Converting a S&W 64-7 to .327 Federal

[Crank]

Greetings,
I have previously posted a thread about a Winchester 1903 that I converted to .25ACP, mostly to annoy collectors and make most people question my sanity. :bigsmyl2: Now, I have located all of the parts and just started the wait to pick up a S&W 64-7 (10 day gun jail). I am usually a terrible one to remember documenting the stuff I do, so I am starting this thread to shame me into keeping a record. This conversion does not have any twisted underlying purpose, it stems from the complete lack of a full/medium size double action revolver for this under-appreciated cartridge. With the only full size DA revolver being the now discontinued GP-100, I finally decided that the only way to scratch this itch was to build it myself. I do not profess to be the first to do this, but merely, that I am the builder and I am doing it slightly different than others.

Ingredients: S&W 64-7 .38spl. from some law enforcement agency (qty. 1).
S&W 648-? .22WMR cylinder (qty. 2, in case I screw up).
????? 7.65mm/.311 barrel blank 5.5" long (qty. 2, for the same reason as above).
Evil squirrels currently taking up residence between my ears.

Tooling: Graziano 14X60 lathe.
Bridgeport 9X42 mill.
Miller TIG welder.
Various chucking reamers.
.327 Federal cylinder reamer (will rent when required).

Once the gun is in hand, I will be fitting the 648 clinder to the 64-7 frame for the tightest lockup, then I will line bore the chambers to the desired pilot size for the cylinder reamer, depending on wait, I may cut the cylinder chambers if the reamer is available. While waiting for the gun to be picked up, I have a spare model 64 barrel that I will be boring out to larger than thread diameter, which will actually turn it into nothing more than an outer sleeve or shroud. It will then be back bored from the muzzle to a larger diameter for a distance of 1-2". One of the blanks will be turned to the correct diameters needed and threads will be cut to fit the frame. The remainder of the barrel blank will be machined to the profile of the inside of the "sleeve", but the section that will seat in the back bored section will be several thousandths oversize for an interference fit. The blank will be chilled and the "sleeve" heated to allow the parts to go together and then become one once the temeratures equalize. I will probably also use sleeve retainer for a permanent fit. The barrel will then be fitted, indexed, cylinder gap set and forcing cone cut. Depending on my level of enthusiasm, most of this work is pretty quick, but timing the order for the rental chamber reamer, may affect my timeline. Once the work is done. I will weld up the caliber markings and have the barrel engraved with the new caliber. Maybe S&W will have an epiphany and finally reintoduce the Model 16 or create a 616, such as Green Frog has built. I love .32's and I only gunsmith anymore to build the hare-brained ideas that I am too cheap to pay someone else for. I have some pictures of the starting steps on the barrel and I will try to post them tonight.

Mark

[376Steyr]

Are you going to proof-test the completed gun to see if it all hangs together? Running .327 pressure in a cylinder that was intended for .22 Magnum would be my biggest concern.

Personally, I'd love to have a factory K-frame with a 6" barrel in .327 for a small game gun, squirrels to coyotes with the right loads.

[felix]

Mod 19s were a dime a dozen back in the heyday of the gun. Sized perfectly for the 327. Sleeve the barrel and cylinder holes. A JES job? ... felix

[Crank]

376Steyr,
Smith and Wesson's cylinders all start out from the same heat treated material and are bored as needed. Unless they suddenly decided to increase their costs by using two different materials, I am still safe, but thanks for the concern.

Felix,
Sleeves for the bore and cylinder holes would be uncomfortably thin, that's why I am doing the barrel this way and boring out a cylinder. No one considered the two/multiple piece barrels made currently by S&W or using the Dan Wesson designs as insufficiently strong, I am just doing it without a barrel nut.

Mark

[Crank]

felix,
I'm curious, what is a JES job?
Thanks

Mark

[3leggedturtle]

Well I hope to see a range report soon. Then you'll need to build a companion rifle or carbine for it. BTW JES also doesn't do .401 or .402 rebores. Wanted to send him a Handi to be r+r'ed to .38WCF

[Green Frog]

This topic has come up several times of late. I actually believe that a K-frame 327 S&W is an idea whose time has come, but since the bean counters at S&W haven't figured that out yet, I did it myself. :mrgreen: I had Project 616 out at the range today and I'm still glad I did it! :Fire: Follow my trials and tribulations here;

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/260686-project-616-a.html

Maybe you can save some time and avoid some pitfalls. ;)

Froggie

PS BTW, does the cylinder from the gun you are using have a normal looking extractor star or is it sort of an odd rectangle like that found on the Model 617?

[Crank]

Froggie,
It looks pretty normal in the star area, the cut for the extractor is a bit different, but so is the 64-7.

3leggedturtle,
Contact Clearwater Re-boring, he re-bored a wasted 32-20 1885 barrel to .400 with a 1:16 twist for me and I chambered it in 38-40. It is way more accurate than I can do it justice, his work is great, but it took about eight months turnaround. Well worth the wait, but don't expect it the week after you send it.

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds like it will be a decent project. The only thing I might do differently is to weld up the caliber markings before installing the liner.

Robert

[taco650]

Sounds like it will be a decent project. The only thing I might do differently is to weld up the caliber markings before installing the liner.

Robert

Agreed. Welding after may cause distortion that would interfere with assembly.

[Crank]

MK42 (5" type?),
I will be using TIG and will have an extremely small HAZ (heat affected zone), I won't even discolor the inside of the barrel. Been there, done that. I just have to drag everything out to set up the welder and I will knock out several odd jobs at one time.
Here are some of the barrel:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/SW%2027/20140318_202205_zps12a91358.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/SW%2027/20140318_202205_zps12a91358.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/SW%2027/20140318_202217_zpsb944a24f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/SW%2027/20140318_202217_zpsb944a24f.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/SW%2027/20140318_202410_zps76c142e5.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/SW%2027/20140318_202410_zps76c142e5.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/SW%2027/20140318_202431_zps90eebbd3.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/SW%2027/20140318_202431_zps90eebbd3.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/SW%2027/20140318_202545_zps964bc410.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/SW%2027/20140318_202545_zps964bc410.jpg.html)

Mark

[JHeath]

Are you this way about everything, or just guns?

I'm wondering if you drive a Citroen converted with a mid-engine 289, and live in a former church that you re-located over an abandoned missile silo.

If your guns are any indication, you're slamming those lifestyle choices right out of the park.

[Crank]

Jheath,
Now wait a minute! There is no reason to belittle an innocent 2CV. And as soon as I can get the roof mounted inter-cooler in a good location that won't tear through the fabric, I will have that GMC two stroke diesel running like a top. The Hari Krishna's were unwilling to alter the harmonious balance of the cosmic fields that intersected at the site and alas, the missile silo was a bust, my wife insisted on windows. So I tenuously pose as another member of society, with only my firearms as a means of expression. Did I also mention the evil squirrels?

Mark

[Crank]

JHeath,
I fell asleep laughing and I am still chuckling about your post this morning. The sad fact is, you have an uncanny insight into my natural desire to deviate from the mainstream. A lack of being independantly wealthy and the need to keep my wife from killing me, guides me down a humbler path. I have been gunsmithing over 25 years and I enjoy the road less travelled. My day job, troubleshooting and fixing cannons, provides a steady income and as I said, I do gunsmithing mostly for myself now. Of all the sites that I am a member of, this one has got to be one of the most fun to interact with. There is a great wealth of knowledge and cameraderie here and I hope to keep involved. Okay, with that said, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Mark

[JHeath]

!!!!

FWIW, I built designed, built, and operated acrobatic rigging for [famous Montreal circus]. I built a lot of mechanisms to fling attractive young women in leotards, or to dangle clowns, etc. That's "normal" for me, although I am transitioning into slightly more conventional industry.

One of my former employees was even written up by HR for "accidentally" farting on a clown. How's that for a reprimand to brag about?

But to get away from the humdrum, I come here to see what Crank is building today.

My (French-Canadian) wife is the same way about windows. Must be a chick thing.

[Mk42gunner]

MK42 (5" type?)...
Mark

Yes sir. Both Mod 9 and 10. There is just something fun when you light off 20 pounds of powder with each shot. Been a lot of years though.

It is really neat to watch a BL&P that you fired from OMC skip across the water six or seven times.

Robert

[Crank]

MK42,
I work on everthing from the 25MM M242 through the MK45 5". My bread and butter is the MK75 76MM and the MK44 30MM. All of those hydraulics on the 5" keep me learning! One of the other techs I work with has 40 years under his belt and has worked on everything up to the 16", I will regret when he retires this year, because he is such a wealth of knowledge.

JHeath,
Nothing beats a job where no two days are alike. Yesterday I was rebuilding and re-installing a valve block on the cradle of a 5" gun and today we were using a sledgehammer to set the headspace on a 76MM cannon (not joking, thats how it's done). I must admit that I can't quite get the mental image of the clown incident out of my head.

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

I'd get a job at SIMA if it weren't for the ~1700 mile commute.

I truly loathed the batteries for the 25mm. I thought they should have used a power supply instead.

Robert

[taco650]

Getting off topic boys with all the cannon speak LOL! Crank, don't you have that thing done yet?

[Crank]

taco,
If you weren't a squid, you wouldn't understand :lol:. I was going to try to get the reaming done on the barrel tonight, but a couple of friends descended on my garage and beer ensued. I should have the "shroud" finished this weekend and I will start profiling the barrel blank. I will warn any readers that I suffer from the firearms version of ADHD and often wind up with more irons in the fire than any sane person would. I am trying to finalize several of my long term projects while diving into new endeavors as they strike my fancy. I promise to take more picture to reassure you that I am staying focused. Squirrel!

MK42,
You dated yourself by saying SIMA, it is now SWRMC (Southwest Regional Maintenance Center) and the commute would be a slight inconvenience.

Mark

[taco650]

So I'm a squid...

Not sure how to respond to being slammed on the internet.

[Crank]

taco,
LOL:lol:. Just the opposite, You would have to have been in the Navy, Navy=squid.

Mark

[taco650]

taco,
LOL:lol:. Just the opposite, You would have to have been in the Navy, Navy=squid.

Mark

Ok, I'm tracking now.

FYI Mark, never been in the military. Became a cop a few years back so I do wear a uniform, a 9mm sidearm (and 20lbs of other "stuff") everyday at work but that's as close as I've come to it.

Enough about me. Have you made any progress?

[Crank]

taco,
I promise I will make some progress this weekend. I want to try and go to the range (45min - hour, each way) for a quick test of the .25ACP rifle to see if some of my hand loads will shoot and cycle. With that behind me, I can get some work done on the lathe. I can guarantee that this project will be one of the easier/quicker endeavors to get done. This one requires very little engineering beyond my design approach to the barrel, the rest is just a matter of performing the machine operations.

Keep safe, my Dad was a cop and retired 22 years ago, but the world of law enforcement has changed and I don't think he misses it one bit. You have my respect for doing it, because I don't have the personality for it.

Mark

[taco650]

Just read your range report on the 25 auto rifle project (which I've been following as well) and am pleased to see it make some progress. I will wait for more to come on this 327 project.

I've only been policing a couple years. Its a second career for me & when I told my friends what I was doing several said they could see me as a cop so I guess I have the "personality" for it... whatever that is LOL!

[Crank]

taco,
Here you go. I got the boring of the "sleeve" completed and profiled the blank. The only big task will be threading the barrel and then a simple job to crown the muzzle and after it is fit to the gun (which is still in it's 10 day holding pattern) cut the forcing cone. All of the photos include an unmodified example.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140322_190310_zps50ef8b2f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140322_190310_zps50ef8b2f.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140322_190517_zps8a1f5b7f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140322_190517_zps8a1f5b7f.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140322_190458_zps2fdc55c4.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140322_190458_zps2fdc55c4.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140322_190341_zps0c8681ed.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140322_190341_zps0c8681ed.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140322_190327_zps481d3bfe.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140322_190327_zps481d3bfe.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140322_190310_zps50ef8b2f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140322_190310_zps50ef8b2f.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140322_190536_zps86c25048.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140322_190536_zps86c25048.jpg.html)

I have no idea when I will cut the threads, but I will keep you posted.

Mark

P.S. I regards to Law enforcement, I should probably say temperament, I would try to keep the peace, but if someone got under my skin, I would prefer to "educate" them. Worked great in the Navy, not so good in the civilian world.

[taco650]

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of how you're going to do the barrel.

The bored-out factory barrel (now simply a sleeve) will be held in place via friction with the barrel body as well as the shoulder you left on the muzzle end of the barrel "liner". Also, when the barrel/cylinder gap is where you want it, you'll crown the muzzle to match the sleeve? Kinda like a Dan Wesson is what I'm picturing (except the barrel nut is part of the barrel).

[Green Frog]

Crank,

I've been following your description of this and kinda scratching my head... now I think I understand. If I'm interpreting your pictures correctly, you are making a barrel the same OD as the major threads of the tenon where it goes through the frame. Then you are reaming the "original" barrel to fit over that like the Dan Wesson used and that will be attached to it. This will eliminate the thinned out section of liner and/or threaded area of the original barrel that keeps smiths from wanting to use a "normal" sleeved barrel in a 327 FM. How about attachment to the outer portion... will it be soldered, glued or what? If you've got this last question covered, I'd say you have a winner there. I too will be eagerly waiting the next installment on your progress, since buying a Model 617 barrel and having it reamed and re-rifled was the most expensive and time consuming portion of my project.

Regards,
Froggie

PS I don't know how this would fit into your plans, but I believe that Brownell's sells a die to fit the threads of a S&W barrel.

PPS Just reread original post... I'm a slow study! I'm not sure how that attachment will hold together as you do the final torque of the barrel into the frame. Why not turn the whole barrel to the same diameter, do all the fitting of (inner) barrel to frame (with proper headspace) then affix the "shroud" to the outside without having any rotational force applied? I'm thinking a locating pin or set screw or something if the standard soft solder, epoxy, etc methods don't work.

[Stonecrusher]

Are you using the barrel blanks from Gun Parts Corp? Your picture looks just like the one on their website. I have been eyeing them myself but was a little leery because of the price, $14.00. What is the quality of the bore? Been thinking of getting some for a project similar to yours.

[JHeath]

I get it. You're the guy that works on diesel-electric locomotives all day, then spends his evenings building an HO railroad in the basement . . .

[Crank]

Okay I had started my reply, but my "token" expired and I lost everything I had typed.

taco,
You are pretty much on track. The difference is that after I cut the threads, I will use heat and dry ice to allow the parts to slip together. I will also use an evil product known as sleeve retainer to make sure the parts never separate. At that point, I can trim the muzzle end and crown it. After the cylinder is fitted, I can set the bbl./cyl. gap and cut a forcing cone. It will be an extreme example of friction, since the parts will be an interference fit.

Froggie,
You have it correct and that is why my approach can't really be called a liner. Thanks for the note about the die from Brownell's, not sure I will use it, but it is an option. See above why the barrel won't spin in the shroud.

Stoncrusher,
Yes, those are the blanks from GPC. Bores look good and I also bought a blank from Green Mountain in case I wasn't happy with the quality, but the difference was minimal and for a 4" fixed sight gun I think it will be up to the task. If I build another with a longer barrel, I will use the GM blank (20").

JHeath,
Your powers of observation are beyond reproach. However, it was the other way around, I have been tinkering since I was a teen, went to gun-smithing school in my early 20's to "learn" something and did it for years to supplement my income and then was blessed with a golden opportunity to move up to cannons in my 40's. The man upstairs has a delightful sense of humor.

