Bulets too hard to size

[freespiritman]

I have cast some 40 cal 175gr lee bullets and water quenched, but they are too hard to size with my old Lyman 45 sizer. Sizing to .401
It works OK on the air cooled bullets. Do I need a new sizer?

[sqlbullet]

How long ago were the bullets cast? How big are they pre-sizing?

Quenched bullets continue to harden for a few weeks after casting. I have encountered some that were difficult to size on my old Lachmiller. A new press of the same type won't help. When I dealt with this I sized them on my Rockchucker using Lee pass through dies. Then I lubed them on the Lachmiller. Made it a two step process, but with the added leverage of the bigger press, sizing was a breeze.

[fecmech]

You waited too long. If you WD it's best to size right away or put the bullets in the freezer (slows hardening) till you're ready. You could put these in the oven at about 450 for an hour and then let them air cool to ease sizing. They won't be WD'd any more obviously.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Sounds like you just need to tumble lube them first.

[Whiterabbit]

salvageable. get a 40 cal lee push through, then put them in the lubrisizer. Problem solved.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thoughts..

1. I destroyed a good Lyman 45 some years back trying to size water quenched 45s down .002.
2. I see no need nor purpose for bullets that hard.
3. I bought a Lee press mounted .452 sizer to finish sizing those bullets.
4. Water dropping is just a recent fad and not any kind of improvement.

[Whiterabbit]

you should see this powder coating fad that's going on.

[Char-Gar]

you should see this powder coating fad that's going on.

There are a number of us watching the powder coating folks. We will see how their barrels respond to this long term. No sense on risking a high end barrel, when somebody else will take the hit.

As of the current date, it would appear to me, it is a solution to a non-existent problem. In this regard it is much like water dropping.

[destrux]

I think powder coat was a great solution to several problems that some in this hobby don't often consider, but that's for another thread.

[Char-Gar]

I think powder coat was a great solution to several problems that some in this hobby don't often consider, but that's for another thread.

If powder coating is a solution to problems we don't consider, then how can they be problems that need to be solved? Inquiring minds want to know.

[PS Paul]

Well, they solve that problem of plain-old lead boolits looking just "stuffy" and "traditional". He he.....
Guess I'm just stuffy and traditional! A club I am proud to belong to.

[fatelk]

How big are they dropping from the mold? I had the same issue some time back, but the bullets were .406" out of the mold.

[KYCaster]

Do you need a new sizer?

No.....you need to stop water quenching.

If your boolits are too hard to size, then they're harder than they need to be for 40S&W. ACWW will do fine.

Jerry

P.S......That's just my opinion.....YMMV.

[plainsman456]

Second that you waited to long to size,i did the same thing.

Like was said acww will work in the 40S&W just fine,they do in mine.

[bobthenailer]

I water drop from the mould for about all of my cast boolets and lube & size within 1.5 hrs after casting them, with rarely any problems unless the mould casts more than.002 oversized boolets ! if so i spray some spray lube on a cookie sheet and lay the boolets on there side and roll them around , and let dry and then lube normaly.
When casting i allways cast a few test boolets and let them air cool and check hardness with my BHN tool, these air cooled boolets that were cast from the same alloy as my oversized water dropped boolets size with alot less effort and with no spray lube.

[btroj]

If powder coating is a solution to problems we don't consider, then how can they be problems that need to be solved? Inquiring minds want to know.

I think I actually heard his mind blow up when he tried to respond Char-gar. It is rather difficult to solve a problem that isn't considered. If it isn't a problem then how could it be solved?

[btroj]

Any heavy lifting I need to do when it comes to sizing gets done with a Lee push thru and my press. My press can handle the stress, my Star and Lyman sizers aren't designs for that kind of work.

Over stressing your equipment is how stuff breaks.

[rsrocket1]

Measure your bullets. Are they the same diameter with the seam and across the seam? If so, they are round.

