45-70 collar button mold 150 grain

[jason f]

any interest in this mold in a two or four cavity. as cast about 460-461 diameter

[45 2.1]

You know MiHec already has done this and has the reamer. It was done in 44 and 45 caliber. It might be possible to do it in 50 caliber also.

[jason f]

I would definitely take a 45 and 50 cal version

[zuke]

You know MiHec already has done this and has the reamer. It was done in 44 and 45 caliber. It might be possible to do it in 50 caliber also.

But how long will it take him to deliver?

[historicfirearms]

Lyman is making a collar button mold now. Midway has them in stock.

[kens]

Holy Smokes!!!
How fast could you drive this out of a 45-70??

[338RemUltraMag]

I could make one in 6-8 weeks

[45 2.1]

Holy Smokes!!!
How fast could you drive this out of a 45-70??

Lyman made a hundred of these to sell some years ago.... a limited edition so to speak. The data that came with it gave some loads going about 2,000 fps or so out of the 45-70.

[jason f]

I could make one in 6-8 weeks

i think they would work a little better and not use as much lube if they were about 200 grain. same dimensions as original but just make lube groove same width but not as deep.

[338RemUltraMag]

I am working on a 2 cavity mold that I "need" a design for, I have seen these before and they are neat they look a lot like a 230 gr ACP bullet on Atkins.

[longbow]

Personally I like the original Lyman design... except with an added small meplat for tube magazine safety. But then I am dreaming again since I haven't had a .45-70 for many years. I know, a guy should not be without a .45-70 but life sometimes gets in the way of gun options.

If you were doing multiple diameters I would be interested for my .44 Marlin but I got a custom lightweight for that already.

I modeled up the Lyman .45 cal design in 3D some time ago so you are welcome to that if you want it. Can't recall if I made dimensioned drawings but that wouldn't take long anyway.

Longbow

[338RemUltraMag]

Personally I like the original Lyman design... except with an added small meplat for tube magazine safety. But then I am dreaming again since I haven't had a .45-70 for many years. I know, a guy should not be without a .45-70 but life sometimes gets in the way of gun options.

If you were doing multiple diameters I would be interested for my .44 Marlin but I got a custom lightweight for that already.

I modeled up the Lyman .45 cal design in 3D some time ago so you are welcome to that if you want it. Can't recall if I made dimensioned drawings but that wouldn't take long anyway.

Longbow

If I can see it in a PDF file I would love to take a peek.

[longbow]

I will look it up tonight.

Send me your e-mail and I will send it to you. Like I said, I cannot remember if I produced any drawings from the model but if I didn't and you like it (well if the group buy folks like it) then I can do that pretty quick.

Hmmm, maybe I can just post it here. That should work then everyone can see it and comment.

Longbow

[338RemUltraMag]

I like that idea Longbow, post it here for everyone, I will work on a drawing in about an hour or so.

[338RemUltraMag]

Question, while I draw this boolit I need to keep in mind the intended purpose, is it a cat sneeze load that will be shot no more than 1500 fps or is it a screamer boolit for 2100 fps loads? Do you want a gascheck option?

[338RemUltraMag]

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/45CollarButton.png (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joshaaronelli/media/45CollarButton.png.html)

Hard to copy something that I don't have a copy of, anyway I changed the grease groove section to a 45 degree angle to help strengthen this section and fight collapse when shot at higher speeds. As an added positive the 45 degree draft will aide in mold release immensely.

[alamogunr]

How do the things being proposed here differ from the Lee six cavity GB collar button from a few years ago?

[45 2.1]

How do the things being proposed here differ from the Lee six cavity GB collar button from a few years ago?

The Lee GB collar button looks like this:

[338RemUltraMag]

I was going off of the NEI or was it MiHec? version which had a Truncated Cone for a nose, I can make one rounded or whatever you would like.

[alamogunr]

The Lee GB collar button looks like this:

I guess I should get that mold out and try it before I commit to a similar mold. If I were to get another collar button mold, it would be for much reduced loads.

[longbow]

Okay then, I had forgotten I had done so many versions of this!

These are all .44 cal. but simple scaling will make them whatever they need to be.

Personally I like the large radius groove and fairly thick "stem" so if a guy wants to push it some it should not collapse. I also like a slightly thicker base band for the same reason.