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

Okay, now I figured out what was bugging me about this project- the S&W Model 64 is a fixed sight gun. Wouldn't it be better to use an adjustable sight version as the donor gun?

I like fixed sight K frames, (probably better than adjustable ones) but in this case I really think the adjustable rear sight would be better.

Robert

[Crank]

Robert,
I am saving that for the next gun. My favorite wheel gun is my S&W Mod 58 in .41, that's includes my Python. I like fixed sight revolvers. I am one of those people that finds a load and I tend to stick with it, so once I find the right one I will regulate the sights for that . For any other load, I will learn the hold for it. The next gun is going to be an 8" Dan Wesson, but that one will stay in a holding pattern until I finish this one. So have no fear, I will have a fixed sight workhorse and an adjustable sight target gun.

Mark

[leftiye]

Making them underlugs for the front lock on S&W barrels can be a daunting problem when making an S&W barrel from scratch. I applaud your great, super, and very good solution to this problem.

I cheated and put a S&W model 16 barrel and cylinder on a model 10, reamed the chamber just a tad (chambers were quite over long on the .32 H&R mag. cylinder) to accept .327 ctgs.. Putting an adjustable sight on it was the fun part. That and fitting the factory new (with lotsa extra metal on the ratchit) cylinder.

[Mk42gunner]

Mark,

I certainly understand the one gun, one load concept. I bought my first Vaquero with that in mind, I just need to settle on a load.

Robert

[Green Frog]

Crank, where were you when I was setting up Project 616? I needed to know about that 648 cylinder to save Andy a ton of work! I just went on and ordered one to have on hand "just in case" since the 617 cylinders I have found all have that screwy extractor that had to be reshaped (by Andy, at extra cost) to make it work with the 327 FM. I never even thought of the 648 before, but I've got it now. Still want to hear reports on your progress!

Froggie

[Crank]

Froggie,
Hopefully I have not led you astray for an inappropriate part. I just took some photos of the donor.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140325_181247_zps4ecb5c9f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140325_181247_zps4ecb5c9f.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140325_181226_zpsf2900481.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140325_181226_zpsf2900481.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140325_181213_zps2537ba87.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140325_181213_zps2537ba87.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140325_181142_zpsc609efad.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140325_181142_zpsc609efad.jpg.html)

I think I know what you meant by the square cut and this ain't it. The reason for picking it was cost, $64.00 vs. $295.00. I never gave a thought to the extractor shape, so it looks like I dodged a bullet (or maybe an extractor?):bigsmyl2:

Mark

[Green Frog]

Crank, when S&W made the -1 update to their rim fires, they changed the shape of the extractor head. If you look at the extractor head in isolation as per your third picture, the shape of the "blank" would have been a rectangle, with two of the notches for the extractor cuts coming out of the narrow ends and then two on each of the longer sides. This keeps the extractor in its recess nicely, even without the old locating pins we see in earlier extractors, but makes cutting the larger 327 rim size a nightmare. Andy had to build up my extractor then recut everything. :groaner: It's working about right now, but I wanted some insurance as well... I'm planning on keeping this gun for a long time. :grin:

Froggie

[TheGrimReaper]

This is going to be AWSOME!!!

[Crank]

Okay, if my enthusiasm is adequate I will try to get some threads cut tonight so I can put the barrel together. I will be able to rescue the gun from my dealer tomorrow, so if I have the lions share of the barrel work done, that is one less thing to distract me. I will make sure to take pictures as I go.

Mark

[taco650]

Okay, if my enthusiasm is adequate I will try to get some threads cut tonight so I can put the barrel together. I will be able to rescue the gun from my dealer tomorrow, so if I have the lions share of the barrel work done, that is one less thing to distract me. I will make sure to take pictures as I go.

Mark

I resemble that comment often. Doesn't bother me though but it can drive my wife crazy LOL! Does that mean I'm lazy???:coffeecom

[Crank]

taco,
Enthusiasm is a commodity, that comes and goes. I despise people that seem to have an unending surplus, so I guess that makes me a grouch. I got the barrel together, but I am less than happy with the threads. They may work fine but I won't do anything until I can perform a test fit. Those are some very fine threads and are a pain in the rear end to cut. I will try to get the pictures up tomorrow.

Mark

[taco650]

Crank,

You're not a grouch, you're a "realist". Keeping reality in view is a lost art in this day when image is everything.

Looking forward to a progress report pictorial.

[3leggedturtle]

I always thought a Single Six with a 9mm barrel and 5 shot cylinder would be a great combo. Old Model of course. You ever thought that way? My other fun pistol would be a stainless Secrity six in 45Auto with 5 shot cylinder. Only to keep my T/C Contender .45 Auto Carbine company.

[Crank]

turtle,
You might be able to make a cylinder, but the walls of the barrel would probably be too thin to prevent the forcing cone from cracking on either one.

Mark

[taco650]

I always thought a Single Six with a 9mm barrel and 5 shot cylinder would be a great combo. Old Model of course. You ever thought that way? My other fun pistol would be a stainless Secrity six in 45Auto with 5 shot cylinder. Only to keep my T/C Contender .45 Auto Carbine company.

44 or 41 special would be a better choice for the Security Six IMO. I think Hamilton Bowen has already done this.

[Crank]

As promised! This is what I accomplished last night.

This shows the threads being cut.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140327_180659_zpsddbd029a.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140327_180659_zpsddbd029a.jpg.html)

Here is the barrel pressed into place and the excess threads.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140327_202259_zps4126c982.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140327_202259_zps4126c982.jpg.html)

Muzzle trued, but no crown yet.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140327_202314_zps5410325d.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140327_202314_zps5410325d.jpg.html)

Back end of the barrel.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140327_202325_zps3e9d582c.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140327_202325_zps3e9d582c.jpg.html)

The next post has what I did today.

[Crank]

Here is what happened as soon as I got home with it.
I was a bit impatient and hadn't even pulled the tag off, but the barrel and cylinder were out in a jiffy.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_163517_zps2298bb37.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_163517_zps2298bb37.jpg.html)

First modification that had to happen, the boss on the frame is for a cylinder without recessed case heads, so that causes an interference with the 648 cylinder which is recessed.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_163708_zps620d4867.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_163708_zps620d4867.jpg.html)

Another view of the interference.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_163732_zpsb8a72c2c.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_163732_zpsb8a72c2c.jpg.html)

The hand is too long and this is as far as the hammer will go back, I will have to spend a few minutes fitting the hand when I open up the action.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_163857_zps3ece6279.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_163857_zps3ece6279.jpg.html)

The beginning of removing the boss.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_164743_zpsad8cb7da.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_164743_zpsad8cb7da.jpg.html)

Almost gone.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_165825_zpsf684ded7.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_165825_zpsf684ded7.jpg.html)

Much better!
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_170045_zps6310b390.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_170045_zps6310b390.jpg.html)

Blended nicely.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140328_170058_zps5e7f4469.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140328_170058_zps5e7f4469.jpg.html)

That is what I got done today, I spent about 45 minutes total. The next hurdle will be to fit the hand and then set up to line bore the cylinder. Not sure when I will dig in again, but it is coming along well. I got lucky, the new cylinder was a perfect fit, indexed flawlessly and had no end-play, along with a solid lock-up.


Mark

[taco650]

Looking good!

[Gibbs44]

Nice, and now I'm subscribed. Can't wait to see how this project turns out.

[Green Frog]

Looking good! 8-) Your frame boss/lug looks factory after you reshaped it and having too much hand is certainly a good thing compared to having one that is too short! ;) I'm still not 100% sure about how that "2 piece barrel" is going to hold together when you torque it into place, but if it goes as planned you are certainly going to be a winner there. If I could have had my Model 67 with mid-weight ribbed barrel and adj sights done the same way, I would have been a very happy camper. :guntootsmiley: BTW, is the donor barrel that became your "super liner" made of stainless or carbon steel? Inquiring minds... :coffeecom

Froggie

[Crank]

Froggie,
You have deduced wisely grasshopper. I am indeed guilty of marrying a carbon liner to a stainless outer. That liner will strip the threads out of the frame before it would spin in the shroud. That is a definitely a permanent bond. I showed up 4 minutes after the industrial hardware place closed today, so no chucking reamers to start the cylinder today. Maybe Monday, I will take a ride up and get what I need.

Mark

[Old School Big Bore]

Subscribing. Did you time the threads to line the assembly up at 12:00 prior to bonding the barrel in the shroud, or will you face the back of the shroud to do that before finalizing the length of the threaded portion of the barrel?

[Crank]

OSBB,
No, I will face the rear of the shroud to get my clock position set. I joined the parts the night before I got the gun and it would have been virtually impossible to get it right while swaging them together.

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

Think positive, you have a 1 in 21,600 chance of having it line up less than a minute off, (my calculator is tired or I'd tell you in seconds).

The nice thing about using stainless guns for projects is that you don't have to try to match the existing finish wherever you adjust the fit of parts.

This project is kind of making me think about finding a donor grade K-frame for a .32 H&R.

It isn't like I don't have enough half finished projects laying around now.

Robert

[Old School Big Bore]

It makes me feel like doing an M28 in .32-20 with a other crane & cylinder in .327...

[Crank]

Mk42,
Heck that's better than the lottery! The more I look at the parts, the happier I am that I used a current production example, the uniformity of construction is working in my favor. I will agree that the new generation have their share of complaints, due to the changes in production, such as MIM parts and the internal lock, but I can live with that.

OSBB,
The major hurdle would be the cylinder, you have no other option other than sleeving an existing one, along with the complexity of welding up and machining the extractor. I just sold off a trashed 27-2 after losing too much sleep over ways to do the job right.

For the rest of you, I did fit the hand, it was quick and painless (about 15 minutes). It turned out that it was not a matter of being too short, but rather a bit too wide at the top and was binding on the star. It cycles and locks up smooth now with no complaints.

Mark

[Old School Big Bore]

There is one firm, I lost track of who, making cylinders with just pilot holes, lockup cuts and blank extractors.

[Crank]

OSBB,
Bowen is who you are thinking of, but they only offer one for a K-frame.

Mark

[leftiye]

For the rest of you, I did fit the hand, it was quick and painless (about 15 minutes). It turned out that it was not a matter of being too short, but rather a bit too wide at the top and was binding on the star. It cycles and locks up smooth now with no complaints

Kewl! I was wondering how it could lock up tight (or lock up at all) with a too long hand.

Post# 49 - "The hand is too long and this is as far as the hammer will go back, I will have to spend a few minutes fitting the hand when I open up the action."

[Green Frog]

I'm getting addicted to this thread. I can't wait for the next installment. When I was involved in Project 616, I had a lot of wait time I couldn't control, but it looks like Crank is able to do whatever work he needs as his own schedule permits. I'd love to see more! :coffeecom

Froggie

[Old School Big Bore]

Gave me the bug for sure. Tryin to decide K frame .25 Hornet or .32-20.

[Crank]

Now you see why I bounce from project to project and have decided to enjoy doing work for myself. If I get down time and I have the enthusiasm, I find something to tinker with in the interim, you know, "idle hands are the devil's workshop". I warned people that my focus is all over the place as I suddenly find a new shiny object to play with. While staring at the stalled progress on the .327, I dug out a Frank Wesson .38RF rifle and stripped it down to see about converting it to centerfire in the meantime. Don't worry, that's a backburner one for now, the .327 is my primary focus at the moment (the .25ACP rifle is in second place;-)).

Mark

[Green Frog]

Crank, I hereby declare you my "brother from a different mother!" ;) You are definitely a man after my own heart and live by my... LOOK THERE GOES A SQUIRREL!... very own pattern. :mrgreen: I had a package waiting for me in the old mail box from Numrich/GPC. Wow, I wish I had known about that S&W cylinder... it would have saved Andy a bunch of work, me a bunch of money, and probably would have resulted in a bit nicer final look as well. Now I have it "in stock" for the opportunity to build another 616 or if the cylinder or extractor on this one give me any difficulties.

Will you be reporting on the Frank Wesson as well? I'm a longtime member of the American Single Shot Rifle Association and have a soft spot in my heart (or is it my head?) for anything fired from the shoulder and reloaded after each shot. :) Please let me know how I can follow your progress on that endeavor.

Regards,
"Brother" Frog :mrgreen:

PS I found a 617 Cylinder like the one I used on GB... I'll try to attach a picture so you'll see what I mean.

[Crank]

Okay, I lied. I will start another thread to avoid hijacking myself.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?237012-Frank-Wesson-38RF-to-CF-conversion&p=2717204#post2717204

[Crank]

One of the things that helps me out is that I am a parts ferret and have enough useless information on makes, models, calibers, variants, etc.. running around this eccentric brain, is that I can usually identify what I need or can alter. Having attended (but not finished) college for a degree in Mechanical Engineering, with a focus on Manufacturing Engineering was also a great help.

Mark

[Crank]

Froggie,
I see what you mean about the weird shape for the extractor and can see it would cause problems.

Mark

[Ramjet-SS]

I took the easy route I sent the cylinder Out of my K-Frame Model 16-4 to Bowen had it re chambered 327 I am following this with interest.

[Green Frog]

I took the easy route I sent the cylinder Out of my K-Frame Model 16-4 to Bowen had it re chambered 327 I am following this with interest.

Yeah, but then you've gotta start with a Model 16... that's cheating! Where's the challenge there? :kidding:

Froggie

[Crank]

Froggie,
Don't be bitter, I have parts for my Dan Wesson coming to convert an 8" .357 to .32 and I will punch that chamber to .327, so I am guilty of the easy option if available.

Mark

[Michael J. Spangler]

Tagged for updates. Great work!

[Green Frog]

Crank, I thought of that same conversion, but the prices on DW 357s and their parts have gotten crazy here. Of course all you really need is a 357, a 22 cylinder and a 327 reamer, and a piece of suitable 32 cal barrel stock, so it shouldn't be too tough to gather if the prices were reasonable.

Froggie

[Crank]

Froggie,
I know, I just looked at my account balance:shock::shock:. To boot, the cylinders are in the white and I have to fit and chamber them, oh well. I will hopefully have some more updates later today.

Mark

[Crank]

Okay, got the cylinder bored out to .302, might have to polish to .303 for reamer pilot. There are other photos, but my minion took them and hasn't sent them to me, so this is all I have. I also cleaned up the threads, machined the end that protrudes into the frame, cut most of the excess off and removed .008 off the back of the shoulder to clock the barrel.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140405_171642_zps8dd4a8c4.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140405_171642_zps8dd4a8c4.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140405_174701_zpsfd3b58f9.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140405_174701_zpsfd3b58f9.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140405_174710_zps9c30be31.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140405_174710_zps9c30be31.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140405_174749_zps327e78df.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140405_174749_zps327e78df.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140405_174757_zpsce84f164.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140405_174757_zpsce84f164.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140405_174806_zpsfec72c83.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140405_174806_zpsfec72c83.jpg.html)

Yes, I know, none of the pictures show the barrel snugged up, that was because I wanted to show it with the cylinder in place.

That's all I have for now, I will put the cylinder reamer on order, then putter with the barrel/cyl. gap, throat and crown when I get a chance during the week. I spent about 3-4 hours getting today's work done, so I was happy with the outcome.

Mark

[Old School Big Bore]

Sweet.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yeah, but then you've gotta start with a Model 16... that's cheating! Where's the challenge there? :kidding:

Froggie


exactly :)

[Green Frog]

Ah, I can relax. I've had my "fix" for a day or so. Good work, Crank. Keep on keeping on! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[taco650]

Ah, I can relax. I've had my "fix" for a day or so. Good work, Crank. Keep on keeping on! :mrgreen:

Froggie

Me too! I was almost getting the shakes!:kidding:

[Crank]

Okay, here are some of the other photos, don't mind the fat guy on the right, that's just me. Not the most informative, but at least somebody else took them for me.