Try loading that bullet into an uncharged case and see if it chambers properly. If it does, you've just saved yourself an unnecessary step in sizing them. I have the Lee 6 cavity 401-175-TC and water drop my bullets. I water drop not for hardness, but because they come out so fast that there is no room on the drop towel after just a few minutes of casting.

I seat the bullets so the edge of the cone is flush with the case mouth. They chamber perfectly in my M&P40, but would hang up if there is more than a few mils of the vertical part of the lead above the case mouth. So now it's cast, tumble lube, load, shoot.

[Char-Gar]

I think I actually heard his mind blow up when he tried to respond Char-gar. It is rather difficult to solve a problem that isn't considered. If it isn't a problem then how could it be solved?

Yep, I have no problem with folks that way to try something different just to try it. But I can't see what problem they are trying to solve. It is "size and lube" vs. "size, spray and bake". Maybe one is as good as the other, but I can see no problem to be solved, just another way to skin the same cat.

I will continue to do it the old fashion way, unless somebody can show me the new way is better and not just different. It is going to take allot more people, shooting allot more rounds, for allot longer period of time for us to really understand what this does to barrel steel. I am taking a wait and see attitude.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=rsrocket1;2702666]Measure your bullets. Are they the same diameter with the seam and across the seam? If so, they are round.

Try loading that bullet into an uncharged case and see if it chambers properly. If it does, you've just saved yourself an unnecessary step in sizing them. QUOTE]

Probably just picking nits, but that is what we often do here, but I have never seen a cast bullet either unsized or sized that was round. It is just a matter of how out of round they are. I am talking about measuring to .0001.

No matter how round or out of round the bullet may be, it will be the same shape as the inside of the barrel after it has traveled it's own length.

Out of round really matters in rifle bullets with noses that hang in the air. If they are out of round, the will induce wobble in the rest of the bullet when they leave the barrel.

[GARD72977]

Yep, I have no problem with folks that way to try something different just to try it. But I can't see what problem they are trying to solve. It is "size and lube" vs. "size, spray and bake". Maybe one is as good as the other, but I can see no problem to be solved, just another way to skin the same cat.

I will continue to do it the old fashion way, unless somebody can show me the new way is better and not just different. It is going to take allot more people, shooting allot more rounds, for allot longer period of time for us to really understand what this does to barrel steel. I am taking a wait and see attitude.

The problem is that traditional lube creates smoke. In casual plinking this is not a problem but for IDPA or other action sports you need to have better vision of the target. I still plan to practice with traditional lube bullets but "Game day" bullets will be powder coated.

[Char-Gar]

The problem is that traditional lube creates smoke. In casual plinking this is not a problem but for IDPA or other action sports you need to have better vision of the target. I still plan to practice with traditional lube bullets but "Game day" bullets will be powder coated.

I have been shooting cast bullets in handguns for over 50 years, a million or more of them, in competition and for fun. I have never experienced lube created smoke sufficient to be a problem in seeing the target for proper shot placement.

To be certain some powders and some lubes produce more smoke than others, but none has been a problem for which I needed to find a solution.

I am curious however, why a fellow would practice with one type of ammo and then switch to another type for competition? I should think we would want our practice to be as close to competition as possible. If the lube smoke is obscuring your target in practice, then I don't think that would be effective practice.

I will cop to being an old fud, who reads/hears the younger set complaining about dirty power and too much smoke and thinks...*** do these guys expect. Next up is to find a recoilless firearm and zero muzzle blast? I suppose robots to shoot the darn thing would also help us a more pleasant and trouble free shooting experience. Please chalk this up to senility if you wish, I won't be offended at all.

[Springfield]

I don't have anything against power coating, but that being said, how would it solve his bullets need to be sized problem? If anything, the coating is going to make them even larger.

[btroj]

I have never noticed smoke outdoors. Indoor ranges are a different story. Lighting and lack of strong air currents makes it noticeable.

Smokey lubes are like smokey powders, a non issue.

