most powder charge in 45-70 case

[bigted]

so here is my experiment ...

I will soon be in western Oregon where the Roosevelt Elk live. now this is home country for me and I look forward to hunting there in the thick stuff again for my favorite animule ... the largest Elk America has to offer. they are truly magnificent animals and to watch them go thru the maple thickets and thick stuff on the coast range is something to stand in wonder of.

at any rate I have never hunted there with black powder for them and I am determined to do so before im too crippled to go after them. my rifle of choice for now is my Winchester 1885 in 45-70 ...[japchester]... and I have been experimenting with loads for about 4 years now ... found several that would do the trick however ... they are all for up here in the cold and I longed for a straight blackpowder load that I felt was up to the task with truly large animals.

now I DO KNOW about all the bison that fell to this round and I do have trust in the written word concerning these rounds but ... im not sure about my luck in making a western elk lay down rite away rather then having to chase them down like I did when I was a kid. they will go into the deepest and darkest valley and hunker down under the thickest brush ever imaginable and be rite down hard to find ... specially if it is raining ...[like it do there in fall]... where the tracks and blood sign will soon get washed away with all the water falling outta the sky.

sooo ... this is the experiment at long last ...

to find a load that has as much snoose in it as I can get loaded with the best fouling left for repeat shots if needed ... say 3 or maybe 4.

to find this load ... I took a winchester case and neck sized it to just grip my .459 inch boolits. primed it with cci 200 large rifle primers ... flaired the mouth for shoving in the boolits.

next I loaded 45 grains cartridge powder in the cases ... 5 total ... and compressed this amount to just the point of bulging the case ... next I loaded 45 more grains and compressed this to the required .540 inch for my 350 grain boolits to seat without wad and to chamber.

using all my 350 grain boolits in this experiment I turned to my Lee 405 grain hollow base boolits to continue with as I really do want the 400ish grain boolits to hunt elk with. so I proceeded to load in the same fashion the 90 grain loads and loaded the 405's on top without any wad whatsoever.

next I loaded 5 with 85 grains powder in the same fashion with the 405's

next I loaded 5 with 80 grains ... only this time I compressed these 80 grain loads all at once with the two stage compression I needed for getting the 90 grains in the case with enough room to seat the boolits.

allowing them to "settle" over nite ... I took them to a private little place I shoot at today and placed them up at 75 yards ... my pie plates with a drawn black circle in the middle for targets.

shooting the 90 grain loads with the 350 boolits first I found them to scatter shots about at near 5 inch's.

shooting the same 90 grain loads with 405 grain Lee boolits next and see that they bunch closer at 3 inch's but with the 90 grain loads I observe it taking 5 or 6 patch's to clean between the 5 shot groups.

next shot the 85 grain loads with the 405 grain boolits and they hover into a 2 inch group with a very easy 3 patch cleanup for a sparkling clean barrel. very encouraging.

next and to my great surprise I shot the 80 grain loads ... these came into 1.5 inch with a flyer I called to open it up to the 2.5 inch overall group ... BUT ... the crazy thing was the ease of fouling clean up ... man these loads cleaned up with 2 patch's and a dry for a done/clean barrel.

the thing that even makes me wonder more about these loads and the accuracy and clean shooting is the fact that I shot every one with no wads in the mix whatsoever.

just wanted to report for now my progress in a load that is destined for landing inside and thru a huge bull of some of the finest eating the good lord ever put in our woods. also wanted to find out if any one else has experimented with the "heavy" loads in the 45-70 cases.

[Don McDowell]

Ted there isn't an elk alive that's going to walk away from a good hit in the vitals with a 500 gr government bullet and 70 grs of powder. Or even a traditional sharps/Remington patched bullet weighing around 500 grs.

[Lead pot]

If I were to hunt using a .45-70 with a GG bullet I would use the BACO 465 gr RN what they call the chicken bullet and learn the drop at the ranges you feel comfortable shooting. No need for heavy compression. Starting with about 68 gr of OE up or down a few till you find the accuracy. Hard to beat the RN for a hunting bullet.