For informational purposes, after considering the consistency of the chambers, I decided to indicate off the chambers and plunge with the reamer to keep things simple. This way the cylinder was locked firmly in the mill vise to prevent chatter and since my mill is true, I was comfortable that I was boring them concentric for the full depth. Two sizes were used, .250 for the initial pass and .303 for the second. Each was a matter of feeding in increments, cleaning away the chips and flooding with cutting fluid during each pass. No rocket science involved.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/photo_zpsa70a306a.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/photo_zpsa70a306a.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/image_2_zps227d6627.jpeg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/image_2_zps227d6627.jpeg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/image_1_zps0b7cb4f4.jpeg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/image_1_zps0b7cb4f4.jpeg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/image_zps7cd0dad5.jpeg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/image_zps7cd0dad5.jpeg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/image_3_zpsf2b15399.jpeg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/image_3_zpsf2b15399.jpeg.html)

Not much happened today, I machined the excess length off the rear of the barrel, but I need an 11 degree cutter for my throat, so I will try to get one. Other than that, I will be placing an order soon for a couple of reamers to knock out this and another job for a friend to chamber a Stevens 44 1/2 in 30-30. That one was an interesting experiment in sleeving a chamber from 30-06 to .30 cal. Hopefully it will work.

Mark

[Chev. William]

Too bad you missed firing a '16 inch one' if I recall correctly they ran 5 Bags of powder, at 55 lbs each, to lob a 1600 to 2200 lb 'bullet' out about 26+ miles.
Chuckling,
Best Regards,
Chev. William


Yes sir. Both Mod 9 and 10. There is just something fun when you light off 20 pounds of powder with each shot. Been a lot of years though.

It is really neat to watch a BL&P that you fired from OMC skip across the water six or seven times.

Robert

[Mk42gunner]

Just fate. I was in A school when they were manning at least one of the battlewagons. The cycle of classes immediately before ours were almost all sent to a BB, and I think the cycle behind us too.

I had fun on tincans and small arms ranges, not so much on the junk boat and gator.

Personally, I want to see how crank's .327 comes out. It will be a while before I can afford to do it, tax bills bite.

Robert

[Crank]

Funny that you mention cost. I will have to itemize what I wind up using in this build. So far I have $450 for the gun with taxes and fees, $125 for the cylinder, barrel and a donor .38 barrel and $215 in tooling so far. The only other expense will be the reamer. At least that I know of so far.

Mark

[Green Frog]

Mark, you left out the cost of your machinery and the ability (and time it takes) to use it. For those of us who have avoided learning how to actually do anything useful this becomes a significant portion of the expense. May your number increase as the rest of us depend on your type and their good will to get virtually anything done! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Crank]

Oh that little bit! My lathe and mill only set me back $12K, ability (dubious at best) is 25+ years of being too cheap to pay someone else, roughtly 10-12 hours to this point, but who's counting. As for more people that will seriously apply themselves to gunsmithing, the future isn't so bright. Trades in general are being gutted by the educational system and kids don't want to get their hands dirty, much less face the specter of having to keep learning. The day I quit learning, it's time to pitch dirt on me. Even when I went through the Gunsmithing program many, many, years ago, we were already starting to see students that wanted to "specialize" (=I don't want to bother with learning more). That is why I go by Crank, in honor of the old school "guncranks" that worked with whatever came in the door and learned how to fix anything by any means possible. I would hightly recommend "The Modern Gunsmith" by Howe, it is a very well thought out book that covers many facets of the trade. It was first printed in 1934 and I was blind lucky enough to stumble across a first edition signed by the author. It is one of those well read and treasured books. I fall far short of the skills that many before me have had and will gladly defer to those today who leave me in the dust.

Mark

[Green Frog]

I have a (later, non-autographed) copy of Modern Gunsmithing which I have carefully read; I own a lathe and a small horizontal mill with which I can easily turn high priced parts and stock into expensive scrap with great success. This has led me to subscribe to Dirty Harry's advice, "A man ought to know his limitations" and limit myself to planning and dreaming while leaving truly skilled artisans with the execution of these ideas. I'm a parts changer, but anything other than minor fitting is something I try to avoid. Again, this just magnifies my respect for those of you who can do the real gunsmithing! Here's to you! :drinks:

Froggie

[taco650]

Crank, I agree with your sentiments about the trades. I did collision repair for the better part of 20 years. I worked on whatever rolled in the door. I didn't have the opportunity to specialize or be picky about what brand or type of vehicle I worked on. Sure, I preferred Ford pickups to Mercedes (God forbid if a Jag came in the door!) but I did them all. No manual to learn from (except for airbags) just start looking at what would come off easy and keep going. I left the painting to the painter but I could do that too. Unfortunately, the bills still needed to be paid and it got point where steady work was more important than staying in the biz so changes were made.

Crank is an artist with guns. Be happy to let him work on mine anytime as long as he gave me what I asked for LOL!. I think his imagination gets in control a little too often.:kidding:

[Crank]

Thank you all for the unwarranted praise:oops:, I couldn't even hold a candle to many that ply the trade today and certainly not those who have gone before me.
Froggie,
Take things slowly and practice at every chance you get. I would be a liar if I said I never messed something up, I just sucked it up and tried again. The toughest thing for most people is visualizing ALL of the steps to do something. Many think of the obvious steps and neglect the little stuff, those "minor" items are often the most difficult. I visualize every step and the means to accomplish it, yet I still find Murphy lurking in the wings.

taco,
Nonsense, I just do what the squirrels tell me to do. If it wasn't what you expected you mistakenly asked for the wrong thing;-).

Nise,
I realize that that you will be waiting with breath that smells like bait, OOPS! I meant bated breath.

No updates tomorrow, I will be merrily steaming around the Pacific as one of the INSURV inspectors on a floaty gray thing until late tomorrow night. Stay tuned for our next exciting adventure! Hopefully it won't be Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea :shock:!

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

Boy that is something I really don't miss, INSURV. It wasn't so bad getting our own spaces ready, what I did not like was having to "help" the snipes get their spaces ready for INSURV and OPPE. They never, never, helped us when we were getting ready for our NTPI or any Ordnance inspections.

It would be neat to be one of the people that cause sweat pumps to go online, though.

I am keeping my eyes open for an affordable lathe with at least some tooling, I figure I can learn a lot by making small tools that I remember wanting.

Robert

[Chev. William]

Sears Craftsman Commercial 12 inch Lathes come on the market occasionally and they were built with both Short and a Long Bed. I 'picked one up' for $300 and have spent another roughly $600 on miscellaneous parts to replace broken or missing items. This one had "melted Roofing " all over it form a Shop fire. It is about 50% cleaned up now and is slowly getting Primed and Painted. This one has a 54" Bed, Quick Change Threading Gearbox, Power Cross feed, and is an 'Under drive' style with the motor and speed change belts and pullies in the pedestal below the Head stock.
It has an 1-1/2" x 8 TPI spindle nose with a #3 Morris Taper in the Spindle and a #2 MT in the Tail stock.

One accessory I bought on Ebay was a set of 3C collets and their spindle adapters.

I have seen similar Lathes in much better condition on Ebay in the range of $800 to $1800.

Just keep your eyes open.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[jmoore]

... Other than that, I will be placing an order soon for a couple of reamers to knock out this and another job for a friend to chamber a Stevens 44 1/2 in 30-30. That one was an interesting experiment in sleeving a chamber from 30-06 to .30 cal. Hopefully it will work.

Mark

Ought to be OK. I sleeved for a fellow a Japanese Type 99 LMG's barrel with a short section of AK chamber and throat. Interference fit with no high temp LocTite the second time. (The first was attempted with the cylindrical fit version of the locking agent but the heated barrel cooked it off before the liner was fully seated! Had to bore that one out.)

At any rate the business stayed together in a full auto enviroment!

Green Frog linked to this thread. Have read the whole thing with interest as a similar project languishes on the bench. Not the same approach, but the end result should be a .32 S&WL or .32 H&R mag. in a K frame.

[Green Frog]

The lathe I inherited is an 11" Lempco (which is actually a rebadged Sheldon, made for the automotive trade in about the late '40s) with a 36" bed. The good news is that it has a 1 3/8 x8 tpi spindle with a 1 1/8" bore, the bad news is that it takes hard-to find 4-C collets (I've got a good selection) and has pick-change gears for threading instead of a quick change setup. :( My little mill is an Atlas MFC that I bought from a friend but haven't gotten set up yet. I partially retired 10 years ago, so maybe now that I'm actually turning 65 I'll get all of this stuff up and running and figure out how to make something besides expensive scrap with it. Who has a Registered Magnum they want me to learn on? :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Chev. William]

I have this Foehl and Weeks design Hammerless top break Revolver "kit" that was in a Fire, it stil has parts of the Grips on it with the F&W Logo molded in. It took me about two months of soaking it in "Enviro-Rust" to get it clean enough to make out that it was marked as manufactured by Howard Arms co. of Chicago, Ill. and actually had a serial number vaguely visible on the Bottom of the Butt. Just think of the "Fun" finding extractor and actuator parts to restore complete but fire eroded Display condition with a functioning action. By the way it seems to be a .38 S&W Short Revolver (a 38 S&W Special Case only goes in part way).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

MK42,
I would suggest keep an eye on your local Craigslist, lathes turn up with regularity. The tough part is educating yourself on what to look for, so you don't buy a piece of scrap metal. If you want, PM me and we can discuss suggestions.

Chev,
That is a great unit for most tinkerers, it is large enough to do serious work on occasion and small enough to work well in a limited space environment. I will keep an eye peeled if I come across any parts for you.

jmoore,
I should have clarified, I know that it will work mechanically, I am hoping we can trick the barrel into performing like it was never cut for a chamber. This will be a 44 1/2 in 30-30 for target shooting. I sleeved the chamber with a section of .30 cal barrel and used both an interference fit and sleeve retaining compound. At least with a one shooter, it will never get hot enough to affect the sleeve retainer. I have shot the 99LMG in the original 7.7mm and Chicom modified form in 7.62x39 and they are fantastic shooters.

Froggie,
Sounds like a nice lathe, I think I have an original Colt Walker you could practice on (just kidding!:lol:).

On the lighter side, there was a nice package of .327 brass waiting for me when I got home last night:D!

Mark

[Green Frog]

Froggie,
Sounds like a nice lathe, I think I have an original Colt Walker you could practice on (just kidding!:lol:).

On the lighter side, there was a nice package of .327 brass waiting for me when I got home last night:D!

Mark

Good snag on the brass... was it from the newest run by Starline? From the batch I bought out of their last run I have used a RCBS expander with OK results, but have to "tread lightly" when I use the proper (.314") spud in my Lyman through-the-die expander and powder drop... it wants to grab the brass and hold onto it. I solved most of the problem by using a small amount of case lube on the spud itself to keep it slicked up. The only problem is, I have to renew the application about every 20 rounds or so. I do like the result though, getting the mouth belled just enough to take the bullet and dropping just the right charge of powder through my Accu-Measure™ powder measure all at one station on my Lyman All American™ turret press. I'm not quite ready for a Walker Colt... maybe I should just start with a pristine Python! :mrgreen:

I inherited the lathe from my aged grand uncle who was a machinist from the 19 teens on and did hobby gunsmithing on the side, so I know it is capable of doing good work, it's just the loose nut on the controls that presents most of the problem. As for the mill, I bought it from a gunsmith friend from Michigan who did some fine work on it before moving up to a bigger one. It has capabilities far beyond my own, so I have to grow into both of them. I made one of those typical milling attachments designed to use with a lathe, but I'm thinking it would actually be better suited to use on the mill so I can do vertical-type work with that horizontal mill. :)

Froggie

PS Look for an incoming PM later. :coffeecom

[Mk42gunner]

I have this Foehl and Weeks design Hammerless top break Revolver "kit" that was in a Fire, it stil has parts of the Grips on it with the F&W Logo molded in. It took me about two months of soaking it in "Enviro-Rust" to get it clean enough to make out that it was marked as manufactured by Howard Arms co. of Chicago, Ill. and actually had a serial number vaguely visible on the Bottom of the Butt. Just think of the "Fun" finding extractor and actuator parts to restore complete but fire eroded Display condition with a functioning action. By the way it seems to be a .38 S&W Short Revolver (a 38 S&W Special Case only goes in part way).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

I have a .32 S&W Howard Arms top break that came to me in well rusted condition. From the research I did once I could read the top of the barrel to get the name, Howard Arms was a hardware wholesale company in Chicago; so no telling who actually made their guns. I think Sears, Roebuck & Co. bought them out but am not sure on that.

Mine has a very pitted bore, but you can still see a bit of twist in the grooves, so I don't know if I will ever get to shoot it or not. It may end up being a wall hanger.

I remember it works one way and sometimes the other, but I can't remember is it is single action that works or double action. I may have to get it out of the diesel fuel bath to find out. It was rusty enough that I wasn't going to even try to turn a screw without a thorough soaking.

Crank,

My problem is I can find the little table top miniature lathes for about what the imports sell for new; but when I have money, I can't find anything decent large enough to thread a rifle barrel. When I don't have the spendable money is when the deals turn up. One of these days I will find something.

Robert

[Green Frog]

Robert,

The problem is that almost everyone who wants a lathe wants the same size, one around 10" or so with a large enough headstock to take a barrel to be threaded, etc. You can frequently find a big old 15-18" lathe going wanting for a home and selling for scrap, but the good "hobby" size will be thin on the ground. You just have to keep looking. [smilie=w: Then wait for the fun of getting an appropriate mill to make your shop more complete! :shock: It pays to network! :coffeecom

Froggie

[Mk42gunner]

Froggie,

Lathe, mill, shaper, surface grinder, the list of tools and machines wanted is exceeded only by the emptiness of my billfold.

First order of business is to fix the leaky tin roof on my barn/shop, I just can't see having to cover precision machines with a tarp. Second would be to run electricity to it. (Why didn't I do that when copper wire was cheap?)

A good stove for those winter projects might be nice too.

I am slowly saving money, maybe the next time I see or hear about a deal I will be able to make something happen.

Good idea on not discounting one of the larger machines; larger should mean more rigid also, right?

Thanks for the encouragement,

Robert

[Chev. William]

Mk42gunner,
Chortling while typing - You might consider using an overhead 'line shaft' to power the Lathe and a Horizontal Mill. you could always run the line shaft with an electric motor, a Waterwheel, a Wind Turbine, or a Steam Engine (the last would also allow heating the shop at the same time) Admittedly you would need to watch for auctions of old Farm Shop machinery to find tools suitable for the line shaft central power method but if Sierra Railway and the Sacramento Railroad Museum can do it I guess an individual could also set it up.

One way to get 'less expensive' Machine Tools for 'home use'.

