.45 Colt case taper.

[Changeling]

The .45 Colt case (and others) has a taper to it that most if not all carbide dies do not take into account (If there's ones that do let me know). I have no idea whether the "STEEL" dies do or not, but don't think so.
I realized this and contacted REDDING DIES sometime ago, that I have been dealing with for years and described the problem to them and requested an answer.

Well I never received an answer! Then today I started looking again for a carbide die that corrected the problem, low and behold REDDING just came out with a die that does exactly what I contacted them about. they litterally stole the information without so much as a thanks or anything else. Prices are all over the place, from $80 to $150. plus.

If any of you guys have an idea about something discuss it OFFLINE with a friend and do not contact your trusted manufacture!!

REDDING is NO longer on my buy list for any of there products!:x

[William Yanda]

Seems like I have heard this discussion from the other side from Lee.

[C. Latch]

Honestly I don't think they stole your idea; maybe you were the billionth person to ask about this. I've heard this very issue mentioned online before; sounds like they finally took the hint.



OTOH, who needs carbide dies when you have bullet lube on every case?

[dilly]

So you addressed them with a concern about their product, they changed their offering and made the product available to you, and now you are upset?

If one wants to profit from one's ideas, he or she needs to be discreet and entrepreneurial. I would just be glad my desired dies are now available.

[stephenj]

So whar was the problem you have with sizing ..
Not taking the bulge out from a over generouse chamber or sizing to small?

Ive been using steel dies for a long long time with no issues ..

[M-Tecs]

Were can I find them for $80.00?

[BABore]

You can also just partial size them to a bit below where the base of the boolit will be seated to. Helps center the case in overly large chambers. No need for the tapered case.

[USSR]

You can also just partial size them...

Yep, simply no need to have your case holder touch the bottom of the sizing die.

Don

[MtGun44]

Some older steel dies were reported to be tapered properly.

Bill

[ReloaderFred]

SAAMI lists a straight wall on the .45 Colt as being .480": http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Colt.pdf

I can't find any official industry reference to a tapered wall on the .45 Colt case and I've been loading it for a long, long time. Can someone point me to an official reference to the .45 Colt having a tapered case wall?

Thanks in advance,

Fred

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Dave Skovill in his recent book "Colt's Single Action Army Loading and Shooting the Peacemaker" discusses this on pages 116 and 117 and mentions the new Redding two (2) carbide collar re sizer die. I've ordered a new steel die from RCBS a couple of months ago to see if it has the proper taper machined into it but it has been on back-order. I decided to try the steel die first for $22.00 before spending $100.00 on the dual ring Redding die.

I have five (5) Colt SAA's in .45 Colt and one .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk. If I full length re-size and shoot the rounds through the Colt's, I get a lot of split cases. I'm only loading 8.5 gr of Unique with a 454190. If I neck re size then my cases don't split. But the neck only re sized cases won't chamber in the Ruger. The neck sized cases fit in the Colt's chambers tight but then do fit and my brass lasts a lot longer.

Colt's chamber throats are oversized and many gunsmiths offer to re chamber cylinders to proper dimensions with tight cylinder throats at .452". I would do this but am sure that my Ruger only loads would have to be fired through the new cylinder. Then I'd end up with ammo that would fit in some Colt's but not others. What a bother. That's the way Colt's are made. Clearly the chambers are cut with a taper to afford reliable function in the combat conditions of dirt and dust and even black powder. Colt refuses to cut their cylinder chambers to tighter dimensions in spite of the urging of many influential gun writers, hence a re sizer die with a taper is what I have been looking for too for some time. Many shooters deal with this by just buying the .44 Special, that's what I did for decades.

[Changeling]

SJH, if you get any information on a die that compensates for the situation please send me a PM.

Bill, if you remember the maker of the die in question please do the same.

Thanks to both of you guys.

[opos]

I'm confused..but as an old guy that's just a common place for me...I've loaded .45 Colt for years....I've loaded J words and cast lead for years...I use Lee carbide insert dies as well as having used other dies in both steel and carbide insert (in times past) and somehow missed any reference anywhere to a taper in the .45 Colt cartridge. Apparently there is talk here of a taper to the case...I do not own an original Colt or a modern Colt..so if the "taper situation" deals only with the Colt or Colt clone revolvers then I guess I've just not confronted it.

Saami specs don't show a taper..and I'd really be interested in the reference point that specifies a taper..I shoot several Blackhawks in .45 Colt..I also have a couple of the older large frame Vaqueros in .45 colt....I also have a Pietta SAA clone in .45 Colt...I have had some tightness in a couple of the Rugers and had a couple reamed by Cylindersmith..the others were just fine and the Pietta has "oversize" throats as do many of the clones as I understand..I full length resize all my cases and have never had issues..I do load mostly mild loads (sometimes "cowboy" and sometimes just more gentle loads than full house loads)..I do, on occasion load hot loads just for enjoyment now and then.