[bigted]

so just to be sure here ... you guys are saying that a round nose boolit will expand and plow thru ... destroying tissue along with deep penetration ... on the same line or better then a nice wide meplate flat nose boolit ... along the lines of the RCBS flat nose boolits of 300 , 400 , 500 grain weight?

I have always been of the notion that the flat nose would expand better and dig just as deep AND be a more reliable killer then the round nose boolits ... and that the round nose boolits were better for bucking the wind and placing better groups on a target range. not so much eh?

I have read both sides of this subject and to be honest I don't know as I have not had the opportunity to use both on the same game to compare them for the best quality for their killing power and tissue destruction.

so in your experience with pure blackpowder loads and round nose boolits ... you are convinced that the round nose is better then the flat nose?

I am sure that the round nose will kill these animals ... BUT ... what im afraid of is how soon they will die using them. this is the why of wanting the most snoose and a big flat meplate ... as I really do not have the youth nor desire I used to have to track an Elk down into the deep canyons stuffed with such heavy brush that unless you have seen it ... it will be hard to explain. I have hunted Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho and eastern Oregon ... and allow me to say that none of these places have what I talk about on the coast range in western Oregon. I have been in some places here in Alaska that came close but NEVER seen anything to compare with this ugly, thick and impossible to crawl thru mess that grows in these draws and canyons I talk about hunting in. if you have never experienced the viney maple that grows there and with either a chainsaw or rifle to drag thru it then id invite you to come hunt with me when I get settled down there.

at any rate ... back to the point I guess ... not trying to begin a urinating contest with these facts ... just like to make my point concerning my desire to use as decisive a round as is possible and still use blackpowder and cast boolits. hence the experimenting with these hot bp loads. will not use em tho if you fellas tell me that the rounds you talk about will do the job with a decisive end to escape of the quarry.

[Don McDowell]

Ted the government bullets in the 45-70 were designed to take out cavalry horses and if it blew thru two or three soldiers along the way so much the better.

[Dan Cash]

70 gr. of black and any of your 4-500 grain bullets, even spitzers, will make elk DRT if you shoot them where they need to be shot. Probably the little hollow point Gould would work too. Gut shoot the critter and you have a job on your hands.

[Lead pot]

Ted.

Your not going to shoot that Elk at Creedmoor ranges. Either the flat nosed or Gov type bullet will do it's job in fine shape.
The two Buffalo's I shot I put them down using the .44-77 and the .44-90bn with a 480gr and a 500 gr RN. Both kicked up enough sand passing through that it would have put a second one down with a pass through if he was lined up behind the first.

I forgot to add. The expansion you can regulate with the temper of the alloy. The good thing about the flat nosed or round nosed bullet they will fly straight with out the worry of a off center nose slump.

[Don McDowell]

This bullet cast from 9lbs wheelweight and 1 lb pure lead weighing about 520 grs, and lobbed out of the almost 45-2.4 Italian sharps with 85 grs of goex 1f
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/paperpatch.jpg
Looked like this after it passed on a quartering shot on a bull elk at 204 yds and was found just under the hide in front of the shoulder on the offside. That elk folded all 4 legs in mid air , almost beat his shadow to the ground, bounced and never moved again.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/paperrecovered.jpg

[bigted]

very cool fellers. I have more of the 80 grain cartridge powder loaded under my accurate mold 405 grain boolit that I will try for accuracy ... then I dug out my last can ...jug ... GOEX 2F powder and began to load at the same setting on my RCBS powder drop without changing the setting and guess what ... same volume setting that netted me 80 grains of cartridge would only throw 70 grains of the 2F ... each weighed on the electronic scale for accuracy. seems like 10 grain difference is a bunch for the two powders ... anyway I loaded the 70 grain load under 8 more 405 accurate boolits. the mold is the # 460400B.

I mounted my Leopold scope on the Winchester last nite for the testing and cant wait to go out and further the testing of these boolits.

