Black Powder Rifles

[Rafe Covington]

Perhaps one of you gentlemen can tell me why blackpowder rifle matches do not have a different class for other rifles. I have an encore rifle that I shoot 45-70 and 50-90 calibers in. We would abide by the same rules as everybody else, not everybody has the money to buy a Sharps rifle. I would just be very interested in everybodys opinion. Thank You.:drinks:

[iron mule]

hello Buffalohunter not an expert about the rules on this but to the best of my understanding when the game of shooting black powder was introduced or thought about it was based around the use of origanal or replica of bp long guns // as to the cost of these guns if you shop around you can find some good deals on some good guns but take my advice steer away from the cheaper ones ///// hope this will help you////////mule

[oneokie]

Read the NRA rules for BPCR matches and you will be enlightend. Single shot rifles-original or correct copy thereof. Lever guns are side matches.

[waksupi]

I was somewhat involved in running matches in Virginia City Montana, back about 25 years ago, and there was a lot of leeway at that time about what was on the line. The thing was, to build interest back then.
I've worked the old Hooterville shoot, and go rubber neck, and maybe shoot a few rounds, at Lone Tree every year. What things boil down to, if you have more classes, you need more people, to do score keeping, spotting, whatever. And, as with any shoot run by volunteers, there ain't many to be had. So, the shoot must be limited to prevent getting overwhelmed. I have dropped out of some shoots, because of too many people on the line, and relays not being run efficiently.
If you want to start matches for other types of firearms, have at it. I'm sure you will gain a large following, in short order.
I guess I should add, in some areas, there are some elitist snobs, who just don't want "those" rifles shot there. Usually can be identified by costume by Republic Pictures, circa 1934.

[montana_charlie]

I have an encore rifle that I shoot 45-70 and 50-90 calibers in.
I believe many matches have rules which allow 'other rifles' to be shot and scored...just not shot for 'official' score.

For the rest of the rules, they primarily establish the 'class' of rifle that can compete. To assure some degree of fairness to all, the class must be so clearly defined that all rifles have about the same 'disadvantages'.

If the stock geometry of the Encore is not better than most BPCR replicas, I would be surprised...and if your lock time isn't a lot better than a Sharps, I would be amazed.
CM

[Rafe Covington]

Thanks, gonna movin to Great Falls in April 2009.:drinks:

[northmn]

You kind of touched on a sore spot with me. When I shot muzzleloaders in matches and hunted with them more, we held to rules concerning rifle type. The TC "Hawken" and others were really not replicas of anything (especially not of a Hawken) They stayed in the spirit of the game and were allowed. When we worked with the MN DNR to get a special hunting season, we assumed that it would be for historical weapons. You cannot even find a classic muzzle loader in a sporting goods store nor do the clerks know the first thing about shooting one or real black powder. Most people that want to get into muzzle-loading do so in that manner. Matches are the only place one can meet with people that still want to shoot the real thing with the real ammunition. I have a H & R "Buffalo" 45-70 that likely would not be allowed at a match for score. It has an open hammer and a 30 inch barrel and offers no advantage over a Rolling Block. While it does kind of give the same flavor for hunting and at least offer the same achievement as with a Sharps, I would not blame them if they did not allow it for matches as it would be out of place as it is not a historical reproduction of anything. When you start making exceptions, exceptions have a habit of increasing until you lose the nature of the sport until someone wonders why he cannot build up a 700 Rem action with a bull barrel and a thumbhole stock to stand on the line to shoot against a Sharps. I never was a "buckskinner" and could care less about Disney costuming or dragging tepee poles around, but I enjoyed shooting the repos of classic historical arms and talking to others that did. BP cartridge is by its nature a place to shoot historical arms or their reproduction. While it may cost more than some of us can afford, its best if they would leave it that way. There are a lot of sports I really cannot afford, but it is not up to the sponsors to bend because I do not wish to conform.

