First time .45-90 with Black

[Reaper]

I had a .45-90 Sharps built in 2001. I've shot approximately 200 rounds of which half were trapdoor level smokeless loads and half were commercially loaded with black powder. I'm ready to start loading my own black powder cartridges.

I have the following:

1. 500 Starline cases

2. Goex Cartridge black powder

3. CCI, Federal, Winchester & Magtech LR primers

4. 400 pre-cast Lyman 535gr Postells

5. Lyman taper crimp die, RCBS dies and a machinest friend made a

compression die for me.

My only experience with black powder is in muzzleloaders where powder is

loaded by volume. I'm looking for a place to start. How much powder ? Drop

tube ? Measure it by weight or Lee dippers ? How much compression ????

I need a confidence builder. Do not want something bad to happen when

I drop the hammer. Thanks

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Lots of info here

http://www.australianhunting.net/index.php?topic=12632.0

Cheers
BA

[freedom475]

Your in trouble now.........this is worse than crack.......:mrgreen:

Drop tube yes.

Many shooters get better results with a volume measure..

I don't resize my cases after fire forming, No crimp, hand seat the bullets on compressed powder with a thin cardboard wad under boolit. Thats what my gun likes,

There are so many variables with the BLACK that you need to just start....then begin changing/adding/subtracting 1 THING at a time so when you find what works you can repeat it.

You shouldn't have to worry about something "bad"(dangerous) when the hammer falls as long as you are using Black Powder.

A great book that covers a LOT of useful info is "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" by Mike Venturino, I wish I would have had the book when I first started. It even contains a specific chapter on the 45-90.

Good luck and have fun:Fire:

[13Echo]

First thing, anneal the Starline cases. They tend to be very hard and will not expand well to seal the chamber on firing and accuracy will suffer.

As for a good load, well that is going to take a bit of experimenting. Right now I'm shooting what is basically a super 45-70 with 80gr Goex FFg, a LDPE and waxpaper wad, and a Lyman 457125 bullet seated to just touch the lands with a Rem 9 1/2 primer. I've also had good luck with the Postel and 90grs of powder but I couldn't make a decent group with anything I tried till I annealed the cases..

Jerry Liles

[crossfireoops]

Starline annnealing dittos...........

GTC

[montana_charlie]

As alluded to earlier, there are two base conditions to choose from when reloading your brass...fireformed and resized. You need to choose which one you will try first.

I recommend you start with loading (and shooting) fireformed cases, because you can easily switch to 'resized' later, if you desire.

- Anneal your Starline brass.
- Fireform it with the propellant of your choice and (packed) cream of wheat 'bullets'.
- Trim your brass (after fireforming)...not to 2.1 inches - because it's the name of the cartridge...and not to 2.090 inches - because it seems like a good 'trim to length'.
Trim your cases to match the chamber depth of your rifle.
- Slip one of your Postell bullets into the chamber and gently stand the rifle on it's muzzle.
- Measure from the bullet's base to the back of your barrel.
- Mark one of your trimmed cases (felt tip pen) at the same distance from the case head as the measurement you obtained to the bullet's base.

That shows how deeply the bullet must be seated into the case to just touch the lands.

- Charge the (primed) case with black powder...60 grains from a volumetric (muzzle loader) measure...or 65 grains (scale weighed). Both of these charges are about the same amount of powder.

Most people will 'settle' the charge by using a drop tube, or with vibration...your choice.

- Place a wad on top of the powder and compress it to the depth marked on that case you measured.
- Lock this setting on your powder compression die.
- Thumb seat a lubed bullet in the case.
The round is ready to be fired, but you should make sure it will chamber easily...then load up more of them.

The amount of compression is what it is. It will change when you try different powder charges...or different bullet seating depths.
When you find an accurate load, you might want to do some measuring to find out exactly how much compression you are using, but it really isn't important.

If you never find that 'magic load', you may decide to resize your cases at each reloading. The primary advantage of this (according to those who prefer it) is it allows you to use a predetermined 'neck tension'.
In that event, you will need to re-trim, because the sizing will make them longer.

Should you ever want to return to shooting fireformed cases, you will need new ones...as the old ones will likely be so short they will encourage leading in the chamber throat.
CM

[WBH]

Paul Matthews is another good read.

[crossfireoops]

M.C. says, "Should you ever want to return to shooting fireformed cases, you will need new ones...as the old ones will likely be so short they will encourage leading in the chamber throat."

I say that's deterministic....and really depends on your chamber design, ....and how WELL it was chambered.

He says,

"Trim your cases to match the chamber depth of your rifle."

I think he learned that the hard way..........

Burn up and LOSE, 2-3-4 cases....establishing trim legnth....Than trim the rest.

You can't fire form anybody's cases with COW, and BP.......boolits required, IMHO.

For whatever this tip is worth.......we anneal Straline right down to the web.

GTC

[wills]

This can be simplified some. One way to get your powder charge, is simply scoop up a case full of Black Powder, Goex FFG or Cartridge. Scrape the powder off level with the mouth of the cartridge case. Weigh this charge, and adjust your powder scale to drop this amount of powder.

Slowly drop this powder charge into the case, through a drop tube, 24” or so long. Put a veggie. Polly or cardboard wad, as you prefer on top of the charge. Compress the powder enough so you can seat the boolit to the overall length you want. If you are shooting a single shot you may want forgo crimping.

