45-70 Short Rifle, What to do with the rear sight?

[Jeff R]

At a recent gun show, I picked up this old Winchester. It came with the tang sight already on it.

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At about 45 yards, using the buckhorn sight, on the barrel, with a 325 gr. or the Lee 405 gr. boolit, and 48 gr. of Varget, they hit right at the point of aim. That is with the buckhorn sight in its lowest position. The recoil is OK, but I wouldn't let the grandchildren shoot it. With the Lee 405 and 11.0 gr. of Unique, the recoil is very mild, but the point of impact is 9 or 10 inches higher, and I can't adjust the buckhorn sight to hit any lower.

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Also, with the Varget loads, and the tang sight folded down, the web between my thumb and finger takes a pretty good beating from the sight. With the tang sight flipped up, the sight picture, with the buckhorn sight in the way, is pretty crumby.

If I were to remove the buckhorn sight, do you think I can crank the tang sight down far enough to get the 11.0 gr. Unique loads to hit the red dot? The Unique group in the photo is not exactly a big cloverleaf, but I'll tinker with it. Because of its carbine like heft, I'd like my "plinking" load to be something that doesn't have 48 gr. of Varget.

100987

If I remove the buckhorn sight, I'll use a brass punch to slide it out. Are they only supposed to slide in and out of the dovetail from one direction, like the right side or the left side? Or, doesn't it make any difference which direction you slide it out?
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.
Regards,
Jeff

[NSB]

Put a taller front sight on the gun. I suspect someone has changed the front sight for some reason. With the original buckhorn sight you should have elevation adjustment both up and down and you only have "up". Knock it out and measure it. Call Brownells and get the next size taller. I don't think your gun is as old as you think it is.

[M-Tecs]

With the muzzle pointing away from you it's left to right for removal and right to left for install.

[Tatume]

To find out if the tang sight will adjust down far enough run it down and look through it. If you can adjust it to where it is aligned with the barrel mounted sights, then it is down far enough. At this point remove the barrel mounted rear sight, and you should be close enough to shoot groups and do final adjustments.

If the tang sight will not adjust to point of impact, get a replacement front sight. I recommend XS: http://www.xssights.com/

Brownells has dovetail blanks for about $5. They look very nice, and give a professional appearance when installed.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/sight-parts/front-sight-blanks/marble-slot-blank-prod8820.aspx

Take care, Tom

[Randy C]

Midway also sells what you need and they have several videos on how to do it, I was watching one last night, it was on the same gun I think, and yes you have to take it out in the right direction, some time you have to put a shim under the new sight to make it tight.

[oldred]

With the muzzle pointing away from you it's left to right for removal and right to left for install.

???????? How can it possibly make a difference which way? A dove tail cutter does not cut a tapered slot so why does it make any difference?

Not trying to argue, it's just that I have never heard this before and simply can't see why it would matter. In fact a tapered dovetail would allow the sight to become loose and fall out if it were to be knocked over to the "loose" side by even a few thousandths and would limit the amount of travel to the "tight" side so how could it be drifted to compensate for windage? Just got my curiosity up on this one.


I guess "windage" would not be the correct term since the sight is not normally drifted to correct for windy conditions but it is drifted to correct for permanent left/right correction, can someone help me out here with the proper term for that?

[M-Tecs]

This is just my opinion but I agree that the machine cut dovetail slots are not tapered. Some of the hand cut are. On SOME bases the base itself is tapered so it does make a difference on some.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/marlin-collectors/90516-removing-dovetail-sight-marlin-lever-actions-2.html

http://www.shootersforum.com/gunsmithing/78774-do-i-have-tap-front-sight-out-certain-way.html


???????? I guess "windage" would not be the correct term since the sight is not normally drifted to correct for windy conditions but it is drifted to correct for permanent left/right correction, can someone help me out here with the proper term for that?

POI point of impact

[elk hunter]

It has long been considered proper to drift sights in and out in the above manner for the following reason; In order for the sight to remain tight in the dovetail slot the slot is a wee bit smaller than the sight base. You actually taper the slot when you drift the sight in the first time. If you drift the sight through the slot the slot is opened up and can, especially if done repeatedly, become loose enough that you would need to peen the top of the slot, raise a bump in the bottom of the slot or shim the slot or sight to tighten it back up. Loose sights on old guns are quite common and I believe that it can be traced to drifting the sights improperly. I learned from a gunsmith that left no doubt about the proper way to adjust open sights.

