Deadly fumes from 4895????????

[leadhead]

Hey Guys,
I have a 8# jug of 4895 that I bought a year or so ago, and have
noticed it is emitting what apears to be nitric acid fumes. It has
condensated on the lid and formed a clear liquid on top of the jug.
This is a standard black powder jug that powder normaly comes in.
There is thick orange/ yellow fumes (vapor) that come from the jug
when it is opened. What the hell is this? I hate to throw it away.
Has anyone else ever had this happen? I can't remember where I
bought it from, but I think from somewhere in Tenn.
What do you think I should do with this stuff?
Thanks for any info,
Denny

[bushka]

the way you describe it,I`d toss it,especially if theres liquid in the powder.
water in the jug maybe?
if it dont smell like other powder you have,its bad.
good powder has a slight solvent smell,but not acidic or noxious.
you say you see fumes of orange? that aint right,its old powder,dont know where its been before you.

[leadhead]

If you dump some of it out, it looks like any other powder.
It's not wet, the vapors just form a liquid on the outside
of the jug where the cap screws on.
Denny

[wiljen]

Use it to fertilize your lawn, thats all its good for now.

[454PB]

Sounds just like the symptoms I've seen in IMR powders that have gone bad.

[Ricochet]

The red fumes are nitrogen dioxide. That's what you get when nitrocellulose decomposes. When it gets to this state, the stabilizer in the powder (diphenylamine, which absorbs the nitrogen oxides) has all been used up. The nitrogen oxides, nitrous and nitric acids catalyze further decomposition and that also releases heat which speeds up the reactions. If the powder's stored in a bulky enough amount that can't dissipate its heat, the temperature will climb until the powder self-ignites. Lots of warships, magazines, arsenals and ammo dumps have blown up this way.

[grumpy one]

According to what I've read this is the standard end-condition for powder that has lost all of its ether due to time, temperature and ventilation. When any nitric acid smell can be detected, the powder has become unusable and should be disposed of safely.

Ricochet has just given a better explanation of the same outcome - sorry for cross-posting.

[Shiloh]

Where did you purchase this and how was it stored?? Is this new powder or purchased from a secondary source such as estate or garage sale?? One never knows the storage history of second or third hand powder.

There have been train-loads of surplus 4895 that were sold for decades that was and is still quality, serviceable propellant. The difference is storage conditions. Cool and dry with relatively consistent temperatures is ideal. Extreme or rapid temperature fluctuations over time will deteriorate powder. Deteriorated year old powder sounds like there is some other variable in the equation.

Shiloh

[biggome]

The exact same thing happened to me!

I once got a killer deal (I thought) on 2000 rounds of Spanish 7x57 ammo mfg in 1929. After the first three rounds I tried all had some degree of hang fire I gave up on it and pulled it down for the powder and bullets. The powder was little flat squares and it didn't meter very well though I used it for a year or two with good results in mild cast loads for 30/30, 30/06 and of course 7x57.

Then it happened! I looked in my powder stash and noticed the big jug I had the Spanish pulldown powder in had a clear liquid leaking from the cap. I knew this was not good and I carefully took the jug outside and and opened it and bronze colored fumes came out for quite a while. After an hour or so I poured the powder out and threw a match on it. I took quite a while to burn up, there was a lot of powder left from the 2000 rounds I pulled down.

I then got to wondering about the hundred or so 7x57 rounds I had loaded up in new RP cases with the Spanish powder. A quick inspection showed many rounds had green funk around the case mouth and bullets and several had green lines in the shoulder area from what must have been microscopic cracks in the brass because when I wiped them off I could still see the tiny cracks. I had a lot of this brass fail in the neck and shoulder area when first fired and now I knew why, IT WAS JUNK!

I learned several lessons; don't buy ancient ammo regardless of price, don't buy RP brass and CHECK YOUR POWDER REGULARLY!

I don't want to know what would have happened if I had not discovered my rotten powder when I did. I now look at (and smell) my stocks of pulldown WC-820 and 4895 as well as any of my old powders to make sure none of it has gone bad on me.

Paul

[454PB]

Has anyone had a ball powder go bad? I have not, and have never heard of anyone else reporting they had. I once used up a can of Unique that my grandad gave me, and it was at least 50 years old. It looked and performed just like new Unique

The only powders I've had to pitch were IMR.....4198 and 4064. In fairness, the 4198 was given to me and may not have been properly stored. The 4064 was bought new by me, still had the paper seal on the can, and had been stored in the same manner with all the rest of my powder. When opened, it exhibited the same symptoms you decribed.

