44 mag and Titegroup load problem

[Wickyd]

I recently picked up a 29-2 ,4inch Smith and Wesson.
Loaded some 240 grn hard cast bullets from Georgia Arms, 9 grns of Titegroup and a WLP primer.I was looking for a load around a 1000fps.
When I took the Smith out last week it shot well for about 10 rounds then I had one just go poof and a little sizzle.I had one years ago where I had missed putting powder in a 357 mag from a Green Machine so I only had a pop with that one and the bullet had lodged between cylinder and forcing cone ,locking up the gun.

I checked the smith and cylinder was locked from bullet stuck in gap.
Knocked bullet back into casing and cleared weapon.Casing was extremely black all the way to rim.I wiped gun down reloaded and shot 6 more rounds no problem.
Let a shooting partner try the gun and on first shot it did the same thing.
I thought I could have missed powder on one or maybe I had a piece of walnut shell stuck in flash hole but not 2 out of about 20 shots.

I had been real careful on loading these used cleaning station on all primer pockets and cleared all walnut shell stuck in flash hole.(getting away from that)

When charging shells I had put five in loading block ,dropped powder into those 5 visually checking then seating bullets with medium crimp.
I came back home and checked each remaining round by shaking and hearing powder.

Took the gun back out Saturday and it happened 5 more times out of 30 shots some were on first shot so I ruled out bullet movement from recoil,But recoil was not bad anyway.

Just wondering what ya'll think could be happening .I am getting ready to pull the last 40 I had loaded.
Darrell
I have loaded some 45 LC with same jug of Titegroup no problems

[Tatume]

Your load is one grain less than maximum according to the Hodgdon people (http://www.hodgdon.com/ ). Your description does not include any information that would point to a malfunction. I think you are right to pull the bullets and examine the components. I suspect contaminated powder, but you can't tell with examining it.

BTW, I would expect closer to 1200 fps than 1000.

A long shot might be to look at the hammer spring. If it has been replaced with an extremely light spring, it could (like I said, long shot) cause a weak firing of the primer.

[44MAG#1]

Take the load out and when you get ready to fire hold the gun up vertical shake the gun so the powder is back against the primer cock the gun and slowly lever the gun out aim and fire. If the loads go off and do okay than the load density is wrong for the powder no matter what Hodgdons says. Also try a few with the gun held down shake the gun and cock it and bring the gun up slowly and fire. See what it does then. You may be surprised at how poorly the load performs.
It wont hurt to do this and will prove that load density is too low.

[Wickyd]

All primers are hit pretty hard so I am ruling that out but will keep an eye on future ones
I have loaded some 45LC loads at 8 grns Titegroup (same pound jug)with a 250 grn bullet and WLP primers the day before I loaded the 44 mags. I have not had any issues with those but I have only shot about 20 total of those.
I was wondering about position,I always try to start from a muzzle down position which would have the powder away from the primer then followup shots are either start from muzzle down for slow fire or muzzle dropping back to target from more rapid fire.
the misfires seemed to mostly occur from the first couple of shots.
I had read from Google searches Titegroup is not position sensitive.
Should I just pull all and go to Win 231 it would be close to same powder charge or try some COW or Dacron to see if that solves the problem.
Darrell

[Wickyd]

Take the load out and when you get ready to fire hold the gun up vertical shake the gun so the powder is back against the primer cock the gun and slowly lever the gun out aim and fire. If the loads go off and do okay than the load density is wrong for the powder no matter what Hodgdons says. Also try a few with the gun held down shake the gun and cock it and bring the gun up slowly and fire. See what it does then. You may be surprised at how poorly the load performs.
It wont hurt to do this and will prove that load density is too low.

I am going to keep a few of these loads and try this next time out.
thanks
Darrell

[gray wolf]

Just as an aside, I have fired 100,s of 44 mag with 240 grain lead bullets and 6 grains of titegroup with no problems of misfires of any kind. Never gave a thought to how the powder was laying in the case.
Don't know but could it be the powder or the primers ? Seem the power was check before the bullet was loaded.

[44MAG#1]

There no powder that is position sensitive if the density is high enough. If you would use a magnum primer that may solve it. My experiment is easily done, Wont hurt anything and will prove if the load density is enough or not
For an example in the 45 Colt. I used a 13.5 gr load of HS-6 with a 215 gr cast. The Speer book said 12.5 was max for SAAMI spec on a 200 gr jacketed.
While shooting I would notice a hollow sound to some of the rounds. Not much but some. I shot some over the chrony with the with the powder forward and some with the powder against the primer. There was over 100 fps between the two averages. When shot normally the average was almost between the two with ES and SD within reason. But the load WAS/IS position sensitive.
What if I had been using 11.5 or 12.0 gr with even lower load density?
Do what you want. I am just stating what I've found with some loads.
Take it or leave it. Believe it or not.

