5.56 vs 7.62

[HollandNut]

So here is my deal ..

I'm serially considering one of those awful terrible BLACK rifles ..

1) I am no fan of small bores and both are small and miniscule in my book

getting past #1

which do you have and why ??

the 308 definitely has the punch over the 5.56 , but the 5.56 has the field advantage of more ammo per pound for carrying ..

[Love Life]

5.56 is what I prefer in the black rifles. Accurate, low recoil, easy to carry ammo (lots of it), and it kills stuff. I don't use it for hunting.

[376Steyr]

Manly men, who do manly things in the manner of men, eschew the AR-10 and use a M14 for their 7.62 purposes. I had mine out last week, cinched the M1907 sling down tight, and was kicking up dust and rocks with it at 800 yards. Great fun. When you get a black rifle, the first one should be a 5.56.

[JeffinNZ]

What will be the intended use? That might be the critical factor.

[UBER7MM]

There's lots of options out there today regarding the black rifle, especially if you like the 5.56 NATO cartridge. If money wasn't a criteria, I'd go for an AR-10 or variant or even a M1a. I've also looked at the FN-SCAR, but thought them a bit heavy. 308/7.62 NATO over, 7'08 or 243, 260 gives you the mil-surplus ammo option. The larger caliber aren't as popular. More kick, but with authority.

[lefty o]

for fun shooting, and they make a great varmint rifle, the .223/5.56 is hard to beat.

[Bonz]

+1 on the 5.56 NATO

[Old School Big Bore]

Stock OCS answer: depends on the situation & terrain, but +1 on your first AR should be a 15 rather than a 10.

[Old Ironsights]

If buying an AR, I agree with the above.

Me, I went with the HK platform in 7.62.

[Artful]

Well, you are asking for quite a dissertation.
First a 308/7.62x51 "Black" Rifle - is a Main Battle Rifle, it was an improvement over the manual repeater SMLE, 1903 or K98 and Garand semi-auto. It is shooting a rifle caliber and you won't find many that could shoot them accurately on full auto (not that you'll find an affordable full-auto anymore.)

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/attachments/fn-fal-fnc-fn-49/32271d1275140822-fal-picture-thread-308-rifles-small.jpg

They do the same thing - big heavy main battle rifles in 308 caliber rifle round (7.62x51 NATO cartridge) rifles holding 20-30 rounds in detachable mags. Totally different platforms, The Germans tried to adopt the FN-FAL as their G1 but the Belgians didn't want to sell to them as many as they wanted as it was just after WW2 and they held a grudge so the German's adopted the G3 - which was a product improved CETME which was product development of German stamped sheet metal receiver rifles of WW2 as opposed to forged machined receiver of the FAL. It was a quicker/cheaper way to make good guns. Same as AK-47 stamped receiver. USA M-14 due to not designed here so just reworked the Garand design to get what they wanted. AR10 sold in a couple of countries but never really gained a following like FAL, HK systems did.

Of the 5 platforms that I have Tried, I will give you an opinion of them.
Most accurate untuned will be AR-10 in my experience 1 MOA, but it will also not be 100% reliable either.
HK91 very accurate 1-2 MOA and very reliable - heavy and loud and ergonomic's don't fit everyone.
M14/M1A is Accurate and reliable - if you want match accuracy you will have to pay to have "match tuning"
FAL - 2-3 MOA Accurate and reliable - if you find ammo it likes it can surprise you even accuracy wise.
SAIGA 308 - once you get past the terrible trigger it can shoot well with correct techniques. 2-4 MOA, Magazines expensive

I currently have two FAL's for SHTF but kept my HK with collapsing stock as that's best for that need.
I changed out mag release on HK so all work the same Lever way - If you value accuracy over reliability get AR10 or SASS or M110 or whatever they call it these days. If you want an all around good performer get either FAL (if you value your brass) or HK 91/G3 (if you don't care about your brass as it throws them far).

By the way, the other things to consider when choosing rifle will be cost of magazine and replacement parts availability. I'd rather have a little cheaper rifle with 50 loaded mags and spare parts than an expensive gun with 2 mags and no spare parts.

