Solar power?

[Duckiller]

Had a young man come visit to sell me solar power. I invited him but he was a total idiot who only lightly understood what he was selling. I sent him away. My question is "Is domestic solar power a good or bad thing?" My electric bill averages about $200.00 per month. Comments on solar power in an urban enviroment are welcome. I am not going off the grid.

[geargnasher]

If your average bill is $200/month in SoCal, I'd say you're doing a lot of things right already.

I'm assuming you're considering a grid-tie system that supplements your regular power, with no battery backup? That would be the least expensive and most effective route. With such a system you have little maintenance to worry about and will get the most "bang for your buck". There are also tax incentives. But you're still not going to see returns on the investment for a lot of years, speaking strictly from a financial standpoint. However, if the southern states had more solar supplements it would seriously reduce the grid loads during the day in the summer months.

Gear

[AlaskanGuy]

Cant hurt a thing, but there are many components you will need to integrate a system into your home.... I would suggest checking out home power magazine http://www.homepower.com

I have tons of resources on alternative energy... All the systems are very similar with the exception of whatever you actually use to generate the electricity, weather it is solar, hydro, or wind generated...

A good person to talk to is a member here named Grumpa... He lives off solar completely....

AG

[Crawdaddy]

It can be a good thing. The short answer is it depends.

In my area you enter into a contract with the power company and they pay you a certain amount per kwh. In my area it is15 cents. You can get a 4 year pay back more or less. There are many variables, how much energy you consume, how much energy your system produces, grid tie only or back up batteries and inverter, installation costs.

If nothing breaks down, it is profit after that.

With a grid tie system only, if your power goes out in the area you live in, so does yours. So there is no back power without batteries and a transfer switch and inverter.

[hicard]

I just bought into solar and have just completed my first month on solar. So far, I am very happy with it. I had to do something as my electric bill was over $400 a month and has been up to $640 in the summer. This first electric bill I just paid, $4.29. I realize that it will probably take me 9-10 years to break even, if I live that long but, after that, it is all free. I am finding out that rain/clouds really cut down on my electric production but when the sun is out, look out.

[MtGun44]

I designed and built a solar powered house in the mountains in Colorado in 1995, have
been using it since. One charge controller failure cost me a set of batteries, other than
that almost 20 yrs of free power. Spent last week there.

Only makes economic sense in certain situations. In my case, it would have cost
$28,000 to connect to the grid back then. Cheap and easy now, haven't bothered,
no need. You have to realize the limitations of solar power, which are substantial,
but it can be useful in certain situations. Biggest question is: Is it economically
a good idea. Tech is fine, costs are rarely worth doing without substantial
tax credits or similar phony accounting. Straight up economics ONLY work in
remote areas where there are no or extremely expensive alternatives.

Bill

[JeffinNZ]

My laundry drier is wind and solar powered. :-)

[GRUMPA]

Solar?...Ole Gear has it pretty well said. CA has I think the best energy buy back program there is. Where I live I think is 1 of the worse, but there isn't any power lines close to me, unless you call 7 miles away close. To have lines brought in the cost would have been somewhere around 1.6mil about 9yrs ago and I don't think it's any cheaper now so I wont even look into it.

We live entirely off grid, batteries the whole thing. I just last week hooked up another inverter and 8 smaller solar panels. It will give us another 700wts when the sun hits them. I wired the new/used inverter to run the shop and the well pump and the original inverter runs the house. These were used at a good price and got all that stuff primarily as a back up in case something went out.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think there are some very good applications of the technology and I'm not opposed to the concept but economics must rule the decision making process. I like some of the aspects of solar power such as: independence, free source of power (not FREE power itself, you have to amortize the initial cost of the system over the life of the system!), reliability, etc. When you look at the overall costs, it generally becomes a little less attractive.
Some applications make very good sense; such as remote power for water pumping, powering remote radio repeaters, electric fences/gates, remote cabins, etc. Until the cost of solar comes down or the cost of grid supplied power goes up........I see it as a supplemental power system at best.

[reloader28]

I've been playing around with a couple of cheap Harbor Freight panels the last year and so far am liking it. It started as back up because the power goes out in the winter and it gets cold without the woodstove fans and 12 volt lights put off nice light.

I put up a 600 watt wind turbine from Missouri Wind a couple weeks ago and 5 more batteries and am planning on a couple more solar panels now from that same company. Also a bigger inverter.

Its nice when the power goes out and we hardly notice.

[10x]

At 56 degrees north and living in a 1000 foot deep valley, the sun rises at 10 am in the winter and coasts along the southern horizon. A 12 watt solar panel will show current at 12:00 noon on December 20th. About 1.5 volts and maybe 500 milliamps. Summer time there is the full 12 watts....

[Frank46]

Don't know how true this is but have heard that the power companies don't like the idea of solar power as less usage for their product costs them more money. But here in Louisiana my bills during the summer run $400 a month. What worries me is putting in a system and having the panels get damaged due to hurricanes and bad storms. Have not heard about how strong the panels are regarding storm damage. Anyway setting up a battery bank with inverter can run big bucks. Frank

[uscra112]

I'm a tech wonk from way back, but as far as solar electricity is concerned, IMHO a full solar house is nothing more than a toy for the smug greenie types who don't have to do the cost-benefit analysis. Deterioration of the panels themselves, the batteries and the electronics will eat you alive eventually, unless you can get the equipment for far, far less $$ than the companies with the slick sales brochures want you to pay.

Best thing I've done to keep my electric bills down is not use so much of it. As few electric appliances as I can get away with, no A/C, wood furnace that's non-electric, propane kitchen stove, etc. Only electric I literally cannot do without would be my well pump. Summer my bill is $60-$80. Winter a little higher, since I have an electric cove radiant in the bathroom.