Anyway, here they are:101164101165101166101167101168101169101170

Yeah, yeah, I know the ones with crimp grooves look a little goofy but if a guy wants to kick these out fast in a revolver a crimp groove may be a good thing.

The flat nose was to suit tube magazines.

I have 3D of all these too.

If you want any for the group buy I can turn out drawings pretty quick.

Longbow

PS: I also like the large radius because it gives longer bearing surface but keeps weight down.

[338RemUltraMag]

I had a bunch of trial designs that looked very similar, but that 150 gr target at .461 diameter is hard to do.

[338RemUltraMag]

I personally like #2 and #4

[jason f]

how much would you have to bump up the weight to improve the design and make it easier?

[longbow]

By stretching the radius, weight could probably remain pretty close to these. I'd have to play with it or pass the 3D on to 338RemUltraMag so he can play.

Larger diameter will add some weight but not a lot, then with a waist and base band like #1 weight would probably be pretty close to 150 grs.

What is the "plan"? .45 cal. only or multiple calibers for this design? If pointy nose then it would be difficult to get multople calibers but with a small meplat the cherry can be orbited to produce whatever diameter you want with meplats getting a little larger by caliber.

If the group wants one of my designs I can detail it or give it to 338RemUltraMag for development and detailing. 45 2.1's design has already been run a couple of times I think. Then there is 338RemUltraMag's design.

Anyway, whatever the group wants we can work out... within reason.

Longbow

[jason f]

a small meplat the cherry can be orbited to produce whatever diameter you want with meplats getting a little larger by caliber.

this would be the way to go. one cherry to produce multiple calibers.

[338RemUltraMag]

A small meplat would be best, personally a crimp groove is neat for revolvers, I can order the cherry for the 44 mag and then orbit to 500 S&W easy enough.

[longbow]

Do you want me to send you step files? I don't think I can save out as SolidWorks from my budget version of Alibre 3D. I know that the next version up saves out SolidWorks files (I used to be able to but got downgraded).

Alternately I can dimension a drawing and send that.

Whatever you want. Let me know.

Longbow

[338RemUltraMag]

Shoot me a dementional, that is what I would send to the cutters. Which should we go with?

[longbow]

Okay, give me a few days to get to it. I am in the middle or rifling some 3/4" pipe as a trial run for "specialty" rifled shotgun tube. Having a few cutter stability problems with the more or less traditional rifling head. I plan to solidly mount the cutter and use a shimmed shoe under. makes more sense to me... but that's another thread.

You guys let me know which design you want, what caliber(s) details and what weight ~ using wheelweights most likely eh? I will adjust the model to suit the caliber of choice then weight will vary a little between calibers. .44 and .45 won't be much different with just a diameter increase but .50 may be a wee bit heavier. In fact it may be worth modeling a .50 because it may be pretty stubby unless length grows some with diameter.

Anyway, I digress yet again. You guys decide what you want. I will adjust the model then turn out dimensional drawings to the boolit diameter ~ allowance will have to be made for shrinkage either in the cherry design or by orbiting to correct diameter for the cavity.

If we start with .44 you probably want a cherry of about o.427" or maybe 0.429" so it will fit .44-40 (if any takers), orbit a little for .44 Special, .44 mag. then orbit bigger as required for .45, etc.

Longbow

[338RemUltraMag]

When you shoot me the dementional, make the base drive band long enougb to make the 50 cal work. I will cut shallow for 44-45 and use the whole thing for 50 cal.

[longbow]

So what are we looking at... a #4 with crimp groove but a little shorter to get around 150 grs. in .44/.45?

That one could go as thin as the Lyman original design for base band and that may reduce weight enough in itself for .44/.45. I'll have to play with the model to check though. looking at it the nose could be shortened a bit too more like the Lyman but with a meplat.

Any comments? Takers?

If we are good to go I will make up a drawing and post for comments. If people like it then I guess you got a group buy for a collar button.

Longbow

[jason f]

waiting to see how this goes. just picked up a 44 mag handi rifle and would like to have one of these for it. got some j-bullets to shoot in it for now. depending on what the 44 diameter is gonna be and time frame.
definately would like one in 461 diameter for my 45-70 shikari..
would make a nice plinking bullet for my 50-70 govt. handi as well.