Don ... that boolit looks like my RCBS slick mold that throws a 540 grain boolit and measures at .452 inch. I have had mixed results in the accuracy dept. with this boolit but maybe I should revisit it to ensure I am not overlooking something. I believe that your alloy is a bit harder then what im shooting but your mix sounds like a great mix for hunting ... do you use this same mix for your target shoots? that is a good report on the elk ... AND ... at over 200 yards to boot ... great report bud. even tho it is one of those SMALL rocky mountain elk ... [smilie=l: ... dig dig dig !!

[Don McDowell]

Ted I use mostly 20-1 alloy for match shooting.
That bullet of yours at .452, the diameter is most likely what is giving you fits with the accuracy.

[bigted]

yours is a .444 inch diameter ... correct?

[Don McDowell]

The bullet pictured here is .435 on the base. I wrap it to .450 using HP lazerjet printer paper. The bullets I shot in the 45 for target purposes are .444 wrapped in 8lb for the best accuracy.
When you get back down to the states you may want to try some Eynsford 2f in your 45-70, several folks are reporting 1250+ with 480 gr bullets if that won't knock an elk on his side, nothing is going to.

[kootne]

bigted, I have shot several elk with the 45/75 black powder and 350 gr. bullet. And a lot more with a .30/06. For my money the '06 kills them a lot faster. I have knocked a couple off their feet and rolled them down the moutain with the .45 but they were never dead when I got there. I always put the bullet through the lungs. For me, if I get the chance, I want the bullet to take out both front pins and it will do the lungs and maybe the heart on the way through. I am in a pretty brushy corner of the world too, not like the coast but still, if an elk goes 20' around here it is usually out of sight and then you probably have to get back within 20' of it to see it again. I will gladly give up a little shoulder meat to see one fall down and stay down.
kootne

[bigted]

thanks ... here is the latest today on the continuing experiment ...

I loaded 5 rounds with the 80 grain cartridge yesterday using my 405 grain accurate boolits ... shot em today and they went into a 1 7/8 inch group. no flyers but I hope for a bit better then this.

I also loaded 5 rounds with 70 grains 2F powder using the same boolit ... shot them today as well after a good cleanup of the barrel and received a 1 1/4 inch group ... nice and round. this is what im lookin for really.

this morning as a bonus I took 5 ... 380 grain BACO slicks in .444 that had onion paper wrap making them .4505 inch dry and ready to load and shoot. I loaded them over a drop tubed powder charge of 80 grains of 2F powder. [im tellin you that this rifle does NOT like the bore diameter patched boolits] ... I loaded them over a card [playing card] wad over powder then compress it so I could seat a 1/8th inch lube soaked felt wad and another poker card wad over this then the patched boolit seated 1/4 inch in the case. when I chamber a round it engraves the paper in the rifling so I know it is nice and straight to begin with. taking thumb pressure to fully seat the case/load in the chamber ... I had neck sized the winchester brass with my 45 colt size die and opened it back with a .450/.452 flair from BACO. no crimp and I thumb seated them on the upper card wad. I have done everything I know to do and tried most suggestions from folks with this rifle and im tellin ya that it HATES the bore size wrapped boolits. I mean it scattered the 5 across 12 inch's at 75 yards ... yep 1 foot pattern ... now I can load the .452 slicks wrapped up to .459 to .460 inch and shoot them with black powder and do ever so much better then this. I have done duplex and lube cookies and these will shoot as long as I care to shoot. they also group into around 2 to 3.5 inch's so they do fairly well with blackpowder ... not so much with the bore diameter tho ... this just sews it up for me so it was not a waste of time ... any shooting is considered a good time ... even the 1 foot scattered patterns.

[Nobade]

Ted, your rifle sounds like mine! My C.Sharps 45-70 has about 3/8" of .460" freebore in the chamber, and it in no way will shoot slicks patched to bore. Same thing you are getting. But .452" slicks patched to .460" - now that works well. Except there's not enough room in the case for powder and a grease cookie. So I just shoot it with 70gr. powder and a lubed, grooved Postell boolit. It shoots awesome with that and I keep the slicks for my other rifle that has a proper paper patch chamber in it. Have to feed 'em what they want, y'know.

