Why Do Some Powders Have Dry Foul & Others Moist ?

[John Boy]

Exclude relative humidity and temperature ... what is in the powder that their foul is dry and others are moist?

[13Echo]

The Mad Monk did quite a bit of research on black powder manufacturing and quality. He found that the powders that shot "moist" had a small percentage of natural (not fence pole type) creosote in the charcoal that kept the fouling soft or "moist."

Jerry Liles

[bigted]

so I would guess that the powder made with different wood used for their charcoal would give the secret differences in the characteristics of "moist" or "dry n hard". this has been my question for awhile since I have read of accounts where the powder found in old cartridges was a very moist burning powder that required little or no fouling control. may just be the secret I have long sought after with a "no wipe load with blackpowder".

something IS different from the shooting of yesteryear and today's shooting with blackpowder. seems like one of the powder company's would investigate this and provide a powder that is moist and easy to remove ... thus providing us with a "shooting" powder that requires no control of the hard and accuracy destroying fouling we have today.

[John Boy]

He found that the powders that shot "moist" had a small percentage of natural (not fence pole type) creosote in the charcoal that kept the fouling soft or "moist."
Jerry, change the word small to large percentage and add also can be 'doctored' with acetone extracted charcoal... Bingo! You Get A Brass Ring!

Here's Bill Knight's post back in 2007 on The Open Range that detailed what is needed for a moist foul:

My buddy and I in Australia were discussing the "mit Nassbrand" thing back around 1987-88. We were working on charcoal at the time. He had sent me a box containing pieces of various woods he had collected near his house in NSW. He was planting willow trees around his pond.

He sent me a book that had been published by the forestry dept. of NSW. The book went into a great number of woods and how they were or could be used in the charcoal industry in NSW.
When they went into the subject of the fixed carbon contant of charcoal they wrote off the remaining portion of the charcoal as "tarry matter". In other words if you had a charcoal at 75% fixed carbon content the other 25% was simply what they called "tarry matter".

So I began to run extractions on different chars to see what this so-called "tarry matter" consisted of. I used a variety of solvents. Found out that the "tarry matter" concept was nonsense. But what I did find was that with acetone as the solvent I could extract something from some samples of charcoal. I quickly identified the extracted liquid as creosote. The form of creosote produced during the charring of wood.

The project then proceeded to look at the different woods traditionally used in black powder through the 19th century. Charring them under different conditions. I found that some woods produced more creosote than others and that charring conditions determined how much remained in the wood versus how much went out the vent stack on the charring cylinder. Out of that came the thing that the most desireable woods produced the most creosote.

Then I went back into the writings of Noble & Abel. Their charcoal chemical analyses. Specifically the amounts of hydrogen and oxygen in the charcoal samples. Their work showed that if the woods were charred at 300 C the amount of hydrogen and oxygen would be certain amounts. If the charring temperature was allowed to go to 350 C, or higher, the hydrogen and oxygen would almost disappear completely.

NONE of the old sources on powder manufacture in the 19th century went into the subject of any retained liquid hydrocarbons in the charcoal. All the sources pointed to some powder companies shooting for a certain fixed carbon content at a certain charring temperature but not why. They knew that for the best powder they had to prepare the charcoal by a certain method and not to deviate from it. But as to specific charcoal properties there was not much to be found. They went by physical appearance and how the charcoal sounded if you dropped a piece of it.

Then my Aussie buddy sent me something out of an explosives book published in England early in the 1900's. The writer talked about an acetone extractable liquid hydrocarbon, in the charcoal, that would speed up the combustion of the powder. He did not identify this liquid hydrocarbon as creosote. He gave his view of how the liquid hydrocarbon would work during powder combustion to speed up the combustion process.

So both my buddy and I played with adding creosote to a charcoal we thought to be sub-standard as far as good sporting powders go. Not the creosote from the hardware store. We had to char wood and then extract the creosote from it to "doctor" other charcoal.

In our experiments we found that the creosote made the difference between a "moist-burning" powder and one that burned dry. Meaning no water as a product of combustion.


Not letting it rest at that point.
When the Swiss came on the market I had known for years that it was a moist-burning black powder. I had their specifications and charring methods in my files for some years.
So I set up an experiment. I took several ounces of Swiss 2Fg and placed it in a jar with acetone. Left it soak in the acetone for 30 minutes and then decanted off the acetone. Air dried the powder to remove any remaining acetone and then dried the powder in the oven at 130 F.
Then headed to the range on another day. Shot the Swiss from the can and then that which had been acetone extracted. The Swiss from the can burned moist. Nice soft wet bore fouling. When I shot the acetone extracted powder it shot dry. Hard to tell the bore fouling apart from that of GOEX.
Funny part was that I was shooting over the chronograph. The powder that had the acetone extracted was only 20 fps slower than that from the can. That was shooting in the range of 1600 fps out of the .50 patched ball rifle.
That told me that the acetone did not really play any part that speeded up powder combustion. It simply provided water as a product of combustion to give the moist burn.


Nowhere in any of my old powder plant records was there ever any mention of charcoal specifics relating to moist burning powders.