BTW power companies aren't worried about the lost revenue, (it's microscopic to them) but they ARE getting antsy about all this solar/wind stuff when it feeds back to the grid, because the highly variable input disrupts their generation-plant control algorithms. Power Engineering had an article not six months ago which suggested that as the grid input from solar and wind passes 3%, the probability of blackouts due to solar/wind-induced grid instability in any 30 day period approaches 100%.

[MaryB]

Decent brand name panels have a 20 or 25 year 80% power warranty so deterioration is not a big issue. I currently have 1200 watts of panels feeding a 464 amp hour battery bank. It is my backup power for the very unreliable grid I put up with. This winter we had 9 power outages with the longest over half a day. At -20 the batteries will keep the corn/pellet stove cranking out heat for 20+ hours easy along with power for my ham radio gear and some lighting. Will I ever see payback for it? Probably not but it beats trying to start a generator at -20.

Doubling it to 2400 watts of panels and 924 amp hours of battery to run more of the house. Extra is going to fridge(converted chest freezer) and freezer with an automatic switch from battery to grid at my set voltage. If I am without power for 3+ days like I was after the tornado in 2011 it will keep the freezer frozen and the fridge cold!

[TreeKiller]

Quote;BTW power companies aren't worried about the lost revenue, (it's microscopic to them) but they ARE getting antsy about all this solar/wind stuff when it feeds back to the grid, because the highly variable input disrupts their generation-plant control algorithms.;Quote

Daughter in law works for CAL-ISO and hates wind and solar for this reason. Every thing is fine then the wind stops or you get cloud cover and you have to scramble to find the power.

[Ajax]

I think a nice solar set up is easy to make. I think most people get turned off on the idea due to the price of pre-manufactured panels. If you do some research and are proficient with some hand tools it can be done rather reasonably. I am by far no expert, but i have been reading up and planning on doing a solar set up for when i get home to Texas. So, do some research and find out the info for yourself not what some company says you need.


Andy

[barrabruce]

Yeah I got solar.
End spending my money on a 5 kw system that can only put out 3.5kw max.
Had to get 3 phase installed and spread over 3 controllers.
The panels are arranged so I get more peak out put hrs.

Cost me a bit but in the first year I'm $500 dollars up on my electric bill.(they owe me)
Be interesting to see how long it will take to break even ...cost versus....power used.
We figure about 8 years.
But basically I just paid my power bill for 15 years...I hope.
Since our power has increased 30% in the last few years it may be sooner.
I live in the wet tropics.

Some thing I always wanted to do.
WE are on the grid and basically get 1.5x the suplus power we feed into it.
No good when it rains but.
And no powder when the cyclones wrecks power gid.

Such is live.

No I'm not a been farting greenie either.

One has to figure out all costs involved.

Hopefully over the life of the system We may get our money back...or gain a bit.

Its the only bill that I don't owe nothing on ....and I'm eager to receive in the mail.:grin:

Barra

[WRideout]

A few years ago I spent two weeks at a house on an island in the Bahamas that was off the grid. It had a complete solar system; don't know much about the engineering, and can't remember if the appliances ran off it. Still, it was pretty sizable, and fed a battery bank. It worked for them, but then they get almost continuous sunshine, and it's not feasible to connect to commercial power anyway. They did have to tinker with it now and then to keep things running.

I think solar could work for you, if you limit the applications it has to feed. I wouldn't try to run an entire house with the same load you have now, but it could run a dedicated appliance, or a particular room. Just my two cents.

Wayne

[aspangler]

I have two panels I built myself with battery bank and it works to keep lights and fridge going when the power goes out. Squirrels Love to roast themselves on the power lines around here. Won't run the whole house but is pretty convenient for outages of 3 to four hours or so. I have a light system an a separate receptacle for the fridge from the battery bank and inverter.

[lancem]

I have been living off grid for going on two years now. I was in a no choice area as the closest grid is over 5 miles away. I like it, I have enough power to do anything I want during the day and everything I usually do during the night. My only advice is to buy quality equipment. There are many in this area off grid and I see it over and over again where there are those that buy the cheap equipment, then end up doing it over and over and end up with a lot of expense and still have the cheap stuff that is going to fail. I use all Outback equipment and can say that their warranty and customer service are top drawer.

[Col4570]

One thing to consider,there is an initial High cost for installation.Will you recover those costs and reap the benefits within your life span.

[William Yanda]

My laundry drier is wind and solar powered. :-)


One post or two?

[schutzen]

Couple of things to consider, 1st are there any incentives from the power company or tax breaks (federal & state) and 2nd stay away from overly complex systems. My power provider has no incentives and the tax breaks are not enough to justify the investment. My neighbors (10 miles away) are on a different power system that offered incentives for grid-tied solar systems. Several have installed systems and are happy with them. However, one installed a systems that tracks the sun. It is great when it works, but after 6 months of use it is only functional 60-70% of the time. His payback will be considerably longer and much more frustrating than those that chose the less efficient, but more reliable fixed panel systems oriented to the sun's arc. If I was eligible for both incentives and tax breaks, I would try it.

[MtGun44]

One commenter mentioned "panel deterioration". Only familiar with mine, but they were bought
used from a huge CA solar farm that was broken up and scrapped as soon as the 1990s tax
credits ran out.

Zero panel deterioration in almost 20 years at 10,000 MSL in Colorado. Still get 2.2 amps per panel
rated and first delivered in 1995 or 1996, forget exactly when they went online.

I have moved all that I can off of electricity, only used electrons for what ONLY they can do, or
do the most conveniently -TV, computers, phones, lights, water pump, power tools. Refrig is
propane, water heater propane, wood heat with propane backup (essentially never used).

Only makes sense where you can get some silly government subsidies, tax credits, grants or
other distortions in the economics - OR where mains power is expensive, difficult or impossible
to obtain. Economics gets steadily better as government piddles billions into this stuff (lots
of scamming by huge companies, eating gigantic government grants and then bankruptcy)
but still not really cost effective if you can buy power.