[longbow]

For .44 rifle my bet is no less than 0.432" and probably 0.434". My Marlin runs 0.4315" groove and the SAAMI spec shows 0.432" bullet/0.431" groove diameter. My rifle likes 0.433" minimum diameter boolit.

If you could slug your Handi that might help decide on .44 diameter required.

Longbow

[longbow]

Okay, no more responses so here is something to look at:

101522

Left click on the image and it will open in 3D. you can use the mouse to rotate, pan, zoom, drag.

This the Lyman style collar button in .44 caliber at 0.432" diameter and with added crimp groove. Weight is 152 grs. in pure lead so a little lighter if wheelweights.

If you guys like this then I will put together a dimensional drawing and send it to 338RemUltraMag. I can do one in each chosen caliber.

If you don't like it then tell me what changes you want.

Longbow

Hmmmm... I just scaled up to 0.460" and weight comes in at 184 grs. for pure lead so somewhat lighter in wheelweights. I could shorten the lube groove a bit to lighten it especially since bearing length is increased due to crimp groove.

Anyway, let me know what you want.

[rollmyown]

I like #2 in Longbows drawings. What would this weigh at .461?

[alamogunr]

Is this the same as #4 in post 21? I still haven't decided whether I want a collar button but am following with interest.

[longbow]

alamogunr: I am getting 180 grs. for wheelweights assuming 4% (+/-) antimony for #2 @ 0.461".

rollmyown: No, this is #3 from the left on the bottom row (Lyman Style Collar Button_FN 124 gr.) but with added crimp groove.

Getting rid of the crimp groove will drop the weight to 145 grs. and it will be a 0.461" version of #3 from the left on the bottom row.

A crimp groove should not be necessary for rifle but would be nice for revolver.

Longbow

[Dframe]

Is this the same as #4 in post 21? I still haven't decided whether I want a collar button but am following with interest.

So am I. I like the idea of a crimp groove too.

[338RemUltraMag]

I am figuring to have the diameters as such:

44 cal .434
45 pistol .454
45 Rifle .461
50 cal .503

Having them fat will allow you to size down, and there isnt no way in Hello that you will wipe that lube groove away.

[45 2.1]

I am figuring to have the diameters as such:

44 cal .434
45 pistol .454
45 Rifle .461
50 cal .503

Having them fat will allow you to size down, and there isnt no way in Hello that you will wipe that lube groove away.

50 cal .503 is generally for the 50 cal pistol and older british rifles. 0.516 or 0.517" is for the 50-70.

[338RemUltraMag]

We can add that diameter as well, I was not sure of the 50-70

[longbow]

Okay, I will try to get drawings done shortly then post for all to see.

Once the details are hashed out I guess you got a group buy going.

Longbow

[Smoke4320]

#4 looks cool ... OK a super fast 45/70 & 458 socom bullet I like :) :)
might just be able to make that socom a 200 yds point blank range rifle :)

[jason f]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?237695-New-product!

how about we start this with a 44 and 45 cal version?

at that price and turnaround time this would be doable.

434 diameter and 461 diameter would be perfect

[338RemUltraMag]

I figured this would be a good start for the collar button molds, I still need a drawing before we can move forward

[jason f]

For .44 rifle my bet is no less than 0.432" and probably 0.434". My Marlin runs 0.4315" groove and the SAAMI spec shows 0.432" bullet/0.431" groove diameter. My rifle likes 0.433" minimum diameter boolit.

If you could slug your Handi that might help decide on .44 diameter required.

Longbow

Got to mess with the 44 today. A 434 diameter collar button would be perfect.

[longbow]

Thanks, that helps. Like 338RemUltraMag said, they can be sized down if necessary.

I'll try to get the range of collar buttons drawn up by the weekend.

Longbow

[jason f]

here is a couple to think about if there is not enough interest to get a group buy started.
these are from accurate molds.

101935
101936
the second one is 175 grain

101937

[longbow]

jason:

I got a lightweight for my .44 Marlin from Accurate and really like it. We had the "Pointy" boolit group buy going on and the 45 2.1 collar button group buy around the same time but I wanted a flat point for the tube magazine so didn't like those two (one pointy and one small round nose) so looked on the Accurate site and found his 45-165C:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-165C-D.png

An e-mail to ask if he could scale it to .434" and "POOF" it was in the catalogue as 43-165B:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-165B-D.png

Not trying to take away from the collar button but I am very happy with my Accurate 43-165B.

