Advice needed for longer range 38-55.

[Simonpie]

So I have been shooting at 200 yards and doing well. I tested at 300 and did fine also. Then, I went to a 300/600 yard match, did great at 300 and could hardly hit paper at 600. Now, it was a good gusty 30MPH wind, but still, something was wrong. So, what are some logical steps to get 600 yard stability out of a 38-55?

Paul Matthews says to use a short bullet at 1.2" length versus 1.36". Of course, he also says "...the 38-55 comes into its own with long heavy bullets."

My current load is:
40 gr 2F Old Eynsford
WLRM primer
.060 fiber wad
No Cookie
Lyman 378674 30:1 bullet.

Rifle: 14:1 twist.

Unfortunately, the only ranges I have available are 200, 300, 600 yard. It can be hard to tell if I'm almost there, or a hopeless case.

I know I can push it faster, but my groups open up as the powder load goes up. They go way off if I use FFF.

Any ideas are appreciated, but if the answer is too extreme, I'll just shoot a 45-70.

Thanks,
Simon

[Tom Myers]

Simon,

According to the data that I have on hand, The Lyman 378674 should be about 1.26" long and weigh about 330 grains when cast in 1/20 Tin/Lead alloy.

I use a modified algorithm that works well for calculating Black Powder muzzle velocities according to caliber, bullet wight, barrel length and a constant assigned to each powder.
The algorithm calculates that 42 grains of Olde Eynsford with a 330 grain bullet in a 32", 0.375 groove dia. barrel should give a muzzle velocity of approximately 1160 fps.

Using the Cast Bullet Design (http://www.tmtpages.com/draw/draw.htm) software which uses a velocity-modified version of the Greenhill formula to calculate twist rate, bullet length and optimum muzzle velocity values, the software suggest that your 1/14 twist barrel should stabilize a 1.26" bullet with a muzzle velocity of over 1240 fps which is well over 1160 fps

If you were to use a 1.2" bullet, it should cast out to about 300 grains and 42 grains of OE might get it going to around 1210 fps.
A 1/14 twist should stabilize a 1.2" bullet with a muzzle velocity 1130 fps which is well under the projected 1210 fps.

So, with those numbers, a slightly shorter bullet would give more velocity with the same powder charge and be more stable in the 1/14 twist.

Of course these are all just numbers, and they may not be all that accurate, but at least they show a trend and might give you some insight toward solving your problem.

Hope this helps.

[Chill Wills]

Kenny is exactly right about using more velocity to help the problem. Steve Garbe shot the 38-55 well in 2000 but had much trouble beyond turkeys (546 yard rams) both connecting and toppling rhen the conditions got rough. He moved up to a 38-50 Rem Hepburn and improved this.

I shot the 15 twist Badger 38-55 in 2001 and found that a 330 gr tapered bullet seated to allow 50.5gr swiss 2F drove the bullet fast enough to be accurate to the rams on the more calm days but in the 30 MPH winds you cited, I am not sure very many riflemen could do well. Make no mistake, you can compete with the 38-55 and have fun but you need to maximize the powder charge with a tapered bullet to seat it out far into the rifling and then the 14 twist allows for a 330 - 340 grain bullet - depending on design. And, it will still give up some (or alot) to the better ballistic coefficient bullets at higher velocity.
Keep in mind that it is better to shoot a stable short bullet in the wind than to shoot an unstable long bullet. In the second case, the instability of yaw negates the better Bc of the longer bullet. In other words, you don't get what you paid for.

Again, Kenny advice is the best answer, re-chamber.
In the event you can not at this time, Maximize with a best case bullet and larger powder charge. As accuracy goes with a faster velocity, you just have to work out the load - which should be possible.

I hope this help with some options.

Michael Rix

[Boz330]

I have had good luck with the Lyman scaled down Postel (335gr) in my 38-55 out to 600yd. I'm loading 48gr of 2F Swiss with a fair amount of compression. The twist is 1-15 Badger barrel.
With a 30MPH crosswind I'm not sure that any 38 is going to perform like the heavier calibers. The big problem is getting on to start with.

Bob

[Simonpie]

Thanks guys. It looks like my next match will be too soon to do much. I hope to get an idea if lighter wind is all I need. I should be able to try a shorter bullet the match after that.

Simon

[bigted]

guess we did not get the rifle you are shooting. don't know if this matters ... but cant hurt to know what the shootin iron is and the barrel maker.