One thing the greenies are trying to do - since all the alternate energy stuff is NOT ECONOMICAL,
you simple force the cost of conventional power (shut down coal plants, stop drilling as much as
possible -which is not working as well as they would like - and stop the Keystone Pipeline, just
generally obstruct cheap conventional power) to increase massively the cost of conventional
power.

See - when your "conventional" electric bill is really, really high - then their silly solar and such
look so much more reasonable. It really is a scam.

I have an all solar vacation home because it actually made economic sense where I am
located. Works in many sunny climates where it is hard to get normal power. In less sunny
places where mains power is available - not too competitive, even with subsidies.

Bill

[MT Gianni]

We spend $45 when we are not watering and $60 a month when we are. I have held off making an offer on property I would love as it is off Elec grid and while I might be OK with home usage I have not seen a 240 V set up to pump household water with.

[MtGun44]

MT Gianni

No problem getting a 240 VAC inverter, but the problem is the power needs of pumping can be huge. How
deep is your well and how many GPH do you need on the 24 hr average? Straightforward calc to see how
much panel size and inverter capacity you need. I run off of a cistern because the pumping costs for a 250 ft
well were immense, we get the cistern filled for a reasonable price about every year. Very little pumping from
a cistern located higher than the house - just to move it thru the pipes. Your $15/mo differential is so low that
you couldn't afford to justify any solar system. That is only $180/year if you did it every month and you probably
do not. In 10 years, only $1800, for any significant solar system with an inverter, the payout would be decades
to break even.

uscra - "BTW power companies aren't worried about the lost revenue, (it's microscopic to them) but they ARE getting antsy about
all this solar/wind stuff when it feeds back to the grid, because the highly variable input disrupts their generation-plant control
algorithms. Power Engineering had an article not six months ago which suggested that as the grid input from solar and wind
passes 3%, the probability of blackouts due to solar/wind-induced grid instability in any 30 day period approaches 100%. "

YES _ this is a BIG DEAL. A friend recently retired from the power industry. He says that they only have windmills because of
green groups blackmail. Literally - they sue to stop EVERY SINGLE maintenance change in their power plants, severely costing
and disrupting. After years of this legalized extortion -with no basis in any kind of safety or anything - just with intent to harass into
submission - the power companies have agreed to buy certain amounts of wind power AT EXERBITANTLY HIGH PRICES - to keep these
BS lawsuits away. Pure blackmail. In any case - they have discovered that the wind blows most reliably at night - when there is
massive excesses of power anyway. One thing he pointed out is that INDUSTRY uses power, not homes. Homes are a minor blip
and a PITA for power companies, the main power users are large industry. When they are shut down at night and this stupid wind
power comes on line (randomly) they have to dial down their coal, gas and nuke plants below their most optimum minimum
operating level and it actually causes inefficiencies and some damage to the thermal plants to run them so low.

Part of the reason your power bills are so unbelievably high are all the solar, wind and such that is being put on the grid. Coal
power costs something in the 7-8 cents per KWH range, our own KS Burlington Nuke plant (best run in the country, I have
been told) is in the 6 cent range, and while they make it extremely difficult to find actual numbers, apparently the wind power
costs in the 20 cents or more range and apparently solar, too. They muddle it severely with subsidies for making panels and
windmills, subsidies for installing and tax breaks - very hard to work out an accurate actual cost, but all the green power is
a big piece of why your electric bills are rising, but forcing coal off the list is a MAJOR factor in high electric bills. When
coal plants are shut down, they are usually replaced with natural gas - which is far more expensive.

As I said, the greenies LOVE it when cheap coal "goes away" - making expensive alternate energy more competitive.

Bill

[GRUMPA]

We pump our water but we use a 1/2HP single phase pump. A lot of folks up here have wells but for some unknown reason they have to run a generator because it's a 240V pump. Most folks here have just the minimum amount of solar panels to run there place.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/grumpaboo/SolarArray520x390.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/grumpaboo/LoadCenter520x390.jpg

We have our well pumping into a 2,500Gal water tank, that way if it fails we aren't without water. From the tank we have a line that runs into our pressure tank that has a switch on it so we can shut it off at night since gravity works well and even when you flush the toilet it still fills up. Not only that we have a back up pump and I ran the pump in the well with poly pipe so I can get my tractor and haul it up and replace it myself.

240V pumps will draw a lot of power depending on how big of a pump and how many feat of head it has to pump. Something like that can be worked around a bit.

[garym1a2]

Simple math, will you spend 30 to 40K to save $200 per month?
Had a young man come visit to sell me solar power. I invited him but he was a total idiot who only lightly understood what he was selling. I sent him away. My question is "Is domestic solar power a good or bad thing?" My electric bill averages about $200.00 per month. Comments on solar power in an urban enviroment are welcome. I am not going off the grid.

[Just Duke]

You could not afford a system to run AC in a 4000 sq ft home in the desert of CA. You would be pushing 100K
Set aside you might get sued in sued happy state for blocking some idiots view or some other silly frivolous excuse.
Anyway Iron Edison Batteries are the best on the market along with Kyocera Solar Panels.
If your planning the SHTF scenario then you will need to back up inverters in the box if the functioning ones goes tango uniform.

[fastfire]

My power bill is less than 40.00 month.


Had a young man come visit to sell me solar power. I invited him but he was a total idiot who only lightly understood what he was selling. I sent him away. My question is "Is domestic solar power a good or bad thing?" My electric bill averages about $200.00 per month. Comments on solar power in an urban enviroment are welcome. I am not going off the grid.

[Just Duke]

My power bill is less than 40.00 month.

How big is your house?

[w5pv]

The first few years that I lived was without electric power,We used kerosene lamps for the most part but had gas for cooking.Gasoline powered washing machine.But we made it fine.I sometimes wonder how a lot of the young would make it without the gagets that they have today.The gas I am talking about was butane and propanes.

