.38-56 WCF 1886 Discussion

[Just Duke]

Any reason why one couldn't get 2000 fps with a 250 grain bullet out of a Current production Winchester 1886?
The 38-55 Will barely make 1400 fps so that's why I'm asking
I have know problem having a 45-70 barrel sleeved to this caliber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38-56_WCF

.38-56 WCF and a 30-30
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/.38-56_WCF_and_.30-30_Winchester.jpg/333px-.38-56_WCF_and_.30-30_Winchester.jpg

[longranger]

.375 Win. pretty well covers that niche with cast or jacketed,pressures might be up there for .38-56 to go that fast.

[Chill Wills]

The old HV (high velocity) factory loading for the 38-55 in the 1894 Winchester ran in the 1800 feet per second range. It was safe in the Marlin too. This was loaded for a while and then discontinued almost 100 years ago.

As said above, the big bore ’94 covers this as well as does other type rifles but I am sure you have your reasons. So …..I think the larger case volume of the 38-56 Winchester paired with a slower powder in a lined rifle could produce that velocity at 1886 pressure. BUT, that is a guess and would require a pressure barrel or transducer to really know if you are on safe ground. For me, it makes for a better conversation than a project. I have an old 1886 Win – 38-56 which I load from known tested data and I find it great for all I require of it.

Just my thoughts….

[xtimberman]

I realize that it's not quite ".38" caliber, but have you thought about finding a 1895 in .35 WCF? Rifles chambered for this cartridge are not nearly so popular as the legendary .405 WCF...but the .35 WCF is a powerful...and more useful cartridge for most shooting and hunting situations - much friendlier to shoot, too. Buffalo Arms has brass and various moulds are available for you to well exceed that 2000fps threshold.

Should you ever part with the project, having magnumized .38-56 cartridges floating around the marketplace sort of freaks me out.... Most of us on this 'site would never fire someone else's hand loads, but other folks...........

[Just Duke]

I realize that it's not quite ".38" caliber, but have you thought about finding a 1895 in .35 WCF? Rifles chambered for this cartridge are not nearly so popular as the legendary .405 WCF...but the .35 WCF is a powerful...and more useful cartridge for most shooting and hunting situations - much friendlier to shoot, too. Buffalo Arms has brass and various moulds are available for you to well exceed that 2000fps threshold.

Should you ever part with the project, having magnumized .38-56 cartridges floating around the marketplace sort of freaks me out.... Most of us on this 'site would never fire someone else's hand loads, but other folks...........

I saw in another post where you said you own the rifle .38-56. You have one. I would like to have one also. Respectfully of course. I can make the brass also.

[Just Duke]

Respectfully guys I would like to keep this thread on topic and not have it turn into:

Customer at a restaurant: I would like to order a steak medium well done and mash potatoes and gravy.
Waiter: No! what you want is the house meat loaf and green beans.

[xtimberman]

I saw in another post where you said you own the rifle .38-56. You have one. I would like to have one also. Respectfully of course. I can make the brass also.

I hear you. I'd like to have examples of rifles for each cartridge that was offered in the Model '86 to tinker with and shoot.

I'm another one who is concerned that 2000fps is beyond the safe limits of .38-56.

[Just Duke]

I hear you. I'd like to have examples of rifles for each cartridge that was offered in the Model '86 to tinker with and shoot.

I'm another one who is concerned that 2000fps is beyond the safe limits of .38-56.

I see these some fellas load Marlin 1895's to 1800fps with 500 grain bullets like wise with the 1886. The 356 Winchester shoots a 250 grainer at 2200 and that's factory http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/lever-action-rifles-sponsored-by-henry-repeating-arms/the-356-winchester-greatest-lever-caliber-of-'em-all/

[Clay M]

The 86 is a strong action.The new guns with heat treated steel are very strong. I had an old original 86 in .38/56 and it was a fun gun to shoot and hunt with. My goal was always accuracy and I never intended to push the limits on speed. That has been over twenty five years ago, and I don't have any of the loading data I used.

[lar45]

Sounds like a job for QuickLoad.
Guessing at a 24" bbl and a Lyman 248gn boolit
45gns of 3031 should give you around 2220fps @ 33.6k psi -- 100% load density
A 20" bbl would be more like 2130fps

What is the pressure limit of a new 1886 in 45-70? 45k or more?
The 38-56 looks like a necked down 45-70 to me.

[Just Duke]

The 38-56 looks like a necked down 45-70 to me.

It is at that. Thanks for the info Lars. And the bullet Lube.

[Clay M]

I do remember the bore on my rifle was .380 I had a .378 mold enlarge to work for the rifle. I looked for that mold in recent times ,but figure I must have traded it off somewhere along the line. I will try to look and see if I can find any of the old data I used.

[ammohead]

At least if you have a bbl lined and cut a custom chamber you can avoid the issue of the neck/throat being too tight for the groove diameter that was so often found with the older black powder winchester cartridges. Trying to achieve higher velocities with boolits that rattle down the bore is difficult. May want to remember this when cutting the chamber.

[KirkD]

I think your goal might be doable, especially since you are talking about a modern 86 action. The Quickload estimate is valuable information above. In addition to that, I see that Clyde Williamson published the following load for use in an original (weaker) 1886 ...

Barnes 255 grain bullet over 42 grains of 4895 for 1,980 fps

Also, Ken Waters published a H.V. load for use in an original 1886 as follows ...

220 Hornady flatnose over 38 grains of H-335 for 1,950 fps

Now those two published loads were for original 1886's. The modern ones are much stronger, although I do not know the effect that sleeving has, but your goal certainly seems very reasonable with a slow powder like IMR 4895, assuming you can stuff enough in there to get the velocity you want. If not, you might have to drop down to a slightly less-slow powder. I don't have Quickload, but I sure wish I did.

[Bob Busetti]

Don't see why you can't get 2000 out of one. Only reason I got rid of mine was the barrel was shot. There was an article a long time ago that listed such loads, even some ones version of the 38/56 improved in an 86 & Siamese mauser.
Bob