What cartridge for a mod 44 Stevens

[Bullshop]

I have acquired a Stevens mod 44 action. Its a completely rebuilt action with new breech block. The breech block is not yet drilled so can be either CF or RF. I will not have a RF for the currently obvious reason.
So what to make it? I do not envision this ever being more than a walk about small game gun not a target shooter so fancy sights and heavy barrels are out. Probably just a simple barrel mounted buckhorn rear with a post and globe front or something simple.
I don't want a 22 hornet because at Hornet length the brass is too thin. I am considering a 22 Squirrel because when the Hornet brass is cut back you end up with thicker brass at the mouth. Have also considered the 22 Cooper but already have one and would rather have something for which I can make brass myself. I have tried and failed to make 22 Cooper brass.
Another cartridge I am considering I will call the 30 Special. It is formed by running a 38 Special case FL into a 7.62 Tok die. It forms a very handsome little 30 cal bottle neck on the 38 Special case.
I would have to go full custom on the 30 Special on both reamer and dies. I already have the 22 Squirrel dies, and I already have a 22 Cooper reamer.
Maybe none of these and just go with a 32 S&W long. I don't know yet but its fun pondering. I have for the longest time wanted to try a 25 Hornet but then you have the thin brass thingy. I have my eye on a set of dies for a 25K Hornet of which I have never heard. Sounds interesting though but then to keep it simple there's the 25/20 WCF.
So this is my current dilemma and will be thankful for all input.

[Bullshop]

You think the 32 H&R mag is acceptable pressure wise with factory ammo? I have a Ruger old model single six I have converted to center fire that is now a 32 mag so already have dies, brass etc.
Did they ever load longer cartridges on a #44 like 32/40?

[MT Chambers]

Def. not cals. like the .32/40...... .22rf, .22 mag. maybe, small low pressure cartridges only, pref. black powder.....this is not a strong action and not to be confused with the #44 1/2.
I'd stay away from the .32 Mag., etc.

[john hayslip]

It's a black powder action and that just barely. I've had several and currently have a 25-21. At one time I had the breechblock and barrel out of one that had been converted to 357 Mag and someone had put a hot one in it and blew the action. Personally I'd stay away form any thing hot - or anything that has Magnum in its name. The 32 S&W should be a neat case for it and all you'd probably need is the seating and crimp die as you would use you 32 mag sizer. I suspect even the old 32-20 hi velocity (1800 fps) shells would take it apart.

[john hayslip]

Oh, and when you convert if you need a new extractor for it CPA has them. They are tricky to fit - fit the rear (barrel end ) first so there are no gaps than work on the front and groove.

[Bullshop]

So how does a Stevens #44 compare in strength to one of the small rolling blocks that were chambered for the rim fire cartridges?
Anyone know where I might find a stock for a 44 action?

[kootne]

Bullshop, those actions were chambered in .32/40 and .38/55. Most of the originals in those calibers had a special lug on the hammer so that when the hammer fell the lug set under the breechblock to support it in the same manner a rolling block hammer locks the breech.
The action is much better suited to .32/20 and smaller. If you watch Gunbroker, E-Fence, etc. you probably can pick up a .25/20 single shot barrel relatively reasonable. that seems to be one of the most common calibers. I really like the .25/20 ss. The down side is brass and dies are not cheap, however both are currently made. Maybe buy a barrel with a trashed bore and reline to .32/20?
kootne

[Bullshop]

Were all 44s take down type with the barrel locking bolt at the bottom of the receiver?

[358wcf]

Bullshop-
To get accurate answers regarding everything "Stevens #44" actions, strongly suggest you head on over to ASSRA.COM website- Those fellows (I'm one of 'em) can tell you anything you might want to know regarding the old Stevens singleshot rifles and actions-
Regarding your question about stocks- head on over to the CPA Rifles website- they can provide you with virtually all parts for your action, as well as stocks- call them up, speaking directly with either Gail or Paul Shuttleworth, the owners of the company, who actually make and shoot the Stevens-- you can take their advise to the bank, as they know what they say--
Best of luck to you- I'm facing the same decisions myself with respect to a much stronger Stevens 44 1/2 I've recently acquired--
Keep us posted on your findings, decisions, and how it turns out--

Chuck 358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[smkummer]

I almost always think of resale if I were to do a project like this. 32-20 is period correct and can be a handloaders delight. 32 S&Wlong is a small game plinking round and has its uses. If it can be chambered in 32-40, that cartridge can always be downloaded and with its original specs. used as a 200 yard target /deer round.

[Bullshop]

Period correct
22 Cooper = 22 Maynard extra long.
I just don't like the brass situation. The 22 Velodog is also the same. I have tried to find some S&B brass for the Velodog but have not been successful. Would like to see if it is reloadable.