Best Regards, and keep a smile on your face,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Robert,
Froggie has a point, the prices of machine equipment are inversely proportional to their size. Quality is still quality, but for the same manufacturer of tools, the smaller one will be the hot commodity vs. the larger example. I will give you one bit of advice, please ignore the "Classic American Iron" crowd (South Bend, Clausing, Atlas, Leblond, etc... Don't eliminate them from your search, but try to avoid the tunnel vision that some have. Those machines were some of the best tools built, however after 60, 70, 80+ years, most of them are in very worn condition and as Froggie brought up, often use obsolete (=expensive/hard to find) tooling, chucks, etc... They deserve credit and respect, but unless you play with machine equipment for a living, many are a cat in a bag for the guy that just wants to play and learn on a small scale. I will definitely recommend that you spend some time on the Practical Machinist website. It will open your eyes to many viewpoints from people that really use their gear, they do not discuss the late model Chinese hobbyist equipment, but they do recognize many of the better quality Aisian imports that were built for production use. If you have the space and can provide 220V to your shed, I will highly recommend that you shop for a larger lathe. The size often can allow you to purchase a higher quality unit for a lower price and ones that use 220V single phase are often shunned by the guy in a garage, 220V 3 phase will require the use of a variable frequency drive (VFD) or a rotary phase converter, but are often the best lathes and can be purchased for very reasonable sums, because they are that "magical" type of electricity. My Graziano SAG 14 lathe is a 3000lb, 9' long monster, that has a 14" swing x 60" bed length, it has a 5hp, 220V, 3ph motor and I run a 10hp rotary phase converter to produce 3phase from a dedicated 50amp, 220V circuit. I wouldn't suggest that you shop for one that big, but I have more lathe than I will ever need and it is a superbly accurate and durable unit that will survive long after I am gone. There is nothing against getting a small starter unit, but the headache starts when you start realizing that it won't accomplish what you want, then you have to hunt for another one, sell the old one, get set up for the new one and hope to avoid the cycle again. A lathe is a must have item, but a milling machine is a delightful convenience item, for those, some of the small units will do everything you would ever need in the gun world. A surface grinder is another convenience item, but even I have given up on the need for one with the limited use it would see in my shop. A shaper is a dying breed, but they are one of the most soothing and hypnotic pieces of equipment, I had one, sold it and still wish I hadn't. Oh well, that's enough of me on a soap box.

Mark

[Green Frog]

Crank, I want to come over to your house and play... do you live anywhere near a major airport? :mrgreen: BTW, a friend of mine at the community college has all three of the little Atlas bench top tools, the 6" lathe, the M-series Horizontal Mill and that cute little matching shaper that everyone hears about but few find. I'd love to play with his machinery but he has it in storage and covered up so I can't get to it. :( You're right, though; a shaper could do things that are just now being duplicated on highly sophisticated modern machines.

Chev William, I can't tell how deeply your tongue is imbedded in your cheek. There are some super deals to be had on overhead shafting and pulleys as well as the antique machinery they run from, but I'm not convinced that anyone but an antique machinery enthusiast would want to devote the time and effort in the 21st Century to set it up and get it operational before being able to do anything useful with it. For sheer bottom end power though, that kind of setup would be hard to beat. I've got a little bench top mill stashed away somewhere that runs on an overhead belt and pulley, but I am hoping to update it to the specs it had by about WW I. I really don't want to go back farther than about WW II for my machinery and have stuck with tools that use 110 AC so I can work in my modestly equipped basement. Any bigger and I would expect to go with 3 phase and a rotary converter as Crank mentions... other motive sources are really for machinery hobbyists rather than hobby gunsmiths, IMHO.

Wow, there has been some real thread drift here, but I guess we've got to do something to mark time before Crank's next installment on his progress. Better get on it, Mark... the natives are getting restless! ;-)

Froggie

[Mk42gunner]

I am taking all the advice in and adding it to the stuff already in my head. I will go to the practical machinist site and look around.

I don't really care were the machinery is manufactured, as long as it is accurate and repeatable. (Its not like I am planning on buying new, unless I win the lottery, and you have to play that to win).

As for the overhead shafting -- I don't think I want to go that route. I live on top of a hill so the waterwheel is out, (literally, no culvert under my driveway, and the rain water runs north and south to different creeks). My neighbor was a BT on a Knox class Frigate back in the 70's though... Hmm, my own personal steam cleaner... Better not.

I think by later this summer I will be in position to start shopping seriously for a lathe, everything else is gravy. The only reason I can see for me to have a shaper is to broach the receiver for a falling block rifle. A five degree vertical sliding wedge breechblock sounds plenty stout for a little imitation boys rifle.

C,mon Crank, as Froggie says the natives are getting restless.

Robert

[Old School Big Bore]

Hey Crank, PM sent.

[leftiye]

Back in abut 1973 there was a machine shop in Oroville Cal. that was belt drive overhead shaft driven. I lived next door for a short while.

[Crank]

Froggie,
I live less than 15 minutes from the San Diego airport, I won't be held responsible if you need therapy after a visit:lol:. Sorry about progress, I'm in a holding pattern until I get to the next stage, reaming the chambers and final barrel work. That is waiting until I coordinate the reamer order and I'm juggling a trip to Phoenix for a show in two weeks.

Robert,
That's the right attitude, look for something that works for you.

OSBB,
PM returned.

leftiye,
There is a sight to behold, watching all that cowhide flopping around driving the equipment.

No further updates, this weekend will be helping a friend fit an extractor in a 44 1/2 and possibly picking up a free Harley (funny since I don't ride).

Mark

[Old School Big Bore]

Dibs on the Harley but only BEFORE you crash it.
Ed

[Crank]

OSBB,
Recently, they conducted research and determined that over 84% of all Harley's are still on the road, the rest made it home:kidding:

Mark

[leftiye]

Best way known to man to get rid of outlaw bikers.

[Crank]

Okay, time to prove that I am just as fallible as the next guy, I did do some work and almost had to start the barrel over. It turned out that Brownells had the .32 cal. 11 degree cutter back in stock, so realizing that I could torque the barrel in and do the forcing cone in place, I decided to cut the crown. I set the barrel up by placing the unthreaded section in the headstock and used the brass pilot to support the muzzle. I had a nice recess for the crown done and couldn't be satisfied, so I went to do one more pass. I was too cocky, put too much side load against the brass with the tool and SNAP! , the pilot sheared, the cutter went south and the barrel got twisted in the jaws of the chuck. I shut down everything and was less than thrilled with what I was looking at. All I could see was a bunch of work thrown in the toilet[smilie=b:. I walked away for a few hours to cool off after chastising myself for an act of stupidity. I sat down with it a few hours later and gave it a hard look. The unthreaded section had metal distorted, the first 2-3 threads were "bent" where the three jaws had pushed against them, there was a ding in the muzzle outside of the crown area, a tiny divot in the crown itself and finally some marks on the radius of the muzzle. The bore was not damaged, so I started to look at what I could do to correct it. I got my hammer and a punch and slowly started to re-shape the displaced metal. I got most of it back where it needed to be, then I took a chisel, ground the edge and "walked" the threads back to where they needed to be. I carefully dressed and blended the reworked areas and made it disappear. I still have a tiny ding at the muzzle and I will leave that as a reminder of my arrogance. I torqued the barrel in and have a barrel cylinder gap at .002, so I can set that after I cut the forcing cone. I give thanks to the man upstairs for letting me off easy on this one. I could have kept my mouth shut about this, but I make mistakes too and I don't want to keep even the bad stuff from this thread. All of you have been great support and motivation, you have my thanks and deserve my honesty keeping track.

Mark

P.S. no Harley yet, the owner has it ready to go, but my friend with a trailer is off racing for the weekend. Looks like next week.

[Old School Big Bore]

I did almost the same thing with a cheap little .22 single shot...the bad thing is, I was building it for one of my boys. I was truing the outside of the receiver and fed too deep at a time and the tool balked when it got to the top port. Luckily I had my hand on the power switch...but that receiver turned out a lot slimmer than I intended once I turned that glitch down. Wish it had been the bottom!
Ed

[taco650]

Mark,

We've all made mistake building stuff. I know I did it many times in my years as auto body tech. Over the years the mistakes became fewer and the ones I did make were more easily fixed. A real head scratcher will come along every now and again but that happens to remind you Murphy is out there. Don't beat yourself up over it, "it" happens. Glad to see a progress report.

Stuart

[Green Frog]

I count my progress based on the mistakes I've overcome. I could show you some scars and tell you some tales... :roll:

Froggie

[Chev. William]

Try to learn from the mistakes of others rather than making repeats my self but I still make problems for myself due to inexperience in some areas. It is ALL good Learning!

My latest self generated problem is a 'botched' single point Threading attempt on a 'almost finished' barrel. Now I need to remove or straighten the the damaged thread start without further damage to the Barrel. Luckily it is not a safety critical thread, it is intended to hold an aluminum Tube 'shroud' on a Tapered Stainless steel barrel so most of the barrel length will be 'free floating'.
If I cannot fix it then the barrel is still usable but not 'full floating'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Green Frog]

It's amazing to me that so many folks say there is little or no interest in the 32 family of revolver cartridges, but whenever one of us starts a thread about building, modifying or even finding a "new" or different member of the family, whether gun, cartridge or whatever, it grows like mushrooms! Here we are at 6 pages on this one already with Crank still doing the last of his barrel and cylinder fitting. No interest, huh? :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Green Frog]

Hey Crank, after your disaster tale I guess it's time to tell one of mine. I spent all afternoon one day grinding a tool to cut the square threads for an antique rifle barrel I wanted to fit. I got about three or so passes made into cutting the thread (would have been about a third of the way through) and thought to myself, "This is working great!" That's the precise instant when Murphy jumped in and the tool grabbed and snapped off. [smilie=b: Fortunately, I just had a stub of bar stock I was threading rather than ruining an expensive barrel blank, but I learned once again that I should never relax and give ol' Murphy any kind of opportunity at all. :???:

Froggie

[taco650]

It's amazing to me that so many folks say there is little or no interest in the 32 family of revolver cartridges, but whenever one of us starts a thread about building, modifying or even finding a "new" or different member of the family, whether gun, cartridge or whatever, it grows like mushrooms! Here we are at 6 pages on this one already with Crank still doing the last of his barrel and cylinder fitting. No interest, huh? :mrgreen:

Froggie

Froggie,

I'm only following this because I like to see what creative minds like Crank come up with and how they made it. I don't want a .32 anything (well, maybe a .32 Special M94 lol) but I find the process VERY COOL. I used to watch the bike building shows just to see what the builder would come up with. The drama the networks added sucked but the bikes were cool. Even so, I wouldn't want to own one. I'm too practical by nature but this project of Cranks (if he'll ever finish it, hint, hint!) will be practical.

[Green Frog]

Taco650, did you ever read the thread about my "Project 616?" That was and is a practical conversion too, and there have been others done virtually identical to it as well as several folks who said they would buy one if it were a factory item. Come on and admit it, you'd really like to have one! ;-) I know there are a lot of lurkers out there, but for all the folks who just think it is neat to watch the project unfold, I bet there are at least a few closet 32-philes out there! You all know who you are! :mrgreen:

Froggie, 32-phile Outer-in-Chief

[Crank]

Froggie,
The problem lies with the extremely small number of people that actually are willing to commit to a factory offering. I love .32 caliber, but I didn't race out and buy a .327 GP-100, since I was waiting for one with a 6" barrel. It was all a case of a day late and a dollar short, by the time I finally realized that a 6" wasn't going to happen, no one had one in stock and even though it was still cataloged, none of the distributors could get one.

taco,
I completely understand your interest from a technical standpoint, I have also followed many threads for stuff I have no desire to own, but enjoy seeing the techniques.

Chev,
There is nothing worse than that feeling when you watch in horror as your work implodes in front of you.

Brownells was fast and I got the cutter yesterday, I cut a minimal forcing cone and faced the end of the barrel for a .003 gap. Not a final value, but I would rather open it up slowly as needed. My DW parts showed up yesterday at the FFL, so I will have them in hand this afternoon. I will most likely place the order for the reamer tonight.

Mark

[Green Frog]

Crank,

I'm thinking a .003" barrel to cylinder gap sounds like a real good place to start. I can't imagine you needing more that about .004" unless you're going to shoot it really dirty. :Fire:

I know what you mean about the 6" barrel. I kinda wanted one that length myownself but when it became obvious that the majority of the stainless S&W barrels in 22 were going to be full lug type, the 4" I was able to find seemed a little more attractive. Now that it's built, I'm glad I've got that extra weight in close, but I probably wouldn't have found it any better (if even as good) if I had gone with the full lug 6" barrel. I think your heavy barrel you are building is going to give you a nice heft... you'd have to have a tapered 6" barrel to get it to balance as well. :smile:

As for buying a Ruger 327, I didn't find out about them until they were apparently in the death throes of production. I saw the stainless Blackhawk 8-shooter and grabbed it cheap... now their prices are through the roof. Another case of the manufacturer sneaking out a roll out of a new gun, then discontinuing it prematurely because "they just weren't selling." Sorta makes you wonder. I'm still trying to warm to the concept of an 8 shot cylinder, and that big hunk of steel that makes a Blackhawk, but I guess I'll hold on to it... I sold my Buckeye Special 32-20/32 H&R combo after owning it only about a year or so and have regretted it almost ever since, so I doubt I'll sell this one without a good SA to replace it. :)

BTW and apropos of nothing, I'm thinking about getting a 32-20 cylinder made up for my "Project 616" and then eliminating a few of the herd. I have a pre-War 32-20 M&P (fixed sights of course) so I could eliminate that one, and if I could make up a 327 FM cylinder for my Navy Arms/ Uberti Cattleman, that would make the Blackhawk surplus as well. I like the idea of a couple of very familiar guns rather than trying to keep up with feeding and caring for a larger herd of cats. :wink:

How is it I get so many great ideas and projects, so little free time and money! :-?

Froggie

[Old School Big Bore]

Froggie - what's your M&P, a six inch?

[leftiye]

So, how about putting a 6" barrel on an SP101? (there's no crane lock in the underlug after all)

[Green Frog]

Froggie - what's your M&P, a six inch?

My current S&W 32-20 M&P is a blued 6" in the SN 75 xxx range. The blue has mostly faded to brown, but no pitting or active rust. Original stocks/grips are appropriate to the rest of the gun... no cracks or chips but a couple of scratches and some flattening of the checkering (esp right panel.) If I get off my lazy butt and add a 32-20 cylinder to Project 616, that will become my go-to 32 cal K-frame revolver, and the M&P will probably get advertised here or on the S&W Forum want-ads. As I hinted in that previous post, I kinda want to consolidate my revolvers now... the herd is sorta getting out of hand. I'd rather have a few revolvers that all get used regularly than a bunch that rarely if ever get shot. I'm seeking a 327 FM cylinder for my Navy Arms/Uberti Cattleman to do the same thing. Then I'll be able to fund another chunk of retirement by selling that Blackhawk 327 FM eight-shooter. ;)

Froggie

[Crank]

Reamer is on order and parts for DW showed up. The problem is, that DW didn't want people like me mixing parts and the barrel is a different thread pitch, so it looks like I will have to machine a barrel for myself. There is no material to cut threads over, Oh well:-(.