My M-1 Garand uses 8 round enbloc clips and you get 10 in the bandoleer so 80 rounds total.
In the Vietnam War, the standard load out for the M14 was five twenty round magazines (100 rounds).
I have set up a belt (with suspenders) that has room for 6-8 FAL mags and one in the gun which would be 140 to 180 rounds total.

Poodle Shooters in 223. Aka mouse guns - "Assault rifles/carbines"
Light caliber Varmint round - remember Army doctrine is better to wound the enemy as it takes 2-3 out of the fight to take care of wounded than just kill.

Most commonly found are AR-180, Ruger Mini-14 or AR15 Clones

Ruger Mini-14 2-4 MOA and very reliable, carrying a pleasure same manual at arms as M-14 but weigh less.
Bill Ruger summed it up nicely " The Worlds most Expensive Plinker".
Ruger still gives factory support but there are many differing models and they no longer stock parts for the older ones.
You can now buy hi-cap magazines from Ruger in 20 or 30 configuration, for what it was designed to be there is no better plinker.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/th_457.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/457.jpg.html)

AR-180 folded sheet metal improvement and replacement of AR15 design
(both designed by Eugene Stoner :awesome:)
accurate 2-3 MOA and easy to field strip
- originals came with folding stock - newer AR180B's don't and have plastic lower.
No support and parts not easily found.
New AR180B does use AR15/M16 magazines
the older original require a modification to M16 mag's to function.

Leaving AR15 Clones
Long term issue rifle of US Military - Accurate if built correctly and capable of 1000 yard hits (not much power left but you can get them there) with more options than Barbie's wardrobe on how you want it built - I'd say this is the best option for 223 rifle - and with a barrel change alone you can shoot quite a few other calibers such as 300 blackout.
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/YosemiteSam357/Guns/Barbie_for_Men.jpg
Lots of options in your setup of an just the M-4 AR15 clone - then you can get into other versions
Pick a barrel length and gas tube length
http://i1.wp.com/www.thenewrifleman.com/dev/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Different-lengths.jpg
or just buy a lower and several uppers
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss11/huge/P1050490.jpg
Note: the above requires you register your lower as a SBR (short barreled rifle) for $200 tax stamp for uppers with under 16 inch barrels.

The standard load out for the M16 was/is? seven thirty round magazines (210 rounds).
My 3-gun Vest can carry 12 30 round mags plus one in the gun - which is 390 rounds if loaded out that way.

I like a 20 inch barrel for varminting
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/th_278.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/278.jpg.html)

3 gun I like a different setup
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/th_301.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/301.jpg.html)

Do your homework!
http://thearmsguide.com/2905/how-to-build-an-ar-15-beginners-guide-part-one/

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/diy-ar-15-build-introduction-parts-and-tools-required/
No AR discussion is complete without :lol: Nutnfancy :kidding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJASJhcFQSc

You left out 7.62x39 - in an AK or SKS it's a very capable defensive weapon.

[Love Life]

I keep a 20 rd mag in the gun and usually have a 30 rd mag in my pocket. If I can't get it done with that many rds then I'm just in a bad spot. If I grab my 60 lb ninja vest then I have more magazines, E-SAPI, blah blah blah.

The M4 carbine is the most versatile in my expert opinion. Short, handy, and a capable killer to far distances.

[Scharfschuetze]

Opinions on this are going to be like elbows. Everyone has two of 'em!

I've used both calibres on military deployments and while I didn't like the M16A1 in Vietnam, I did finally accept the M4 SOPMOD as posted by Artful. I've used both the M14/M1A and the M16/AR15HBAR in competition from local levels to the international and NATO levels and have done well with both. The 77 grain and the 80 grain match bullets in the 5.56 compete well with the 7.62 Match Kings at 600 yards. The 5.56mm is much easier to get high scores with during the rapid fire stages of the NM course.

I've also dropped deer and antelope with both calibres and I guess I prefer the 30 caliber for this purpose. Shot placement is key with either calibre, but a heart shot deer is just as dead with both calibres. Properly constructed bullets in the 5.56/223 are really important here. Prairie dogs and other vermin expire most ricky tick with the 5.56 while the 7.62 also does a good job on critters, it really is overkill in this situation.