[Chev. William]

Why not consider the .32 Extra Long, a straight wall cartridge that should not overstress the '44' action, I understand it was loaded with about 105 Grain bullets and 20 grains of Black powder originally, and later converted to Smokeless before being dropped by commercial loaders around WW1.
Case lengths seem to be around 1.150" to 1.250" so there is good capacity for a small hunting round.
A .300" bore/.308" groove barrel would make a 'tight' shooting rifle, especially if it is around 26 to 28 inches long.
Yet, it would be down loaded with shorter cartridges such as .32 Long Colt, just use Heeled bullets to get them to proper size foe the bore/groove size.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[gnoahhh]

I've been looking at the .25/20SS Basic Brass from Captech and thinking it would make a nifty 7mm cast bullet cartridge left as-is. Low pressure smokeless/black powder loads in it wouldn't stress a 44 action, but still what's to stop some goofball from packing it full of 4227 sometime and wrecking things I guess.

Really, why not .22 rimfire? Do you think the current 'panic' situation will last forever?

Aside from pressure/safety concerns when considering the Hornet- definitely a no no in a 44- I have to take exception to the old rhubarb about Hornet brass being too 'thin'. I've been hearing this a lot lately around the internet and don't understand it. Did somebody say it once and everyone in the herd is regurgitating it? I've been fooling with Hornets for four decades and never once felt handicapped by inferior case thickness. That goes for full power high velocity loads as well as cat sneeze lead bullet poppers.

[uscra112]

Sent you another PM.

Phil

[Superduty]

I built one in 25/20 wcf last winter has been a blast shooting quiet, no recoil and shooting cast bullets is just as cheep to shoot as a .22 rf.

[358wcf]

I think Superduty has the right idea here. Keeping in "period" with the rifle/action, 1890-1930, it appears lower-powered, lower-pressured choices might include the 25-20wcf (Repeater), 32-20wcf, 32s&w long, and the very practical 38Special. I'm leaning toward the 38Special for rebuilding my model45 Stevens target rifle. Perhaps even a rebore by JES might be in order to keep costs down.
My two cents worth-
358wcf

[Mk42gunner]

Dan,

We are talking about the Model 44 that is basically a slightly larger Favorite action, right?

For the uses you listed, I think a great (maybe not perfect, but close) choice would be the .32S&W Long. Your dies and most of the molds you use for your .32 H&R will work, and cases are fairly common.

Put a light octagon barrel about 26-28" long on it with a slender stock and forearm and it should look pretty good.

Just my opinion,

Robert

[John Boy]

Sounds interesting though but then to keep it simple there's the 25/20 WCF
Step it up to the old Stevens 25-21! I have a CPA barrel with the caliber and it just wants to find bulls eyes - honestly!

[selmerfan]

I like John Boy's idea. I inherited a Stevens 44 1/2 originally chambered in .22 LR match and had CPA make me a .30-40 Krag barrel for it last year. I can currently reload the Krag with cast boolits cheaper than I can purchase .22 LR ammunition - I understand where Bullshop is coming from. As for re-sale/value - having another barrel built doesn't detract - they easily screw on and off the frames.

[slumlord44]

The 44 is not a 44 1/2. .25-20SS, .25-21, .25-25, ,32-20 at the most and loaded with black powder or black powder equivalent loads. .22 LR, .22 Mag, or .17 HRM would be safer and more appropriate. No way for some idiot to overload it in the future. I have a bunch of them and have been collecting, shooting, and researching Stevens for many years. You can do a centerfire but be aware of what you are working with.

[Chev. William]

I have acquired a Stevens mod 44 action. Its a completely rebuilt action with new breech block. The breech block is not yet drilled so can be either CF or RF. I will not have a RF for the currently obvious reason.
So what to make it? I do not envision this ever being more than a walk about small game gun not a target shooter so fancy sights and heavy barrels are out. Probably just a simple barrel mounted buckhorn rear with a post and globe front or something simple.
I don't want a 22 hornet because at Hornet length the brass is too thin. I am considering a 22 Squirrel because when the Hornet brass is cut back you end up with thicker brass at the mouth. Have also considered the 22 Cooper but already have one and would rather have something for which I can make brass myself. I have tried and failed to make 22 Cooper brass.
Another cartridge I am considering I will call the 30 Special. It is formed by running a 38 Special case FL into a 7.62 Tok die. It forms a very handsome little 30 cal bottle neck on the 38 Special case.
I would have to go full custom on the 30 Special on both reamer and dies. I already have the 22 Squirrel dies, and I already have a 22 Cooper reamer.
Maybe none of these and just go with a 32 S&W long. I don't know yet but its fun pondering. I have for the longest time wanted to try a 25 Hornet but then you have the thin brass thingy. I have my eye on a set of dies for a 25K Hornet of which I have never heard. Sounds interesting though but then to keep it simple there's the 25/20 WCF.
So this is my current dilemma and will be thankful for all input.