I load 30 m1 carbine and that case has a definite taper..I load 44 special, 44 mag, 357 and 38 special with no taper and I'm really unsure what the taper reference in a 45 Colt pertains to..not trying to be a smart butt or pick a fight...just have no idea where the taper thing comes from..please help me understand with some published references....thanks
opos

[stephenj]

Opos

I think your confusion came from the same place as mine .

If i have figured it out properly ... it isnt taper made into the factory new casesu.

It is taper cut into the chamber and the resulting tapered caseys upon fireing

[dmize]

As the owner of 6 45 Colts. This sounds like a $100.00 answer to a non problem.

[opos]

Ok but is that "taper in the cases after firing" just confined to Colt revolvers and the clone SSA's? Have not experienced or heard of it in the Ruger Blackhawks or Vaqueros and lots of those get loaded for all the time.

[C. Latch]

Ok but is that "taper in the cases after firing" just confined to Colt revolvers and the clone SSA's? Have not experienced or heard of it in the Ruger Blackhawks or Vaqueros and lots of those get loaded for all the time.

My Blackhawk has loose chambers; my understanding is that this is a common problem.

I partially resize my cases, as referred to by others; they end up with a very slight bottleneck, almost like a 44-40 but much less obvious, and this disappears upon firing; the case swells to fit the chamber, then the partial resizing restores the bottleneck. I'd take a picture but it would be a waste with my lack of photography skills.

[enfieldphile]

Just be glad you don't work for a company that used an idea that may be an original idea. If you did and developed it ,on company time with company materials, it belongs to the company!
Just ask the woman who accidently discovered superglue on company time with company materials. She didn't get jack-squat.


So you addressed them with a concern about their product, they changed their offering and made the product available to you, and now you are upset?
If one wants to profit from one's ideas, he or she needs to be discrete and entrepreneurial. I would just be glad my desired dies are now available.

[DougGuy]

Ok but is that "taper in the cases after firing" just confined to Colt revolvers and the clone SSA's? Have not experienced or heard of it in the Ruger Blackhawks or Vaqueros and lots of those get loaded for all the time.

No that is SAAMI specs for the chamber that calls for it to taper. You wouldn't be able to get fired brass out of it very easy if it didn't have the taper. Not just for .45 Colt either, lots of straight walled pistol cartridges have tapered chambers per SAAMI specs.

[stephenj]

I guess im just lucky ... untold thousands of .45colts loaded
For a few differant revolvers and nary a problem .

But then again ive never over thought the colt ... load shoot repeat
If i lose a case or two here or there from a split ... who cares .
I cant even remember the last time i even found a split case

[ReloaderFred]

OK, for clarification then, the taper is in the chamber, not in the brass. SAAMI does show a taper for the chamber, but not for the brass, so asking a die manufacturer for something other than SAAMI specifications for the case is what we're talking about, right? The die would match the chamber, minus enough clearance for the loaded round to chamber properly, if I understand this discussion properly.

Fred

[opos]

Ok...got it...looked at the SAAMI chamber spec and there the taper spec is...but the cartridge drawing shows no taper...my thought is that the ammo manufacturers do not load a taper so the "45 Colt cartridge" is truly a straight wall case...and the chamber forces it into a taper for extraction aid..seems to me that with the allowable variations...just as with a shoulder case in a rifle..that "neck sizing" makes a cartridge "gun specific"...I have always just full length resized and eliminated any "gun specific" issues just as factory ammo does..Wouldn't the use of a taper sizing die tend to narrow the specs of a cartridge being usable across gun brands, specs, etc? This seems like an exercise for the perfectionist in the target shooting fraternity rather than something that would give much if any benefit to a guy like me that takes 4 or 5 revolvers to the range with a big box of reloads and plinks targets..I don't have any significant issue with splits and don't have issues with my loads (full length sized with a Lee die) being interchangible between guns..

[USSR]

Yes, it's the chamber which induces the case to become a tapered case. Personally, I got tired of reloading "wasp waisted" brass, so I sold my carbide dies and bought some steel dies, and then set up the sizing die so there is about 1/4" between the case holder and the bottom of the die. Simply no need to size down that far on the case, and it looks much better.

Don

[C. Latch]

Personally, I got tired of reloading "wasp waisted" brass, so I sold my carbide dies and bought some steel dies, and then set up the sizing die so there is about 1/4" between the case holder and the bottom of the die.