[Green Frog]

Crank,

That's really not as big a problem as you think. If your barrel shroud is what you want, you just need to take a blank of the proper bore and turn down to match the profile needed then thread it to match the 357 barrel at the back and the barrel nut at the front, and you're good to go. You might even get lucky and be able to use a blank like the one from your Mod 64 project if you have another one left. :2_high5:

How about the cylinder? Any problem with installing that? As you might be able to ascertain, I've considered the same project, only I was just going to buy a cylinder to rebore/rechamber and plan on using the 357 barrel shroud while making a barrel as described above... that would save on the price of original materials and I would have to remark the barrel shroud with the new caliber anyway, so it wouldn't matter what caliber I started with. In fact, if you could mount the new cylinder on the same, unaltered frame, you would have a reversible conversion... something I always like to consider. :mrgreen:

We need us an old wood stove to sit around sipping and telling tales so we could get these things all thrashed out. I can always solve my friends' problems easier than my own! :drinks:

Froggie

[Crank]

Froggie,
That was why I bought the Green Mountain blank, just in case a barrel wasn't available. I just need to take my time cutting 40TPI. This is an 8" gun, so the other blank won't be long enough. When they said these cylinders were in the white, they weren't kidding, they are as rough as a cob, but the chambers are correct. I bought one in .32 H&R and one in 32-20, they both use the same extractor. I will have to fit the cylinders, since the gas rings are too long and wont let the cylinder close. I will tinker with it when I get a chance. I currently have to organize my garage to get stuff ready for a gun show and make room for the motorcycle. My work area is chaos theory defined and I have to pay the piper every now and then. I will keep notes on the DW to share with you in case there is anything to be warned about.

Mark

[Green Frog]

How cool! :cool: If I am reading you correctly, you are going to have a convertible (dual cylinder) Dan Wesson in 327 FM and 32-20 with an 8" barrel? Small game and tin cans better start hiding right now! I'm getting a little old to hold up a long barrel like that, but in the right hands it should shoot like a small rifle. I believe (based on my experience with the company's products) you will find that Green Mtn barrel to be a fine shooter. :Fire:

Keep posting these progress reports... maybe they will keep me too busy to do something over the top myself. :coffeecom

Your Friend the Frog

[Old School Big Bore]

'maybe they will keep me too busy to do something over the top myself' - No kidding. Just sent a check to Frank Glenn in Phoenix for action jobs, sights, cylinder work etc on two match revolvers. Gotta be content just tappin' the silver stream for a couple of paydays. And doin' the mailbox tap dance waitin' for my guns to get home.

[Crank]

Froggie,
I have had great luck with GM barrels, .256, 38-40 and 45-90, the tough part, is if they have the stuff in stock. Yes, you accurately deduced my plans for world domination with a dual cylindered DW.

Mark

P.S. Tracking shows the reamers showing up Saturday. Yippee!!!

[Crank]

Happy Easter!
Quick update before church. Murphy is having a good laugh right now, the extractor is too thin for the rims, I have cut 4 chambers and my blisters have blisters. I have decided to proceed with finishing the chambers, but I will have to design a fix for the extractor to make it thicker. I did clean up the DW chambers, so that one is done for now.
Till later.

Mark

[Old School Big Bore]

I think it was Nonte that wrote about sweating a shim on the back side of an extractor. Or maybe put jack pins in the holes for the dowels...

[Green Frog]

Froggie,
I have had great luck with GM barrels, .256, 38-40 and 45-90, the tough part, is if they have the stuff in stock. Yes, you accurately deduced my plans for world domination with a dual cylindered DW.

Mark

P.S. Tracking shows the reamers showing up Saturday. Yippee!!!

Crank,

Happy Easter back at you and yours! :mrgreen:

Since you had to buy a whole blank for that 8" barrel, why not look around for another "discarded" shroud or two (caliber not important) in shorter length(s) and make a dual cylinder, multi-barrel pistol pac-pac? The earschplitten loudenboomer snub nose would be worth the price of admission! :guntootsmiley:

[Chev. William]

Crank,

Happy Easter back at you and yours! :mrgreen:

Since you had to buy a whole blank for that 8" barrel, why not look around for another "discarded" shroud or two (caliber not important) in shorter length(s) and make a dual cylinder, multi-barrel pistol pac-pac? The earschplitten loudenboomer snub nose would be worth the price of admission! :guntootsmiley:

Happy Easter to all!

With my already Service Connected Hearing Damage, I would pass on the "earschplitten loudenboomer" Experience in general. 3"-50cal Twin mounts and multi-cylinder Diesel Main Power (in a DER and A MSC) were quite enough in that category. Four Fairbanks-Morris 10 Cylinder main engines at maximum speed were still ear numbing on the DER main deck and Loader on the Aft Mount with no hearing protection allowed. The 8 cylinder Packard Diesels of the MSC were a little easier on the ears but still two on the main shafts and two on Minesweeping Generators going full blast still did NOT do my ears any good. Still, I would not forgo the service experience in spite of it.
You can take my word for it rigging and towing full complement Magnetic, Acustic, and Contact minesweeping equipment at the same time does tax the power of a MSC to near the limits, and we did that for hours on end to properly sweep Cam Rhan Bay (spelling?) before it was made a military harbor. And it did do nasty things to our hearing.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Old School Big Bore]

Crank,

Happy Easter back at you and yours! :mrgreen:

Since you had to buy a whole blank for that 8" barrel, why not look around for another "discarded" shroud or two (caliber not important) in shorter length(s) and make a dual cylinder, multi-barrel pistol pac-pac? The earschplitten loudenboomer snub nose would be worth the price of admission! :guntootsmiley:

I think Apex has some take-off K-frame barrels...

[Green Frog]

OSBB, my comment to Crank was OT... we had drifted into talking about his Dan Wesson, not his Smith & Wesson. You've gotta watch us around here, a lot of ADHD going on. ;)

Froggie

[Chev. William]

This afternoon I completed reforming some R-P .32 S&W Long cases to .32 Long Colt diameters.
This completes the remaining 35 of a lot I bought at auction last year, netting me a batch of 90 cases waiting to have the displaced Brass 'roll' turned off of them before trimming to lengths needed for my testing.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[leftiye]

Ya want off topic? I just got a colt officer's model, and .22 cyl for same. 25 Hornet here we come. (New barrel is just turn, thread, add front sight.) Anybody got a .25 barrel with 1 in 14, or 1 in16 twist?

[Green Frog]

Ya want off topic? I just got a colt officer's model, and .22 cyl for same. 25 Hornet here we come. (New barrel is just turn, thread, add front sight.) Anybody got a .25 barrel with 1 in 14, or 1 in16 twist?

Actually the comments had been more due to "thread drift" into other 32/327 iterations rather than going completely "off topic." If you go backwards (newest to oldest) through this thread, you will see the progression (or was it a digression? :roll: ) Anyway, your 25 Hornet project sounds like a very interesting concept and I would say it deserves its own thread. :coffeecom You'll probably get a lot more hits on it if you start with a catchy title like "Building a 25 Hornet Officer's Model" or something similar to attract the Colt lovers, the 25 lovers, and of course the others of us that like anything odd and different. :wink: My e-friend and co-conspirator Hondo44 is frequently found on both the S&W and Ruger Forums and has been experimenting with a Ruger Single Six in 25-20 WCF. He might be a good guy for you to "chat with" about your project as he has truly "been there, done that." Tell him Froggie sent you!

Froggie

PS Chev William, what are you using those 32 LC cases for? The last time I was fooling around with them was to feed a Winchester low wall I had changed from RF to CF. The chamber is the same for those two cases. :D

[Crank]

Okay, here is the current status. All six chambers are cut and I cut through the extractor to be able to load the chambers and fire it. This means that I will have to poke shells out one at a time, until I am able to re-engineer the extractor. Current thought is to recess a cut underneath the extractor, in the cylinder, to allow a disc to be fit to the underside of the extractor. The simplest way to do it would be to cut the recess, measure the exact depth, and surface grind the disc to proper thickness. Due to the thinness of the original extractor, I would probably solder the disc. Since this is stainless and I don't have to worry about bluing salts, solder should be a permanent bond.
OT for my own thread, I have a 1997 Sportster sitting in the middle of my crowded work space. Looks like I better study up on putting a Harley Back together:D. Oddly, my wife said nice things about it. This makes me somewhat nervous, since she usually doesn't like my vehicular choices.
Don't expect a live fire for a couple of weeks, I will be preoccupied with getting ready to go to a show, but I hope to pull it off shortly afterwards. I took one or two pictures of the cylinder, so I will post them when I get a chance to, but nothing exciting.

Mark

[Chev. William]

PS Chev William, what are you using those 32 LC cases for? The last time I was fooling around with them was to feed a Winchester low wall I had changed from RF to CF. The chamber is the same for those two cases. :D

The .22 Hornets are being reformed to .25 Stevens / .250ALRx diameters for use in 1894/1915 Stevens Favorite Actions.

The .250ALRx series include: .250ALR at roughly 1.0" case length; .250ALS at roughly 1.125" case length; .250ALRM at roughly 1.250" case length; .250ALC at roughly 1.280" case length; .250ALRE at roughly 1.350" to 1.375" case length (about the longest I can consistently get out of the Hornet after reforming). These all share rim dimensions with the .25ACP case.

The .25 Stevens series include some Shorts at roughly .600" case length; Longs at roughly 1.124"-1.125" case length; and possible future experiments at 1.250" to 1.375" case lengths with rim dimensions similar to the .25 Stevens.

The .32 S&W Series (.32 S&W Long, .32 H&R Mag., .327 Fed. Mag.) are/will be reformed to .32 Short/Long Colt / .32 Short, Long, Extra Long diameters for use in either a Stevens 1915 Favorite (smaller range) or a Stevens Model 44 (Longer range of sizes).

The "Family" of cases share case diameters and rim sizes and vary in length from the Extra short, at roughly .398" (or .40") case length; to the Extra Long at roughly 1.150" case length; or stretching to 1.20" case length of the .327 FM.
There is a even longer 'parent case' in the .25-20 Basic Brass, if needed, with less reforming needed but a Lot more trimming involved.

Almost none of these have been revisited with modern powders to see what performance they can be coaxed to yield within the pressure limits of these actions but longer barrels than the Pistol lengths usually encountered.

No, they are not intended to go into the very high pressure ranges of Magnum or +P loads but I am sure there is more accuracy and range performance that has not been investigated, plus the 'costs' involved are Much Less than the 'costs' of Magnum Rifle or Pistol cartridge development. Cost is a major consideration for me in my 'retired' condition, and as a bonus the rifles do not weigh that much compared to the weights of Bench Rest or Magnum Size Long Range Rifles.

Pressure ranges projected are 'in the range' of 10,000psi to 27,000psi; the range from BP to current RF cartridge levels.
BP loads usually are published as 'full case' charges or 'compressed' charges, both of which leave no space between the powder column and the bullet base in order to limit sudden pressure surges from small BP charges burning too quickly in such a space. It is established fact of history that the actions in question did survive such full case or compressed charges being fired in them so similar charges are presumed to still be safe to fire.
Smokeless Powders have greatly improved since these cartridges were last loaded commercially, just look at what has been done in the .22 RF area to see the performance improvements over time.
There are now powders that 'may' be better suited for use in these cartridges and rifle length barrels than those that were available in the 1890-1915 era. This is what I wish to investigate within my financial and physical limits.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Okay, I am back and mostly recovered from my expedition to Phoenix. It was fun, but not terribly exciting, so I am trying to figure out when I could get to the range with the .327. Once I get all 6 storage tubs of brass moved away from the lathe, I will tackle the extractor conundrum.

Mark

[taco650]

Okay, I am back and mostly recovered from my expedition to Phoenix. It was fun, but not terribly exciting, so I am trying to figure out when I could get to the range with the .327. Once I get all 6 storage tubs of brass moved away from the lathe, I will tackle the extractor conundrum.

Mark

6 storage tubs of brass? Oh my... !

[Crank]

Yes, I have over 20K rounds of new brass in exotic calibers and a couple thousand once fired. I will probably list some on the S&S when I get a chance.

[Chev. William]

Exotic Calibers? Does that include the "Obsolete" types?

Good that you are back in Good Spirits.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Green Frog]

C'mon Crank... I'm getting antsy here! How about another progress report? You don't want me to go into withdrawal here, do you? How is the extractor situation progressing?

Froggie

[taco650]

C'mon Crank... I'm getting antsy here! How about another progress report? You don't want me to go into withdrawal here, do you? How is the extractor situation progressing?

Froggie

Me too!!

[stu1ritter]

yeah, here, here ! !
Stu

[Crank]

Okay, you guys owe me $12.00 and a Xanax. The $12.00 is for using a nearby indoor range and the Xanax is because I got stuck next to the guy shooting his 2 1/2" .454 Casull. I swear the target stood a more likely chance of being set on fire rather than struck by a bullet (15 feet), but I digress.
:twisted:IT LIVES!!!!!!! (insert evil laugh here). I fired 48 rounds through it of full power Federal 85gr. soft points. Half the time most of the shells fell right out of the cylinder and the other times a bump on the platform released the rest. Accuracy was debatable, I could barely see my sights and the lighting was great if I was trying to qualify for a night fire course. At 30' my group was about 2-2 1/2", but at 50' I was about the same, with all shots right of center and 4" low at 30' and 8" low at 50'. I was surprised at the amount of heat that built up in the barrel and cylinder. Inspection when I got home showed no failures of any kind, but the carbon build up made me aware of an imperfection in the forcing cone (a groove?). I will worry about that after I address the extractor issue. Overall, I am very pleased with the outcome, but I realize I will want to get out with it under better conditions and shoot it at the outdoor range to get down to business as to actual accuracy. So now you have your update, to provide your "fix" for a little while.

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

Easier to fix a low shooting fixed sight gun than a high shooting one, in my experience. Windage might not be so much fun. Thinking about it the front sight is probably pretty close to right for a 158 at .38 Special velocities, so no doubt it is too tall for an 85 at .327 speeds.

Hopefully you can clean up the forcing cone with out having to set the barrel back a thread, although that would give an excellent chance to adjust the windage. (See there is a silver lining in at least some clouds).

Robert

[taco650]

Shooting at public ranges can be... interesting and not always in a good way. ;-)

Thanks for the update!

[Crank]

Mk42,
Actually it is more of a problem with the fixed sight, since my front sight would need to be less than an 1/8th" tall. I am going to look into adapting some kind of sights that will kill two birds at once, first is improved visibility and second, be able to alter it for load. One thing that came to mind is that recoil is so mild, that I may have a significant change going to a weight in the 115gr. range, due to recoil acting on the gun prior to exit and raising the impact. I have that issue with my .41Mag if I shoot lighter loads and it has been so long I forgot about that quirk. Any way you look at it, I am pleased with the results and now can focus on altering the ejector.

Mark

[taco650]

Mk42,
Actually it is more of a problem with the fixed sight, since my front sight would need to be less than an 1/8th" tall. I am going to look into adapting some kind of sights that will kill two birds at once, first is improved visibility and second, be able to alter it for load. One thing that came to mind is that recoil is so mild, that I may have a significant change going to a weight in the 115gr. range, due to recoil acting on the gun prior to exit and raising the impact. I have that issue with my .41Mag if I shoot lighter loads and it has been so long I forgot about that quirk. Any way you look at it, I am pleased with the results and now can focus on altering the ejector.

Mark

I have read of this bullet weight/impact point phenomenon and experienced it myself with my 44 mag. What is the heaviest you could go in the 327?

[Mk42gunner]

Well you could always install a K frame adjustable rear sight :kidding:. Or fit something like a dovetailed rear sight to raise the point of impact.

I once soldered a set of (considerably modified) tall fixed match grade 1911 sights to the barrel of an 1851 Navy Sherriff's Model that I converted to a Bisley-esqe/ Keith #5 hammer profile. Sounds weird, but it looked okay and shot good groups to point of aim. I wish I had pictures of that gun.

My recommendation is to use a big target backer until you decide on the final primary load, then make sight adjustments.

Robert

[Crank]

I am actually considering a set of Novak style sights dovetailed in.

[Maximumbob54]

Some updated pics now that it's moved from "project" to "project shooter"?