Northmn

[Rafe Covington]

I can't speak as to what happened to you with the muzzle loader, whether blackpowder cartridges want to or not they seem to be a group of elitist. I have never shot black powder cartridge match but have been to a couple of matches, I got the impression that if you weren't adoring fan of the Sharps rifle you were just wasting there valuable time.
I was asked to leave the Sharps site because I questioned about the cost and the elitist attitude of Sharps shooters. I do not mean to knock anybody or say there way of thinking is wrong. I just think if you allowed other single shot rifles with iron sites with factory stocks and forends you would gain alot of new shooters to participation in the sport.
Sorry for being long winded.:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

buffalohunter,
I am BPCR shooter, and shoot a Sharps rifle, though not an American made one. I'll overlook your belief that makes me an elitist. I have also never attended a BPCR match, so I have (so far) avoided being thrown together with that type of elitist.
I shoot on my own property (up to now) and compete against the last target I fired at.

That makes me an outsider who really has no stake in whether or not you are ever allowed to shoot your Encore in a BPCR match.
However, if I ever wish to compete, I'll know be allowed to enter a BPCR match...because I have a BPCR rifle.

Perhaps your definition of 'BPCR' would enlighten us...and thereby explain why you feel an Encore is appropriate for use in a match designed for BPCR firearms.

What does 'BPCR' mean to you?

CM

[Boz330]

I can't speak as to what happened to you with the muzzle loader, whether blackpowder cartridges want to or not they seem to be a group of elitist. I have never shot black powder cartridge match but have been to a couple of matches, I got the impression that if you weren't adoring fan of the Sharps rifle you were just wasting there valuable time.
I was asked to leave the Sharps site because I questioned about the cost and the elitist attitude of Sharps shooters. I do not mean to knock anybody or say there way of thinking is wrong. I just think if you allowed other single shot rifles with iron sites with factory stocks and forends you would gain alot of new shooters to participation in the sport.
Sorry for being long winded.:drinks:

I'm quite surprized that you found that attitude. The times that I have been at official matches as a spectator and as a contestant the guys that I talked to were as amiable as you could ask for, not unlike this board. There are probably some places that you could shoot your Encore, but the sport and rules are based around the 19th century buffalo and target rifles. I don't shoot a Sharps, but a Highwall and have never been discriminated against. But it is within the parameters of the rules.
I have seen in Black Powder Cartridge News where one club has a class for Smokeless and other rifles to encourage participation, but that is their choice. There are some advantages to arms other than originals and loads and you can't expect them to compete, giving that much advantage away.
As Waksupi pointed out it is tough to get volunteers for regular matches let alone adding more classes that complicate the scoring even more. I think that if you save up (as I had to do) and get a BPCR you would really enjoy it. As someone pointed out though, don't go to cheap.
I don't Know for sure but I think that the H&R Buffalo Classic is a legal BPCR, and reasonably priced. Just a thought.

Bob

[EDK]

There is a pretty wide umbrella at the Quigley in Forsyth MT. Single loaded lever actions and muzzle loaders were on the line, as well as various Sharps, Rolling Blocks, Ballards, etc. If you want to shoot vintage type rifles and have a good time, this is it. There isn't any money to win and not a great amount of recognition, but a lot of nice regular people. I'd like to meet Mike Venturino, Steve Brooks, Steve Garbe, et al, but the big guys are at a match somewhere else that counts on a national level. They are the ones who are losing big time...a chance to say hi to their readers and admirers and just have fun for a change. It might be a nice change compared to the b-----ing you hear about conditions at Raton and the Nationals, etc. etc.

The rules for the more formal competitions sometimes amaze me. The weight limit, for instance. I have a 13+ pound 50/90 SHILOH LRX and there is mention in GETTING A STAND about Jim White's three 16 pound 50/90s. I guess the real problem is the rules are established and then some SOB starts figuring out how to get around them somehow. The CAS people talk about "spirit of the game."