[9.3X62AL]

+1 for not reading or hearing of ball powders or flake powders "going bad". I'm sure they can, I just haven't been exposed to the info.

One of the few truly good things about living here in the southern third of the People's Republic of California is its dry, warm climate--a thing not lost on the zillions of Rust Belt Refugees who emigrate here to dodge snowdrifts and glare ice. It's all the fault of the Rose Parade......but I digress. The dry climate preserves smokeless powder VERY well, and rust on firearms is almost a non-issue. Politicians are the principal threat to firearms and reloading components in the PRC.

I would be VERY reluctant to use that 4895 for anything but lawn fertilizer.

[Ricochet]

It's not moisture that deteriorates smokeless powder, it's heat. Keep it cool and it'll last a long time.

[2400]

Hey Guys,
I have a 8# jug of 4895 that I bought a year or so ago, and have
noticed it is emitting what apears to be nitric acid fumes.

What do you think I should do with this stuff?
Thanks for any info,
Denny

I'd suggest you call IMR or Hodgdon depending on who's 4895 this is and ask them. You should have the lot number on the jug so call them and put the ball in their court. See if they'll replace the powder for you, 8#'s is a bunch of money just to throw away.

[leadhead]

2400, I'd sure like to, but this was military surplus stuff and I'm sure not going to
try and sue the govenment.
Denny

[Shiloh]

2400, I'd sure like to, but this was military surplus stuff and I'm sure not going to
try and sue the govenment.
Denny

I'm still curious. Where'd it come from??

Shiloh

[leadhead]

I really don't remember. I was one of those places where if you buy 32 lbs (4 jugs )
mix or match, they would pay the hazmat charges.
Denny

[fatelvis]

I was wondering where it came from also. Especially since I'm looking to buy 8lbs. of IMR4895!

[2400]

2400, I'd sure like to, but this was military surplus stuff and I'm sure not going to
try and sue the govenment.
Denny

Who did you buy the powder from? I'd let them know what is going on with the powder you bought so they can check any powder they have left from that lot.
I never said anything about suing anyone, let alone the govt. :confused:

[AllanD]

The exact same thing happened to me!

I once got a killer deal (I thought) on 2000 rounds of Spanish 7x57 ammo mfg in 1929. After the first three rounds I tried all had some degree of hang fire I gave up on it and pulled it down for the powder and bullets. The powder was little flat squares and it didn't meter very well though I used it for a year or two with good results in mild cast loads for 30/30, 30/06 and of course 7x57.

Then it happened! I looked in my powder stash and noticed the big jug I had the Spanish pulldown powder in had a clear liquid leaking from the cap. I knew this was not good and I carefully took the jug outside and and opened it and bronze colored fumes came out for quite a while. After an hour or so I poured the powder out and threw a match on it. I took quite a while to burn up, there was a lot of powder left from the 2000 rounds I pulled down.

I then got to wondering about the hundred or so 7x57 rounds I had loaded up in new RP cases with the Spanish powder. A quick inspection showed many rounds had green funk around the case mouth and bullets and several had green lines in the shoulder area from what must have been microscopic cracks in the brass because when I wiped them off I could still see the tiny cracks. I had a lot of this brass fail in the neck and shoulder area when first fired and now I knew why, IT WAS JUNK!

I learned several lessons; don't buy ancient ammo regardless of price, don't buy RP brass and CHECK YOUR POWDER REGULARLY!

I don't want to know what would have happened if I had not discovered my rotten powder when I did. I now look at (and smell) my stocks of pulldown WC-820 and 4895 as well as any of my old powders to make sure none of it has gone bad on me.

Paul

Paul,

Uhhh... what exactly did your powder degradation acid event destroying a bunch of R-P cases have to do with the quality of R-P cases?

If powder "went bad" like that in Lapua cases do you really think the results
would have been any different?


AD

[PatMarlin]

I just read in an old gunrag last night that claimed some Military powders went bad due to shortcuts used during the manufacturing process to meet military demand in some instances.

[biggome]

Quote:
"Paul,

Uhhh... what exactly did your powder degradation acid event destroying a bunch of R-P cases have to do with the quality of R-P cases?

If powder "went bad" like that in Lapua cases do you really think the results
would have been any different?