I have a steel sizer (Redding) that I never used because I insisted on having a carbide sizing die when I started loading for the .45 Colt.
Supposing that I switched to the steel die, what would it make my brass look like? Does it size less, leaving a gradual taper on the whole case, or what?

[smkummer]

I have read that post war 45 Colt dies took into account that reloaders and manufactures were now putting .451 diameter barrels and reloaders were using .451-.452 bullets. Some Pre-war Colts had the bigger bore of .454. What I was doing when I only had one post war Colt SAA; was to size with a carbide sizer only about 1/2 the was down the case. This ammo always fit back into the same SAA. Now that I have at least 5 post war Colts in 45 Colt, I fully size the case but I load with a cast bullet of .454 diameter and these guns all shoot so much better than the using .452 diameter bullets. As long as my ammo is loaded close to full factory pressures, the cases expand enough so as to not so sooty.

[USSR]

I have a steel sizer (Redding) that I never used because I insisted on having a carbide sizing die when I started loading for the .45 Colt.
Supposing that I switched to the steel die, what would it make my brass look like? Does it size less, leaving a gradual taper on the whole case, or what?

Yep, gradual taper of the case. Just set up your die so that it goes down far enough to "blend" into the web area.

Don

[Silver Jack Hammer]

USSR, What brand and approximate year is your steel sizer die?

When I full length re size with a carbide die and seat a .454" 454190 my cartridges look like Coke bottles. Actually my neck re sized cartridges look similar to .44-40 except the 454190 doesn't have tubular magazine friendly flat meplat, but they work in the Colt's.

[C. Latch]

Yep, gradual taper of the case. Just set up your die so that it goes down far enough to "blend" into the web area.

Don

I'll try that. All my brass is loaded, or at least resized, so I guess I'll have to shoot some more first. :-)

[44man]

It is not taper, it is the expansion ring at the bottom of the case that a normal carbide die does not reach. I neck size a lot but soon they will not chamber so I need to FL again. The Hornady dies always fix it. I have never split a case other then a split at the crimp and some of my cases have been shot 44 times. I just had to toss one case from my 1980 brass.
The new Redding dies will solve a problem that is not really there with the Colt unless chambers are large. It has a lower ring larger then the normal ring. Only to bump the expansion ring.
Long ago I found the tension problem with revolvers and then read a gun writer telling RCBS about the problem. The expander was wrong in the .45 Colt. RCBS fixed it but did not change other calibers. It is still wrong for the .44. It is more wrong in the Cowboy dies, made for soft lead.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

44Man, Expansion ring sounds like the proper term. It is a bulge .3" from the rim or base of the case. The carbide ring of the re sizer die is at the mouth of the die and does iron the expansion ring out if I full length re size. When I full length re size I get a lot of fired cases split with the split running the length of the case from the budge .3" from the base to the center of the case. This is when shooting with a Colt SAA. My neck re sized cases fit properly in my Colt's but full length re sized cases seem to rattle around very loose in the Colt. I really don't have a problem with cases splitting at the mouth.

I was neck re sizing some .45 Colt last night using an RCBS carbide die, on those cases bulge measures .485" when measured .3" from the base or rim of the case. SAMMI specs call for .480" at the base of the cartridge case and .4862" for the chamber measured .200" from the breech face.

My neck re sized cases measure .47" OD at the mouth on this Starline brass before seating. SAMMI specs call for .4806" chamber dimensions .10" from where the mouth of the case is positioned in the chamber. My loaded cartridges with a .454190 sized .454" wheelweight measure .475". This combination works for me in my Colt SAA's.

These neck re sized cartridges made for my Colt's .45 will not chamber in my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt but does chamber in my Colt's SAAs and the brass lasts.

Several buddies have Uberti 1873 rifles in .45 Colt and their bulges or expansion rings at base of their fired brass is more pronounced than on my Colt SAA's. We shoot at this annual match which requires two (2) rifles and four (4) pistols per stage. So we have several of these Uberti 1873 rifles in .45 Colt. Some of that brass looks awful after firing but I have not heard of the guys complaining of split cases, and I'm sure they full length re size because several of the guys use Ruger Vaquero's. I do not use the .45 Colt in cowboy matches, I use the .44 Special and have shot the .44 Special in Colt SAA for the majority of my life. My two (2) Cimarron 1873 rifles are .44 Special.

I picked up my first Colt SAA in the early 80's in .45 Colt only because I was talked into it but wanted a .44 Special. I didn't have it a year before I had it re calibrated to .44 Special. All the problems of the .45 Colt are solved by simply going to the .44 Special however I have really been enjoying messing around with loading and shooting the 45 Colt. It requires more steps at the loading bench which I did not have the patience for when I was younger.

I have not tried that new Redding die.