I've never cast boolits for the .224 calibre so I can't comment on that, but I must have at least six 30 cal moulds and it is a very easy calibre to shoot cast boolits in, from subsonic up to 2,000 fps or so. Many members here take it even faster than that.

If you're recoil sensitive, a day with the 5.56 will be a lot easier on your shoulder than a 7.62x51.

In these days of high component costs the 5.56mm will use about half the powder as the larger 7.62x51 NATO round, but match bullets will probably cost you about the same. Ditto for primers and cases. If you're casting boolits, the 30 calibres will generally use about two thirds more lead per projectile than the 22 calibres.

As noted above, decide on your intended purpose and let that drive your decision. I guess if you can afford it, get both. You'll probably end up with both sooner or later anyway.

[M-Tecs]

I have both. Not enough info to answer. The additional size and weight of the AR10 platform changes the handling and carrying characteristics. The AR15 has literally replaced the 223/556 bolt guns for most applications. Not so much with the AR10’s. Lots of people buy them thinking they will replace their 308 class bolt guns for hunting/general use. After a year or two most go back to using a bolt gun or a AR15 in a 6mm – 30cal round.

If you need a 308 you will deal with the size and weight of the AR10. If you don’t need a 308 you may find yourself wishing it handled and carried like an AR15.

[Old Ironsights]

...
HK91 very accurate 1-2 MOA and very reliable - heavy and loud and ergonomic's don't fit everyone....
I ... kept my HK with collapsing stock as that's best for that need....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/2013-11-22_18-46-45_391-1.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/MrMisanthrope/media/2013-11-22_18-46-45_391-1.jpg.html)

;-)

[Blammer]

308, turning cover into concealment for long time.

[Artful]

308, turning cover into concealment for long time.

From "The Ultimate Sniper" by Maj. John Plaster USAR (Ret.)

Informal Media Penetration Test pg. 129

1st line will represent 5.56 m193 ammo (FMJ 55 grain),
2nd line will represent 7.62 m80 ammo (FMJ 147 grain).......

Military Sandbags 100yds -- fail
Military Sandbags 100yds -- fail

Helmet w/ liner 200yds MAX
Helmet w/ liner 400yds easy

Concrete H-Block 200yds MAX
Concrete H-Block 300yds MAX

4" Layer of Pine 400yds barely
4" Layer of Pine 400yds easy

1/8" Sheet Steel 100yds MAX
1/8" Sheet Steel 300yds easy

1/4" Boiler Plate 100yds MAX
1/4" Boiler Plate 200yds MAX

Car Door '68 Dodge 300yds barely
Car Door '68 Dodge 400yds easy.

From the above, you can reason that the .308 penetrates better and easier.
From likely engagement scenarios the only cover you can assume that will likely save you from either round would be a properly constructed sandbag bunker. As enemy engagement from a single person at greater than 100yds will likely get you dead in a hurry.

It's not that the .308 performs so much better, it's that the .223 can do many of the same things the .308 can do at realistic ranges, but just not to the "n"th degree the .308 can. There seems to be some failure to comprehend that most rifle caliber bullets will penetrate most things considered "cover". From the tiniest little mouse gun in .223 to the .50BMG. And with SS109 penetrating ammo the 5.56 will do better than the above.


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot24.htm

http://www.civiliandefenseforce.com/308penetrationtest.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s1n9tYVWIk

[dragon813gt]

What about 300 Blackout? It's like the two made a baby :laugh:
This particular round runs into suppressed SBR territory.

[JeffinNZ]

Artful: Nice report and posting.

[tygar]

OK this one again. It's like AHs, everyone has one or 10 opinions on this.

In VN in 67 I famed the AR & it was a tinker toy ***. I wouldn't carry one for any reason (unless it was the last gun avail).

I loved my M14. You can pop a melon at 500 with it & punch thru most cover & make em cry.

I shot the M14 & M1 in matches, have NM guns in both & they are great.

Well the last time I had to fire for qual, I "had" to use an AR. I shot a 197 out of 200 & had possibled until the last 5 when I dropped 3.