Anyway, I will get drawings done shortly and see where this takes us.

Longbow

[longbow]

As promised, drawings to look at. not the most fabulous drawings as I am tired but drawings nonetheless. These are simple scale ups from my 0.432" version with no neatening of numbers.

102034102035102036102037102038

Weights are assuming 4% to 5% antimony so more lead = heavier and more antimony or tin = lighter.

Since lightweight seems to be a goal I went with narrow front driving bands ~ a bit too narrow I think, I prefer the width on the second from the left second row in post #21 but that will raise wight some.

You guys decide what you want.

Longbow

[jason f]

i would definately take a two cavity 434. that would be a perfect plinker. gonna wait a while and see where this goes. if we cant get a group buy going i will order one elsewhere.

[jason f]

if you wanted a flat nose this one would hit like a hammer. 185 grain.

102050

[338RemUltraMag]

I dont see an issue with commitment if this launches in the 55 dollar molds, Just let me know!

[longbow]

Personally I would like a slightly thicker base band and same with the front bands but that would bump weight by 20 or 30 grs. or so in each weight.

This is basically the Lyman design with a flat nose and added crimp groove and about as light as you are going to get without it having a "wine glass" stem.

Let's see what comments and interest come out of it. I can change the drawings to suit desires if the group wants change.

Once decided, if it turns into a group buy, I will send completely detailed drawings to you 338RemUltraMag. These only have the major dimensions on them so far.

Longbow

[jason f]

Personally I would like a slightly thicker base band and same with the front bands but that would bump weight by 20 or 30 grs. or so in each weight.

This is basically the Lyman design with a flat nose and added crimp groove and about as light as you are going to get without it having a "wine glass" stem.

Let's see what comments and interest come out of it. I can change the drawings to suit desires if the group wants change.

Once decided, if it turns into a group buy, I will send completely detailed drawings to you 338RemUltraMag. These only have the major dimensions on them so far.

Longbow

20-30 extra grains would be ok. hopefully we can get this rolling in the 55 dollar 2 cavity. 434 diameter would be perfect. unless you are gonna offer different diameters like the other $55 group buy like you got going on right now.

[338RemUltraMag]

As long as we use the same cherry I can run multiple diameters.

[jason f]

Looks like the collar buttons in different calibers are dead in the water. Doesn't seem to be much interest.

[william iorg]

Lyman is making a collar button mold now. Midway has them in stock.

They were out of stock when I looked and I asked for e-mail notification when they received more.
Got the notification this evening and ordered the mold.
Thanks for the tip.

[longbow]

Yup, looks like a bust.

Too bad, even though I have my Accurate lightweight I likely would have gotten one of these too... just because.

One benefit of this style (I think anyway) is the longer bearing length. Not much bearing surface but it is spread out. Makes for a super lightweight but should get good bore alignment which, I am guessing, is why Ideal came up the design in the first place. .45-70 plinkers and small game boolits. Great idea and I am surprised they weren't used in several calibers but the design seemed to be pretty limited in caliber.

Oh well.

Longbow

[jason f]

Longbow,
If you don't mind I am gonna email tom at accurate molds the 44 cal version of your drawing. His turnaround time says four weeks. Thanks jason

[prsman23]

I'd be in for a 45-70 version in a $55 variety.

[wiersy111]

I am interested in a .460 with a crimp groove, gas check, 150 to 200gr. I think they would make a nice boolit to shoot through my BFR.

[longbow]

Jason:

Tom can't make the large lube groove with his tooling. You can ask but last time I asked that was the answer, that's why I went with the 43-165B TC design. I would have preferred a longer bearing surface but Tom assured me that it wouldn't really matter and in all honesty I have no complaints with my Accurate mold.

I wanted as light as possible and the 43-165B is about as short as I would care to go and it is 165 grs.

Mind you, NOE did the pointy boolit buy and they got awfully light and short. I can't say I have seen any accuracy results posted though.

Anyway, go for it if you want. If you decide to go with Accuate, I can provide Tom with complete dimensions if he wants them so let me know.

Regardless, I can say that whatever you get from Tom will be a terrific mould. Excellent work and excellent service.

Longbow