Char-gar, I'm not near as old as you but can be just as fud-like at times. And I even use a coating system!

[Char-Gar]

I have never noticed smoke outdoors. Indoor ranges are a different story. Lighting and lack of strong air currents makes it noticeable.

Smokey lubes are like smokey powders, a non issue.

Char-gar, I'm not near as old as you but can be just as fud-like at times. And I even use a coating system!

I am keeping an open mind about powder coating. I just want to wait until we have a long track record and it goes mainstream. Right now some of the early proponents are a little to cult like for my tastes. Not, I said "some" and not "all".

[9.3X62AL]

I'll don my Nomex suit before launching forth on the subjects broached in this thread.

I have zero issues with folks experimenting with water-dropping or the newer coatings when it comes to their cast bullet shooting. I'm always open to making upgrades in the shooting effort. But these two steps--water-dropping and coating--just don't seem to offer me much in terms of 'improvements accomplished vs. time expended'. If your goal is to halt leading and enhance accuracy, make certain that your bullets fit the throat and barrel and are free of air pockets or foreign inclusions. Scaling is the best route to that goal, and adherence to critical inspection in concert with the scaling regimen. I don't scale handgun bullets, nor do I scale non-critical rifle castings. "Eyeball" has enabled some very good grouping with cranky calibers like 243 and 250 Savage. Most of my rifle alloy is no harder than BHn 14-15. All too often in this venue and many others, "a" truth gets discovered and onlookers assume it to be "The Truth". I'll stand by and watch, thank you.

[btroj]

I am keeping an open mind about powder coating. I just want to wait until we have a long track record and it goes mainstream. Right now some of the early proponents are a little to cult like for my tastes. Not, I said "some" and not "all".

No powder coating for me. I'm using the Hi-Tek coating. Easy to do. I'm still not entirely sold on it. Some guns seem to do fine, some don't.

I'm not an easy sell with new stuff. I need to see a proven benefit.

I will say that the older I get the softer my bullets are. I'm amazed at how easily swayed I was by the hard cast craze, now I prefer just plain old range scrap for about everything.

[Char-Gar]

No powder coating for me. I'm using the Hi-Tek coating. Easy to do. I'm still not entirely sold on it. Some guns seem to do fine, some don't.

I'm not an easy sell with new stuff. I need to see a proven benefit.

I will say that the older I get the softer my bullets are. I'm amazed at how easily swayed I was by the hard cast craze, now I prefer just plain old range scrap for about everything.

I was a harder is always better cast bullet shooter myself until 1965 when I loaded some straight linotype full wadcutter 38 Specials over target load of 2.7/Bullseye. I fired 50 rounds in my Colt Officers Model Match and had the cylinder throats and breech end of the barrel lead plated and lead that hard was difficult to remove.

That left me scratching my head why bullets that hard, going that slow would lead like that. I had been shooting the same bullet and load cast of 1-40 (tin to lead) in the same revolver with none of those problems.

As it worked out the .357 sized bullet was fired through a .359 throat and the mild pressures would not expand the base to seal. There was however enough pressure and heat to blow past the base and take lead off the sides of the bullet. If a fellow is going to shoot bullets that hard in his sixgun, best make certain they are an exact fit to the cylinder throat with no place for the gas to wedge itself between the bullet and the cylinder throat. Linotype (Bh 22) didn't group one smidge better than 1-40 even when they fit, so why do it. Water dropped bullets are often as hard or harder than Linotype.

On the other hand, I shot lots of Linotype bullets through a 45 Autopistol with good results although not better than much softer alloys. I believed Keith and others that said you needed a very hard bullet to take and hold the shallow rifling of the 45 autopistol barrel. That was another bunch of crapola that was accepted as fact back in the day, and is still heard from time to time.

I have made about every mistake that can be made with cast bullets. There is no shame in that, but not learning from the mistake is a pretty shameful thing.

At any rate, I turned in my membership card in the Harder Is Always Better Club 49 years ago. Nothing in the intervening years have made me want to rejoin.