[fastfire]

1800sqft I use propane for hot water and wood for heat. Have a window air conditioner for cool in summer.



How big is your house?

[Just Duke]

1800sqft I use propane for hot water and wood for heat. Have a window air conditioner for cool in summer.

It's close to $250.00 here

[Beerd]

you guys pay $15 a day for power? :holysheep
..

[CGT80]

We have 60 solar panels on our roof. The house is 2500-3000 sq. ft. and has two ac units. The garage/workshop has an ac/heat pump unit. The shop is used just about every day. We open the roll up door when the weather is nice and run the AC when it is hot or cold. Our electric bill is like $30 per year. We are tied to the grid. Our meter runs backwards when we produce more than we use. Edison will not pay us for making power, so we went just big enough to meet our expected future needs. We did have to put in a new inverter recently. We went from 3 inverters to a newer single, big, inverter that is more efficient.

Tree branches and dirt are a problem. We have to keep the trees trimmed back from near the panels and we have to wash the panels at least every few months. The glass gets dirty just like the windshield of a car, and the wattage is reduced. We watch the readout on the inverter to see if output is normal for a sunny day, then take care of any issues if needed.

[Just Duke]

We have 60 solar panels on our roof. The house is 2500-3000 sq. ft. and has two ac units. The garage/workshop has an ac/heat pump unit. The shop is used just about every day. We open the roll up door when the weather is nice and run the AC when it is hot or cold. Our electric bill is like $30 per year. We are tied to the grid. Our meter runs backwards when we produce more than we use. Edison will not pay us for making power, so we went just big enough to meet our expected future needs. We did have to put in a new inverter recently. We went from 3 inverters to a newer single, big, inverter that is more efficient.

Tree branches and dirt are a problem. We have to keep the trees trimmed back from near the panels and we have to wash the panels at least every few months. The glass gets dirty just like the windshield of a car, and the wattage is reduced. We watch the readout on the inverter to see if output is normal for a sunny day, then take care of any issues if needed.

What would that currently cost if you installed it yourself?

[MT Gianni]

We are gas heavy users as I have serviced gas appliances for many years. Nat gas boiler, water heater, grill, dryer, range and fireplace. We pay $78 mo flat rate for 1500 sq ft up and 1500 sq ft down. I have never owned or ran AC in 37 years of marriage other than in a car. Currently use a 1 1/4 hp pump for water. I might scale down to 1 hp and I wanted at least 1500 gallon storage if I went on that property. It is 75" higher than a river on the other side of the road so I don't believe the well would be overly deep. Still a dream but I will list where we are soon and look harder. I am on a private airport and pilots and their egos argue to much as well as being in a HOA. Nothing gets done.

[CGT80]

What would that currently cost if you installed it yourself?

I am not sure. I think it was about $50k originally with around 50% in rebates. That may have been up to ten years ago. The rebates were reduced right after we got ours. The house is my dad's and he installed it with some help from my mom and our neighbors. I think I was working when he did it so I only helped with a small portion of it. It wasn't all that hard to install. My dad knows how to do basic electrical and is pretty good with electronics, motors, and electrical theory/circuitry. I did construction work for years and have done a lot of electrical work, so we have no problem with trouble shooting any problems or installing the equipment.

The new panels are probably more efficient. I want to say our system was setup to put out 6k watts. The solar/alternative energy thing is my dad's baby. As long as it works, I don't think much about it, other than to help wash panels or troubleshoot if needed. Our first inverters had some known failure points that the factory updated. I don't think they made a good permanent fix, and we ended up getting a new inverter. As long as it runs right, the only maintenance is cleaning the panels, unless the new ones are immune to dirty glass. We use a big scrub brush on a pole that extends up to 16'. We should have left a row of panels out on the biggest section to make it easier to clean them.

[MtGun44]

MT Gianni- if you had a 20 ft lift and wanted to be able to do a shower head at 3 gpm,
that puts some parameters (maybe wrong ones!) on the problem. 3 gal * 8 lb/gal
is 24 lb/minute * 20 ft = 480 ft-lb/min a HP = 550 ft-lb/min so this is 0.87 HP.
Basically a 1 hp pump would do it. 1 HP at 120VAC is 746 watts, so you would
pull 6.2 amps. If the run is long to the well, you may get enough power drop to
need larger than normal wire size (expensive) or may want to go to 240VAC (need
an inverter that puts out 240 VAC) to drop current to 3.1 amps since power lost in
the wire is the square of the amps. So a 240 VAC at half the amps will lose 1/4 the
power in the wire. Of course, if the power loss is small anyway, no need to cut it
to 1/4th. How long a run from the power source to the pump - horizontal and
vertical (down hole) together? AC motors have large surge currents, and low
voltage due to surge can prevent the pump from starting. I'd call a pump
supply place and tell them you want a 1 hp pump XXX ft from the power source
in a YY deep well and what would the pump maker recommend. MAY be OK
at 120 VAC with big enough wire.

Many times it makes more sense to have a very small well pump feeding a large
storage tank and then the pressure pump can be at the house, very short wire
runs and much less of a deal. The down hole pump can be 25 gallons per HOUR
which will give you 600 gal per day, but only pump at 0.4 gpminute. This is
about 1/8 of the power draw of the 3 gpm pump (directly feeding the house
needs) so the wire size can be much smaller or the run much longer. So your
storage tank idea is a sound one. Depending on your projected avg use in
24 hrs you need to figure how many hours of sun (avg over a week) you will
get and make the pump able to meet your 24 hr water needs with 8 hrs (or
whatever) of sun per day.

Since I am only lifting a couple feet from my cistern, my 3 gpm flow in the
house comes from a tiny 12VDC RV pressure pump. Draws about 7 amps at
12 volts, only about 1/10th of a HP. You could have the same with a storage
tank system. 1/10th HP for pressure pump, maybe similar for the well pump,
but with larger lift, much less flow - necessitating the storage tank.