[Crank]

Not that there is much to see, but I will take some pics later this week and get them uploaded. I will probably sit down and make the disc that will provide extraction this weekend if I have some stainless stock hiding in my steel bin. Once I have that completed, then I will proceed to machine the recess in the cylinder and get everything fitted up.

Mark

[Chev. William]

Curious, Please describe the Extractor design of the revolver you are starting with and your planned method of reworking it to fit the new cartridges, for those of us who are not 'hands on' familiar with the revolver you are modifing.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev,
The extractor that is in the 648 cylinder that I used was too thin to leave any remaining material for the rim to sit on and effect extraction. This means that I need a thicker extractor and in order to do that I will graft a disc/washer/coin (you pick a name) to the underside of the extractor. This will require machining a recess below where the extractor currently seats to allow for the increased thickness. I don't know how clear that is for a description, but I will also take some photos of the current configuration and document the alteration so that there will be a bit more clarity.

Mark

[Chev. William]

How is the original 'thin disk' held/actuated? How did it extract the original cartridges if it is so thin? These are among the many questions that the photos adn further descriptions may answer for myself and others.
Thanks for the enlightening Explanations.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev,
There is no thin disk, the extractor is a complex machined component. It was extracting rounded rims of a rimfire, so it was a wedge under the lip of the case.

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

I think there is a picture of it a couple of pages back. It is an odd-shaped little thing, if you are used to looking at K-Frame extractors in .38 Special.

Just one of the many stumbling blocks a person comes up against when he sets out to customize and convert guns from the original chambering. Of course figuring out how to work around those is half the fun and three quarters of the headaches.

Robert

[Green Frog]

Wow, we are now at 9 pages and still counting. Crank, you've created quite a stir! Just to review, I've taken the liberty of bringing back pictures of both of the "donor" extractors on their cylinders so the readers of this thread can compare the starting points. Although some head scratching is necessary for either one, I highly recommend doing as Crank did and using the earlier, more "normal" shaped one, even though it does present a couple of challenges of its own. I'm wondering whether it would be better to have a good welder just weld up the original beveled recess completely to begin with, then recut the extractor grooves from scratch(?) Anyway, here are the pix side by side for comparison.

Froggie

PS got the pix from two different sources... ignore size difference. The larger one with blue background is the 648 I will use next time.

[Chev. William]

Thank you for the two photos, that helps a lot to clear up my understanding about what Crank is dealing with.
Best regards,
Chev. William

[Old School Big Bore]

Dating myself here (as usual) but does anyone know what happened to the company that used to sell blank K extractors? I should've bought a dozen of 'em but you don't expect good stuff to disappear...
Was it Sarco? GunParts? Been digging in old 'zines but haven't found it yet.

[Green Frog]

Hey Crank, I'm about ready for another fix. I've gone through all my active pastimes and now I'm starting to get antsy to see how your project is coming along. I'm beginning to start getting a little stirring toward the idea of making Project 616 into a two caliber gun by making a cylinder for 32-20. Anyway, what's happening out there on the Left Coast??

Froggie

[leftiye]

In case anyone is interested in something like this on a Colt officer's Model frame- Numrich has a few .22LR cylinders for the Officer's model. Part #201310 $143.75. Think 25 Hornet in my case (- already gots a model 16 - kinda - .327)!

[Stonecrusher]

Hey Crank, I'm about ready for another fix. . .I'm starting to get antsy to see how your project is coming along.


Same for me. I have hives developing in anticipation! Kind of like a child seeing their Christmas present under the tree every day but not being allowed to open it until February.

Have mercy!

[Crank]

Sorry guys, nothing to report. I haven't had any time to play in the garage for the past couple of weeks, between the heat wave last week and an unending list of honey-do's, I haven't done squat. I have the house to myself this weekend and I plan on getting some ammo (.219 Zipper and .20 Tac) loaded up for a chance to shoot a couple of my toys that haven't been tried out and maybe even load up some ammo for the .25ACP rifle.

leftiye,
Funny that you mention that, I picked up an Official Police in .22LR and the thought crossed my mind. The problem is that the Officer's Models are not cheap, so that is a bit of a drag, however, the barrel is uncomplicated to machine from scratch since it doesn't have an underlug. The problem is that if you find an affordable one, you can only pray that the timing is not a problem. I love Colts, but when they go out of timing, parts are getting very hard to locate and very few gunsmiths still know how to get the timing right. I learned how to do it years ago, but I had best gotten it for a screaming deal to justify the work on any example that has worn/blown timing.

I will try to shoehorn some time this weekend to make a little headway.

Mark

[Chev. William]

Add to the Giggles; I now have 11 .32 Extra Short CF cases that need reaming to allow for bullet seating and they are "Cute little Buggers" that took using a Lyman Universal Case Trimmer with a power Trimmer conversion shaft, the Adjusting collar reversed on the shaft, and shortening the nose of the pilot I used. The thing about the Shaft is that it allows the collar to overhang the end of the polished portion of the shaft while the hand operated shaft has the crank in the way.
Because the cutter heads are screwed into the end, it is easy to change shafts.

Calculated Power Charges and Performance using a 31-090A 90 grain bullet and Titegroup powder in encouraging, 600 to 700fps out of a 24" barrel with 91psi or less at the muzzle making for a Quiet load that is useful for Short Range Target, Varmint, and plinking.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[leftiye]

leftiye,
Funny that you mention that, I picked up an Official Police in .22LR and the thought crossed my mind. The problem is that the Officer's Models are not cheap, so that is a bit of a drag, however, the barrel is uncomplicated to machine from scratch since it doesn't have an underlug. The problem is that if you find an affordable one, you can only pray that the timing is not a problem. I love Colts, but when they go out of timing, parts are getting very hard to locate and very few gunsmiths still know how to get the timing right. I learned how to do it years ago, but I had best gotten it for a screaming deal to justify the work on any example that has worn/blown timing. Mark

I have worked on some Police Positive Specials, and Official police models, and a real buggered up colt is lossa fun! But you can find ossifer's modelos on Gunbroker without busting the piggy, and I haven't seen any bad ones. Actually unless the seller says it's faulty, just send it back as misrepresented. My biggest problem so far has related to shortening the top of the hand enough to allow rotation at all (cyl has to unlock before it can turn), and shortening the ledge on the hand too much (part that locks cyl in place to fire), and having it not make it to the locking detents. If one can get the transfer lever to unlock the cyl quickly is the key, I think. But if you buy one the seller says cycles correctly and locks up tight, then as long as the lug ends up in the detent, it's just about good. A little play in the lockup isn't bad, gun actually works better.

[Chev. William]

Crank,
Any progress on this project?
Chev. William

[Crank]

No progress, but not forgotten. I did however, locate and purchased, a GP-100 in .327 which is cooling off in gun jail. It won't invalidate this one, just keep it company.

Mark

[Green Frog]

I took ol' 616 out today and shot it at 25 yds using both 32 S&W Long "cat sneeze" loads and modest 327 loads (125 gr NOE LSWC over middle range loads of H-108) and continue to amaze myself with it. Life is good! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Crank]

Hee-Hee! I have the GP-100 safely in my clutches. I need to find a smaller grip than that Hogue they come with. Don't worry, like I said, I am not shelving the S&W I am still trying to figure out what to use as a donor plate under the extractor and the best means of joining the two. I always try to figure out a way to keep my set-up time to a minimum and avoid making 10lbs of chips for a 2oz. part. On the lighter side, when I cleaned up my work area I found an antique 1885 Low Wall action that had gone missing and I am thinking a .32 Long could be a lot of fun. If it was a High Wall, I would definitely go with a matching .327 rifle. Not much else, just getting ready for more travel with work.

Mark

Mark

[stu1ritter]

Froggie, do you bother loading the H&R at all or just go directly to the 327?
Stu

[Green Frog]

Froggie, do you bother loading the H&R at all or just go directly to the 327?
Stu

I only have about 100-150 rounds of 32 H&R brass, so I don't go out of my way to load this caliber since I have at least 500-750 rounds of 32 S&W and over 1000 rounds of 327, most virgin brass from Starline. About the only reason I see to use the H&R brass is if I decide I want to load an extra long (say, 140 gr+) and COAL becomes an issue.

Froggie

[Old School Big Bore]

Wish I could clean MY bench and find a low wall...(sigh)...

[Crank]

OSBB,
Trust me, you may dream of it, but you REALLY don't want a work area like mine. Unless you moonlight as an archaeologist.:veryconfu

Mark

[Green Frog]

"Organized people never make the exciting discoveries I do." Anon.

This applies to my bench/life as well, Crank!

[taco650]

Wish I could clean MY bench and find a low wall...(sigh)...

I know your pain!

[Crank]

Okay, I just came back from the steel supply and I have a round billet of 304L that will be whittled on for the extractor. No promises, but I will see what kind of progress I can make today. I have been running all of the scenarios as to the best way to make this, so wish me luck.

Mark

[Crank]

Groan! I am exhausted, but it is done. Here is how it went. I machined a 2" disc to a thickness of 0.80" and drilled a .250" hole in the center. I silver brazed that disc to the extractor and then trued the disc to make sure everything was straight and true. I then drilled the pilot holes for each chamber in the new extractor, but I kept them undersize to allow for individual fitting. I machined the cylinder where the extractor sits to the thickness of the modified extractor. I enlarged the diameter to eliminate the irregular shapes that the factory uses and bring everything to a nice even circle. Then I reduced the diameter of the extractor until it would fit in the new recess. I tediously enlarged the extractor for one chamber to act as a guide for all of the rest by using an empty case to keep play from being an issue. I cut/filed/polished the other five chambers and now 6 factory rounds drop into the chambers. The new extractor looks dirty in the pictures, that is because of the brazing, I will see if I can find a bead blaster to clean it up eventually. This is the short version of about six hours worth of work.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140628_170415_zps7bc478d0.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140628_170415_zps7bc478d0.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140628_170507_zps558b6e1f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140628_170507_zps558b6e1f.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140628_170435_zps861db87b.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140628_170435_zps861db87b.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140628_170524_zpsf4f5d8c9.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140628_170524_zpsf4f5d8c9.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/327/20140628_171213_zps42292dc4.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/327/20140628_171213_zps42292dc4.jpg.html)

Obviously I was lucky to have my spare cylinder to illustrate the before and after. I also pulled the barrel and deepened the forcing cone, but the cutter I bought is bad and leaves a groove, so I had to carefully polish out the tool-mark and smooth the forcing cone area by hand. It should be good to go.
That's all folks!

Mark

[Mk42gunner]

Looks like it should work, I can hardly wait for the range report....

Robert

[Stonecrusher]

Looks great to me! Been waiting to see how this turned out, and it seems to have turned out well. I wonder if when the spacer was made for the extractor you could have counterbored the extractor side for the diameter of existing extractor and thereby filled the gap between the extractor and the recess in the cylinder. It would have had a seamless look.

You have done an excellent job. I think I might try my hand at it. I have an older Model 66 with a blown cylinder and the topstrap has about a .030" bow in it. I think it can be easily straightened and would make a fine .32 Mag. Barrel is 6" so it would require a bit more work but would have adjustable sights.

Thank you for your inspiration!

[taco650]

Kewl! Nice you see this project finally wrapping up. Keep up the good work!

[Chev. William]

Crank,
RE: your Shop Cleanup report; have you found your Powder List yet?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev,
I thought I listed what I had a while back. I haven't found any other powders, so I am very limited.

Stonecrusher,
Just as a precaution, unless you are lucky enough to have access to Magna-flux testing, there is an old school trick they taught us in gunsmithing school. Strip all of the parts you can, especially the rear sight assembly, off of the frame. Get a large enough container to immerse the frame and soak it in fresh gasoline for 15-20 minutes. With some paper towels at hand and a good magnifier, pull the part out and quickly wipe all of the gasoline off. Watch for any lines of wetness in the window of the frame. The gasoline will penetrate any cracks and then as it dries it will crawl out and show itself. It's the poor man's version, but it works. That way you can rest easy that the frame is not compromised. Straightening the top strap will take a steady hand and a prudent use of force, but it should not be too difficult. I will recommend that you spring for the cylinder from Bowen, to save a lot of extra work. I would not hesitate if I were to do it again, since it would have saved quite a few hours and there were enough times that the risk of ruining what I had would have scrapped the cylinder I used. If you are comfortable with your skill level and you don't mind the tedium, by all means, follow what I have documented. Have fun with it, you will have something the other kids won't have.

Thanks to all for the compliments.

Mark

[Chev. William]

This afternoon I completed reforming some R-P .32 S&W Long cases to .32 Long Colt diameters.
This completes the remaining 35 of a lot I bought at auction last year, netting me a batch of 90 cases waiting to have the displaced Brass 'roll' turned off of them before trimming to lengths needed for my testing.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 2014JUN30: This lot of 90 cases had been set aside waiting for suitable "Lathe Time" are now in the process of being run through my Sizing die again, but this time in the "RC" press, to coin the rim thinner and cut down on the "Lathe Time" needed to finish them. Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Chev,
I thought I listed what I had a while back. I haven't found any other powders, so I am very limited.

Mark

Mark,
If you did, I missed it so could you please save me reading through all 10 pages of posts and restate your list of available powders that you would like me to run QL checks upon?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev,
When, I referred to your data, you had already covered everything I have.
Thanks

Mark

[Chev. William]

OK. then I guess you are set for the .25ACP Rifle loads. Please keep us posted on future results.

Also, a couple of Curiosity questions:
What is the Largest Size Revolver Frame in current production suitable for 'wildcat modifications'?
How many .25 Stevens Diameter Cartridges may be fitted into a cylinder with enough safety margins?
How many .32 Extra Long Cartridges may be fitted into a cylinder with enough safety margins?

What got me thinking was seeing Rugar 8 and 10 Cartridge .22 Revolvers at my Local Gun Shop.
Best Regards,
Chev. William.

[taco650]

OK. then I guess you are set for the .25ACP Rifle loads. Please keep us posted on future results.

Also, a couple of Curiosity questions:
What is the Largest Size Revolver Frame in current production suitable for 'wildcat modifications'?
How many .25 Stevens Diameter Cartridges may be fitted into a cylinder with enough safety margins?
How many .32 Extra Long Cartridges may be fitted into a cylinder with enough safety margins?

What got me thinking was seeing Rugar 8 and 10 Cartridge .22 Revolvers at my Local Gun Shop.
Best Regards,
Chev. William.

S&W put 7 .357's in the L frame... is that bigger than you were thinking?

[Chev. William]

No, I was wondering if there was one that could be modified to hold 10 rounds of .32 Extra Long size cartridges in CF configuration and at least a 6" barrel.
Another thought was for 10 rounds of ".250ALRM" in a longer Barrel, like a 'Buntline' design.

Just some 'Wild Thoughts' wiht no funds to pursue them.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Maximumbob54]

I'm actually getting a little irate that S&W didn't make this gun. They wanted to sell us an over priced J frame (I don't care how nice it was, it isn't what the market or myself wanted) and I bet this configuration maybe in a 2", 3", and 4" would have sold. Throw in an adjustable sight version and I bet that would have sold too.

[Green Frog]

If you go back in the thread, Maximumbob54, you will find a link to my version of the adjustable sighted gun you are describing, "Project 616." Just like Crank's fixed sight version, I had a 22 cal cylinder rebored to 327, but unlike his sleeved barrel, mine uses a rebored 617 barrel (4") with the heavy under lug. Everyone who sees it is impressed, but there would probably not be a huge market for it since folks who want classic revolvers seem less interested in new-made Smiths with MIM parts and Internal Locks. I guess it's just a sign of the times. :|

Froggie

[taco650]

No, I was wondering if there was one that could be modified to hold 10 rounds of .32 Extra Long size cartridges in CF configuration and at least a 6" barrel.
Another thought was for 10 rounds of ".250ALRM" in a longer Barrel, like a 'Buntline' design.