I don't know who you are or what you did to aggravate the people at Shiloh, but there's some people over there who tend to "rawhide" anyone who doesn't agree with them. You must have really excelled at stirring the pot! Anybody who could p--- off a couple of them that come to mind (first initial K!) would have really achieved!

:redneck: :cbpour:

[jodoak]

I normally don't do much posting on these sights but this thread peaked my interest. I guess you might call me one of those elitists. I am a match director for one of the BPCR Silhouette matches held in the eastern US. I have been in this game for about 7 years now and I can tell you one thing. I have never shot with a nicer group of indivduals. No one yet, and I have met many of the top shootists in this sport, including Garbe, have ever given me the impression of being part of the elite. On the contrary, most of them are willing to teach you all the ins and outs giving you even what you would think is their secret information on shooting.

You must of done something to really upset some BPCR shooters or they weren't true believers in Black Powder Shooting. Now if you want to mingle with some true elitists go to a World IBO competition.

John

[Buckshot]

..............If you're talking BPCR Silhuette the rules were set so race guns wouldn't appear. It was desired that typical rifles used during the heyday of the great buffalo kill off would be the only ones allowed. Some rifles that would be allowed, and were fairly common during that time won't be found at silhuette matches. While they share the same actions, the many 50-70's used to kill buffalo just aren't competitive. Not that they aren't allowed. Ditto the trapdoors. I think by the 3rd national match there wasn't a TD to be seen.

A couple others of that era that would be competitive but don't meet the rules is the 577-450 Martini and the 1871 and 1871/84 Mauser rifles.

................Buckshot

[The Double D]

Bottom line, the BPCR Silhouette guys wanted a game for their guns so they created one. My beloved Martini's are of the same era as their guns, and they will not allow me to play their game.

So I have been playing my own game--Martini Playday. Boz has been to one. I retire in three months. I am going to have more time to work on expanding my Playdays.

You can do the same thing. Don't sit around and complain about there being no game for your gun. Start your on BPCTC Matches. All it takes is one person to get things going, be that person.

[montana_charlie]

I thought I recognized that username from someplace...

Do you guys remember this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10351 ?

In it, several of us tried to caution a BPCR newby (a real newby who was just in the process of choosing his first rifle) about the recoil he could expect from a 45/120.

Our friend, buffalohunter, contributed once to the thread with...

It must be hell to be afraid of recoil, who knows maybe Sharps will build you guys a 22 lr. That should not bother you folks. Me I got a 45-110 and I don't consider the recoil bad, am having a 45-120 built and I will not be afraid to shoot it.

You folks have a good day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, apparently he has exactly the right equipment to compete in a BPCR match, and all of this discussion about using Thompson Center 'switch-barrel pistols' for BPCR shooting is just a subject for speculative conversation.

It has been interesting...
CM

[The Double D]

Well CM, to be fair he doesn't say he has a BPCR qualified rifle. But...I do see you point very clearly.

[Rafe Covington]

I did have one but was forced to sell it for financial reasons, I wanted to keep shooting BPCR at a less expensive level. Not everybody has 1200 to 1500 dollars to spend on a "replica rifle" to shoot matches. I Hope that answers your question Montana Charlie.:drinks:

[Don McDowell]

Perhaps one of you gentlemen can tell me why blackpowder rifle matches do not have a different class for other rifles. I have an encore rifle that I shoot 45-70 and 50-90 calibers in. We would abide by the same rules as everybody else, not everybody has the money to buy a Sharps rifle. I would just be very interested in everybodys opinion. Thank You.:drinks:

Back when they set the rules for NRA BPCR Sillouette they needed to make some sort of cutoff, so they set it at somewhere around 1910, or so, and also set the exposed hammer deal which shutoff Brochards, Martini's and others. Your encore won't fit the time period.

There are however lots of Buffalo Type matches that you could shoot your encore in. I think however you'll have a hell of a time getting a sight on that thing that'll let you shoot to 1000 yds with solid repeatable accuracy.

Sell the Encore by a used Italian import and go shoot BPCR if its something you really want to do.