Bill

[MaryB]

They do make DC well pumps that can run directly off a solar array. Gets around that large inverter need.

[Just Duke]

They do make DC well pumps that can run directly off a solar array. Gets around that large inverter need.

Thanks Mary that's good to hear.

[Petrol & Powder]

There are a lot of different ways to meet household power needs and I like the fact that intelligent and creative people can find multiple solutions to those challenges.
Lighting can be provided by kerosene, gas, electric or other methods. Bulbs can be incandescent, LED, 12 volt, 120 volt, etc.
Refrigeration can be provided by 120 volt AC, 12 volt DC or absorption refrigerators fueled by propane, natural gas or kerosene.
Heat my be provided by solar, wood, fossil fuels, etc.
Water can be heated by solar, wood, gas, electric, etc.

The one system that seems to be the major difficulty is running water. It takes a fair amount of power to push water out of a deep well and more power to pressurize the household system. Unless you have some gravity feed system that has a reservoir at a higher elevation from the house, most of us need to lift water AND provide some pressure to the plumbing system. You can expend a great deal of energy to power a 240 AC volt submersible pump to lift and pressurize water in one step. It's not terribly efficient but it can be accomplished. Another technique is to split the functions in two and use one low volume, low voltage pump to push the water to a tank on the surface and another small pump the pressurize the system. The major drawback to the two pump/intermediary tank method would be freezing temperatures at the tank location.

There are some smart folks out there and I always like to hear from them.

[reloader28]

Last year we put in a hand pump. It goes right in the well case along the electric pump and looks like an old fashion pump.
I would have to ask the brand as I dont remember.
I think you can get these to go a little over 100' deep. Ours is at about 65-70' and it works fine.
We've used it a couple times when the power went out so we could feed the critters in the barnyard.
After pumping 20 gallons your arms do get tired, but you get used to it, it works and we are never without water.
This might work good for some of you too. I figure if we need to shower if the SHTF, I would pull the 12 volt pump and shower head from the camper.

[shunka]

We can't deal with the summer heat , so I put in "minisplit" aircon units for each room. only turn on what is needed. even so As our electric rates approach 20c per kwh I am planning on getting perhaps 5kw of panels to reduce the summer bills - Our local Public Utilty was bought out by a national corp. First the rates rose, then they introduced "tiered rates" then the rates continued to rise. worst case was $380 one month. If it works out well I will add more next year.


They do make DC well pumps that can run directly off a solar array. Gets around that large inverter need.

Our 30+ year old ~450 foot deep submersible well pump died last year. We already have a 2000 gal tank with an ozone generator cleaning out the iron & sulpher and taking several points off the hardness. So I had the well guy put in a new Grundfos "Solar Ready" deep well pump, I think ~ 1.5 hp. It cost maybe $400 or $500 more than a regular pump, and is said to be "top of the line". Right now I have it running on 240v from the grid but This summer I plan to convert it over to solar panels. It will run on 30-300 vdc , and can fill the the 2000 gal tank during the day and that will certainly sustain us through every night lol. The house is pressurized on a 120 v Grundfos "booster pump" in the garage "utility room", then I run the water thru a 10 micron carbon whole house filter.

http://www.amazon.com/Grundfos-MQ3-45-Pressure-Booster-115-volt/dp/B009NXQ20W/ref=sr_1_5?m=A3VZKCC6J065JE&s=merchant-items&ie=UTF8&qid=1395987976&sr=1-5

http://www.solar-electric.com/grsoposuwapu.html
http://us.grundfos.com/products/find-product/sqflex.html

hope this helps.
shunka

[MtGun44]

Grundfos is top quality, not cheap. Makes no difference what you use - it just takes a lot of power
to lift large quantities of water from 450 ft deep. A 1.5 hp pump for a 450 ft lift will supply at most
1.8 lbs per minute. This is just over 1/5th of a gallon per minute, or 13.75 gallons per hour. So in
an 8 hour day, expect about 110 gallons - MAXIMUM. This is assuming no efficiency losses in the
motor or pump or piping, and there ARE losses. If you get more than this it is because the pump
is more than 1.5 HP. Realistically, a 1.5 hp pump and system will probably only deliver about 75-80%
of this, or 75.-85 gallons per 8 hour day.

1.5 HP is 1119 watts, so you need this much solar to run the pump. A quick look on Amazon shows
250 watt panels for $365, so you would need 5 of these, at least, which is $1825 initial investment in
panels - add wiring, mounting structure and controls, probably $2500 in parts or more for this, plus
installation if you can't do it yourself. But, once you pay the cost - you get free pumping for many years
as long as the sun shines.

Bill

[MaryB]

Can do much better pricing than that from a solar dealer http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Panels-&-Systems-Solar-Panels-By-The-Pallet/c1_250/p2768/10-pcs-LG/Solar-Cynergy-270W-24V-MONO-LG270-Solar-Panels/product_info.html 72 cents a watt by the pallet plus shipping. Then add in a charge controller and inverter if needed, batteries...

[leadman]

A little off subject but I hate running a generator on our old motorhome so decided to experiment with solar. I bought the kit from Harbor Freight as it was cheap, had all the components and I had a gift card to cover part of the cost. Had 2 group 29 batteries and one set of panels for 45 watts. Did not quite do the job so added 5 led lights to use in place of the incandesant 12v. This saved me about 3 amps.
I then added another battery and another set of panels. This is working as we have boondocked several times with no need to use the generator at all.
I recently replaced the added led lights with led panel lights in the original fixtures.
This won't allow the roof top ac to be used but the fridge is powered by 12v, 110v, or propane with 12v controls. The propane forced air furnace can be run as needed even in December at 7,000 feet elevation along with a small tv.
I am thinking of adding another 100w panel to the motor home and using it to power the lights and small tools in my garage where I cast, reload, etc. This way I make the investment in solar pay me back sooner. It would be easy to do with either adding 12v led lights and a small inverter or tie into the separate fuse box that exists for the garage. The motor home is parked 10 feet from the garage and a plug in arrangement would be easy to do.

