35 Whelen AI: The search begins.

[robroy]

I’m about to start developing loads for Bubba 17, my 35 Whelen AI. I had this built some years ago (before gun smith school) on my grand father’s 1917 Eddystone Enfield. Pictured in this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236471-Hoorah-for-forgotten-stashes. It was rebarreled with a 16 twist Shilen barrel; converted to cock on open; given a Timney trigger; and fitted to a Boyds laminate JRS stock. Dummy rounds showed that the feed ramp of the mag didn’t quite match up with the ramp on the receiver. Some more inletting should get them to match. The rifle as is, takes a shaving of lead off the edge of the meplat on 360-235 Thors and somewhat smaller pieces from the RD 359-190 and a SWC that I have yet to identify. Other than that, rounds feed well from the magazine. The barrel was full length bedded. The smith and I talked about it and agreed that it was easier to remove material than to add it later. If this were a bench gun only, I’d have opted for bedding the receiver and chamber and letting the barrel float. Trigger time will tell. I later fitted a Vais muzzle brake and have yet to fit the thread protector.

In my searches on this forum I’ve found several plinking loads for SWC boolits. Most recommended powders seem to be Bullseye and Unique. I have neither of these powders on hand. These come very close to lead loads I found in Lee’s 1st book for 357Mag. Hodgden’s web data for handgun loads shows 357 mag loads that come close to the levels recommended. Starting loads for H Universal Clays 4gr for 890 fps and max 6.2gr for 1247 fps. For W231 start 3.4gr for 796 fps and max 5.0gr for 1109fps. Since I have these powders this is where I’ll start. Given the much larger volume of the 35 Whelen AI case, am I courting a stuck boolit with the start loads?

I’m not advocating using one cartridge’s data to load for another. It was a happy coincidence that the loads matched up the way they did. If I had found significantly larger differences between the 357 mag data and the mouse fart loads for the Whelen I would have been asking different questions

[sthwestvictoria]

I tried ADI AP70N (Hodgdon Universal) in my 35 whelen with the Lee RNFP and could not get any accuracy, I think it was a bit slow and possibly position sensitive, I should revisit as I now have a chrongraph. Although alot of people seem to use it in place of unique.

I think your idea about Clays (ADI AS30N) is better although those loads sound fairly light, maybe someone with experience with Clays will weigh in.

I now use Trail Boss, 7.0grains under a 158grain RNFP will group to an inch at 25metres for 990fps. I have another load with 11.5grains trail boss for 1400fps. On the ADI burn rate chart, Trail Boss is immediately under AS30N.

IT is frustrating that books such as the Lyman suggest only two loads for cast 190 and 204grains when the Whelen can cover so much more.

This is a thread that I started when I was looking at these light loads:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183082-35-Whelen-and-pistol-38-357-boolits
There is one reply on page 2 of that thread about using 231.

[robroy]

Thanks sthwestvictoria. I have that thread saved. It was part of the research I did prior to posting. The trail Boss sounds like it might work but I don't want to buy anything else for this project just now.

[sthwestvictoria]

I don't want to buy anything else for this project just now.
No I don't think you'll need to. The Clays will be fine, just finding a load that does not demonstrate position sensitivity in the fairly voluminous 35 AI case. The only problem you may run into will be sticking a bullet but use a relatively soft alloy for the bullets, take a well wrapped steel or brass rod to the range and check the bore after each low velocity shot. Do you have access to a chronograph?

[robroy]

I do have a chrono and I'm trying to find an appropriate tripod so I can use it. My computer doesn't seem to like the DVD that came with the chrono.

[35 shooter]

I'll be following this with interest robroy. Of course you already know "i'm whelen crazy".
Haven't used the powders you mentioned except for unique and for whatever reason it didn't shoot for beans in my rifle with or without a filler, but that doesn't mean it won't work for you. I did find a can of bulls eye so guess i'll drill out some primer holes and give it a go.
Had a good day at the range today with the whelen working with Ben's Red and imr 4350 and fairly heavy loads and 4759 with lighter loads. Im liking that Ben's Red lube so far.
Can't wait for your first range trip!

[robroy]

Can't wait for your first range trip!

Me too! Want me to post some pictures of my Thor Dummies just for kicks:kidding:

[robroy]

I've got 20 rounds loaded as follows: 5) w231 6gr, 5) w231 6.3gr 5) A7 9.5 gr, 5) A7 10gr all under Lyman 358477 that were tumble lubed with LLA weighing in at 154gr each. I used Lee's data since I could take the book to the bench. Sthwestvictoria said he found some position sensitivity with universal. I may try it later. I tried A7 on the same basis as W231, that is, a starting load for 357 magnum. Off to the range tomorrow morning.