[Simonpie]

guess we did not get the rifle you are shooting. don't know if this matters ... but cant hurt to know what the shootin iron is and the barrel maker.

It is a reline of a crusty old trapdoor barrel in full rifle length (not Cadet or Carbine). I used a liner from Track-of-the-Wolf. They have a few in 38-55. I used the only one with 14:1 twist. I'm not really sure who makes them. Chamber reamer came from Pacific Tool. It is already shooting better than my Pedersoli rolling block 45-70 with 5" groups at 200 yards. I know there's more in it with some load development, but I'm already pretty happy at the shorter ranges.

[bigted]

my my ... now I gotta ask for a couple pictures ... a 38-55 trapdoor ... that's gotta be a cool rifle. I have a GM #4 barrel from them in that same 14 inch twist ... it shoots easy 1 inch groups at 100 yards with either my Unertl or the long Malcolm style scope. most times I can put the holes touching each other at this range but using the newer smokless powder and a 220 grain bullet. this is reproduced using a 300 jaxeted bullet as well. this is all in a jap-owning frame 1885 and she be heavy for sure.

pictures of that relined trapdoor would be very nice. sights and extractor as well please.

[Simonpie]

I think these came through.

The front sight is just a standard Lyman Globe soldered onto a standard Trapdoor sight shroud. It keeps me from cutting the barrel and gets the globe up high which the rear sight needs to start.

The rear is a Lee Shaver long range. I don't need the long range, but I swap it between the rolling block. The brass bit ties into the action screws so I don't have to screw into the stock. There's no tang to speak of.

The extractor is the same shape as stock, but the little arm is full width instead of cut away like in a 45-70.

[bigted]

that is cool man. thankyou for the pictures and she looks like a hoot for sure. I really like the ingenuity on both the front and rear sights ... this shows thought and follow thru on a wanted/needed project ... congratulations. I see also a peek of what looks like the addition of a wooden pistol grip ... I have one of those grips but just have not given it a try on my own cut down springfield.

38-55 is a grand idea for a rusted out barrel to restore it into a shooter and I could not think of a funner chamber ... unless ... [smilie=1:

[armorer59]

Sweet looking set-up Simonpie! I re-barreled a crusty old Trapdoor for My son several years ago. Chambered it in .38-56. I tapered the barrel blank and set the barrel length to closely match an officers rifle. 26" or so. Also browned the barrel and left the original patina on the rest of the metal. Shoots very well and as soon as we get some good sights for it and a 300+ grain mold, plan on shooting some BPCS matches.

[McLintock]

While I agree wholeheartedly with going with the 38-50 Rem, which is what I did with my C. Sharps Hi Wall originally in 38-55, you can lengthen the chamber in the 38-55 for more powder capacity and resultant velocity. I took my Dave Manson 38-55 reamer and sent it back to Dave and he lengthened it so it would make a chamber for 38 Basic brass, which is 2.34" long if I remember right, for my Rolling Block. Can finally get up close to 55 grs of Swiss 1.5 in the case without excessive compression, under a Brooks 335 gr Creedmore bullet; not up to the 60 grs of the 38-50, but much more then a normal 38-55 chamber you see most often which is only 2.10" or so. Just a thought.
McLintock

[Simonpie]

While I agree wholeheartedly with going with the 38-50 Rem, which is what I did with my C. Sharps Hi Wall originally in 38-55, you can lengthen the chamber in the 38-55 for more powder capacity and resultant velocity. I took my Dave Manson 38-55 reamer and sent it back to Dave and he lengthened it so it would make a chamber for 38 Basic brass, which is 2.34" long if I remember right, for my Rolling Block. Can finally get up close to 55 grs of Swiss 1.5 in the case without excessive compression, under a Brooks 335 gr Creedmore bullet; not up to the 60 grs of the 38-50, but much more then a normal 38-55 chamber you see most often which is only 2.10" or so. Just a thought.
McLintock

So, would you expect the longer case of a 38 Basic chamber to shoot more accurately with a lot of powder than a 38-55 with a lot of powder? Right now my most accurate 300 yard load is 40 grains and almost no compression. Do you think the longer chamber/case would be more accurate with say 50 grains than the 38-55 case?
I don't think I'm going to do it, just trying to track the thinking.