There are technical articles available at

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Technical_Information.htm

And you may specifically wish to refer to
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

and

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/charging_cases_for_best_accuracy.htm

You could also check in at

Alterfurtz BPCR group
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR

Shiloh Sharps
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

Or take a look at ordering this book

Croft Barker; The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook CISTERN PUBLISHING COMPANY, 14010 North State HWY 95 ,Flatonia, Texas 7894
Tel:(361) 865-0030 Fax: (361)865-0031,katbark@pcguns.net
http://www.cisternpublishing.org/

[wills]

some of this may have been in the previous post however

Also see
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Technical_Information.htm
and in particular
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

You can make things easier on yourself and use SPG which is a blackpowder lube and will let you get started without having to worry about that as a variable. http://www.blackpowderspg.com/lube.html A lube with petroleum products will combine with the burning sulfur in the blackpowder to create tar in your barrel, which you may or may not be able to remove.

You do not need gaschecked boolits for BPCR and they may not be legal for competition.

Some people use WW and there are a lot who Alloy lead/tin at 20/1 or 30/1. (If you have a source of certified lead and tin, you can decide to you want to spend time hunting wheelweights or money buying lead/tin.)

Immediately after shooting decap, and drop the cases into a jug of water & detergent. I use a decapper from James C. Hagar 918-342-3465. When you get home, chuck a bore brush into an electric drill and brush out the inside. Put the cases in a vibratory tumbler and let them tumble with the lid off until they are clean and dry. Do this somewhere the dust from the tumbler wont be a problem.

The powder measure manufacturers will say must have a special measure for black. There are other points of view. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=142145#post142145
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

Regard a drop tube as a must. You can build it yourself like this http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/DROPTUBE2.jpg or thishttp://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/DROPTUBE.jpg The second one is facing you, imagine a large capital letter E.

If your boolit holds enough lube, you may not need a grease cookie.

You may also want to look at;
Alterfurtz BPCR group
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR

Shiloh Sharps
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/


Croft Barker; The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook CISTERN PUBLISHING COMPANY, 14010 North State HWY 95 ,Flatonia, Texas 7894
Tel:(361) 865-0030 Fax: (361)865-0031,katbark@pcguns.net
http://www.cisternpublishing.org/

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

http://www.riflesmith.com/shoots.html

http://www.goexpowder.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/

You have to kind of fight with the NEI website, the second url gives you pictures of the boolits.
http://www.neihandtools.com/

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[crossfireoops]

Croft Barker's work completely eclipses Matthew's.......If I were going to invest in reading material, ......I'd go to his work ( Cistern Publiching) first.

Clear, articulate, and based on practical experience.

No particular dog in this fight......Mattheaws always came across vague, and indeterminate.
Barker actually RECOMENDS methods.....takes a reasonably firm position on things, as it were.

My $.02

GTC

[Reaper]

Thanks everybody. You've given me the info I need to start.


This can be simplified some. One way to get your powder charge, is simply scoop up a case full of Black Powder, Goex FFG or Cartridge. Scrape the powder off level with the mouth of the cartridge case. Weigh this charge, and adjust your powder scale to drop this amount of powder

I'm going to use this method to establish a starting load. It's the most straightforward explanation of where to begin. I have Paul Matthew's " How-to's for the black powder cartridge shooter" and "Loading the black powder rifle cartridge". I agree with Wills and crossfireoops, that to the beginner, Matthews comes across as vague. I'll order Croft Barker's book.

Won't be able to get to the range until the 14th of January so I have lot of work to do between now and then. I'll post results. Once again, Thanks.

[montana_charlie]

I have edited my earlier post. The powder charges I recommended were based on 45/90 dimensions...not 45/70. They now are suitable for the shorter case.

If you like to use information obtained from 'book writers', you might consider the recommendations of Spence Wolf in "The Book" on the 45/70 cartridge.

He says a 'maximum' starting charge consists of 5.3 grains of powder per tenth of an inch of powder column height.

Using measurements from a sectioned Remington 45/70 case, I found an inside depth of 1.910".
A Postell bullet needs to be seated pretty close to .625"
Add a .030" wad to .625 and you have .655" subtracted from the available depth.

1.910 minus .655 equals 1.255 inches of powder column...or 12/10ths (plus a little).
5.3 times 12 equals 63.6 grains, which could be rounded up to 65 - due to the 'plus a little'.

I used his formula to pick a starting load for my 45/90 Sharps, and came up with a charge of 79 grains for a bullet with a similar seating depth requirement. The load shoots well in my rifle.


He [MC] says,

"Trim your cases to match the chamber depth of your rifle."

I think he learned that the hard way..........
That is entirely correct...

CM

[jjamna]

I want to load some 45-70 with Black Powder. Can you use sub's like American pioneer and pyrodex. I have some true black powder but it is fffg can I use that. Sorry to jump in on your post Reaper but my ? was the same and I didn't want to post again.

[twotrees]

JJ

You can use sub powders but holy black has proved best for most folks.
"Can I use 3 F?" Yep you can (I do but I reduced the charge weights and worked up) 3F burns cleaner in my Uberti than 2 F, so thats what I use.

Wills is right about dipping and scraping off to find a charge weight. That will give you a good starting point. If your using Swiss use a bit less as it don't like compression as much as GOEX.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees