion to what it looks like on paper), perhaps I'll abandon the idea of a supersonic load for deer and stick with the heavyweight slowpoke. Never had a shot past 75 yards in these woods.

[Nrut]

That's excellent accuracy out of such a light little rifle with cast..

I took a pass on them when they came out because of their price and I figured Ruger would not build them with enough mag. length to accommodate long heavier bullets..

I will have to take a look at the thread on them in the "factory rifles" forum to learn more before I dive in..
If a guy could get the 35 Thor with it's flat nose to feed in them he would have a real dandy short range killer..

Thanks for your reply..

[jandbj]

Magazine length is the big limiting factor with these. I can only load the 250's in 38 cases to still fit the magazine. Penn 230's fit in mag cases and still feed well inspite of their huge frontal area.

I wouldn't have bought the rifle at retail price. I found a factory blem with a double struck roll mark. Got it for $380 OTD. Waaaaayyyy less than dealer cost. Sometimes it pays to drive all the way to Newport, NH.... Gunshop across the street from the factory is the only place to buy cosmetic blems.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Now I have to borrow my buddies 357/77.the one I had in 44 was really limited in magazine length and I figured the 357 would also be.my 44 also had a very short abrupt throat and never did like cast all that well.

[wlc]

Good stuff!.I think about supressing the handi but cant stomach the $200 tax and cost if the silencer.

If you ever get one, you'll wonder why you have ever shot anything without one. My first one was a 22lr suppressor. I was all smiles and giggles then I realized how much more pleasant it was to shoot with it. Next was a Liberty Suppressors Mystic. It is a very versatile 9mm suppressor that can be used on a multitude of stuff. I shoot it on my 300blk, 357 Max, 9mm pistol, and occasionally a 22lr rifle. It can even be shot on a 16 inch barreled 223. I really think that every single firearm, with the exception of revolvers, should come from the factory with one.

Back to the topic at hand: Today I shot both my 300blk AR and the 357Max Encore. Both suppressed. The AR load was a 208gr AMAX with 1680, and some 220smk's also with 1680. The Max was a 250gr Hunters supply 250gr cast over American Select. I'll take the Max any day over the 300blk. Or at least over an AR in 300blk. Recoil in either one is practically non-existent, accuracy is comparable, but man them AR's are just louder. Too much action and port noise when compared to the Encore's platform, and 1680 is a "loud" powder. But that is what it takes to cycle an AR action. Those 250gr boolits in the Max hit with some authority. Next I'll be on the hunt for something like a 77/357.

A question. I've been having to buy my cast boolits for the Max as I don't have a real heavy weight mold in 358. Does anyone make a plain base mold in a 250 to 300 grain 358 boolit?

[HARRYMPOPE]

I use an RCBS 250 GC bullet without GC.its a special order mold and expensive.Best bet would be Accurate molds,he has quite a few heavy designs.