[13Echo]

I remember the post. However I think the overall percentage of creosote in the Swiss powder was on the order of 2 to 5%. It would seem that Goex may have rediscovered this as they have changed the charcoal making process and OE seems to burn very moist. Wonder if they consulted with Bill?

Jerry Liles

[Don McDowell]

I seriously doubt they consulted with Bill..
Hogdons owns enough of the old line powder companies now, they most likely have the recipes for every powder ever built in the US. I suspect OE is probably pretty close to what the ODG's used when you read the equipment lists at Creedmoor. We're most likely shooting what would pass for Lafflin and Rand or Hazards rifle powder.

[John Boy]

Jerry - Swiss a moist burning foul powder contains approximately 8% creosote by weight in their charcoal. This is obtained from the Alder Buckthorn during the charring process by not allowing the charcoal to exceed 320 degrees Centigrade. If the charcoal temperature exceeds 350 degrees - the creosote will flash off
In addition, the Swiss Alder Buckthorn charcoal has a fixed carbon content of about 65%.

As for Goex, specifically Olde E' ... I doubt very seriously that Hodgdon consulted directly with Biil and had knowledge of Bill's experiment unless that read it on The Open Range because Bill never published this experiment in his writings except on TOR.

Did Hodgdon/Goex start reading into the writings of Noble & Abel? Could be. Also when Goex was at Moosic, I know the they were were experimenting to produce moist burning powder which never came to be. If Goex did do their homework about creosote - they might have required their charcoal subcontractor to rigidly hold the charring process between 300 to 320 Centigrade. Also have they changed the wood for their charcoal that contains a higher sugar content with a higher fixed carbon content?- this I doubt ... probably still using yellow maple

Whatever they did, which they will never disclose .... Olde E' is a moist burning powder

[kootne]

So how long is this "moist" aspect of OLD EYNESFORD retained after firing? Probably all are familar with a blow tube and giving the rifle mouth to mouth recesitation between shots. After a barrel is hot that moisture won't stay there very long. Does the OLD EYNESFORD fouling stay "moist" after it sets in a hot barrel a while?
kootne

[Don McDowell]

kootne, the fouling on Olde Eysnford is probably more non existant than it is "soft". At any rate I have fired 50 rounds of paper patch thru a 45-70 over the period of 2-3 hours and never used anything but a blow tube for fouling control and never wiped the barrel until the session was over. Accuracy stayed well enough for the last 8 rounds, 100% hits for 2 shooters (4 shots each) on the 350 yd bucket at the Quigley. With the barrel sights.
Anybody that gives OE on honest try is pretty impressed with the stuff. But there are some that will never give it a real try, yet build post counts trashing it and everything Goex does...

[kootne]

Thanks for the info, Don. I should probably get a case, even though I'm probably at the limit prescibed by law. I could store the surplus at my son's.
I don't have the first can I ever bought but do have the second. It was imported by Hogdons from Scotland. Bought it from the Powderhorn Sporting Goods store in Bozoville, Mt. probably over 40 years ago. Shot it up long ago but decided to start my own can collection.
Any powder/load that burns complete enough to leave minimal fouling has went a long way toward accurate shooting. My goal is the accurate load that doesn't require blowing.
kootne

[13Echo]

I used to correspond with him and have a CD from him with his articles from several years ago. Billused to consult for powder companies. Elephant comes to mind. He was well known in the industry so I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't called in, however, I wouldn't discount the abilities of the chemists and propellant engineers that Hodgdon has on staff. Also if the charcoal has 8% creosote by the time you add saltpeter and sulfur the percentage of creosote in the final product is considerably decreased, but still significant. Still, however they did it, it is nice to finally get a domestic, moist burning, apparently superior powder.

Jerry Liles

[Texantothecore]

After I get my powder operation going I am going to take a really close look at modifying my charcoal making operation to make moist powder. I am using Cedar (Eastern and Western) and at first I mistakenly covered the grill with the lid and it is heavily coated with what appears to be creosote. I am going to have to run some tests.

Oh and by the way, thanks for mentioning the acetone for use as an extractor as my grill is a mess and the wife is looking for some steaks soon.

[Texantothecore]

An added benefit of the creosote is that it will be an excellent binder and will hold the bp together quite well. I have had some up close experience with creosote (don't ask) and trust me it will be a great binder.

[Don McDowell]

Kootne, you might slip over the ridge to Dave Gullo's outfit and buy a few pounds of the Olde Eynsford, he's selling Goex powders now along with the Swiss.

[kootne]

Kootne, you might slip over the ridge to Dave Gullo's outfit and buy a few pounds of the Olde Eynsford, he's selling Goex powders now along with the Swiss.

Thanks for the tip, I do get that way periodically. I will not be going over that ridge though, Idaho's Bear Mountain Snotel site (5400' elv.) is showing 143" snow depth today. Us old bulls just follow the Kootenai river down to Bonners Ferry and cut south through the Purcell trench to Ponderay. I would like to try that powder in my .40/50 Ballard offhand rifle
kootne