-Nobade

[sharpsguy]

Ted--Quit trying to re invent the wheel. You have two choices, both good ones. One is the 457125 Govt bullet at 520 grains over 70 grains of either 3f or 2f powder. Use KIK. The other choice is the Lyman 457121 PH bullet which is a 480 grain flat nosed bullet over 66.5 grains of KIK 3f. I have killed everything from 2000 plus pound bison to 15 pound steenbok in Africa with the Govt. bullet. I have used both bullets to take kudu, wildebeast, bison, and a host of other African plains game species with these black powder loads, and have ALWAYS got complete pass through with either bullet. Use a MINIMUM 480 grain bullet with either a flat or round nose at 1200 to 1250 fps and don't worry about it. 50/50 ACWW and lead works like a champ. Don't over think it, just cast the bullets up, load them, and pop him on or behind the shoulder. The last elk I shot was a really big cow at 103 yards, and she went straight down, dropped at the shot, DRT. 500 grain round nose paper patched bullet at 1245fps out of my 45-110. Your 45-70 with the Govt. bullet will do the same thing.

[bigted]

OK OK OK ... gonna have to cast up some good ol gubberment boolits I guess. haven't played with them for a while so my be time to revisit them in my quest.

maybe I am trying to reinvent the wheel ... but I have a great time doing so. sometimes I get tunnel vision and forget the basics that I learned at the beginning of my trail. guess too many books and too many other opinions in my noggin to sift thru. I drift away from the basics and forget that simple is best ... hard to beat the basics that have served for so many years.

[Don McDowell]

Ted way way back, they tried to compress a bunch of powder into different cartridges to gain a bit more velocity for long range shooting. The end result was they ended up with some heavy fouling, lots of recoil and no gain or a loss in accuracy. That's why the 44 2 5/8, and the 45 2.4 cases were born..

[bigted]

I have 5 405's loaded ahead of 70 grains with no card or wad again ... 5 loaded with a playing card between the boolit and powder ... 5 loaded with a bit more compression and two cards and one 1/8th felt soaked in my cookie lube ... 5 loaded with the same 70 grains behind a BACO 460500 government style boolit seated out to touch the rifling which exposes about half of the front lube groove filled with lube ... and 5 of the same 500's and the 70 grains with the powder compressed so the case crimps over the forward beveled drive band [sorta like the armory loads were loaded].

now I have to wait out the snow and cleanup ...[who needs March anyway]... for the shoot to see how these will act. I cant remember and didn't find my "book" that my notes were written in concerning these Baco 500's so will have to make new notes on these 500's unless I can locate the "other book" I made notes in. shoulda transferred all the notes into my BIG book of load notes I have like I thought about doing ... ha ... procrastination ... works every time ! ... [smilie=p:

these BACO's look the most like the original boolits loaded in the army loads ... nice deep and wide grease grooves and the nose is a bit more in a pointy look then the Lyman ... I have held original bullets from battlefields in my fingers and these look more like the original article then the 457125 Lyman does. I like them also for the bit larger diameter in the drive bands ... so as soon as weather provides ...[sounds familiar huh]... I will put em to paper and see how they will act accuracy wise. [smilie=s: ... :groner:

[Don McDowell]

Ted as our buddy Mike T has a habit of saying, keep on keepin on and havin fun. That's the main thing, this stuff is just a hobby and as such is supposed to be fun.

[bigted]

Don ... when the weather gets ugly here ... I grab the C&B revolvers and out in the howling windy snow filled air we go ... get a blast of powder smoke in me lung and powder stains on the fingers ... equals a happy camper every time. this is a hoot and I try not to take it too serious as the last time I did that with a fun hobby ... I turned it into a business which took all the fun and enjoyment outta it in a hurry ... not going down that road again ... partly the why of not competing in any of the sports yet ... maybe when the sun is a bit lower in the sky.

HA ... if we ever get the sun again that is ... :takinWiz:

[Larry Gibson]

bigted

The 80 gr load under a 500 gr bullet was used as a target load "back in the day" for use in some Marksman TDs. I have shot numerous 80 gr loads of GOEX Cartridge under the 405 gr Lee HB and the 460500 Rapine with excellent results out of my TD also. Your situation with the lever gun probably limits you to the 405 gr HB bullets but they will kill elk all day long and then some.