Back in those days there was plenty of nonsense published in various gun magazines. Things that somebody who should know better, put in print that got repeated over and over again for generations without question. It made you wonder if those folks ever shot what they wrote about. I doubt that they did. A once respected writer who is now consider a saint, wrote that after much experimentation he found that .451 cast bullets delivered the best accuracy in Colt and Smith and Wesson 1917 (45 ACP) sixguns and the harder the better. The throats of those sixguns measure .456 - 458 and deliver lousy accuracy with .451 cast bullets. However we took it as gospel and just figured he could shoot better than us, when we had problems hitting the target. It never occurred to question the writer of holy writ. Other stuff he wrote contradicted himself. After a time it became obvious he was doing his shooting with a typewriter and a bottle of hooch.

I once spent an evening drinking with him and some other gun guys and I was in worship mode and hung on every word. I was in my early 20's and he in his late 50's or early 60's. Today I would call him on some of his stuff, and no doubt the evening would turn unpleasant if not violent.

[btroj]

Yep. I shot some commercial cast 158 RN in my 357 using light 38 special loads. After 30 or so they were hitting sideways. I could almost mine the bore. Stupid me had loaded 300 before trying any! Then I measured and discovered they were .357 bullets and I usually use .359 in that revolver. I never bought cast bullets again.

I learned the hard way that hard, undersized bullets are the easiest way to lead a bore.

[Love Life]

Doesn't water dropping from the mould just harden the surface? If so, when you size them, doesn't that work soften the previously hard surface?

[freebullet]

Spray case lube on them and through the lee push through they go. Ive went from .361 down to .356 without any issues or problems with the lees.

Far as powder coating or any other coating goes it eliminates tacky boolits, could help with longer storage, & allows bullet feeder die use just to name a few advantages.

[Love Life]

No lube gunk build up on your guns either... Ya, I know, just clean the gun. I put many a minute or two of thought before I offloaded my lymans and swapped over to HI-TEK.

However; I don't want to drift. Freebullet gives an easy solution.

[Char-Gar]

..Far as powder coating or any other coating goes it eliminates tacky boolits, could help with longer storage, & allows bullet feeder die use just to name a few advantages.

Humm...I don't store lubed bullets, I lube them as needed. I also wash my hands so no problem there either. I have been handling lubed bullets for a very long time, so I don't have an "icky" reaction to doing so. I don't use any kind of auto bullet feeding system. Thus far it doesn't scratch where I itch. Any other benefits I might enjoy?

[Love Life]

Any other benefits I might enjoy?

Incredibly good looking women will believe you are much more savvy on the world and will give you their phone numbers and gas money.

[Char-Gar]

Incredibly good looking women will believe you are much more savvy on the world and will give you their phone numbers and gas money.

Now you are taking benefits...I will be right over for instruction in powder coating.

[btroj]

Don't listen to him, his criteria are questionable. Willing and alive are all he cares about, anything else is superfluous.

Coated bullets do eliminate the grunge in the gun. Not a huge deal but it does allow a bit longer between cleanings. Now if you are a clean every time out kinda guy that doesn't matter, does it?

[Love Life]

Don't forget that consenting is also a requirement.

The benefits are benefits to those who want those benefits.

ETA: 18+ is also a requirement.

[cbrick]

I believed Keith and others that said you needed a very hard bullet to take and hold the shallow rifling of the 45 autopistol barrel. That was another bunch of crapola that was accepted as fact back in the day, and is still heard from time to time.

Yes Keith advocated hard bullets BUT when Keith spoke of hard he was referring to what was considered hard in HIS day, not what is considered hard TODAY. To Keith 12 BHN was a hard bullet, viewing it in accurate historical terms of hardness Keith was right promoting that "bunch of crapola". Do you shoot full blown 44 mag with 5-7 BHN boolits? Keith didn't, neither do I. In addition Keith was using primarily Pb/Sn alloy and not Pb/Sb/Sn alloys as is quite common today and allowing much harder boolits.