Bullshop,
You never said what kind of 'Small game' you were thinking of?
As a 'walk around' gun I understand you want to keep it reasonable in weight. I do know one of my 1915 Stevens Favorite actions with Butt-stock but without barrel weighs around 1-1/2 pounds so I suspect the '44' would weigh around twice that in the same condition.
Squirrels and Rabbits for "Pot Meat" reportedly have been taken with .22 LR, 25 Stevens, and 32 Long with out destroying most of the meat.
Or are you looking for something for larger animals?
You will need to consider what weight and length of barrel to use as it should balance the Butt-stock and action so it will carry comfortable gripped either at the 'small' of the butt-stock or by gripping the Fore-end.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Further on the Cartridge selection process:
I received an order of sample 25-20 SS basic Cases from Buffalo Arms and they measure as follows;
Body diameter = .315" at base and .312" near the mouth.
Rim diameter = .375".
Rim thickness = .048".
Mouth inside diameter = .295".
Derived Neck thickness = .0085".
Primer pocket diameter = .175".
Primer pocket depth = .127".
Case length = 1.799".
Inside case length (mouth to web) = 1.538".

I believe these will make good parent cases for .32 Extra Long (both RF and CF) cases by trimming the length.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[bob208]

I have a 44 in .32-40 it has the lug on the hammer and the 7 o'clock extractor

[uscra112]

I have a 44 in .32-40 it has the lug on the hammer and the 7 o'clock extractor

Does it have a number stamped on the face of the receiver other than 44? Like 45 / 47 / 51 ?? That should be one of the high grade ones from 1894 to about 1900. Nice rifles, those. Some pics would be nice. But maybe on a new thread?

[bob208]

it is jus a plain grade. the bore is bad. I mite try to fresh it out to .33-40 like pope used to do.

[Chev. William]

Further on the Cartridge selection process:
I received an order of sample 25-20 SS basic Cases from Buffalo Arms and they measure as follows;
Body diameter = .315" at base and .312" near the mouth.
Rim diameter = .375".
Rim thickness = .048".
Mouth inside diameter = .295".
Derived Neck thickness = .0085".
Primer pocket diameter = .175".
Primer pocket depth = .127".
Case length = 1.799".
Inside case length (mouth to web) = 1.538".

I believe these will make good parent cases for .32 Extra Long (both RF and CF) cases by trimming the length.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

I got to thinking about this Basic case and its potentials in the '44' action.
I wonder how a .32 CF cartridge using the 25-20SS basic case trimmed to 1.790" and an Accurate mold 31-090A or 31-090S bullet would work in a 1:10 Twist barrel of around 24 to 28" length?
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Best Regards,
Chev. Wiliam

[uscra112]

It would more or less recreate the .32 Wesson from which the .25-20 was derived. I've looked at that myself, and fell down on the question of how to throat the chamber. If anyone knows of a throating reamer that cuts a .312" bullet seat, post the source.

The other thing that ought to be tried is a 7mm version, to recreate the cartridge Rabbeth tried that before he went to .25 caliber.

[Mk42gunner]

I got to thinking about this Basic case and its potentials in the '44' action.
I wonder how a .32 CF cartridge using the 25-20SS basic case trimmed to 1.790" and an Accurate mold 31-090A or 31-090S bullet would work in a 1:10 Twist barrel of around 24 to 28" length?
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Best Regards,
Chev. Wiliam
I think it would be an awfully fast twist for heeled boolits, along with excess powder capacity. How fast are you planning to push them?

While I don't totally buy into the whole "over-stabilized" thing, (to me a projectile is either stable or it isn't). I have seen qualification scores drop when using M193 ball in 1/7" twist M-16 A-2 E-3 rifles compared to M855 ball. I do think projectiles can be spun too fast for their strength, but that isn't really over stabilizing them.

Robert

[Chev. William]

I have read some about the M855 bullet but am unfamiliar with either it or the M193 Bullet complete characteristics. And I believe the rifle you mentioned started out with a 20 inch barrel and now comes in a variety of lengths from 12 inches up, depending upon the particular designation.
Interesting effect of the 1:7 Twist barrel between the two bullets. What are their weights?

I am wondering about a 90 Grain bullet that would leave the barrel at around .308" max Diameter after passing through the throat and the Long barrel.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Mk42gunner]

M193-55gr FMJBT, M855 FMJBT with steel penetrator thus longer than a lead cored 62 gr. The rifles were 20" A2's that retained full auto capability, standard Sea Bee issue. Same Battalion qualifying on three different sets of rifles on two deployments and one home port.

I think a fairly easy way to see if the idea is feasible would be to load some in a .30-06 at various velocities with reduced loads. Most .30-06's have your desired 1/10" twist. Might be worth a try before investing in a custom chamber reamer.