I suggest a reading of Spence Wolf's very fine book on loading for the TD may assist. If not you might try drilling the flash holes out with a #41 or a 3/32" drill. Then use a magnum primer with the Federal 215M or the Winchester WLRM being the primers of choice. The use of the larger flash hole and the magnum primer gives much better ignition to a heavily compressed BP charge such as you are using. That also makes the BP burn a bit cleaner leaving less fouling.

Good luck, my first elk was a Roosevelt in the old Tillamook Burn. Took it with a M94 Carbine 30-30 with a 311041. Good thing I did it back before I read I needed a god awful mugglesome magnum to kill an elk with. Had I known that those 311041s would have probably bounced of the cow's hide......a little knowledge can be dangerous yah know.......:sad:

Larry Gibson

[Don McDowell]

Levergun? Ted you holdin out on us?

[Larry Gibson]

Oops....my bad....read "japchester" and misconscrewed the 1885 into 1886................:oops:

Larry Gibson

[bigted]

I have killed a couple Roosevelt elk myself and used a 270 winchester on em. I too didn't know that the little bitty 270 would not do the job either. upon reading I realize that if a feller don't have at least a 338 cal in a armbreaker ... you cant kill em.

no im using a Japchester hunter model 45-70 with blackpowder. one of the elk I killed ... [as a kid] ... wound up diving into a deep canyon just south of the Tillamook burn area. I was in the Elliot state forest and had to trail him down over a cliff that nearly killed me getting to him. dead but traveled some 200 yards before he expired ... just didn't know he had no heart ... finally stumbled over a stump and couldn't get his feet again.

as for the levers ... yes I do have a couple 45-70 levers ... Marlins both ... Cowboy and a SBL model. like em both but have a hankerin to use the 1885 for a jolt down memory lane in the old coast range that I cut my teeth on in my youth. I do know that these elk can die on their feet but want to give em every chance to do so for these old bones as I don't relish chasing one down ... if I do ... might just have to build a good camp where I find him ... and ... begin eating rite there.

also have paid the last time ... [yesterday] ... [hopefully] ... here for GOEX 2F powder at 30.00 dollars a pound so am certainly lookin forward to getting down to an area that I can get powder at a more reasonable cost.

[bigted]

so after a side journey in further disgust with paperpatch ... I returned to my load development for the hunt I plan on doing.

I shot a few of the 460500 gubbermint boolits ahead of the 70 grain load ... I loaded both felt lube cookie style ... and ... just plain as well as out to engrave the rifling ... and ... seated to crimp over the first tapered drive band. these did nothing spectacular in my winchester ... I could not get them to beat the 3 inch mark no matter what I tried. plenty of whop but not the best of accuracy.

went back to my 460400B accurate boolits and the 70 grain charge under them with NO wad or card and NO fouling control as a hunting round should be ... these really astound me with their accuracy in this Japchester 1885. with the Leopold 3.5 to 10x mounted it will ... with 3 shots ... cut the same hole with 2 outta 3 and hover inside a 1-1/2 inch group with 5 shots. these 405 grain boolits are the absolute best in this rifle. the shiny smooth bore that has been lapped with a couple hundred paperpatch shots is a pleasure to shoot AND to clean.

now I have 10 loaded with the 2F powder and 5 with the Cartridge powder as a comparison to see if the 2F will keep ahead of the cartridge powder in accuracy and fouling. cant wait to get to Oregon to purchase some Old E to give a try ... gonna try the KIK as well.

at any rate the repeatability of this 70 grain 2F load is just up my alley. it works and is nice and stiff yet not too rough to shoot several in a setting without getting tired with recoil. I like this load and setup as it allows me to have a load in a rifle that is reminiscent of the old days without breaking the bank.

my Marlin likes them as well but I need to shoot a few to see if they will group as well in the '95' SBL rifle and I will have to try some in the '95' Cowboy rifle as well ... altho I have a glob in the barrel under the "danger" stamp inside the barrel which causes leading in that area ... but will try some just to see how they act anyway.