Asking for help

[Elbow]

Ok loaded my first cast boolits, leec309 170 f over 22 grains of 4198imr. Before loading them I opened the case mouths with needle nose pliers a little because when I loaded some without fat checks or lube on an empty case I noticed some lead smear. To a pod the lead smear I opened the mouths a little but when I loaded these with gas checks and alox lube on belt and ran them throughout action of my winchester 94 about half the bullets fell into the case. Should I not have opened the case mouths because I won't get lead a smear with the lune and gas checks installed or is something else wrong?

[WallyM3]

Can you describe this lead smear more specifically?

[454PB]

Apparently you opened the case neck too much, and/or didn't use the crimp groove.

[Elbow]

Well I may have opened the case mouth too much. The lead smear was a small smear on the unlined boolit running down the side of the case. I am using an rcbs 2 pice die set, what is the crimp groove?

[WallyM3]

I think this one may call for pictures.

BTW, what loading manual(s) do you have?

[marshall623]

A pair of needle nose has too long of taper and that sounds like whats going on with the boolits being pushed into the case . I flare the mouths to where a little more than 1/2- 3/4 of the gas check slips in the mouth and the press has to do the rest. The crimp groove is smaller than the lube grooves last one at the top . And you should crimp those running them through a lever gun

[Elbow]

Lyman cast bullet handbook. Don't know how to post pics, probably opened case mouth too much

[WallyM3]

Third edition, p.81. They say to avoid crimping, but you may want to in order to get sufficient tension to hold the bullet in place as it cycles through your action.

You might want to "bell" the case mouth to avoid that smear, then maybe use a collet (factory) crimp die.

[DrCaveman]

If you can turn off auto-spell-correct it might help with communication

Kinda sounds to me like the cases werent resized prior to case belling...or, you just REALLY went to town with the needle nose. Or, maybe the boolits are just a bit small in diameter

Ive never seen my gas checks or lube PREVENT lead shaving when my case belling was too small. Hell, ive shaved gas check edges before i knew better.

But, if you can just barely get the gas check to start seating into the case, like less than a hundredth of an inch, and then hit resistance, and let your seating die do the rest of the work, you should have enough neck tension to prevent the boolit falling into the case when you chamber it

Lee universal expanding die might be worth the investment here. Really, a 2-die set, with no case expander? Must not have been made with lead boolits in mind!

[starmac]

I don't like needle nose. If I don't have an m die I use a round nose punch or a bigger bullet to put just a slight flare. You will hardly be able to see the flare. But it sounds like your neck tension was not right, did you resize the case before flaring?

[Blammer]

after you flaired the case and seated the bullet, did you run it back up the seating die to take out the flair?

I suspect once you do that, your bullets won't 'seat upon chambering'

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Ok loaded my first cast boolits, leec309 170 f over 22 grains of 4198imr. Before loading them I opened the case mouths with needle nose pliers a little because when I loaded some without fat checks or lube on an empty case I noticed some lead smear. To a pod the lead smear I opened the mouths a little but when I loaded these with gas checks and alox lube on belt and ran them throughout action of my winchester 94 about half the bullets fell into the case. Should I not have opened the case mouths because I won't get lead a smear with the lune and gas checks installed or is something else wrong?

Honestly, It's extremely difficult trying to figure out what you are trying to say.
regarding what I highlighted, your cases suffer from not enough neck tension.

Read that Lyman Cast bullet handbook again ...and spend extra time in the chapter on Dies.

[nanuk]

are you sizing these bullets?

[Love Life]

I would just buy factory ammo.

[mrbill2]

First off get rid of the needle nose pliers. You need a Lee flairing tool.
The crimp grove is used when you fold some of the brass neck in on the bullet to hold it in place. Not much, just enough to keep the bullet in place when loading in a tube magazine.
100517

[Pb2au]

Go buy the Lee flaring tool. It is a handy thing to keep around.
Flare the mouth of the case just enough to get the bullet started, no more. As Mr Bill said, put just enough crimp to lock it into the crimp groove (see his illustration) and then go shooting.

I get the impression that the needle nose pliers are wallering out the entire neck, thus the projectile falling backwards into the case.

[Wayne Smith]

If you are shooting them in a rifle with a tubular magazine (Win 94) you need to crimp them anyway. This keeps the boolit from sliding back in the case under the spring tension of the magazine.

If you are serious about shooting cast forget the Lee flare die. Get either the Lyman M die or the RCBS cast boolit expander die and you will find that most if not all of your problems go away. When you order let them know you are shooting cast boolits in a 30-30.

[pete501]

I would say if you are on a budget, keep using the needle nose and simply run the seating die lower into your press to give some crimp to the case mouth. Be sure the cases are all trimmed to the sale length and seat your bullets to the crimp groove on the bullet.

[Yodogsandman]

When I started casting, I had the same basic problems. I was using a prick punch and also tried a nail set. A little tunk with a hammer and the mouth was belled out. Some were more, some less tunked. A Lyman "M" die, .30 Long, solved the inconsistent belled mouth problem. To set up my seating die to crimp, I would run my case all the way up in the press and then turn the seating die in to touch the case mouth (empty). I would then set a bullet in the case mouth and run the cartridge up. I would then adjust the stem down so the crimping groove of the bullet was just starting to reach the case mouth. Then I would run the case back down and screw the whole seating die down about 1/4 more of a turn. This gave me a good starting point to adjusting the crimp. Too much crimp and the case neck will bulge or buckle. Too little and it won't hold the bullet secure in the case and the bullet will be able to be pushed into the case.

[freebullet]

Lee universal expander die is $11.49 at midway. Ya need to crimp a little for guns that feed. Always check for setback.

[Bloodman14]

Dude, read the stickies, then, read them again. It does you no good to ask these questions when they have been answered on multiple occasions. read the stickies, learn the hobby, then ask questions that are specific to your situation, then the more experienced among us can help you more specifically. I'm not trying to discourage you, but you need to learn a few things before you start asking questions; we're not going to do it for you.

Elbow, I apologize for the attitude; I lost my favorite cousin (37 yo., had a stroke and died in her sleep) and I did not get accepted into the medical program I wanted. Seriously, the only way to learn is to ask.