[Tatume]

... if done repeatedly, become loose enough that you would need to peen the top of the slot, raise a bump in the bottom of the slot or shim the slot or sight to tighten it back up.

An alternative that I have used many times is to place the sight in a vice and raise bumps on the bottom of the sight with a center punch. This has the advantage of modifying a relatively inexpensive part rather than working on the barrel itself.

Take care, Tom

[Gunlaker]

I very recently asked my gunsmith about tapered dovetails. He's quite a talented fellow. He told me that most modern dovetails are parallel, but some dovetails are cut tapered. He says to cut really good dovetails you use an undersized cutter and then you can mill it tapered or parallel depending on how you move the cutter.

Chris.

[bigted]

that standup post, wrist mounted peep, should adjust down enough to bring aim and impact on the target together. if not then as stated above ... get a taller front sight to install.

might I suggest that for around 20 dollars ... to get and try a blade front sight. at C-Sharps in Montana ... they sell just such a sight and ... in my opinion ... short of installing a scope ... these blade front sights do very well in most any condition.

[Doc Highwall]

After you cut the dovetail in the barrel you file onlybthe sight to make it fit, do not file the dovetail in the barrel to make the front sight fit. Always do your work on the least expensive piece.

Measure twice and cut once.

[Tatume]

Hi Ted,

That looks like a nice blade sight, and I might try one. However, I will point out a couple of reasons why I like the XS blade front sight.

1. It has a white painted stripe up the edge that makes seeing the blade very easy, especially under low-light conditions. This gives the sight a non-traditional appearance, which is a down side, but I feel it is worth the price.

2. XS supplies plastic "try" sights. You fit the plastic post with finger pressure, shoot the gun, clip off a piece, shoot again, until you get to the height you want. This allows the front sight to be tailored to the rear. Now remove the plastic front sight, and measure the entire sight. This is the height you need. If you bought a front sight and it is the wrong height, XS will exhange it (provided it has not been mounted). Otherwise, you can order the correct sight. These plastic try sights are so nice I keep a collection of them, as I often fit front sights.

Take care, Tom

[Scharfschuetze]

I guess "windage" would not be the correct term since the sight is not normally drifted to correct for windy conditions but it is drifted to correct for permanent left/right correction, can someone help me out here with the proper term for that?

I think that the term you're looking for is "deflection."

While that term is mostly associated with mortar, machine gun and artillery sights, it's also apropos for "windage" changes to zero small arms.

+1 on the higher sight for the rifle if you keep the buckhorn sight on the barrel. I prefer an aperture sight, but perhaps you can zero up with your buckhorn for closer ranges and your tang sight for longer ranges.

In making a few assumptions on your sight radius (SWAG at 20"), some quick math indicates (rounding the numbers up) that you should raise your front sight about .12" to lower the point of impact 10" at 45-50 yards.

[montana_charlie]

On firearms where 'which way' matters, it is traditional that parts go from left to right to assemble the gun, and right to left when disassembling. The 'right' side of the gun is that which is on the right when holding the gun in a shooting position.

Examples can be found in (for instance) the barrel wedge on the early revolvers, and the slide stop on the 1911, just to name two.
For confirmation, check out the manufacturer's approved disassembly procedure for almost any gun.
If right or left does matter on that firearm, things will probably go left for removal.

Most people who make, or repair, guns still follow the same tradition. It helps to prevent confusion.

[M-Tecs]

CM I have to disagree with you. The wedge pin on the Colt BP pistols is the only example that I can think of that's right to left for disassembly just because. Things like the 1911 slide stop and safety have to go that direction because of psychical location. As a general rule most firearms with headed or tapered pins go left to right for disassembly. Same for sights. Both the Rem 700 and Win 70 have a headed pin that goes right to left for disassembly but again this has a function to retain something.

http://books.google.com/books?id=SY7K7Gi91xcC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=what+direction+for+removing+pins+on+firearms&source=bl&ots=ShThPUmZsA&sig=O9_H-qjv0iB7GOIRGtGeNWrHaqQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=79I5U4nKNeOU0QGAn4GQAQ&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=what%20direction%20for%20removing%20pins%20on%20 firearms&f=false
see first paragraph it will not cut and paste

The M1 Garand and M14 trigger and hammer pins go left to right for disassembly.