I did have a very young guy come around one day and tried to get me to invest in solar for the house. He said it would cost me about $25,000 to do it. I told him I did the motor home for around $200. He walked away.

The VA hospital here in Phoenix installed covered parking in their lots that consists of very large solar panels and some large equipment housings about the size of a 20' rv trailer. Don't know any specifics on the cost or how much power it puts out but the size of the cabling is impressive. Nice to park in the shade in the summer also.

[orisolo]

Guys, Do some research and order direct buy from overseas (China).
These systems are not so hard to install unless you afraid of heights.

A system can be purchased directly from china for about $4-$7k depend on how many Watts you need.
If you can install it, that's cheap same systems are installed for 25k-40k by local contractors.

Some things to watch out for, Who make the panels, are the panels made form recycled Silicon or new?
Recycled silicon doesn't hold for more then few years, it cracks (it comes from scrap material of the semi-conductor industry).

Look for local state and federal incentives.
Make sure there are quota left for you when you file.
See if there is incentive from your local grid provider.
See what is the "buy back" of your grid? (Most will not pay you but will give you credit for future use (Nights, winters, etc)


Other alternatives to look for:
There are groups of investors that invest in solar for homes.
They will install a system free of charge for a flat electricity bill.
While you don't get away from having a bill it could be cut in half at no cost to you.
These investors are turning into Utility provider with a steady income.
How they know you will pay your bills? well if you don't pay them you will pay double to the grid or leave in the dark.

I was reading somewhere that Google owners and some other rich folks are doing this setup to whole neighborhoods in CA.

[orisolo]

Prices of panels in China are $0.60-$0.90 per watt (I'm still getting emails sometimes).
The more power you get from a panel the higher the watt price.
So 2 panels of 150W will cost you less then 1 panel of 300W but will take more space.

Wholesale prices of panels in CA are $1.25-$1.75 per watt.

Local installer companies are making $10k-$25k per residential install, you can save that

My pricing information is mostly update to early last year.
I'm not involved in solar business these days.
Prices of solar went down big in the last few years when the struggling EU economy had to cancel huge incentives they gave in the past.
There is to much inventory these days which drive the price low.

When calculating the costs don't forget to incl. the peripherals.
Which is the hookup to the grid, the inverter, Power panel etc...

[shdwlkr]

The last time I looked at solar power the whole thing would cost 7 times more than all the electric power that the system could produce. May have changed but I don't think so.

I can get a diesel generator and power my needs for less and that includes all that maintenance on the diesel and fuel. Nope not ready to jump in but just spec'd the system recently and I can still save money with diesel generator and battery storage banks.

Just another way of looking at making your own power and not the power company. Would work for everyone nope, but neither will solar power. I do think we need to look at optional sources of power instead of the electric companies. I have even looked at wind power and if I find a place that this makes sense it will be put in along with diesel generator.

I can deal with the cost of diesel as it will be purchased in thousands of gallons the only way to buy it anymore. You get a small price break but it adds up when you look at the long term price fluctuations at the pump.

Glad to see so many are interested in other ways of making electric power other than power companies.

[MaryB]

Solar Boulevard is out of CA and they have some of the best prices on the net, also they are a decent company to work with. I had one panel arrive broken and they had a replacement out in 3 days so I could keep my installation on schedule(had help coming for the weekend as long as I fed them BBQ).

[starmac]

Lots of people are off grid here, nobody uses a gen set if they can get electricity.

As far as water goes, I built a 40,000 gallon storage tank for a water well that was totally solar powered. It was a deep well with a submersible pump 220 volt. I don't know the exact depth. People lived for many years with well houses with a storage tank providing gravity feed pressure for the house pressure, It worked, and it didn't take much of an engineer to dream it up, I reckon we could probably do it now too. lol

[AlaskanGuy]

I myself, live in a very wet, rainy place, and am planning to move next year back down to SE alaska where it rains even more then it does here in cordova.. Solar is not really a viable option for us here, but hydro is... Same principle as solar as far as inverters and such go, but using the thousands of small streams that run most of the year, hydro and rain collection is the norm.. Pelton wheels produce very well, and are fairly easy to maintain... Most of the cost is assoicated with the cost of PVC pipe and wire, as a permanant magnet hydro system is fairly easy to devise....

100880. 100881

This is what they look like....

AG

[Pinsnscrews]

I think the big thing to look at for Solar is the amount of Southern Exposure you have. A friend of ours was on the ball when she had her new house built. The house is situated so the panels get the maximum possible southern exposure all day. She has batteries and tied to back feed into the grid. The house is now 4 years old, and the payback from the grid provider for her area has already paid off the complete cost of the solar install. She is helping us look I tot he best options for our house. We only want enough solar to power the AC and water heater, our two biggest consumers of electricity. Once the solar is installed, we are replacing our hot water tank with an on demand tankless system already set up for solar. The way our house is situated, we have an excellent southern exposure, so it is possible for our panels to get light from sun up to sun down.

[contender1]

I have read all of the posts here so far with extreme interest. I'll admit to being very uneducated about the use of solar to run things. I want to learn.
Could somebody explain the basic step by step process of how a system works?
If I'm correct, I see solar panels getting the initial energy, sending it to an inverter, then the inverter sends it to a battery that sends it to the necessary appliance. Is this correct?
That doesn't sound quite right as batteries are DC and appliances are AC.
So, does it go from the panels, to the batteries to the inverter to the appliances?
Anything I'm missing?

Next question.
Batteries. What type? Deep cycle Marine ones? Special ones? Can they be bought anywhere?

I'm a total newbie in this, but I have an interest in supplying a small amount of power to remote sheds & a shop on my property. Plus, I'd prefer to have some source of power for some things in an emergency.