AD"

Yes and no Allan, yes, the brass would still be ruined and no, the brass was bad to begin with. As I stated, many of the R.P. cases of this batch failed in the neck or shoulder area the first time they were fired. This happened just after loading with and without the use of the rotten powder in both a Brazilian '98 and a commercial Santa Barbara. I had far better luck out of cases made out of 30/06 blank brass (which I now know is a big NO NO!).

The rotten powder didn't create the microscopic cracks in the neck and shoulder area it only allowed me to see the cases that were going to fail before they actually did.

I have seen overly-hard batches of brass most of which has been R.P. in both rifle and straight walled pistol cases over the years as well as way-too soft brass such as S&B which require trimming after every firing even though the loads are kept down to a dull roar. One never knows until they try any particular batch so be careful and never assume from the past.

I don't have anything personally against R.P. or their products, hell, you just gotta love a company that will sell you factory 158 gr. LSWC .357 Mag. ammo that will lead all 6.5" of your 'ole three screw Blackhawk's barrel with only half a box!

Paul

[Molly]

Old - not BAD - gunpowder tends to decompose due to traces of nitric acid that catalyzes the decomposition and generates more nitric. The brown fumes you report are very characteristic of such problems. The fumes and the nitric are what attacked the brass cases. It was not the fault of the cases in any way, shape or manner, but once they have been attacked, i'd strongly recommend that you smash them with a hammer (to prevent someone from scrounging them) and pitch them. Think of it as cheap medical insurance.

[Junior1942]

Get yourself a used but operable frost-free refrigerator and store your powder and ammo and primers in the fridge and freezer sections. It'll all stay in a cold and low humidity environment. When you need to remove something, don't open it and let it slowly come to room temperature.

When I take something out of the freezer section, I put it in the fridge section for an hour or two at least. When I take something out of the fridge section, I wrap a towel around it for even slower warm-down, and I set it on my loading bench for at least two hours.

[biggome]

Quote: "The fumes and the nitric are what attacked the brass cases. It was not the fault of the cases in any way, shape or manner,"

Hmmm, somehow I can read my entire post yet it seems others can't.

Once again, this particular lot of brass had failures in the neck/shoulder area on the first firing in two different rifles regardless of what powder it was loaded with.

It's failure can't be blamed on bad powder that was never within 10 feet of it much less loaded into it now can it?

All of the brass that had been exposed to the rotten powder was tossed into the trash. I suspect that if I can find some of it that I never got around to loading I could do an accurate measurement and find that it was indeed undersize (shoulder pushed back too far) as well as being too hard which would explain why it would be prone to first fire failure. The brass has a rather odd color and seems kind of "grainy".

Paul

[Maven]

454 PB asked, "Has anyone had a ball powder go bad?" Yes, I had this happen to the last 1/2 pound (approx.) of WC 860 that I bought from Hi Tech years ago: Sour, pungent odor, slight discoloration, but no fumes. Btw, it was stored in a cool, dark place from the time of delivery until I tossed what was left of it.

[AllanD]

Quote: "The fumes and the nitric are what attacked the brass cases. It was not the fault of the cases in any way, shape or manner,"

Hmmm, somehow I can read my entire post yet it seems others can't.

Once again, this particular lot of brass had failures in the neck/shoulder area on the first firing in two different rifles regardless of what powder it was loaded with.

It's failure can't be blamed on bad powder that was never within 10 feet of it much less loaded into it now can it?

All of the brass that had been exposed to the rotten powder was tossed into the trash. I suspect that if I can find some of it that I never got around to loading I could do an accurate measurement and find that it was indeed undersize (shoulder pushed back too far) as well as being too hard which would explain why it would be prone to first fire failure. The brass has a rather odd color and seems kind of "grainy".

Paul

No I read your whole post and I saw you mention "what must have been microscopic cracks..." but you probably have never heard of corrosion stress cracking.

Under some corrosion situations the metal will not simply corrode
but shrink as it's corroding and the stress from that produces cracks

I've had a batch of remington brass crack also.
It was OLD loaded ammo (old enough to come in Red and green boxes)

Actually the ammo was older than I was at the time I aquired it.

I've had other brass that shared a shelf with a rotary oscillating fan
and the dust on the blades of the fan and the vibration on the shelf
vibration hardened the brass... but that was WW brass... 264Win
cases to be specific.