[35 shooter]

Yeah man! Love those Thor pics. I've still got a handful i got in a trade. TxGuNut casts a mean boolit btw. Those things looked just as good as his pics did. They shoot good too by the way. i'll eventually have a mould made up that pours that boolit @ .360 with straight ww. I'd like to try Accurate Moulds 245 Saeco clone and his 358009 version too.
You guys keep testing all these boolits out in the whelens, and your gonna make me wear my bbl. out just trying to keep up.:-)

[sthwestvictoria]

I had to sight in a new scope - these light pistol bullets with cheap loads of powder work beautifully for getting on paper at 25-50 metres. You then save the expensive GC/full house loads for the final tweaking at 100metres.

[robroy]

Well "tomorrow" turned into the weekend. So it goes. Short version is I'm going to work with some more W231 Loads
50 yds gave me the following
101468
Top Left AA#7 @ 9.5 gr Approx. 4" Top right AA#7 @ 10 gr Approx. 3"
Both AA#7 loads left unburned powder in the barrel (24")
Center W231 @ 6.3 gr about an inch
Center low W231 @ 6gr 4 into an inch and a hiccup at 3 o'clock that opened it up to 3 1/2". I think I'll go back to 6gr and work up in 0.1gr steps till the groups open up or the primers flatten out. I'm guessing accuracy will go south before pressures get too high.

[robroy]

I wonder if those loads will work for fireforming new brass. The necks had no soot on them which, I think, indicates pressure high enouth to seal the chamber. Maybe not. Just sealing the chamber may not form the brass. Opinions please. And I will get the rifles opinion next time out.

[TXGunNut]

Never had the need for fireforming but sealing the chamber is a good sign, I guess. Will be interested in your rifle's opinion as well. I need to get back to work on my 35 Whelen project and this thread helps. My Winchester 670 didn't much care for the nose profile of the Thor but it tolerated the RD 359-190 well enough.
Good luck on your project, keep us posted.

[Clay M]

The RCBS 35 cal 250 gr GC mold is a good design for the Whelen..It is a custom shop mold but Midway has them in stock.Pay no attention to the picture on the Midway sight. That is not the bullet.
It looks like a scaled up version of the RCBS 30 cal 165 gr silhouette bullet with the bore riding nose and one grease groove.I bought the mold to use in my .350 rem mag. I expect the accuracy to be sublime. I will have to load it single shot in my rifle to keep the GC within the neck. The gun is a short action Rem 700 classic.

[sthwestvictoria]

Center W231 @ 6.3 gr about an inch
I'm guessing accuracy will go south before pressures get too high.
That is a great result for these sort of non-GC SWC pistol bullet loads (is that the UN-identified SWC you have?). How far below the aiming point for full house loads is the point of impact? For my lee 158-358-RNFP I recall it was almost 6" below at 50metres. I'll have to go and try to compare again.

[robroy]

Have fun TX. Clay, how long are the necks on your 350 Magnum? From the drawing I just looked at it should be about .411". That's gotta be a long boolit. Fortunately for me the 17 has lots of room in the magazine.

[Clay M]

Have fun TX. Clay, how long are the necks on your 350 Magnum? From the drawing I just looked at it should be about .411". That's gotta be a long boolit. Fortunately for me the 17 has lots of room in the magazine.



The neck on the 350 rem mag is .335 ,which is the length from the base of the bullet to the front driving band. Unfortunately the short action 700 has NO room in the magazine for anything larger than about a 225 gr bullet. I can seat the bullet deeper but the gas check will then be below the neck.

[robroy]

SWV, The pills are Lyman 358477 dropping from the mould at .361 x .363. I'm lubing with LLA and shooting as cast. POI was 3 1/2" lower than the last loads I shot about 8 years ago. They were probbably Sierra 225 gr Game Kings and velocity is only a guess at 2400 fps.

[TXGunNut]

Are you pushing those 358477's at 2400 fps? With a nekkid base? Wow. I'm looking for a PB boolit for my 35 Rem but haven't gotten too serious about it. Glad to see someone else using LLA, sometimes I think it only works for me.

[sthwestvictoria]

Are you pushing those 358477's at 2400 fps?
I read his comment that the last jacketed loads he shot 8 years ago were at that velocity and the cast loads are now shooting 4inches below that.

[TXGunNut]

I read his comment that the last jacketed loads he shot 8 years ago were at that velocity and the cast loads are now shooting 4inches below that.

That makes more sense, SWAG'd his 231 loads @ around 1200 but thought maybe he was shooting something else.

[robroy]

Haven't got the chrono out yet. I did shoot some more pop gun loads this past weekend though. All were in the 2 1/2 to 3 inch range with between 6.1 and 6.6 grain charges. I used some boolits of questionable quality, such as wrinkles in drive bands.