The best score I ever had with an M1 or M14 was 243 & I pulled that one out of my az. (I'm horrible offhand)

Well that was in the early 80s. I believe I had 3 ARs before the year was out. Now have several match guns & a "sniper" 28" Kreiger that is 4" at 500.

I still love my .308s, even have a couple AR10s, which are OK also.

But the rifle hanging behind my bed is a 14" tricked out AR with laser & lights & holo, flip ups & filled with 75gr Hornady TAPS. The shorty in my main safe is the same with a 16". Today I have maybe 7 AR15s & about the same in AR10s, M14s, MIs (not counting collector M1s).

My grab vest has about 10 40rd AR mags, some with 62gr penetrators, 15 45mags, several military boxes of 00buck etc. & the gun in my hand going out the door or behind the brick wall is that "***" AR I wouldn't carry in VN.

My wife can pick one up & put it on target & shoot accurately, pull the charging handle with no problem & pack one easily with her 67yo arthritis ridden hands, & kill anything within reason.

But dam, I still love my M14s.

And as the guy said above, I'd take the M1A, over any AR10. That Garand action is bullet proof.

Have fun figuring this out.
Tom

[smokeywolf]

I've never had an inclination to acquire or shoot an AR platform rifle; until now. With the exception of a very few rifles and pistols, my interest in firearms has been limited to pre WW I guns.

For several months, I've been perusing info on 308 cal. AR platforms. 308 because I have a son interested in target shooting longer ranges; up to 1,000 yards.

From what little I've read, 5.56 is generally good to 700 yards, 7.62/308 good to 1,100 yards, 338 Lapua and 300 Win Mag good to 1,600 yards and 50 cal. beyond that.

The more range you're after, the higher cost in gun and ammo components, the more weight in the gun and ammo.

Accuracy and reliability oft times do not go hand-in-hand.

Do I have this right so far?

smokeywolf

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks for the test links Art. It would be fun to add 7.62x54 Light Ball (mild steel core) to those tests to compare how well the steel cores do vs the lead cored ball...

[Artful]

Artful: Nice report and posting.

Thanks - I try to share my limited experiences :-)

[M-Tecs]

Smokeywolf

Disclaimer - I haven’t been following the M110 rifles the last couple of years and this is hearsay not firsthand experience.

When the M110 gained service rifle status the thought was that they would dominate the service rifle matches at Camp Perry. That hasn’t happen. Tubb used an SR25 for a couple of year but he went back to the bolt gun.

The AR10 rifles have not dominated the match rifle competitions either.

Again this is hearsay but the thought was that due to the increased recoil harmonics the upper receiver flex was causing accuracy issues. The solution was the monolithic uppers and or stiffeners between the upper and the float tube. I have not followed closely but I read the Camp Perry Service top shooters are using AR15’s and the match rifle shooter are A15’s in 556 or various 6mm’s like the 6mm Hagar http://www.6mmar.com/6mm_HAGAR.php or bolt guns

What type of target shooting is your son doing?

[Artful]

308 because I have a son interested in target shooting longer ranges; up to 1,000 yards.

From what little I've read, 5.56 is generally good to 700 yards, 7.62/308 good to 1,100 yards, 338 Lapua and 300 Win Mag good to 1,600 yards and 50 cal. beyond that.

The more range you're after, the higher cost in gun and ammo components, the more weight in the gun and ammo.

Accuracy and reliability oft times do not go hand-in-hand.

Do I have this right so far?

smokeywolf

Well, yes and no -

The more range you're after, the higher cost in gun and ammo components, the more weight in the gun and ammo.
I think this is an accurate statement
- I think kurt's 338 Lapua is about $5 per shot as I recall him telling me. (bolt gun)

I know Roger was hitting at just over a mile with his 300 win mag about 70% in the scoring circles the others were casualties of wind drift. (Bolt gun)

Mike with 77 grain 223 rounds out of 24" barrel'd AR is getting about 12 inch groups at 1000 when the wind isn't too much. (Semi-auto)

A big part of shooting long distance is ammo selection and your sights be able to adjust for the trajectory of your round to be able to be on target at distance.

[tygar]

I've never had an inclination to acquire or shoot an AR platform rifle; until now. With the exception of a very few rifles and pistols, my interest in firearms has been limited to pre WW I guns.

