OLD Shotgun Powder ID. PLEASE HELP

[Big Steve]

I found some very old shotgun powder when I was cleaning out the shed after my Father passed. Found some 4 lb kegs of WSF, HS6, and HS7, it all looks, smells, and works just fine. Yeah, I know, it was like finding a gold mine with this shortage going on. BUT, I also found a large keg of powder in a cardboard keg with a metal top, the label is off this keg, it is marked only with the letters and numbers "HR236" printed on the side. Evidently we had used this powder for magnum shotgun shell loads because in my Father's handwriting on the side he wrote "magnum". The powder looks like new, smells good, and consists or black flakes with just a few red flakes also.

In light of desperate powder times I don't want to waste it. It appears to be about 6 lbs. Can anybody ID this powder for me ? I'd sure like to use it !!!!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

This is a Joke...Right ?

You better find a Medium and conduct a séance.

[Big Steve]

Nope, no joke. I thought the "HR236" might mean something to somebody.

[w30wcf]

Steve,
Hmmm..... I have not heard of that one. It could have been a special lot of something which carried that particular number. What are you planning on using it in?

Several years ago in helping a deceased friend's widow sell his reloading components, I came across a 4# container of a powder that was not marked and that I was unable to identify. So.... I decided to load some .357's starting with data for "Bullseye" and chronograph it. Long story short, turns out it is a ballistic twin to W231 but doesn't look anything like it. I now load it using 231 data and it has worked very well.:)


w30wcf

[ShooterAZ]

Sounds like it "might" be Red Dot, but only the seance will tell for sure. For me, no label from a third party=lawn fertilizer. Shame to waste a keg of Red Dot though.

[w5pv]

HS6 is the same as Win Ball 540.

[Big Steve]

Yes, actually when I said HS6 it was actually W540. W30wcf if I can't ID it I was planning on testing it out like that. I would like to use it in .357/.38, 45 acp, 9mm.

[dougader]

I was thinking Red Dot, too, except that it is not considered a magnum shotshell powder; more like a target shotshell powder.

[Big Steve]

I was thinking Red Dot too, but I thought that would be to easy. Do any other old shotgun powders have red flakes other than Red Dot ?

[tomme boy]

I would say red dot also. Post a close up pic with the red flakes showing. I'm betting "HR236" is the lot #. Give Alliant a call or email and ask if they have this # as a lot #. Don't know if they have it that far back as it would be Hercules brand though. I would not throw it away.

[tomme boy]

Does it look like this?

[JeffinNZ]

When in doubt sprinkle it on the lawn. It's not worth a gamble.

[jdgabbard]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100026&d=1395284004

Above is a picture of Red Dot. My guess would be that it's the same. However, you don't know this. Now others will tell you to dump it. But I'm not going to. Considering that we know shotgun and pistol powders are in the same realm when it comes to burn rate: What I would suggest you do is like mentioned above. Start off with Bullseye data, and work up IN A PISTOL CARTRIDGE. When you get worked up to a known load with real Red Dot, compare the two. If they're pretty much on, I'd say use it as Red Dot. However, I wouldn't use this for shotgun loads. Pressure is too sensitive from what I have read. I would use it for pistol ammo instead.

[jdgabbard]

And another note. We're always told to dump powder, we don't know what it is... We don't know burn rates... We don't know what it was used for... Take surplus powder for an example. TONS of powder have been sold as surplus with no idea what it's used for. Reloaders have bought this, and carefully projected burn rates and worked up loads for decades. If you're not confident enough in your own judgement to do so, then so be it. But that doesn't mean there isn't relatively safe ways of using "surplus" powder.

[Big Steve]

Thanks Guys. Gonna go with the "Bullseye" theory and work up. At least I definitely know it's shotgun powder. I'll safely and slowly work a plinking load up starting tomorrow. Will let Y'all know how it goes.

[rhead]

I have a couple of 15 pound containers of Unique that are constructed the same way you described. I have heard that Unique once contained orange flakes in it but was discontinued after the introduction of red dot. I have no conformation of that rumor. If you load a few rounds using red dot starting data and fire them over a chronograph it could be informative.