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/Inst-280%20Taper%20Pin%20Starter.pdf
Since the taper pins are installed from the right side of the rifle, they must be removed by driving from the left to the right.

Ar15 the pivot pin and takedown pin both go left to right for disassembly. Same for the tapered pins in the front sight.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/535613_.html
"Well they were finally removed (and they did go out from left to right)."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/583642_Front_sight_taper_pins.html
"They are crazy hard to get out in the correct direction (left to right). I really doubt you could drive them out the wrong way...

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/skinner-sights/53211-fitting-dovetail-sight.html
"In the firearms world, most dovetails are fit right to left as you are looking DOWN the barrel (like when shooting) HOWEVER, the cutting of the dovetails is a parallel process and there is no taper to either the sight base or the slot in the barrel. The only time that becomes a taper is when doing the hand fitting of the dovetail. A slight taper on the left side of the sight allows the sight to start into the slot"

http://www.skinnersights.com/front_sights_5.html


FITTING A FRONT SIGHT

Remove the front sight from the rifle using a brass punch and a mallet. Drift the sight from left to right (as viewed from the rear sighting down the barrel)Hold the new sight to the right side of the slot and try to start the sight. If it will start then drift it into center position using the brass punch and mallet. If you cannot start it by hand, you will need to use a small triangular file to remove some metal. Very little filing will be necessary. File a couple of strokes then check.

File only on the sloped side of the SIGHT dovetail and only file on one of the two surfaces.

THE DOVETAIL ON THE SIGHT IS MADE SLIGHTLY OVERSIZE DUE TO VARIATIONS IN WIDTHS OF THE DOVETAIL SLOT ON THE GUN.

The goal is a firm friction fit that cannot be moved by hand, but can be moved with gentle taps of a punch and mallet.

[oldred]

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/skinner-sights/53211-fitting-dovetail-sight.html
"In the firearms world, most dovetails are fit right to left as you are looking DOWN the barrel (like when shooting) HOWEVER, the cutting of the dovetails is a parallel process and there is no taper to either the sight base or the slot in the barrel. The only time that becomes a taper is when doing the hand fitting of the dovetail. A slight taper on the left side of the sight allows the sight to start into the slot"

http://www.skinnersights.com/front_sights_5.html



That makes sense and while I was not going to disagree about whether or not dovetails are beveled it just made no sense and opens up a whole batch of problems. If both the sight base and dovetail were beveled then fit tolerance would be extremely critical limiting the possible location of the sight to a very narrow range, a few thousandths to far to the "loose" side and the sight would be loose and if it needed to go a few thousandths into the "tight" side to locate properly it would bind. Having only the sight base tapered and fit into a straight dovetail would allow the sight to wiggle since it would only be making contact at the widest corners.


"A slight taper on the left side of the sight allows the sight to start into the slot"

I think what they meant there was a chamfer to the corners and not an actual taper to the base since a true taper would result in a sight that could wiggle side to side for reasons already mentioned, a slight chamfering of the corners however would leave the sight base straight for full contact but still easy to start into the dove tail. The reasoning that it should be always removed/replaced right to left so that the sight will be removed the the reverse of the way it was installed to limit damage to this interference type fit does however make a lot of sense and I hadn't thought of that, I will remember that and do it that way from now on.