I had a bunch of other 25-06 cases (also WW) that were recent mfg at the time I got them yet 50% cracked at the neck shoulder junction on their first firing.
while out of 25-06 cases I FORMED from virgin 30-06 cases I lost ONE case to a neck-shoulder junction crack and that was after four full power firings.
the rest lasted 20 firings before I finally tossed them (along with the barrel I burned out with them)

I don't automatically assume that a particular product is junk based on such scanty information.

And while it's true that the bulk of my commercial brass is remington, but that's mostly because remington brass is simply more common in most of the chamberings I shoot.

Given a choice to replace all my brass with virgin brass I'd get Federal brass
but most times I get Remington or winchester because it's available.

I also don't make a judgement of brass based on dented case mouths and other mechanoical dammage that is invariably incured in transit AFTER it is out of the manufacturer's control....

Should I blame Remington, Winchester, federal, Norma or Lapua for rough handling in the stockrooms or wharehouses of Midway, Cabela's or Natchez?

I was objecting to a blanket statement against a product, when my experience
differs somewhat.

[biggome]

No Allan, I was not aware of the possibility of corrosion stress cracking loaded brass cases.

I do know the 200 or so rounds of 30/30 ammo I had loaded with the soon to be rotten powder at about the same time I loaded the 7X57 ammo didn't suffer the same fate, there were no "green lines" indicating cracks in the neck/shoulder area just a bit of green funk around the case mouth on quite a few of them, and yes I realize it is like comparing "apples and oranges" as far as case shape goes.

I have some 222 Rem. brass from the 50's that has been reloaded way, way, too many times without any failures, I should have scrapped it long ago since I refuse to use them anymore. Though the brass had an easy enough life being only reloaded with a Lyman 310 tong-tool so it never got more than neck sizing and was never pulled over an expanding button it none the less required several trimmings to keep them within specs. I would have figured the necks would have eventually work hardened and cracked to signal their need for retirement though they still look fine. Wanna take a guess of the headstamps of these "wonder cases"? Two boxes are Norma and two boxes are Rem UMC, none of them had ever been annealed yet both had been exposed to some early '60s hightech chemical cleaning a time or two, it must have been properly made to begin with or I was just really lucky.

I have had short case life with R-P cases in low pressure applications such as light 44 Special loads where as all other brands seem to live forever. I too have ended up with a lot of R-P brass due to it being available when other brands were not and it has almost always been the only brand of brass to ever fail which is why I now prefer to purchase (or form from) other brands if at all possible.

Paul

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

biggome, I had a can of 4064? go bad under admittedly poor storage conditions, the can had literally collapsed into rust flakes around the powder. As best I can remember the powder was stored about 15 years.
In another location in the same storage, were 15 loaded 22-250 cases and about 30 fired cases, the loaded cases have green/white streaks on the necks and shoulders, all cracked. Some of the bullets I removed with my fingers, the case broke away from the bullet, the bullets were heavily corroded on the base, and under the streaks, with powder grains stuck to the base of some.
The fired cases were fine, no corrosion!
Unfortunatly I can not document that they were loaded with the 4064?, but 2+2 usually = 4, so I'd say that is what went wrong.
Nick

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

I have a lot of commercial and surplus powder, some of which is very, very old. I have always stored it in my basement, and I have never had any go bad. So far, anyways. Knock on wood.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[454PB]

454 PB asked, "Has anyone had a ball powder go bad?" Yes, I had this happen to the last 1/2 pound (approx.) of WC 860 that I bought from Hi Tech years ago: Sour, pungent odor, slight discoloration, but no fumes. Btw, it was stored in a cool, dark place from the time of delivery until I tossed what was left of it.

Yikes!!

I have several 8 pounders of that stored.

[afish4570]

About 25 yrs. ago I hustled a bargain (I thought it was) of 8# H4895 surplus in a card board container (like an oatmeal except metal top & bottom). Opne day I reached in for a camo flannel chamois shirt I got for my birthday a year earlier. When I pulled my arm into a sleeve it ripped...........Investigating the rest of the closet contents I disscovered all cotton fabrics had weaked and disintergrated whereever the air could get to the material......Stored in the back of the top shelf I discovered a 8# keg with the side completely disintergrated and the coat hangers and the metal keg (top & bottom tin) severly rusted.I carefully swept it up and burned it on the dirt driveway......Luckily no fire and the nitreous fumes disappated without killing me or my ex....Oh well....The subject powder was probably WW2 surplus and I knew it was quite antique when I bought it.:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:afish4570

[Ricochet]

I'd never thought of it disintegrating cotton cloth with the deteriorating powder fumes, but I've seen severe metal corrosion from nitrocellulose fumes.