For several months, I've been perusing info on 308 cal. AR platforms. 308 because I have a son interested in target shooting longer ranges; up to 1,000 yards.

From what little I've read, 5.56 is generally good to 700 yards, 7.62/308 good to 1,100 yards, 338 Lapua and 300 Win Mag good to 1,600 yards and 50 cal. beyond that.

The more range you're after, the higher cost in gun and ammo components, the more weight in the gun and ammo.

Accuracy and reliability oft times do not go hand-in-hand.

Do I have this right so far?

smokeywolf

There are guys who can shoot the AR10/M1As at 1000 in competition, Craig Parker my old running mate in AK is a Presidents 100 & can do well at 1k, most can't. I'm good at 600/700 but at 1k it's a problem. Also the 308 out of the autos is iffy to keep supersonic at 1k unless you have a rifle that will push it pretty good, this is using 175s. This is where an adjustable gas plug helps.

With the right bolt gun you can shoot 308s in moa at 1k & some much better.

With ARs & the 80gr match with 25.0(or a little more) RL15 you can keep supersonic at 1K but wind is a killer. I fall off accuracy wise past 500.

Even though the 1k iron site target is real big, I can't begin to focus any more on it & only use guns with a big old Nightforce scopes on it.

So if it's your son his eyes will be able to focus ok but it's still a good shot that can do 1k with a mil gun.

I only have bolt BR rifles in 300WM & 300 WSM & they do shoot good at 1k but haven't shot autos in 338/300 or 50.

[Artful]

Thanks for the test links Art. It would be fun to add 7.62x54 Light Ball (mild steel core) to those tests to compare how well the steel cores do vs the lead cored ball...

There are some 7.62x54R tests out there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBxqFjYXOGw

[smokeywolf]

M-Tecs,

Right now he just plays around with an 03 Springfield with iron sights out to 300 yds. Also, when his shoulder starts hurting, shoots a 218 bee w/scope out to 200 yds.; wind permitting.

Another reason for my researching ARs is, my wife wants one.

tygar said, "I only have bolt BR rifles in 300WM & 300 WSM & they do shoot good at 1k but haven't shot autos in 338/300 or 50."

I know when you go over 7.62/308 most, if not all actions are bolt.

smokeywolf

[M-Tecs]

smokeywolf

Couple of sites for you

http://www.njhighpower.com/ click on the AR10 stuph

http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum?

http://www.iowahighpower.com/hplinks/forums.htm

[freebullet]

DANGER WARNING!!!

They are like crack, "which one" implies you'll just get the one- IME it don't work that way.

You've been warned.

Several configurations of both calibers will sneak into your life if you get "one".

[HollandNut]

Artful brought some interesting links up to check later .. Not into targets , interested in when as he says the SHTF .. I am and have always been a main battle rifle guy .. My brother had a HK91 he dam near shot out , and I got to run a few hundred through it years ago , and never had the money he wanted to part with it ..

I also am a huge fan of the M1 and M14 .

casting for the 308 is much easier than 22 ..

Interesting replies , just wanted everyones thoughts

[HollandNut]

and while those long range numbers are OK for paper punching , a 223 or 308 out at those ranges don't do much on flesh and bone .

I pop someone I insist they know they got hit

I can see my 458 Lott as very persuasive when it hits someone

[Artful]

http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/ConsiderTerminalBallistics.pdf

[MtGun44]

Start with a 5.56 AR15 clone. After you are up to speed, look at the other stuff.
They are reliable, accurate, affordable and fun to shoot.

Bill

[Jupiter7]

I too own 7, 5 in 223/556, 2 in 300blk, all in different configurations. Ar15's are too easy to own and maintain. Parts are everywhere, ammo is everywhere. I may catch flak but the AR15 in 223/556 IS Americas's Rifle. If you only own one, a standard AR15 in 223/556 is the one to own. Pick your configuration(there are too many to list, that's why we all have multiple). For first, a flat-topped m4 clone would be my suggestion, probably most versatile rifle there is.

[Old Ironsights]

There are some 7.62x54R tests out there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBxqFjYXOGw

I've seen that one. Makes me think x54R Steel jacketed Steel would be better against non-hardened "light armor" (&/or drones?) than copper & lead .308...