[kootne]

I don't no how the Japanese cut those dovetails, I know at the old Ballard outfit we tapered (.003-5") the rear side of the dovetail for about a 1/3 of the way across from the right hand side, then straight the rest of the way. The front side was cut a thou or 2 at a time till the sight would start into the taper and then fine tuned till only slight resistance. When the barrel and sight were blued the fit tightened up a little. Other outfits cut both parts to within a tolerance and select fit. Easy to "crimp" the corners down to tighten up a loose one or use a safety edge file on the sight of a tight one. They go in and out from the right hand side. If you check an original Winchester barrel you will find a similar taper. It helps to start the sight straight without burring the barrel.
kootne

[M-Tecs]

I don't no how the Japanese cut those dovetails, I know at the old Ballard outfit we tapered (.003-5") the rear side of the dovetail for about a 1/3 of the way across from the right hand side, then straight the rest of the way. The front side was cut a thou or 2 at a time till the sight would start into the taper and then fine tuned till only slight resistance. When the barrel and sight were blued the fit tightened up a little. Other outfits cut both parts to within a tolerance and select fit. Easy to "crimp" the corners down to tighten up a loose one or use a safety edge file on the sight of a tight one. They go in and out from the right hand side. If you check an original Winchester barrel you will find a similar taper. It helps to start the sight straight without burring the barrel.
kootne

Kootne.

Thanks for the info. I have seen this type of cut on the sight base but not one the barrel itself.

Did Ballard machine cut the (.003-5") taper on or was it done with a 60° STANDARD SLOT SIGHT BASE FILE?

[kootne]

M-TEC, Done on Bridgeport type mill mostly. One hand on the x-axis handwheel, the other on the y. 2 hands plus 2 eyes co-ordination is required. One eye on the DRO, the other on where the cutter is in the cut. That is why the dovetail starts undersize, you don't get the taper right, you try again. Finish cut for final size is on the opposite side because all that's required is a single axis motion, hard to mess that up. I'm sure outfits that have the volume dedicate a CNC mill to dovetails. Or smaller, they do it with a file like many have already said. The tapered lead-in is only about a third, the rest is straight the way we did it. It prevents throwing up burrs or getting the sight cocked on entry.
kootne

[M-Tecs]

M-TEC, Done on Bridgeport type mill mostly. One hand on the x-axis handwheel, the other on the y. 2 hands plus 2 eyes co-ordination is required. One eye on the DRO, the other on where the cutter is in the cut. That is why the dovetail starts undersize, you don't get the taper right, you try again. Finish cut for final size is on the opposite side because all that's required is a single axis motion, hard to mess that up. I'm sure outfits that have the volume dedicate a CNC mill to dovetails. Or smaller, they do it with a file like many have already said. The tapered lead-in is only about a third, the rest is straight the way we did it. It prevents throwing up burrs or getting the sight cocked on entry.
kootne

Thank you Sir for taking the time to explain your process.:drinks:

[blackpowder man]

Jeff, I had a 1885 like yours, but with the 28" barrel and had exactly the same issue with the sights. I bought mine new from Davidson's, so I will figure the sights were the ones from the factory. I had the same experience with shooting really high and the buckhorn as low as it would go. Shooting the lee 500 grain boolit over sr4759 it was somewhere around 18-20" high at 100 yards. I took the rear sight out and used a filler in the rear dovetail. I also have a 22" barreled 1885 winchester in 38-55 in the same set up with a filler where the rear sight used to be. The recoil can be ugly on the hand from the tang sight and I quit putting my thumb around it. I just keep that right thumb over on the right side of the stock. I love those guns. Good luck with yours.

[Goatwhiskers]

Jeff, I shoot a Cadet with a flip-up sight on the rear of the receiver that must be folded down to use a 'scope, creates the same grip problem you mentioned. As bpman says, you learn to shoot with your thumb outside the stock, seems peculiar but you quickly get used to it. Kinda like teaching yourself to shoot with both eyes open instead of squinting one closed, it works! GW

[rr2241tx]

I have the exact rifle you have and with any load I cared to shoot the front sight was too low so I ordered the tallest Marbles replacement with a 1/16" brass bead from Brownells. That fixed the high POI problem. I also got a slot blank and drifted the buckhorn out. That fixed the crumby sight picture issue. Only shoot it with the tang sight and my thumb and I are friends again plus I can see the sights. If you decide to shoot black powder, make sure you can chamber a dummy round before making a box full of rounds. I have had good results with Bad Man 405 BBFP crimped into the crimp groove but my BPCR boolit would not chamber.