Please be kind in your responses, as I'm just trying to learn the "how to's!"

[GRUMPA]

Could somebody explain the basic step by step process of how a system works?
If I'm correct, I see solar panels getting the initial energy, sending it to an inverter, then the inverter sends it to a battery that sends it to the necessary appliance. Is this correct?
That doesn't sound quite right as batteries are DC and appliances are AC.
So, does it go from the panels, to the batteries to the inverter to the appliances?


Solar panels will send the power to the Load controllers (look at my post, the 1 with the pictures). From the Load Controllers power goes to the batteries. From the batteries power goes to the Inverter, from the inverter to my house.

This is a very basic explanation of how it works.

We have enough solar panels to run our heaviest consuming load and them some. Example: The well pump uses 1.3Kw but we have 3Kw in solar panels. When the sun is up a person doesn't get full power from the solar panels till the sun is up high enough, and of course when the sun reaches it's downward arc power from the panels will decrease. That's why I tell people that there's a window of sorts when we can use a lot of power.

We have a 1700AH battery bank, 12-6V batteries hooked in series for 24V. Each battery weighs 127Lbs and they have to be ordered, not to many solar places around here that want that kind of money just sitting on the show room floor. If you order batteries they take less than a week to get here.

Hope that helps....

[AlaskanGuy]

The basic setup goes as follows,

First the power is generated with whatever method is available, like a solar panel... Then that power that is generated flows down the wire to a device called a charge controller... This unit controls how much power goes to the batteries, or diverts the powder to a load dump like a water heater element in the event that the batteries are fully charged, or to the batteries, the power storage tank.... From the batteries, it then goes to an inverter which converts the power to something at you can use, like 120 Ac power to power the house....

Really it is as simple as that.... But there are lots of different ways to get to the end stage, where you are using your generated power... That is where the different components come in.... Like a charge controller that also acts as a inverter, combining the 2 different components into one.... There are a lot of different components that can be used to monitor or divert, or convert energy, but that is where most folks get bogged down. What components are needed, to do what they want to do... Grid tie, stand by, how much AH you need to store for when your solar stuff aint generating power, and what not.... One thing you need to do is understand the terminology, like AH which stands for Amp Hours, usually used when explaining how much reserve power you need durring down time.... Best thing to do is Read, then read some more.... Home power magazine is a great place to start.... But remember when your reading about all of the gadgets and such, that simpler is almost always better, and it doesnt need to be complicated.... Salesmen like to over complicate things as they get lots more money that way, but really you only need a way to produce power, a charge controller, a battery bank, and an inverter.... It really is not all that complicated....

How this helps,

AG

PS.... Our entire community is now powered by hydro power in the summer, spring and fall... About 4 months out of the year we run on generators, but the rest of the time, it is as simple as hydro power...

[PatMarlin]

The thing about solar and alternative energy is it doesn't have to be an all or nothin' deal. As posted you can start small and add as you learn, and as you go.

I bought when panels were over $4.00 a watt, and was off grid for 14 years. Going big on an inverter is the key to expansion.

Replacement costs on inverters is a consideration. And they do need replaced. I had a 4000 watt Siemens inverter like Grumpa above. Rock solid units but unfortunately based on (early) 1990's parts and components that are rare now and extremely hard to find. There are no repair options anymore.

But if you go with a company like Outback, with open architecture, repairs are as simple as pulling slide in circuit boards and sending them to Outback.

I ran my home and machine shop off grid and started Patmarlins there. Now, my on grid costs are 1/4 of what it used to cost me off grid. BUT I still have the Outback inverter I powered my shop with, and I will be setup to run my home and shop in the near future offgrid again. Why? Because I can, and if someone (or mother nature) pulls the plug, I keep living- comfortably.

[PatMarlin]

I myself, live in a very wet, rainy place, and am planning to move next year back down to SE alaska where it rains even more then it does here in cordova.. Solar is not really a viable option for us here, but hydro is... Same principle as solar as far as inverters and such go, but using the thousands of small streams that run most of the year, hydro and rain collection is the norm.. Pelton wheels produce very well, and are fairly easy to maintain... Most of the cost is assoicated with the cost of PVC pipe and wire, as a permanant magnet hydro system is fairly easy to devise....

100880. 100881

This is what they look like....

AG

That is a cool setup! Did you make your Perm Mag Generator? Hydro is the least expensive alt energy source to harness.

[uscra112]

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/maritanoon/2014/03/30/scams-fraud-flourish-in-solar-still-n1816638?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl

[Mal Paso]

Most of the Deals in Solar Panels are for 60 cell Grid Tie Panels. You need 72 cells to charge a 24 Volt OFF Grid system.

A friend had a 1500W solar system installed but the batteries would not charge. Whoever had used Grid Tie panels. It was $600+ for a special charge controller to fix the problem. ( 2 series strings of 3 panels into an Outback FM80 )

[contender1]

MANY thanks for explaining things to me.
All this has taught me several things, and I enjoy the learning process. I also like the hydro power idea as well. We do have a few creeks on my property,,,!
All this has fueled my interests a bit. It's something I've thought about, but didn't know where to go to ask. I'd see power inverters for sale at places like Harbor Freight, and wonder how they can be used & all. But I never see the batteries offered anywhere for this type of system.

Another question.
Batteries.
I see stuff about using "banks of batteries." Can someone simplify how you wire batteries together to get these banks?
I apologize for asking some (probably very basic) questions.

[GRUMPA]

A battery bank is basically a group of batteries hooked up in series mostly. Series is taking the positive cable from 1 battery and connecting it to the negative terminal to the other. What happens is an increase in volts, in my case I took 4 batteries at 6V each and hooked them in series to create 24V DC.

Inverters you need to do your homework on. Those Harbor Freight inverters are OK for a camping trip but there's 3 different types of sine waves inverters can produce, square, modified (modified square wave) and true sine wave. We have the true sine wave inverter which actually makes things run more efficient on our system.