But thus far I haven't found a direct "shoot off" between 147gr .308 Lead Core FMJ & 147gr x54R Steel Core FMJ.

[phonejack]

If it is to used for "serious" work, I'll quote Clint Smith : the bullet has to do something when it gets there !

[Larry Gibson]

If it is to used for "serious" work, I'll quote Clint Smith : the bullet has to do something when it gets there !

Exactly right! What is "cover" to 5.56 NATO is only "concealment" to 7.62 NATO. Many of us who have "been there" with both know the difference.

7.62 NATO; better than Master Card or VISA, accepted worldwide.....never leave home with out it........

Larry Gibson

[Love Life]

and while those long range numbers are OK for paper punching , a 223 or 308 out at those ranges don't do much on flesh and bone .

I pop someone I insist they know they got hit

I can see my 458 Lott as very persuasive when it hits someone

I beg to differ. I can put you in touch with a guy who killed 4 mortarman at 945 yards with his lowly 308 shooting 175 gr SMK. Would you want to stand on the 1,000 yd target line and catch the 175 SMK so they can be reused?

Mr. Gibson also brings up a very good point about the 7.62 VS 5.56.

[freebullet]

Deer that have taken a 168gr smk to the heart only have heart soup left inside when I've shot them at 200-300.

[tygar]

I beg to differ. I can put you in touch with a guy who killed 4 mortarman at 945 yards with his lowly 308 shooting 175 gr SMK. Would you want to stand on the 1,000 yd target line and catch the 175 SMK so they can be reused?

Mr. Gibson also brings up a very good point about the 7.62 VS 5.56.

If I may humbly say, my 308 tactical shoots 9 ring accuracy at 1000yds with the 175. Actually it shoots better than that, "I" can shoot 9 ring. It's still going fast enough to put a hole thru a people or a deer. I can also clang the people steel at 500 with my M1A with alarming regularity. So don't underestimate the good ol' 7.62.

Also, what takes a AP in a 5.56 a FMJ in the 7.62 will do, & further.

Still for the home defense thing, the tricked out AR is the ticket. I have a BM59 folder shorty on a M1a & it is not the self defense weapon the AR is. I do have a AR10 receiver at my GS & we are going to make a shorty entry gun out of it, so when that happens I'll let you know how it works out.

Like I said, poppin melons at 500 is not hard with a 7.62.

[tygar]

M-Tecs,

tygar said, "I only have bolt BR rifles in 300WM & 300 WSM & they do shoot good at 1k but haven't shot autos in 338/300 or 50."

I know when you go over 7.62/308 most, if not all actions are bolt.

smokeywolf

Actually no, several people make AR types with 300s & I believe 338.

[TNsailorman]

It goes right back to the old "depends on what you intend to use it for". And lets face it, for a sandbagged bunker or earth re-enforced log bunker, your gonna need Ma deuce. There is no such animal as a "all around" rifle. The military has been searching for 100 years or more for one and they are still searching. For civilians it get even more complicated with some wanting long range, some hitting power, some want light weight(to carry more ammo), some want varmint rifles, some Africa caliber, it goes on and on. I don't think we are going to solve the discussion here either. We have quite a few experts on this forum and even they can't agree on such questions. They do make for good reading and food for thought, though.

[Love Life]

Get one in 338 federal just cuz'.

[lefty o]

Get one in 338 federal just cuz'.

thats as good of reason as any. like i always say when someone says what do you need that for....need has nothing to do with it!

[freebullet]

300 win mag ar is 5k. That would be fun if your pocket are deep.

[dragon813gt]

Get one in 338 federal just cuz'.

I came across a company that is making uppers based off of the WSSM cartridges if you're into burning out barrels.

[monadnock#5]

I agree with James, "depends on your intended usage". The one complete season I shot Highpower, I made Expert with the Springfield M1A "Loaded". Beautiful rifle, but heavy and expensive to reload. Had I gone with the "mouse rifle", I would have been in excellent company with the top Service Rifle marksmen in the league and it wouldn't have hurt my league standing in the least.