[jonp]

My first thought is Red Dot. IDK...an unknown powder in a cardboard unmarked container found in a shed. Sounds a little dicey to me. I'd be very careful with this. Start very low and use a BlackHawk.

[Bullshop]

The numbers on the container might be the lot number for that batch of powder. All the "DOT" powders had identifying colors of flakes in them for exactly this reason. Red Dot and Bullseye are not far apart in burn rate so starting with Bullseye loads wont be far off if it is RedDot.
When you start load development hopefully you have a chronograph and several load data books to cross reference what your getting to published data. Doing so will give a much better feel of what your working with.
When attempting this type of load development with an unknown I like to use the softest primer available and start with very light loads. This way a soft primer is a very early indicator of pressure to watch for. Kinda like having a dog that barks at the first sign of trouble.
I may afterword's switch to a harder primer for further load development but like having my watch dog for early stages.
Say for instance I will use a Rem 1 1/2 primer because I know that at about 20,000 psi they are telling me something. Then I would cross reference my load at that point with published data for BE, and RD for velocity and pressure. You should with a bit of load development of this sort be able to not only identify the powder type but even to know if it is a fast or slow lot of same.

[Big Steve]

O.K. Guys, My apologies. The powder I was looking at with the red dots was Red Dot. I went to retrieve the powder last night and found the marked Red Dot. It was several weeks since I saw this powder. The questionable powder lot "HR236" powder is just black flakes.

I loaded some .38 and .45 acp using Bullseye data last night. 158 gr LSWC/ 3.5 mystery powder and 230 gr LRN/4.7 mystery powder. Went out and shot them this morning. All way too light with no signs of pressure. .38's shot very well' but way too light for my liking. 45's shot well from XD Tactical, but too light to cycle the XD.

I pretty much excluded Red Dot, Green Dot, and Blue Dot on appearance. That left Herco and Unique because this was obviously a Hercules container. I'm pretty convinced that it's Unique because I found good loads at: .38 special 158 gr LSWC/4.7 gr Mystery Powder and .45 acp 230 gr LRN/ 5.8 gr Mystery Powder, both good Unique loads. ZERO signs of pressure, shoot very well, .45 cycles well, and zero leading.

Either way, whatever it is, I found really good loads for my .38's and .45's. and got 6+ pounds of free powder that should load at least 7000 loads for my 2 favorite calibers. Not a bad deal since I haven't been able to buy almost any decent pistol powder in a year !

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions, it worked out really well for me this time. Between this and all the other powder I found in the workshop I came away with about 15 pounds of shotgun/pistol powder, old powder albeit, but it all works perfectly !!!

BTW, that was all lead boolits that I casted myself from free scrounged lead. As of right now, and for the near future, I will be shooting for the cost of primers only.

[MtGun44]

Probably Red Dot, never heard of a single case of a powder with red flakes that was
not RD.

Treat as Red Dot and try a few LOW pistol loads in a strong gun. It will probably chrono
right out with Red Dot data.

Otherwise, send it to me - I'll pay shipping.

Bill

[jdgabbard]

Glad it worked out for you. And to think that they told you to poor it on the lawn...

[rcav8r]

I've got a similar situation. MEC bottle nearly full of powder, PROBABLY uniqe, but I'm not sure. :(


ETA: small chance it could be 2400 also.

[jdgabbard]

Unique has large circular flakes. 2400 is more granular like Bullseye.

[tomme boy]

2400 is not a flake at all. Look at them with a magnifying glass and you will see the difference.

[Big Steve]

Glad it worked out for you. And to think that they told you to poor it on the lawn...

Yup, I got more sense than money. I'm usually pretty resourceful when it comes to shootin' irons and related stuff. I would have been apprehensive to pour it out even if powder was readily available right now, which it's not. I haven't been able to purchase any pistol powder for a normal price in over a year now. That old reloading shed discovery has got me sitting pretty good right now. Must be old Pop's smiling down on his baby boy, still helping me out !

[zuke]

Sound's like perfect stuff for reduced/plinking load's

[Big Steve]

Sound's like perfect stuff for reduced/plinking load's

Yup, that's what I'm using it for, and plenty of 'em too!