On the other side of the coin, your right, many people today take the term "hardcast" way out of perspective. They look at 12 BHN as soft and go from there thinking if 20 is good then 30 has to be all the better. Too hard of course creates it's own problems with both accuracy and leading. It's a rare boolit that needs to be 18 BHN, the majority do better much softer than that.

Rick

[btroj]

But of Keith woulda had it.....

Yep, that is the usual argument. I am always amazed at how well lowly range scrap works in a handgun and many rifles.

[destrux]

If powder coating is a solution to problems we don't consider, then how can they be problems that need to be solved? Inquiring minds want to know.

Well, if you're the type who has sufficient free time to experiment with them, you might not consider that others don't have hours and hours to spend perfecting the usage of traditional lube (some have no problems, and some find it extremely fussy, I couldn't get it right despite honest attempts to learn). If you don't give a second thought to lead exposure or you never shoot indoors, you might not care about the effects of shooting bare lead bullets at an indoor range. If you never shoot quickly, you may never consider how smoke from some traditional lubes can obscure the target. If you have money for one, you don't consider how expensive a lubesizer is (compared to a toaster oven and an empty cool whip container). If you've never dropped a container of hot beeswax in your kitchen, you may have never considered how much your wife will complain about it.

I didn't say they were problems nobody considered. I said they were problems some don't consider.

[Char-Gar]

Well, if you're the type who has sufficient free time to experiment with them, you might not consider that others don't have hours and hours to spend perfecting the usage of traditional lube (some have no problems, and some find it extremely fussy, I couldn't get it right despite honest attempts to learn). If you don't give a second thought to lead exposure or you never shoot indoors, you might not care about the effects of shooting bare lead bullets at an indoor range. If you never shoot quickly, you may never consider how smoke from some traditional lubes can obscure the target. If you have money for one, you don't consider how expensive a lubesizer is (compared to a toaster oven and an empty cool whip container). If you've never dropped a container of hot beeswax in your kitchen, you may have never considered how much your wife will complain about it.

I didn't say they were problems nobody considered. I said they were problems some don't consider.

You are quite right, those are problems I don't have therefore don't consider them things that need solution.

1. I have been using the same lube for over 50 years in both rifle and handgun loads with no problems or issues.
2. I have been casting, loading and shooting for 54 years and have my blood tested on a regular basis and include lead in that test. It is and has always been in the normal range, so my lead exposure is not an issue.
3. While I have in the past, I don't shoot at an indoor range these days.
4. I do shoot quickly at times, but have never considered lube smoke to cause a problem in seeing what I am shooting at.
5. I have three lube sizer machines and a bunch of dies that have been long paid for, so there is no cost there.
6. Despite using home made lube, I have never dropped a container of hot wax in my kitchen nor had any complains from my wife.

Thanks for the full answer. I have been watching the Powder Coating threads to see if there is something for me in this new way of doing things. It doesn't look like there is, I will continue as I am.

I do wonder what effect the additional thickness added to the bullet by the coating will have in the whole cast bullet equation? If I wanted a .452 bullet and with coating it came to .454, does that mean I would need to size it .450 to end up with a .452 bullet after coating?

[Char-Gar]

Yes Keith advocated hard bullets BUT when Keith spoke of hard he was referring to what was considered hard in HIS day, not what is considered hard TODAY. To Keith 12 BHN was a hard bullet, viewing it in accurate historical terms of hardness Keith was right promoting that "bunch of crapola". Do you shoot full blown 44 mag with 5-7 BHN boolits? Keith didn't, neither do I. In addition Keith was using primarily Pb/Sn alloy and not Pb/Sb/Sn alloys as is quite common today and allowing much harder boolits.

On the other side of the coin, your right, many people today take the term "hardcast" way out of perspective. They look at 12 BHN as soft and go from there thinking if 20 is good then 30 has to be all the better. Too hard of course creates it's own problems with both accuracy and leading. It's a rare boolit that needs to be 18 BHN, the majority do better much softer than that.