For pure fun, and with an eye the local and global news, I don't think you can beat a 5.56 AR. Relatively cheap to reload. best selection of loaded ammo on the shelf, and in case quantity more so than any other rifle round. Mags, accessories, replacement parts.... The 5.56 AR doesn't just participate in the race, it is the race.

[armorer59]

So here is my deal ..

I'm serially considering one of those awful terrible BLACK rifles ..

1) I am no fan of small bores and both are small and miniscule in my book

getting past #1

which do you have and why ??

the 308 definitely has the punch over the 5.56 , but the 5.56 has the field advantage of more ammo per pound for carrying ..



If you want an AR platform but really have disdain for 5.56, consider 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC Rem. I have a Grendel and LOVE it! Past 400 meters the 6.5 packs more energy than 7.62, shoots flatter and fits in a STANDARD AR platform! If ammo availability isn't a primary concern, then go Grendel!!!! It outperforms 6.8 SPC and is wickedly accurate! I have several AR's in 5.56, but the Grendel is my favorite to shoot!

[HollandNut]

actually considered the Grendel or 6.8 , wasn't sure of the 6.5 performance , a friend swears by the 6.8

[armorer59]

Take a look at ballistics for both 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC. 6.8 is a good cartridge but the 6.5 really shines past 400 meters.

[smokeywolf]

Actually no, several people make AR types with 300s & I believe 338.

For me, confidence in my firearm and in my cartridge is of the greatest importance. With that in mind, if I were to go above 308 in caliber, I would opt for a bolt action rather than a semi-auto.

armorer59 said,
"Past 400 meters the 6.5 packs more energy than 7.62"

As far as muzzle energy or energy at target, assuming the target is not behind hardened cover, regardless of figures that delineate higher energy as a result of higher velocity, I've always placed more credence in the terminal effect of a lower velocity, large diameter, heavy boolit.

smokeywolf

[Artful]

Check ammo/component availability and cost(s) on those interesting calibers

- my advise for first military type rifle is get something that is a current standard or has a large availability of surplus available.

Current ammo in use is 223/5.56 (all nato countries), 7.62x51 (Medium MG use by All NATO countries)
7.62x39 and 5.45x39 comblock countries, 7.62x54 (Medium MG comblock countries)

If it isn't one of the above you may have issues with ammo - seen any surplus 7.5 French? 8mm Lebel? 8x56R Hungarian, 8mm Siamese, 6.5 Jap - lots of weapons not much ammo.

Even standard ammo like 30 Carbine, 303 Brit, 8x57 or .30'06 doesn't have near the amount of surplus that was once available, and of course the price is pretty high these days.

[JSnover]

In the service, I stripped and cleaned the AR so many times I am sick of it. If I never handle another one, that's fine with me.
OTOH, I love my FN-FAL and I believe the larger cartridge is more useful, ie, more flexible. To each his own.

[JSnover]

As far as muzzle energy or energy at target, assuming the target is not behind hardened cover, regardless of figures that delineate higher energy as a result of higher velocity, I've always placed more credence in the terminal effect of a lower velocity, large diameter, heavy boolit.

smokeywolf

I'll second that. Many moons ago an old- timer told me, "for live targets, use the heaviest bullet for the caliber." As near as I can tell he was right.

[Artful]

Some I haven't played with - but would like too ;-)
SOCOM-16 vs SCAR-17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elvmS2z0Gmg

[dragon813gt]

Check ammo/component availability and cost(s) on those interesting calibers

Bingo. The one exception is cartridges based on the current ones in use like 223/308. As long as you can make brass you are good to go. This is CastBoolits so I don't expect that most shoot factory ammo. So you can compromise some w/ your cartridge selection. Pick one that has a parent case of 223/308. Do yourself a favor and looks at Starline's price for 458 SoCom brass. If that doesn't turn you off the oddballs I don't know what will.

[Old Ironsights]

In the service, I stripped and cleaned the AR so many times I am sick of it. If I never handle another one, that's fine with me.
OTOH, I love my FN-FAL and I believe the larger cartridge is more useful, ie, more flexible. To each his own.

And that right there... plus my distaste for gas tubes... is why I went Hk91.