Example: Swamp cooler rated at 5amp 120V AV on low and 7Amps 120V AC on high. Well ours draws 2amps on low and 3amps on high. All of our appliances are high efficiency types (fridge and freezer) and we use very little power at night.

[contender1]

Thanks a bunch. I'm learning,,,,!

[MaryB]

That special charge controller is called MPPT, maximum power point tracking. It tracks the power available from the solar panels and keeps things at maximum efficiency. They can gain you 25% more charge per day over a cheaper PWM(pulse width modulated) charge controller. MPPT is the only way to go, I have a pair of Morningstar MPPT 45 controllers in my system.

First 8 panels, I have 8 more going in this spring

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/Solar-panels-complete.jpg

Charge controller, 24 volt 1,000 watt pure sine inverter, junction box(I have added onto this since this picture)

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/Chargecontrollerinverter.jpg

One of 4 battery boxes, sealed and vented to outside. 6 volt 232 amp hour golf cart batteries, 4 in series for 24 volts then the 4 banks in parallel.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/batterybox.jpg

I am not grid connected, I use transfer switches to control what is on battery or on grid.



Most of the Deals in Solar Panels are for 60 cell Grid Tie Panels. You need 72 cells to charge a 24 Volt OFF Grid system.

A friend had a 1500W solar system installed but the batteries would not charge. Whoever had used Grid Tie panels. It was $600+ for a special charge controller to fix the problem. ( 2 series strings of 3 panels into an Outback FM80 )

[contender1]

Great pics & explanation!
I do have a question.
Grumpa says that the batteries are banked by going from a positive to a negative & vis-a-versa. I see in your pics a cable skipping a battery to bank them together. Did I misunderstand how to bank batteries?
The pictures help a BUNCH!

[Mal Paso]

Two 6 volt batteries are connected in series to make 12 volts then the two series strings are combined for twice the amperage (power).

The portable inverters like Harbor Freight are for powering tools and camping and aren't suitable for houses. Outback and Schneider (Trace/Xanterx) make inverters with the proper electrical connections, transfer switch, battery charging, and Reliability. The failure rate (magic smoke escapes) of the portable inverters is much higher.

With systems like Mary's there is a serious amount of power, notice the electrical boxes. If you are not an electrician get some help.

The latest generation of charge controllers allow the feed from the panels to be as high as 600 volts to charge a battery bank. Panels can be much further from the batteries on smaller wire.

[lancem]

More photos for you, Off Grid, 48V system.

101009
Not a lot of room to get the camera in but there are 3 strings of 8 6V batteries in series.
101010

Charge controller, two inverters allowing me to have the availability of 220V at 30A
101011

12 240W panels, 2 on the ground because I was lazy earlier and now because of the county wide burn ban I have not been able to get out and weld up the rest of the stand.

101012
As you can see in this early morning shot the panels are shading themselves, it is time to lower them to the summer position of 6 degrees from their winter position of 46 degrees. They will look to be flat to the ground once I lower them.

With this configuration I am able to run my shop full of equipment, swamp cooler in the summer, microwave and the rest. If you were to come over to my house you wouldn't know I was off grid if you didn't see the system.

[AlaskanGuy]

Pat,

I diddnt actually wind the copper, but I did purchase the components about 7 years ago, and a buddy helped me put it all together.... There are really a lot of backyard experts in the remote places in Alaska. Most folks that live out there know something about alternative energy of some sort or another out of necessity... I am on the grid right now, but will not be when I head down to SE alaska

[Petrol & Powder]

............... The failure rate (magic smoke escapes) of the portable inverters is much higher.

..............

The Lucas Electrics "Magic Smoke" theory. I love it ! :drinks:

[MtGun44]

My house in Colorado has two L16 deep discharge batteries (the foot print of a BIG truck
battery but twice as tall and only 6 volts) put in series to give a twelve volt battery bank.

This feeds a 12VDC (volts direct current) input inverter which makes 110VAC (volts alternating
current) 60 cycle power for the main box - which is normal house power. I charge at 12 volts
and run the water pump at 12 volts (RV water pump). A charge controller keeps from overcharging
the batteries by regulating the input from the solar cells. My max solar cell output is about 11 amps,
at 14.7 volts (160 watts) which is enough to keep my TV, satellite dish, lights, pump, computers,
cell phones, DVD player, etc all working fine. Everything that CAN be non-electric IS non-electric,
including the refrigerator (propane).

You can run anything you want for awhile, even a hair dryer, as long as you understand that
one minute of hair drying takes ~9 minute of sun to recharge. (160 watts charge max and most
hair driers take 1500 watts). One minute is 1500 watt-minutes, so 1500watt-minutes/160 watts =
9.375 minutes to recharge in full sunshine. All your stuff has to be figured this way. If you had
a smallish microwave - it would use 600 watts. So if you did 2 minutes of microwaving, this is
600 watts * 2 minutes = 1200 watt-minutes. Charging at 160 watts will take 1200/160 = 7.5 minutes
to charge back up.

You have to figure what you need and buy enough cell capacity and battery capacity to make it work
out. Mine will work for 3 days with almost no solar input before I get low on battery power. Never
has happened since 1995. Look up how much power a refrigerator-freeze draws and then figure
the size and cost for panels and batteries for just that............ and buy a propane refrigerator.

Here is a link to an L16 battery page, learn more about REAL batteries, not the lightweight, short
lived things in cars.

http://www.solardyne.com/trojdeepcycb1.html



Bill

[MaryB]

I was running 12 volts in that picture as I was setting things up, had a smaller inverter that was running my computer system. So it is 2 in series then the 2 sets in parallel. Currently building a new battery box to move them into a climate controlled area for longer life. Running off battery with a desktop computer and 2 24 inch lcd monitors as I type this.

[Petrol & Powder]

There're some "bright" people on this forum. :groner: [Sorry, it was just too easy]