[USSR]

USSR, What brand and approximate year is your steel sizer die?

When I full length re size with a carbide die and seat a .454" 454190 my cartridges look like Coke bottles. Actually my neck re sized cartridges look similar to .44-40 except the 454190 doesn't have tubular magazine friendly flat meplat, but they work in the Colt's.

I'm now using a set of RCBS #19108 .45 Colt Steel Dies. Bought them slightly used so don't know when they were made, but they appear to be of recent manufacture. By the looks of how they resize, this die must size progressively more as a case further enters the die. The problem with a carbide die is, the carbide ring is at the opening of the die and sizes the case down to near the web area (which remains unsized) at the same size as the case mouth. Then, you seat the boolit which expands the case mouth and, voila, you have a wasp-waisted cartridge.

Don

[lar45]

Cases fired in my Blackhawk will not fit in my Seville. So I have to keep 2 sets of brass. I've been useing mostly the same Win cases since around 94 and have had very little loss on them with lots of hot loads through them. I do have some Starline and Top Brass cases that I've used also, but not near as long as the Win Brass.
To get the Ruger fired brass to chamber in the Seville, I had to full length resize in a steel 44AutoMag die to get the web back to the original size.
I wish the manufactures would cut the chambers to fit the factory loaded ammo that we have today.

[44man]

I had the same problem with brass fired in my SBH, none would chamber in the SRH I had unless FL sized.
The .45 seems to have even more variance in chamber sizes.

[Changeling]

Now it seems everyone realizes there is a "Problem with .45 dies".

Some have said that there are "(Steel) Die sets from manufactures" that size correctly! Steel dies are just a little more trouble to use then carbide
dies, no big thing!

Who makes them besides Redding's new gouging priced die?
I have no intention whatsoever of spending the rediculious amount they want for a die to correct a simple problem that they should have corrected in the first place with a simple steel die, they are supposed to be in the business of producing quality handloading dies for the 1000's that reload there own ammunition, what a joke!
Nor will I be buying there products any more, I simply can't stand a company intent on gouging the very people that made them!

[44MAG#1]

I use 45 Colt dies. Load for Ruger and S&W handguns and never had a problem. Light to heavy loads.
Anticipate loading many more without problems.
I do like Lee carbide size dies but that's it.

[Changeling]

I have a steel sizer (Redding) that I never used because I insisted on having a carbide sizing die when I started loading for the .45 Colt.
Supposing that I switched to the steel die, what would it make my brass look like? Does it size less, leaving a gradual taper on the whole case, or what?

I have the steel Redding dies also. That was another of the questions I asked Redding, Received NO answer!

[Wally]

I bought a used (looks like they where never used) RCBS steel Sizer .45 Colt die (made in 1975) ..and it has a very pronounced taper. I prefer a carbide sizer, but this one sizes cases less, so they fit better in my Ruger Blackhawk... No big deal to lube, size, & wipe off the lube.

Later I found a like new RCBS .45 ACP steel sizer die...it too tapers the case unlike a carbide sizer die..however I don't think in the .45 ACP this makes all that much difference.


Some older steel dies were reported to be tapered properly.

Bill

[USSR]

I bought a used (looks like they where never used) RCBS steel Sizer .45 Colt die (made in 1975) ..and it has a very pronounced taper. I prefer a carbide sizer, but this one sizes cases less, so they fit better in my Ruger Blackhawk... No big deal to lube, size, & wipe off the lube.

+1. Yes, if you've ever worked with small handgun cases, lubing and then wiping off the large .45 Colt cases is not a chore at all.:grin:

Don

[JRR]

I have used the RCBS STEEL dies since about 98. They definitely have the appropriate taper. Excellent mouth tension and then a gradual taper to the base. Starline brass with over 20 reloads. New Starline brass is NOT tapered. Hornady spray on lube, then size and de-cap and then into the case cleaner machine. No rattle in the chamber, excellent accuracy, even in a Win 94 with it's lose chambers.

[Airman Basic]

Guess I'm the odd man out. Using Lyman 45 Colt carbide die set and 200 Remington and Winchester cases, all bought over 30 years ago and shot in several revolvers over those years. Lost a few but the others soldier on.

[WinMike]

Just be glad you don't work for a company that used an idea that may be an original idea. If you did and developed it ,on company time with company materials, it belongs to the company!
Just ask the woman who accidently (sic) discovered superglue on company time with company materials. She didn't get jack-squat.

Totally irrelevant to the OP, which is a complaint about a company that had the audacity to meet the market's perceived need. Now, despite the OP not creating nor fabricating nor marketing diddly-squat he somehow feels entitled to......what??!! :veryconfu :? :veryconfu