A few years ago someone brought in to the music store a fine old Gibson electric guitar that had been left in its closed case for about 50 years. The nitrocellulose lacquer had spiderwebbed and alligatored extensively, but looked presentable. The celluloid (nitrocellulose) fake tortoiseshell pickguard had shriveled up into a pitiful mummy. All of the metal parts were rusty or covered with thick green verdigris from the nitrogen oxide fumes.

[jonk]

The day I pay good electricity to keep my powder in a fridge is the day they lock me up and send me to the nut house. If you live in a very hot, humid area with no A/C, then I'd say it is a great idea; but for most of us not worth it. The basement at my place is more or less a steady 68 year round either from the heater or cold air from the A/C sinking, and I have powder that I bought 10 years ago that is still fine; and surplus that is who-knows-how-old also fine, both 4895 and some ball types. I also have ammo- some as old as the 1930s (turk surplus 8mm) that is fine in said basement- just sitting in tins on shelves, some sealed, some opened.

I have come to the conclusion that while you can do things to encourage powder to break down, in the end there is no rhyme or reason- almost like atomic decomposition, half lives, etc., you can't predict when the parent material will spontaneously create a daughter material. :D

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

I'm with Jonk. I keep a lot of 8 pound jugs in my basement, some of it is well over ten years old, and I never had any deterioration that I could tell from sight or nose. I do have heat in the basement in the winter, but it is below 70 degrees, and in the summer I do run a dehumifier. That is all I do for the comfort of my powder and other metal things that can rust, and that has seemed to be satisfactory for more than 40 years of reloading.

My only concern is that I may have over 200 pounds of powder on hand, and if there ever is a fire, the place where I keep my powder will surely be one hot spot overhead. I could keep my powder outside in a detatched storage shed, but that would put the powder in an environment that has great fluctuations in temperature and humidity. I never had a house fire (knock on wood), so I think I will continue to assume the risk of my powder in my basement.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Miner]

How to check for deterioration:

Although modern smokeless powders are basically free from deterioration under proper storage
conditions, safe practices require a recognition of the signs of deterioration and its possible effects.
Powder deterioration can be checked by opening the cap on the container and smelling the contents.
Powder undergoing deterioration has an irritating acidic odor. (Don’t confuse this with common solvent
odors such as alcohol, ether and acetone.)
Check to make certain that powder is not exposed to extreme heat as this may cause deterioration.
Such exposure produces an acidity which accelerates further reaction and has been known, because of
the heat generated by the reaction, to cause spontaneous combustion.
Never salvage powder from old cartridges and do not attempt to blend salvaged powder with new
powder. Don’t accumulate old powder stocks.
The best way to dispose of deteriorated smokeless powder is to burn it out in the open at an isolated
location in small shallow piles (not over 1" deep). The quantity burned in any one pile should never
exceed one pound. Use an ignition train of slow burning combustible material so that the person may
retreat to a safe distance before powder is ignited. For more instructions call Hodgdon Powder.
Smokeless powder is intended to function by burning, so it must be protected against accidental
exposure to flame, sparks or high temperatures.
For these reasons, it is desirable that storage enclosures be made of insulating materials to protect the
powder from external heat sources.
Once smokeless powder begins to burn, it will normally continue to burn (and generate gas pressure)
until it is consumed.
D.O.T. approved containers are constructed to open up at low internal pressures to avoid the effects
normally produced by the rupture or bursting of a strong container.

[Huntducks]

I'm still shooting H-4831 bought in 1968 that was surplus WWII and Korea vintage that's how they got there start selling surplus powder 50lb drum shipped to your door for about $35-$40.

I did buy some surplus from a outfit in TN. some years back 4895 AA3100 and Bl-c2 can't remember there name saw a add in handloader but mine is all fine.

[cuzinbruce]

I have recently used old powder I had originally purchased in the late 1960's. Bullseye, SR4759, 4895. No problems, worked fine, no strange smells, no funny dust. Just sat in the original metal cans, as purchased, in a relatively humid ground floor room for 40 years or so. Cans had been opened when purchased so no seals.