[Bullshop]

My working jacketed bullet load for the 35 Whelen Imp was 57gn 4320 with the 250gn Speer. Velocity was 2615 average fps.
My working load with our 270gn custom design boolit is doing 2400 fps but the load I cant remember without going to the shop to look it up. I will do so if requested.
My second eldest son Tony shot a 50" moose with the 270gn boolit and dropped him in his tracks with one well placed shot at a lazered 178 yards.

[35 shooter]

Sure hope i hear a whelen report for Easter.:-)

[TXGunNut]

Sure hope i hear a whelen report for Easter.:-)

Not from me, bad weather forecast tomorrow and I had to do yard work today. If the weatherman's wrong you'll get your wish, my friend.

[35 shooter]

Not from me, bad weather forecast tomorrow and I had to do yard work today. If the weatherman's wrong you'll get your wish, my friend.

LOL i hope that weatherman hasn't got a clue what he's talking about! If we can keep the wind out of here tommorrow it should be good to go here. Hopin robroy chimes in soon too with another AI report.

[TXGunNut]

Had a few showers earlier but the main event is forecast for this afternoon. Looking out the window I can't help but wonder if I could sneak in a quickie range trip. Range bag is packed. Was planning on grinding some venison and pouring some 360318's but that can wait a few hours.
edit: just got a thumb's up from the radar!

[robroy]

well it happens that my wedding aniversery fell on Easter Sunday this year. Kinda kept me off the range this past weekend.

[35 shooter]

Congratulations on the anniversary robroy. That was definitly the most important thing to give attention to. Hope it was a good one!

[black mamba]

My Gentry custom Whelen AI (24" 14 twist barrel) likes 62 gr of Alliant 2000-MR with Hornady 250 ILSP for 2625 fps.

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss332/jwoodside4/MediumBores-1.jpg~original

The only cast bullet load I use is 32.5 gr A5744 and Fed 215 primers under the RCBS 35-250GC. Gives about 1950 fps and fireforms sharp shoulders in one shot. Good for minute of angle out to 50 yards. Never shot it farther.

[TXGunNut]

Nice rifle, black mamba. Who makes the stock?

[robroy]

I finaly got back after it. Fifty rounds of new brass is now fireformed. I used the Thor and 48gr 3031 for the job. 40 0f the boolits were air cooled WW sized 359 and checked with Hornady checks. The other 10 were Hornady 200gr round nose on top of 50 grvains of 3031. The jacketed shot into 2 1/2" at 50 yds the boolits barely stayed on my 8x10 target backers. The dispersion of the lead rounds and (relatively) tight jacketed group suggests to me that I need to harden things a bit, so I'll either cast some more and water drop them or heat treat some of those already cast. I may get to the H4350 eventually as 35shooter and TXGunNut have suggested in other threads. Must try the Ranchdogs too.

I'm glad I installed the break and used the slip on recoil pad. I was too low on the bench and my big old frame just holds my shoulder in place to be kicked by that mule. My name is Rob and I'm recoil challanged.

[swheeler]

Black Mamba nice looking rifle, looks like a Butler Creek stock?

[TXGunNut]

I'm glad I installed the break and used the slip on recoil pad. I was too low on the bench and my big old frame just holds my shoulder in place to be kicked by that mule. My name is Rob and I'm recoil challanged. -robroy

I fixed the altitude thing, I'm 6'3" and shooting benches are designed for short people. I had an extra 2X6 lying around. I cut six pieces that were twice as long as they are wide. Laid two side by side and two more side by side, on top of and perpendicular to the first two. Clamped and screwed them together to make a block to put under the front rest. The other two I simply screwed together to put under the rear bag. Ugly as homemade sin but they work. Recoil is a lot less unpleasant when you're not leaning into it.

[35 shooter]

Glad your back at it robroy. Can't say for sure for anybody elses rifle but i had to heat treat my ww to get over 1800 fps. in my whelen. Nothing i tried worked until i did that, although others water drop and get good results. I've never tried that for my rifle. I put mine in the oven @ 465* for 1 hour and dunk in cold water.....works for me.
Now that you've got some cases formed, you'll probably start getting better accuracy. Looking forward to your whelen reports! If the weather clears some by Sunday i'll be starting load work with a noe 358009 clone. I was thinking of hiring TxGuNut to shoot the first ones for me just to see what his shoulder thinks about em. They do look a bit intimidating to a little feller now that i've got some loaded. I'm gonna carry some bricks with me.

[robroy]

I built this rest out of scrap plastic pipe and plate some years back. It keeps me high enough that my shoulder can move with recoil. A couple bags of beans wrapped in a towel fit in the saddle quite well and hold a rifle in place. I didn't have it in the truck yesterday so I had to improvise with my shooting bag, a hoody, and my bean bags.
104449

[35 shooter]

That is a nice looking rest.