Robert

[Chev. William]

The, I believe, 1:10 twist came with the .300 Winchester Magnum chambered Winchester 700 (Correction: Model 70, not Model 700) "takeoff" used barrel. So I am hoping it will work with the heeled Lead bullets I mentioned at the relatively 'slow' MV I figure the Stevens '44' action is good for pressure wise.
By my measurements and calculations, I will need to remove about 2.700" from the breech end of this barrel to remove the 300 WM chamber which should leave about 2.6" to cut the new '44' tenon and Frank de Haas' book indicates I only need 1.575" for that so I would about 1" left to 'play' with.
As to loading 30-06 with the bullets and the 'super light' loads, I think that would yield erratic ignition and the chance of a bullet stuck in my M1903A3's barrel. Not something I want to happen; this is the same rifle my father and I both used in CMP 'club' competition back in the 1950s and 1960s both before and after I was gone on Extended Active Duty with the Navy.

He was Good, I was Learning. Some Good memories of that time frame (memory of a 'club' shoot at a range by Whiteman Airport in Pacoima, CA before the 'range' was moved from near the south end of the runway up to a spot on the hill south of the Old, closed, 'east west' runway that currently is 'home for a whole bunch of rental hangars. Even that range closed down after the housing was built up on the side of the hill away from the airport. Later it was redeveloped by the County and they dug out an old 'anti-aircraft' emplacement reinforced concrete base,an ammunition bunker, and some 'narrow gauge' railroad track for moving ammo between bunker and emplacement. The area is now two 'industrial lots' about a third up the hillside that are 'leased' by Arc Machine Company, a builder of welding machinery.

The original 'range' spot toward the South end of the runway, was converted initially to a Shot gun range (Golden Valley Gun Club) then before the 1984 Olympics, was redeveloped into an aircraft parking ramp with portable rental hangars on it. At the time they found a series of really big reinforced concrete 'footings' they were not expecting so just raised the level of the ramp to cover them. I am told the contractor tried to break one but it broke the 'ripper' tooth of his largest Cat Tractor, so the county let him cover and pave at the higher level.
That ramp currently holds the Hangar my friend with the Lathe and shop rents so it is a good result.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[uscra112]

4 to 6 grains of Bullseye with a 115 grain .32-20 bullet was a common "gallery load" for the .30-06. Without looking it up, I believe that they had a round-ball version of that load, too. I played with that kind of load in my old .35 Remington years ago, using round balls. Bullseye always lights, even in such small charges, and without filler. I used a 1.5 grain tuft of kapok anyway. It seemed to reduce the velocity variance some. I have a way of slugging barrels that involved deliberately sticking the bullet in the bore, and you have to get down to 1 to 1.5 grains Bullseye in the .30-30 case before the bullet fails to exit.

[Chev. William]

OK, That is reassuring. So I could use Bullseye with reasonable assurance it would ignite and my bullets would not stick in the bore, even with the light loads hoping to result in the low velocity I am planning for the '.32' rifle barrel.
Thank you for that information.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds like you have some good memories, too bad the ranges are gone.

I understand having a barrel and wanting to make use of it; I still have the .30-06 barrel made by ???? that I took off the K98 I turned into my first .35 Whelen. The plan is to one day use it either as a liner or a stubbed barrel in .32 S&W Long or .32-20 on a single shot shotgun. One of these days I will get it done, I just seem to acquire more urgent projects before its time comes.

Robert

[Chev. William]

Memories are Good to have, the stories are enjoyable to share, and the knowledge is useful to all.
Re: the Ranges being gone. Yes "Urban encroachment" doomed several shooting ranges around the San Fernando Valley and Soledad Canyon / Sand Canyon areas of Los Angeles City and County.
Noe Days there are houses, apartments, and Businesses built up around the borders of Whiteman Airport and the County Fire Department Aviation Base with a Local Park against the East Border. We still have an Airport because the County flys Heavy Helicopters off their side of the property.
The Current project at the Airport is to improve the three Vehicle Access Gates and their surroundings. The County removed the old Restaurant/bar operator to allow 'Rennovation' of the space and has now decided not to open it up for another lease. I think they want to move the possible 'restaurant' to a second floor space along the outside east border that has limited parking space and no Transient Aircraft parking area, most likely to kill the possible 'eatery' idea. The Old site is a converted Cinder Block structure about in the Middle of the Airport property with a nice shaded lawn area with picnic tables and benches for airplane watching and has adjacent Transient Aircraft parking AND the fueling Island near by to add viewing interest, along with a vehicle parking area big enough to handle a good crowd of attendees for Airport Meetings. My late wife and I had our Wedding Reception in the old Restaurant and it is still a happy memory.

Now back to the Thread Topic:
What has the OP decided to make his Action into as a Rifle?
Best Regards,
Chev. William