Just some 'Wild Thoughts' wiht no funds to pursue them.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

That's why I proposed the L frame. If it can handle 7 357's, it could more of rounds of a smaller caliber couldn't it? Might take a little reworking of the action timing.

[Green Frog]

That's why I proposed the L frame. If it can handle 7 357's, it could more of rounds of a smaller caliber couldn't it? Might take a little reworking of the action timing.

Just as an FYI, the Blackhawk 327 FM is an 8-shooter, and it uses a standard diameter Ruger Blackhawk™ cylinder. I'm guessing an L-frame cylinder could easily take the same treatment, but I really like the K-frame for the 32 and I'm not sure I would hold out for a purpose made cylinder (as opposed to the standard 6 holes drilled) just for one more round. If you can't get the job done with 6 shots, one more probably won't help. For competition, a K-32 speed loader from Safariland would be nice.

Froggie

[Maximumbob54]

Are you kidding? I would love a 616. And I would think a seven shot .327 K frame cylinder would work for the same reason the L's seven shot .357 works because the stop notches are milled between the cylinders instead of over them creating a weak spot on each chamber.

[Crank]

Maximumbob,
Froggie has a valid point, many people have developed a distrust of and/or a negative mindset towards many of S&W's current crop of revolvers. Add to that, the painfully high prices and you have seriously hampered the sale-ability of a number of these offerings. I personally, was waiting for Ruger to release the GP-100 in a 6", instead they killed the 4" and left me with no choice. Add to that, the fact that many people swear they would buy such and such offering, but when it is, they hesitate to wait for reviews or for the price to settle down. The simple fact is, if it isn't out there, the only option is spend the money to build what the manufacturers fail to offer. I happened to be blessed with the equipment and enough knowledge to be dangerous to save a few bucks at face value for a project such as this, but as I was reminded, my labor is not being charged but it isn't free. Add to that, the financial investment in my equipment and I could have paid any number of high end pistol-smiths to build me a lot of guns and still have money in the bank. I do this stuff because I love it and I enjoy the development process. I am guilty of having a number of projects that are not "finished", but they are functional and simply need to have the window dressing added to make them complete.

Mark

[Maximumbob54]

Well I know I swore I would buy a .45 Colt 4" Redhawk if they brought them back and I'm nagging and harassing my LGS to hurry up and find one.

And when I see one of the new Single Sixes in .327 for sale I will have one of those as well.

[Crank]

Hee-Hee!:bigsmyl2: Already blew up my buddy's phone and e-mail telling him to get my name on the list from Lipsey's for a 7 1/2". I am headed towards oblivion and will have way too many .327's by the time I get there. Heck, I still need to shoot the GP-100 and test the extractor mod on the 64-7, then I need to start threading the barrel for my Dan Wesson. My friends say that I have a compulsive (or was that repulsive?) personality, when I develop an interest in something I tend to go a wee bit overboard. Once, I was on an XP-100 kick and wound up with three at one gun show, now I have five of the buggers. By the way, I wasn't trying to lump you in with the masses when I said that a lot of people talk about what they would buy and then get wishy-washy, so no offense was intended. The sad fact is that the number of people that actually have a sincere interest in many great concepts is too small for the bean counters to care about. It doesn't invalidate the need for a gun/caliber offering, but face it, they are in business to make money. If I had my way, I would be placing my order for a Webley-Fosbery or a Mateba, but alas they are gone and I won't pay what they want for one of them now. I just like uncommon stuff. However, as the saying goes, sometimes you are better off not meeting your heroes. Two guns that I lusted after in my youth were the Steyr GB and the original Automag, I have since owned both. The Steyr was unspectacular for accuracy and got dangerously hot during rapid fire drills and the Automag was a high strung exotic that demanded meticulous upkeep and loading it to the ragged edge of sanity to keep it cycling. Both have sinced passed out of my hands. If I spot a Redhawk in LC, I will let you know.

Mark

[Chev. William]

7 each of .327 Fed. Mag. would also mean 7 round of .32 Extra Long (CF Replacements) but with a smaller diameter Chamber and therefore thicker walls.

Rebuilding for .250ALRM or .250ALRx sizes and lengths (.276" diameter/.302" Rim and up to 1.380" case length) might allow for an 8 shot but I would guess 9 or 10 chambers would start to thin the walls a bit to much. Just guessing as I do not know the Cylinder Diameter of the original let alone the Chambering radius used to layout the Chamber circle.

If you know the pertinent dimensions pleas post them and I will try to see i fthey would layout for suitable arrangements. I would also presume that the minimum wall thicknesses between .327 FM chambers and the minimum thickness for chamber to cylinder exterior would also be safe fo reither .250 or .32 cartridges.

Would a larger frame one, originally set up for .45 Long Colt allow more of a smaller diameter cartridge, possibly with the addition of offset barrel of smaller Bore/Groove dimensions, allow more rounds in the Cylinder, I would think so, but do not Know so.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Green Frog]

While you're worrying about the chamber wall thickness of a K-frame 32/327, remember that this is the same cylinder that has been used with six 38 caliber holes for well over 100 years. Cylinder strength should not be a problem! :brokenima

Froggie

[Chev. William]

While you're worrying about the chamber wall thickness of a K-frame 32/327, remember that this is the same cylinder that has been used with six 38 caliber holes for well over 100 years. Cylinder strength should not be a problem! :brokenima

Froggie

I thought we were discussing "L" and "N" size frames, the "K" is a different size form these is it not?
Best Regards,
Chev. william

[Green Frog]

I thought we were discussing "L" and "N" size frames, the "K" is a different size form these is it not?
Best Regards,
Chev. william

Sorry, CW... I didn't realize we had drifted so far away from the original idea of the thread (lo these 10+ pages ago) when we were talking about making a stainless K-framed 327 Fed Mag. Now that I see you are on 25 cal cartridges, I would say that if you want to go for the old War Between the States concept of "load it on Sunday and shoot all week" you could go with a custom N-frame cylinder and bore at least 10 and probably 12 chambers if you want a 25 WCF or something similar. On the other hand, if you are going with something like the old German 6.5 X 27 (basically a 38 Spl necked down to 25 cal) I would guess you could make an 8 shot N-frame for that, maybe one or even two more. Be aware that this is all estimation off the top of my head, but if you are really interested it should be easy to calculate. On the other hand, making that cylinder (and extractor star) from scratch would be a J-O-B! :shock: Alternatively, you could use an L-frame 686+ and sleeve or bush the chambers and have a 7-shooter with the 25(?)

Froggie

[Mk42gunner]

Didn't S&W make a few 8 shot .357's on the N-Frame within the last few years?

You might be able to safely make a ten shot .25 out of one. Although having owned a Model 28, I think the size of the cartridge vs. the size of the gun would be getting well past the ridiculous stage by then. Kind of like a large ring 98 Mauser in .22LR.


Speaking of ridiculous, does anybody else remember the article in Guns and Ammo in the late seventies about the top break Model 29 in three calibers? .22 LR, .357 Magnum, and 3" .410 in the center IIRC.

Robert

[Crank]

Froggie nailed it, THREAD DRIFT!

[Chev. William]

OK, I think I got the Answers I needed to my Curiosity Questions on Cylinder sizes and Frame sizes, so now back to the basic thread subject:
Is anyone else interested in the current Amazon.com listing of packages of ".327 Federal Magnum Empty Brass"?

"327 Federal Magnum Starline Brass (100 New Cases)
by Starline Brass (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_sporting-goods?ie=UTF8&field-brandtextbin=Starline+Brass&node=3375251)

1 customer review (http://www.amazon.com/Federal-Magnum-Starline-Brass-Cases/product-reviews/B00JJB92LO/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1)




Price:
$33.98 + $3.99 shipping





Only 14 left in stock.
Ships from and sold by The Brass Man (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/seller/at-a-glance.html?ie=UTF8&seller=AXQ3UASLHHMRS).









Starline Brass is known for it's quality and consistency.
Used by many of the top competitive shooters.
Uniform case wall thickness.
Tight wall concentricity.
This is not primed or loaded ammunition."



I bought two lots for a total of 200 cases to use as parent brass for my .32 Long/.32 Long Colt Experiments as it is cheaper than buying .25-20SS basic Brass from Buffalo arms, although more work to reform down to the diameters I need.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Green Frog]

For those wondering about the quality of this brass, I bought 1000 rounds of it in connection with Project 616 and am more than satisfied with the quality. It seems to be consistent and although mine came bulk packed, it arrived in good shape and didn't even have (the expected) out-of-round dinged mouths. This brass gets Five Froggie Stars! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[I'll Make Mine]

If you're after maximum capacity in a revolver, choose a caliber that will let you get 8-10 rounds (say, .25 ACP or 5.5 mm Velo Dog -- or a wildcat hybrid, like a straight-walled, reduced rim .25-20) into a standard frame cylinder -- and then bore another ring of chambers on a smaller ring diameter. Set up the ratchet and bolt so the cylinder advances "half a step" on each cycle, work out a rocking firing pin (one pin tip will hit the cylinder between chambers while the other fires the round that's aligned) and put a double barrel on. This has been done commercially, long ago -- in fact, I've seen photos of an example that used half as many chambers on the inner ring to get (as I recall) fifteen shots. Can't say how they managed the ratchet and bolt for that one (the outer ring was even spaced), but it apparently worked.

[Chev. William]

I vaguely remember reading about a Revolver form the "civil War" era that was a 'nine shot, with a Shotgun chamber in cylinder center line surrounded by Pistol Cartridge chambers and it had a 'double barrel', one above the other. I do not remember the Maker's name nor its area of origin though.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Green Frog]

You're probably thinking of the LeMat revolver. There is or was a reproduction made in Italy and marketed by Navy Arms Co.

Froggie

[Maximumbob54]

I would think if they can shoe horn 7 .357's into the L frame and have such thin walls but with the notches cut between the chambers then a K frame .327 seven shot shouldn't be much of a stretch.

[taco650]

I would think if they can shoe horn 7 .357's into the L frame and have such thin walls but with the notches cut between the chambers then a K frame .327 seven shot shouldn't be much of a stretch.

My point exactly! I'm sure that someone who has the creativity, skills and equipment like Crank should be able to pull it off easily. ;)

[Crank]

Yes, I have been laying low on the forum. I am a bit preoccupied learning the intricacies of the 57MM MK110 cannon, so I haven't spent much time on the computer. Not the best, but a few pictures to get a taste of this place.

Aft view,
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140709_144344_zps5c7a2213.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140709_144344_zps5c7a2213.jpg.html)

Side view,
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140709_144239_zps4ceebb3a.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140709_144239_zps4ceebb3a.jpg.html)

My pet, which will soon be gone.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140709_144301_zpscda5f0c0.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140709_144301_zpscda5f0c0.jpg.html)

The mighty 16"/50cal., enough to bring a tear to your eye.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140709_144319_zps14c0519f.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140709_144319_zps14c0519f.jpg.html)

There is much more to see, but I will take more pictures as I get time.

Mark

[War Eagle]

Is that 57mm one of the BOFORs cannons?

If you explained this already I apologize.

[Crank]

War Eagle,
You are correct, that is the Bofors gun, we use it on the Coast Guard cutters and the Littoral Combat Ships (LCS). I am quickly warming up to this design, one of the other students and myself removed the breechblock in about 15 minutes taking our time. Considering it takes about 8 hours to get a breechblock out of a 76MM on a good day, I really like this design. It will fire at the rate of 220rds per minute and has a programmable projectile that can perform a number of functions. If things work out, I may get to see one fired during my last week of class. You just have to love things that go BOOM!

Mark

[War Eagle]

Haha...Which LCS are you referring to? The Marinette built ships or the Independence/Coronado?

[Green Frog]

Now that's what I call a bench rest gun... for a very large bench! I'm guessing that casting for that bad boy is a bit of a challenge, though. You probably need a really large pot and dipper, and handling the mould is probably a strain as well. ;)

Froggie

[Crank]

The Little Crappy Ships, er um, I mean Littoral Combat Ships are both designs and all of them are stationed in San Diego. As for casting, you will spend a considerable amount of time melting enough lead for a pour. I am headed to a gun show in Hampton Roads tomorrow, so I wonder what will catch my eye. It is amazing how bad the traffic is here, considering people accuse Cali of having such horrible traffic, I will take San Diego traffic any day. However, after visiting one of the local stores, I left depressed knowing if I lived in America, I would have about 6 suppressors for my collection. I was amazed at the increased following for NFA firearms.

Mark

[War Eagle]

I happened to work on the Independence and Coronado. Before and after launch of the Independence, a brief period before launch on the Coronado. I have been working on the LCS program for about 8 years now which is where I recognized the cannon...I tend to not think of the ships as crappy.

[Chev. William]

IF you are thinkin gof the 16"x50cal one, the projectiles, I believe ran from a little over 1600lbs to over 2500lbs depending on type, Crank can chime in with the actual values.

I got "Close up and personal" with dual enclosed 3"x50 mount on the USS NEWELL (DER322) in 1961-1962 came away with "healthy Respect" and a medical record entry that said I was refused requested hearing protection by both my division Officer and the Commanding Officer. So now I have Service Connected Bilateral Hearing Loss and Constant Tinnitus in both ears.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
Best Regards

[Green Frog]

Just think of the tinnitus as crickets... Jiminy Cricket will keep you behaving the way you should! ;) My late dear friend and mentor, Steve Eagler was a warrant officer pilot on all manner of Naval aircraft and a machinist/gunsmith as well as a shooter with the Navy pistol team. He said he finally realized the degree of his tinnitus one day in the shop when he was bothered by all the crickets chirping, then he looked outside and saw the ground was deeply covered in snow. :shock: Yep, I hear 'em too... I taught high school for 30 years! :veryconfu

Froggie

[Crank]

War Eagle,
The inference to "crappy" is the concept, not the execution. They are trying to build a Swiss Army knife, something that can perform many functions, but none of them well. So if you are involved in the construction, I have no fault with your end.

Chev,
Huh, What did you say? Your nodes are virginal? I hear some amazing things, until I find out what was actually said.

Mark

[taco650]

War Eagle,
The inference to "crappy" is the concept, not the execution. They are trying to build a Swiss Army knife, something that can perform many functions, but none of them well. So if you are involved in the construction, I have no fault with your end.

Mark

Don't you know, its called multitasking combined with budget cuts... why build three ships that each do something different but very well when you can build one that can do all but only half-a$$ed???

[Chev. William]

Chev,
Huh, What did you say? Your nodes are virginal? I hear some amazing things, until I find out what was actually said.

Mark

What I was referring to was that my Battle Station duty assignment was Loader.
Shuffling 3"-50 'Rounds' to the mechanism while the twin mount is Firing and then noting the Muzzle Blast remove the Welded Cover from a Ventilation Fan when the pointer got us too close to the ship's Structure.
First Firing exercise caused pain and temporary ringing in both ears, so I requested hearing protection, first form the Gun Captain, then my Division Officer, then From Medical, who called the CO and Got the order to refuse the request, so I stood there while the Medical Officer placed the Note in my Medical Record and dated and signed the entry. Several more Firing Exercises and the tinnitus was continuous. I found out about the added Hearing Acuity Loss about two years later when my next Ship Division Officer ordered a Full Hearing Evaluation as I complained I could not understand either spoken orders over a Voice Tube nor over Sound Powdered Phones.
It has since gotten worse and the VA now provides dual Hearing Aids.