Oh, and magazines. Piles and piles of inexpensive OEM magazines... (I bought 40 @$2/era)

[Moonie]

Take a look at ballistics for both 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC. 6.8 is a good cartridge but the 6.5 really shines past 400 meters.

Yes the 6.5 Grendel outshines the SPEC-I 6.8 SPC chamber but not so much the SPEC-II, no one has built a SPEC-I chamber in years. The 6.5 has higher BC condom thingies and yes will outperform at very long range.

[Artful]

Well, we might as well kick over this bucket as well...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/melensdad/guns/Picture2-1.png

Now how much energy do you need to carry?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/melensdad/guns/Picture3-1.png

[376Steyr]

Energy comparisons? Yee Hah! Ft-lbs versus Momentum in a Steel Cage Death Match! Only $44.95 on pay-per-view!:kidding:

[Artful]

oops for got one
http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/uploads/Weaponeer/images/2008-02-18_173538_65G_DropChart.jpg

[Love Life]

All of those puny ballistic coefficients...

If just for target fun then a 6.5 or a 6mm would be legit. Actually a 5.56 and 7.62 would be legit as well. If this is your SHTF OMG gun then a 5.56 would be my 1st choice with 7.62 following. I would pick the 5.56 1st for me, but that is just for me.

There is something comforting about the 7.62. I know when we would talk back with the M249 SAW in 5.56 things tended to stretch on longer than necessary. When the pig started talking in 7.62 things usually ended pretty quick.

Good stuff.

[freebullet]

Lol, 7.62 is very comforting indeed. The first time I shot a deer with it and realized the heart was liquefied I knew I would always own one.


That table is neat but its not apple's to apple's. 130 grain from a 7.62 can go 3000fps vs. the 123@2600.

[BruceB]

Lol, 7.62 is very comforting indeed.

I was managing a trophy caribou camp in the Barrens of the Northwest Territories back in '91 and also '92.... we were on strike at the mine where I normally worked.

Barren-ground grizzlies were coming right into camp almost every night after the meat, and I had to try keeping them out.

I mounted a night watch each night, sitting on a Honda trike with its headlight trained in the direction of the meat shed bout fifty yards away. The light was "off" until a bear triggered the alarm we'd hooked-up on the shed.

The ground was soft sand, so the bears were noiseless..... I warned everyone in camp NOT to approach my position without making some "people noises"....at risk of drastic consequences.

My rifle was a TRW M-14, loaded with 180-grain Nosler Partitions, and equipped with a good flashlight which was "co-witnessed" with the point of impact at fifty yards.


Having twenty rounds of on-tap Nosler-loaded 7.62, with bears in the immediate vicinity in the dark, was just as you said...... "comforting".

[dragon813gt]

There is no way I would want to attempt that w/ 5.56. Or for that matter any round below 7.62.

[Love Life]

If given a choice for BruceB's duties then 7.62 would be the choice. However; if all I had was an AR 15 in 5.56 with 30 rd magazine, then I would still sleep soundly at night. It always makes me chuckle how the killing ability and power of the 5.56 almost gets relegated to the same class as a 32 short or 22 lr when in reality is a very good killer of many things.

If I was looking for a black gun for target/competition then I would buy a black bolt action rifle.

[smkummer]

For those that are worried that 5.56 might not be enough, remember that is when one compares one to one of 7.62. Multiple hits with a 5.56 are a whole different situation. So for the so few times when you think you are under gunned fire enough rounds to defeat the target. Simple isn't it?

[Old Ironsights]

Spray & Pray vs aimed hits? That's why there are ammo "shortages".

If all you ever have to.worry about is soft targets, then 5.56 is handy. But there is an awful lot of "cover" in this world that becomes simple concealment when you step up to a MBR...

[seagiant]

Hi,
I have always been a 7.62 kind of guy. I own Garands,FALs,M14,ect. I have just lately built a nice AR-15 and now glad I did! It's a wonderful rifle and I even now have a DPMS 7.62 w/20" HB!

All this to say I keep a 30 rd mag in my 5.56 for things that go bump in the night as it is probably one of the best urban combat weapons in the world today. Build your own rifle,it is not hard and will educate you on the working of your rifle!

[Groovy]

Coyote/groundhog rifle. Not much use for hunting larger game.
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