[Sgt Red Leg]

My Daughter and I shoot a 1874 Sharps in .45-70. Our tang mounted rear sight (MVA) works well w/the globe front sight. The factory barrel mounted buck horn sight does not inter fear. We quickly learned to shoot w/our thumb along the right side of the stock. It did not take long to get used to and feels quite natural now. It does not lessen your control of the rifle. We, ( especially she ) do quite well out to 400 yards. Looking for a 600 yard range.

[bigted]

a few years ago when I was a newbie here ... I asked the question on the blackpowder cartridge section ... "what to do with my thumb" ... you woulda thought I had called someone's mom a bad name. almost all mentioned that to not curl the thumb over the wrist would never allow me to shoot a single shot in an accurate fashion. when I mentioned that my bolt gun shooting required me to hold my thumb along side the wrist instead of over it for a more speedy reload ... no one seemed to know what I was talking about.

my favorite way to shoot is with my thumb about in the middle of the wrist ... but ... with any kinda wrist mounted sight this is impossible. I too hold my thumb on the side rather then wrapped over the wrist. seems like a natural hold now and I have a hard time still wrapping my thumb over the wrist ... even when I could do so. just aint natural for me.

AND in answer to the OP original question ... in a small drawer or a box so marked would be my suggestion.

[EDG]

Wrap the buckhorn in a sandwich bag and put it in the stock bolt hole.

[Jeff R]

I am coach-able, and I have it surrounded!

I have followed the advice of you posters, and have installed a tall front sight on my Winchester 45-70. I ordered the 1/16th inch gold dot, and that's what it said on the bag, but the dot is actually a 3/32 dot. I like it better, as it is easier to see it. I put it on after work and was able to try it out before it got dark.

102433

I didn't have to adjust the tang peep very much to get my "Plinking" load to hit dead center. Without adjusting the sight, the other two Boolits have the bulls eye surrounded.

102434

I got about 25 pounds of the 535 gr. Louvrin Boolits with a BPCR that I bought, just because it was such a good deal. It came with the mould too, and 150 cases and a couple spare sear springs. At the time I though that no one could have any possible use for such a large Boolit. I have seen the light though.

102435

Now, I just need to come up with a load for my Lee 405 grain Boolit that will hit in the same area as the other three Boolits. I bought the blank insert for the rear sight slot, but did not have a chance to remove the rear sight yet. I will store it properly, in a small bag, labeled, in a small drawer.
Thanks again for the great advice.
Jeff

[Doc Highwall]

Jeff, who's bullet is that in the middle with the wide nose?

[Jeff R]

Doc,
That middle one in the photo is the excellent NOE 460-350 boolit. It will be my plinking boolit. I have the 4 cavity mould, and it really cranks 'em out. The Gould hollow point would have made a great plinking boolit too, but casting them in a single cavity mould takes way too long, compared to the 4 cav NOE mould.
Jeff

[bigted]

I have an 'accurate' mold in 345 grain and it shoots lights out at 75 yds with 48 grains IMR 3031 powder. the nose is nice n fat but the ogive is such that the Winchester '85' is the only rifle that will chamber it. cant even get my ruger to chamber when crimped in the crimp groove. mold number is ... 460345. Tom sure makes great molds and the brass ones ... as heavy as they are ... sure cast great boolits.

I am like Jeff ... I love the Lyman 330 Gould boolit but even with the pin snipped off for a solid point boolit ... it just drives me nuts fumbling around with a single cavity ... as well as the pin getting inserted every time and removed ... then there is the fumbling the pin and dropping it on the floor ... ect ... no fun for me either.

Tom has me completely converted to multi cavity molds and boy even the 2 cavity molds crank out the boolits and is very satisfying to see em stack up when casting ...

the other single thing that has made my casting chores a lot more fun is the clamp style handles I bought from Buff arms in Idaho ... this is just the thing as it closes the same every time and the boolits that fall outta the mold will mostly stay within 1/2 grain of each other ... mostly within 2 or 3 10ths of a grain. no tiring of my hand by needing to grip the other handles the same each time and I can fill the mold and set it down if I am casting the big heavy's as with a mold they get warm pretty fast and need some time to cool every once inna while , ... these handles shine when doing this as I allow em to cool a bit with lead in the cavity's so they cool evenly.