The Vent Fan was covered with Canvas after the cover departed until we got back into Pearl Harbor, then the Shipyard made and installed a new Cover for the fan, and the Gunners mates painted some new caution marks on the Traverse Indicators, trying to avoid a repeat in Training Exercises.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Went to a gun show, didn't find anything and walked out empty handed. However, a gun shop on the way back from the show had just taken in a .32 H&R Ruger Bisley with a 6 1/2" and the store is willing to ship it! Yippee!! Definitely a good day.

Mark

[taco650]

Went to a gun show, didn't find anything and walked out empty handed. However, a gun shop on the way back from the show had just taken in a .32 H&R Ruger Bisley with a 6 1/2" and the store is willing to ship it! Yippee!! Definitely a good day.

Mark

Wonder what this one will end up as???

[Crank]

Don't worry, I will leave this one alone. I say that with the determination and honesty of our country's political leadership.:roll::roll:

Mark

[Alferd Packer]

Get a long barrelled .30 carbine Blackhawk and have someone build/fit an extra cylinder for it in .327 with .30 cal forcing cones.
You can shoot any .32 pistol bullet sized to.309
I shoot a .32/20 Buckeye Ruger that has the extra .32 H&R cyl fitted.I could probably ream the H&R cyl out to .327 And shoot the .32 acp, .32 S8W short and Long and the H&R and the .327 all from that one cylinder.
Also thought about a .30 carbine cylinder fitted, but reloading can encompass that.
The Buckeye is a .357 Blackhawk full size frame with .32 cylinders and barrel.
I can even shoot 210 gr .308 cast bullets like a mini 300 blackout Whisper using the .32 S&W long cases.

[Crank]

Already have an OM .30 Carbine, but I think I am going to have enough bases covered with all of the stuff I have, or will be waiting for (Single-7). I am obsessing a wee bit too much, but I'm okay with that.:smile:

Mark

[Chev. William]

At least you still have Earned Income to support your 'Hobbies' with Discretionary Spending Funds available.
You might consider adding a "#8 Cap Screw Combined Pilot Drill and Counter bore" to your tooling, I find it makes converting CF Brass to use .22 Cal Blanks Much Easier.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[taco650]

Which has more power, the .327 Federal or 30 Carbine?

[Bullwolf]

Which has more power, the .327 Federal or 30 Carbine?

That's a good question, here's some additional food for thought.

.30 Carbine
38,500-40,000 psi
Empty Case Capacity 19-20 grains of water
Case length 1.280-1.290
Loaded cartridge OAL 1.68

327 Federal
45,000 psi
Empty Case Capacity 17 grains of water
Case length of 1.200
Loaded cartridge OAL 1.47


Technically the 327 Federal max PSI is higher. The .30 carbine has a little more room for powder when it comes to case capacity.

From a hand loading perspective it could depend on the strength of the specific platform, barrel length, and the maximum loaded cartridge length you are able to seat a boolit at.

It's interesting to look at it this way, and I am curious as to what others opinions will be on the subject.


- Bullwolf

[Chev. William]

Hmmm. Ammoguide lists the .30 Carbine as having 21.6gr H2O capacity to the mouth and .327 FM as having 19.3gr H2O capacity.
30 Carbine uses a 110gr nominal projectile with nominal 1990fps and 967 ft-lbs at the Muzzle.
327FM uses a 100gr nominal projectile with nominal 1400fps and 435ft-lbs at the muzzle.

30 Carbine loads are listed for 85gr at 2458fps and 1140ft-lbs to 130gr at 1768fps and 902ft-lbs.

327 FM loads are listed for 71gr at 1664fps and 436ft-lbs to 115gr at 1310fps and 438ft-lsbs.

Now I know the 30 Carbine is usually fired out of a 20 inch barrel and the .327 FM is fires out of a 6 inch barrel so the numbers are loaded in favor of the Carbine round.

Does anyone have numbers for a .327 fired from a 20 inch Barrel?
or for both cartridges fired from a 24 inch barrel?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Green Frog]

CW,

Your 4th paragraph says what needs to be said as ground rules. The 30 carbine was designed around a semi-automatic carbine platform while the 327 FM was designed for a revolver with revolver length barrels. Interesting (and loud) things happen when the carbine round is chambered in the Ruger BH revolver, and I would postulate that an increased level of performance would result from putting the 327 in a longer barrel with no cylinder gap to allow energy loss. Since the carbine round, must necessarily operate the semi-auto action of its intended platform, it is routinely loaded to operate within a fairly narrow window of performance. Since the 327 "home platform" is typically a revolver, the limits "go out the window" especially at the lower end for target use but also at the top, so long as the revolver is sufficiently strong (read "Ruger Blackhawk" or "K-frame S&W.")

With hand loading, the M-1 Carbine round has a lot of increased potential in a revolver, but I'm not sure it will really exceed that of the FM at the top end. I'm wondering whether anyone has compared factory loaded M-1 and 327 over the chronograph in Blackhawks with similar length barrels? That would be pretty simple to test and would give a good starting point for comparison. Shooting both at a ballistic pendulum would also be pretty interesting.

Just as a side note, my 327 FM hand loads (when loaded to mid- or upper level performance) tend to contain bullets in the 115-125 grain range. This is going to change the effect on the end point of the trajectory somewhat. Handloaded M-1 rounds in a revolver can be similarly tweaked, but I haven't done so (no M-1 BH) and don't know how well that would work. I've thought about putting together a 327 FM high wall Winchester... that would show what the absolute potential of the round would be! ;)

Regards,
Froggie

[taco650]

The only reason I brought up the 30 carbine is I think it would be fairly simple to rework a Ruger BH in that caliber to 327 Federal and get a little fatter projectile.

[Chev. William]

OFF Subject, but I am happy to report:
Spent Yesterday and this morning working to get my "PhotoBucket" account back and running again, in the process apparently lost the previously used links to the posted photos.

But I did get a new photo of my .25 Stevens RF/CF case forming project uploaded and titled so here is the link:
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/25%20Stevens%20Family%20Cartridges%20Development/2014040713_Pictures003crop_zps1bbce0aa.jpg
This photo is a cropped detail of a larger image and shows: a fired .22PTL Blank (fired in one of the Adapter Cases I made); side and bottom views of the completed .25 Stevens CF case; bottom view of pilot drilled and counterbored RF case; bottom view of #2 Wire Size Drilled RF Case; Bottom view of Match Grade .22LR 'Freeland' chamber reamed RF Adapter Case; Side and bottom view of Adapter case with PTL blank inserted; side views of, in order .22 Caliber, Grade 1 (Gray) PTL, Grade 2 (Brown) PTL, Grade 3 (Green) PTL, and Grade 4 (Yellow) PTL Unfired Blanks.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

CW,

Your 4th paragraph says what needs to be said as ground rules. The 30 carbine was designed around a semi-automatic carbine platform while the 327 FM was designed for a revolver with revolver length barrels. Interesting (and loud) things happen when the carbine round is chambered in the Ruger BH revolver, and I would postulate that an increased level of performance would result from putting the 327 in a longer barrel with no cylinder gap to allow energy loss. Since the carbine round, must necessarily operate the semi-auto action of its intended platform, it is routinely loaded to operate within a fairly narrow window of performance. Since the 327 "home platform" is typically a revolver, the limits "go out the window" especially at the lower end for target use but also at the top, so long as the revolver is sufficiently strong (read "Ruger Blackhawk" or "K-frame S&W.")

With hand loading, the M-1 Carbine round has a lot of increased potential in a revolver, but I'm not sure it will really exceed that of the FM at the top end. I'm wondering whether anyone has compared factory loaded M-1 and 327 over the chronograph in Blackhawks with similar length barrels? That would be pretty simple to test and would give a good starting point for comparison. Shooting both at a ballistic pendulum would also be pretty interesting.

Just as a side note, my 327 FM hand loads (when loaded to mid- or upper level performance) tend to contain bullets in the 115-125 grain range. This is going to change the effect on the end point of the trajectory somewhat. Handloaded M-1 rounds in a revolver can be similarly tweaked, but I haven't done so (no M-1 BH) and don't know how well that would work. I've thought about putting together a 327 FM high wall Winchester... that would show what the absolute potential of the round would be! ;)

Regards,
Froggie

I am still hoping that a project I have with my Gunsmith will be finished sometime in the near future; this includes a .45WM conversion to a M1 Carbine and two Stevens Favorites.

Perhaps I will come up with the funds and parts later to try a 24", or longer, barrel on a Carbine Action but set up as a 'Straight Pull Single Shot' rather than a Semiautomatic. This would give a potential "Experimental platform" for a slightly larger range of loadings in .30 Carbine cases, limited by the Action Strength but without the gas operating restrictions on performance.

At the moment I do not have the financial resources to pursue this Idea though.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Crank,
How is the training at Dalgren Going?
I have not seen a post form you in a while.

Also again off subject: more happening with my 1894 Action at the gunsmith's:
Tuesday I picked it up to try out before he completed work ($150.00 for Labor to date) and found that yes it will fire two types of .25 Stevens substitutes, but still has issues.

Wednesday I took the action and two barrels plus some more test ammo back to my gunsmith and we planned the corrections to be made.

Saturday I took some fresh Completed ".25 Stewart Long Reloadable Rim fire" cartridges (same dimensions as a .25 Stevens except for rim diameter and thickness) as 'second generation' versions of the Straight Brass Tubing case with the .25 Caliber PTL Grade 3 Blank providing the Rim, primer and Propellant for the cartridge. I seated two different bullets fo rthe Trials: A "Hunters Bullet Supply" 63 grain .258" as cast Lead FRN; and a 51 grain "Carolina Cast bullets" 'Ranch dog .25ACP' Cast Lead RN.

I found out by accident that the champfer for the ID of the PTL end can be too much, as one case 'telescoped over the PTL Rim and I had a ahrd time removing the oversize 'flared Flange' that resulted.

These Tubing base cases are the only ones so far that seem to work with a .25 positioned RF firing pin in the 1894 Stevens action as the pin is set at an upward angle and it hits the rim of my Hornet based .22 RF Blank Adapters at an angle smashing the rim into the side of the RF rim. These hornet based adapters seem to work with a .22RF positioned firing pin though.
(tried them sans bullet in a .22RF Stevens Favorite using a .25 Stevens Barrel and without the extractor installed).

Also the .25 Stevens RF firing pin will fire .27 PTL Blanks breech loaded in a .25 Stevens Chamber with the Extractor present.

Removing the fired .22 Blanks from the adapters seems to work if a "Large Primer" Shell Holder is used to back up the adapter rim and then a Lee Universal De-capping Die will push out the fired blank.

So that is my progress to date on this part of my Projects.

Back to the normal Thread subject.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[OuchHot!]

There has been a magnificent amount of topic drift on this thread and all I can say is I Love It! I have learned a lot and really appreciate the info and craft herein.

[taco650]

I'd just like to see Crank finish this thing and post shooting results!

[Green Frog]

He was sent "back East" for a school, but should be home by now. I'm betting this is one of the first things he's going to want to play with when he gets settled back in. We met at the Nation's Gun Show two weeks ago and had a great time swapping stories about shooting, gun projects, etc ("sticks and strings and sealing wax, and other fancy things.")

Froggie

[ddixie884]

Cool, nice project............

[Green Frog]

Hey Crank, old friend... isn't it about time for you to give your loyal fans another update? Don't tell me you've still got this project on a back burner somewhere! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Crank]

Necro-thread resurrection. I had said I had a Dan Wesson I wanted to convert. Well, I kind of forgot about it and dug it out and wound up finishing the machine work in less than an hour. Sorry for being a procrastinator. Op-test was SAT, but cylinder to bore alignment is not perfect, so I will have to fine tune it, but it shot fine and nothing came apart. I put about 80 rounds through it and other than noticing it has a tendency for occasional light strikes on DA, I was happy
148347

148348

[Green Frog]

Wow Crank, this is a "blast from the past!" It's nice to see you back at the old machinery! As we discussed a year or so ago during your visit to VA, I believe the Dan Wesson system provides a good platform to develop a caliber-changeable gun such as you are doing here. Refresh my memory, did you start with a 32 H&R cylinder or did you ream a rim fire cylinder? Just as a procedural matter, I would consider checking barrel-cylinder alignment before reaming by making up a stepped rod to insure that factor was correct before starting any reaming. With the interest that has bubbled up again here as well as on the S&W forum, this is a timely event to hear from you again. Welcome back and don't be a stranger!

Your buddy,
Froggie

[taco650]

Crank lives!

[Crank]

Froggie,
Yes, I am still around. I was embarrassed when I realized how close to being done I was and had completely forgotten it was sitting there in a cardboard box. I started with a factory .32H&R Mag cylinder to ream out, I also bought one in 32-20 just in case. There wasn't much to document on this one, just some parts fitting and thread cutting. The cylinder alignment has me curious, these are the factory cuts in the cylinder and an unaltered cylinder stop. I had also purchased a spare cylinder stop, so if I have to do anything modification wise, I will have a backup. I will sit down with it and see what gives, I never fired the gun as a .357 and never bothered to check bbl/cyl alignment when I got it.
When you say interest, has there been a .327 Renaissance? I haven't read the forum for months, I am guilty of hanging out on the Colt Forum feeding my other addictions (a Colt in .327 is in the works :twisted: ). Just so everyone knows, I burned out on gun work and had to take a break, now I am back to my old tricks.

Mark

[Green Frog]

Froggie,
Yes, I am still around. I was embarrassed when I realized how close to being done I was and had completely forgotten it was sitting there in a cardboard box. I started with a factory .32H&R Mag cylinder to ream out, I also bought one in 32-20 just in case. There wasn't much to document on this one, just some parts fitting and thread cutting. The cylinder alignment has me curious, these are the factory cuts in the cylinder and an unaltered cylinder stop. I had also purchased a spare cylinder stop, so if I have to do anything modification wise, I will have a backup. I will sit down with it and see what gives, I never fired the gun as a .357 and never bothered to check bbl/cyl alignment when I got it.
When you say interest, has there been a .327 Renaissance? I haven't read the forum for months, I am guilty of hanging out on the Colt Forum feeding my other addictions (a Colt in .327 is in the works :twisted: ). Just so everyone knows, I burned out on gun work and had to take a break, now I am back to my old tricks.

Mark
""a Colt in 327..." you say? This is the wheelgun board, old buddy... you can talk about it here and noone will complain at all. If I weren't so heavily vested in my S&W projects with Ruger in the background, I could probably stir up interest in a SAA dual cylinder 327/32-20 or perhaps an Official Police. C'mon, 'fess up to your latest wild flight of fancy! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Crank]

Oh, I have no intention of an SAA. Right now the toss up is between a 1967 Officers Model or a 1978 Python. The OM is mint, but has a bulged barrel and the Python has damage to the finish due to poor storage, both guns are mechanically like new. I am a double action kind of guy, I only have a couple of Ruger single actions, because of caliber, a Blackhawk in .30 and a Single Seven in .327. I already have the donor cylinder for the Colt (bought at the show we met at) and a barrel blank. If I do the OM, it will be a 7 1/2" barrel, if I go for the Python it will be a 6". I will post a separate thread later today about a Reichsrevolver and an idea for brass.

Mark

[Green Frog]

I'll be waiting by the computer with bated breath and a cooling cup of coffee! :coffeecom