Rick

Rick...the "hard" that Keith and others said was necessary to hold the rifling of a 1911 barrel was not the same "hard" (1-16) he said was needed for the 44 Magnum and similar big bore sixguns. I recall a mention of No. 2 and/or Linotype for use in the 1911 pistol.

This is the reason I was using Linotype for the 1911 pistol. I was living in Houston at the time and they had a foundry there where I could buy the stuff fresh for a reasonable price. It was also at that time (1965 or so) that Speer came out with their swaged 200 clone of H&G 68. I thought there was no way a bullet that soft could hold the rifling of my Colt Gold Cup, but I bought a box of 100 just for fun. They shot as well as any Linotype bullet and did not lead. I bought several thousand more and never cast another Linotype bullet for the 45 ACP.

Please pardon the trip down memory lane. It really doesn't seem that long ago to me, but for some it sounds like the stone age. Back then we figured out what worked by trial and error without any real knowledge of what was going on. At the end of the process, we did the same thing that works now, but now we have a better notion of why it works.

When I look back, I see how much nonsense there was in print that was accepted as fact by us the great unwashed. Things have no changed that much as there is still lots of nonsense out there on the internet and accepted uncritically by folks and then passed on as fact. For some reason, folks will repeat the same bad information and swear it has worked for them, when in fact it never worked for anybody. I suppose folks think the fault is theirs and don't want to admit they did it wrong. They won't question the basic information because it came from a source they trusted and felt was superior to their knowledge. So they "double down" on the basic nonsense and pass it on as fact.

[mold maker]

We'll run out of old wives, long before the old wives tales.

[44MAG#1]

Get a can of Hornady spray case lube and spray your "hard" cast bullets, let set a couple or three minutes and size and lube away.
Don't make problems where there are no problems.
Enough will pop up on their own. They need no help.

[tazman]

When I look back, I see how much nonsense there was in print that was accepted as fact by us the great unwashed. Things have no changed that much as there is still lots of nonsense out there on the internet and accepted uncritically by folks and then passed on as fact. For some reason, folks will repeat the same bad information and swear it has worked for them, when in fact it never worked for anybody. I suppose folks think the fault is theirs and don't want to admit they did it wrong. They won't question the basic information because it came from a source they trusted and felt was superior to their knowledge. So they "double down" on the basic nonsense and pass it on as fact.

That is very true unfortunately. I myself am guilty. I made that very mistake yesterday of repeating what I had read in a reloading manual many years ago. Times change and so do components and technology. I hope I am learning to consider a bit more before I open my mouth(or keyboard) and spout something that is no longer true or effective.
I still have some catching up to do as far as reloading and casting. Many of the old techniques still work fine. Many of the new better understood techniques work better.

[RogerDat]

At least on this forum there is a free exchange of information, respectfully expressed at least for the most part. People try things and report back, people share ideas they have heard to find out what others think of it.

There is a good blend of experience (been there done that and this works or not in that situation), technical knowledge (at that temperature the crystal structure would ...), and plain common sense with a little bit of humor. All put out by people willing to "own" what they post as fact or opinion. In that sense the whole forum is somewhat old fashioned.

Beats the heck out of the forward of a forward of a forward chain emails we sometimes get that some folks swear is gospel even though they have no idea why or whom the information originally came from.

Now about those attractive ladies, I got one of those but would like to hear more about the buying me gas part. Is it only a package deal or a le cart?

[6bg6ga]

I have cast some 40 cal 175gr lee bullets and water quenched, but they are too hard to size with my old Lyman 45 sizer. Sizing to .401
It works OK on the air cooled bullets. Do I need a new sizer?

Yes, you need a real sizer. I had some 255gr 45LC bullets water quenched that I was afraid to run in my Magma and I ran them in my Mark VI sizer without a problem. The extra leverage works.