[kokomokid]

Simon, where did you get the front sight? LB

[Simonpie]

The bottom half of the front sight is a standard issue US Army shroud. You can get them from Dixie gun works for about $20. The top is a "Lyman" style 17A from Lee Shaver. I picked a tall one because the funky plate I use to mount the rear sight lifts it up a bit, so a short front sight doesn't have enough range for close shooting. The trick however, is that the 17A sights are all flat bottom. You need to machine a scallop on the bottom to nestle on the shroud for solder contact. 5 minutes with a milling machine, impossible without one.

[Simonpie]

I remembered I should mention that there is a second type of shroud. It is sheet metal and pops over the barrel. I think this one would be too floppy to hold a sight. The kind you want is machined with a locking screw. They sometimes come without a screw, but it is a standard US thread.

[McLintock]

The thinking is that by going to a larger powder charge, you get more velocity and there's less time for wind and other variables to act on the bullet while it's in flight. That's why going to the 38-50 Remington or 38-56 works well at the longer ranges, less flight time, not any intrinsic gain in accuracy due to the case or cartridge combo when using the same bullet. Using a better design bullet or a heavier bullet which is longer and has a better ballistic coefficient, with the increased powder charge to drive it will also affect the accuracy in either case. If that's not right, hope somebody chimes in with better info.
McLintock

[missionary5155]

Greetings
A curious question... Anyone tried 3F ?
I understand the pressure differences may be too drastic for a 130 year old rifle. But most everyone is shooting new made very strong rifles so it would seem the somewhat higher pressure 3F produces would not be that detramental.
When up north last time there was a new repro 50-95 1876 waiting for me. There was no possible way to get enough Goex 2F into a case to get near the published 1440 plus fps origonal loadings were capable of. My best was 1285 with the absolute max of Goex 2F with only a creal box wad. Then I tried Goex 3F. 87 grains with the same wad and .10 compression yealded 1465 fps. That was far less compression I tried with 2F. At 200 yards there was slightly better accuracy. I did not have time to try at 300 as I had to pack to return and I do not view a 1876 lever rifle as a target rifle especially with a buckhorn rear. I replaced the garbage ladder sight it came with.
So anyway how about 3F or whatever the off shore powder equivalents are.
Mike in Peru

[Simonpie]

I had poor results with 3F. The assumption is either slumping nose or deformed/leaking base from the higher pressures. I did not try a reduced load or harder lead in 3F, which might be the magical answer. There always seems to be a magical answer just out of reach.

[missionary5155]

Good evening
I sure agree with that.. I have shot a caliber 43 Spanish for over 30 yeras off and on . A simple military Roller that has a good bore but way oversized throat and groove. First load I tried was near a case full of 2F, no wad and a HB 330 grain bullet that was .440 in diameter. I have yet to get another load that shoots as good. I am tempted to get a "heel boolit" made with a HB just to try another something. From 40-1 to water dropped WW. Heavier and lighter. .447 down to .439 (that was the absolute worst). I guess it is the challenge... Or just maybe the bottleneck !
Mike in Peru

[TXGunNut]

Re-read Excess650's post, Mike. Looks like he had good luck with FFFg.

[missionary5155]

Thanks TXGN I missed that post by Excess60. The more times I try 3F in applications where for years 2F was the perscription I am pleased with the results.
Mike in Peru

[TXGunNut]

Thanks TXGN I missed that post by Excess60. The more times I try 3F in applications where for years 2F was the perscription I am pleased with the results.
Mike in Peru

You're welcome. Do you think your experience is due to different brands or formulations of powder or some other factor? I'm still toying with the idea of assembling some "38-55" loads for my 375 Winchester. I'm thinking I'll need all the velocity I can get to be able to use the existing sights.

[Simonpie]

Well I had a baby step toward success. I picked up a Saeco 65571. This is a 300grain instead of the 336 I was using and is a round nose/flat point. It basically looks like my old bullet that somebody cut the nose off flat. I'd call it a semi wadcutter except there is a slight roundness to the cone. I was a bit worried because the grease grooves look small, and I was unable to lube the top one in my current sizer setup, but they didn't cause any problems. I may try a cookie later. Group size was a tad better than my old bullet at 300 yards. Velocity was about 25FPS higher. I still need to walk up my load a few grains to see what that does. My next 600 yard match is a ways off so it will be a bit before I get a real test.

Simon