[RED333]

There no powder that is position sensitive if the density is high enough. If you would use a magnum primer that may solve it. My experiment is easily done, Wont hurt anything and will prove if the load density is enough or not
For an example in the 45 Colt. I used a 13.5 gr load of HS-6 with a 215 gr cast. The Speer book said 12.5 was max for SAAMI spec on a 200 gr jacketed.
While shooting I would notice a hollow sound to some of the rounds. Not much but some. I shot some over the chrony with the with the powder forward and some with the powder against the primer. There was over 100 fps between the two averages. When shot normally the average was almost between the two with ES and SD within reason. But the load WAS/IS position sensitive.
What if I had been using 11.5 or 12.0 gr with even lower load density?
Do what you want. I am just stating what I've found with some loads.
Take it or leave it. Believe it or not.


Yep, I use titegroup in all my pistols, in my 44 SBH I use Mag primers.

[bobthenailer]

My go to 44 mag load with TG powder is 7.0grs @900+ fps, ive shot tens of thousands of them through at least 6 different 44 mags excellent accuracy and no problems with any of them.
with TG powder i use std primers in the 44M ! even with 9.0 grs of TG in the 454 casull @1,100 fps

[robertbank]

From what you described with the one bullet sticking in your forcing cone/cylinder gap, I suspect you had no powder in the case and it likely is the cause of your problems. What press are you using? A blackened base on the bullet suggests to me all that went off was the primer with little to no powder in the case.

While unlikely, you might have a bad batch of powder or powder that has been compromised.

Take Care

Bob

[rintinglen]

Are you visually checking the powder level in the cases each and every time? Are your cases the same length? If it is working fine in the 45 Colt, but not the 44, it seems unlikely that it is the powder, unless the contamination occurred between the two loadings. Could you have accidentally dumped a slow burning rifle powder in the wrong container? This is perplexing, since I and many others have used Titegroup with no such problems. Perhaps loading a dozen or so while weighing each charge may reveal the difficulty.
44#1's suggestion is a good one, I'd also look at my crimp and try to make sure they are all pretty much the same.

[robertbank]

I am really thinking it might have something to do with the powder measure. The bullet stuck in the forcing cone/cylinder gap with black soot on the base is caused by only the primer going off with no powder in the case. Yes it has happened to me and others I know of and have shot with. As the last poster indicated very unlikely the powder itself.

Take Care

Bob

[44MAG#1]

May be very unlikely it's the powder. Because it isn't the powder but what is happening to the powder. But a lot of the times one does all kinds of investigative work to later find that the cause of a problem was a very unlike cause so they overlooked it.
I've never had any problems with A lot of powders but if I do I am going to look at as many possibilities as I can.

[Char-Gar]

I only have a couple of observations about the subject at hand, to wit;

1. Place your charged case in a loading block and inspect the powder height with a strong life. Thus endeth any light or no charged cases.

2. 1,000 fps loads in the 44 Magnum are propelled by Unique powder about 8.5 to 9 grains worth. This has been ordained from on high, and to mess with this is to risk bad karma, as you found out.

[DougGuy]

LMAO Charles that's a GOOD one! hehe...

I got to where I weigh and trickle all my straight walled cartridges, .44 Magnum and .45 Colt. It's not that difficult and it rules out any inconsistencies from the powder measure. This way I know if I am sighted in at X yards with a 300gr RF boolit, and I pick 6 of those loaded rounds to hunt with, there is zero question in my mind where my point of impact will be. There is also zero chance of having a squib get by me on the bench..

Also, the OP didn't mention seeing unburned powder in the case after he drove the boolit back into it, or seeing unburned powder all over the gun, so I'm like Robertbank, all that was in the case that could burn was a primer. If there was powder all over the place with no apparent explanation, i.e. walnut hull in there somewhere, then either the primer or powder is contaminated.

[robertbank]

Well it has happened to us all at one time or another. When loading copious amounts of ammo for pistols cartridges on a progressive press it is easy enough to make a mistake. The minute you think you are immune to this malady will be the minute you do screw up. If you load enough rounds over a long enough period of time something may go wrong. Loading rifle cases one at a time is easy enough to check particularly if you are using a single stage press. Loading pistol cartridges in volume is a whole different kettle of fish where it is much easier to make a mistake even with this best of care.

Some presses are easier to screw up on than others. Dillon, RCBS and Hornady not so much. About 90% of all IDPA competitors use Dillon equipment for a reason.

Take Care

Bob

[BeeMan]

The OP says he checked for presence of powder by shaking every round and heard it. The same thing happened again.

What about case neck tension? Inadequate bullet pull combined with the WLP primer could have pushed the slug clear of the case before pressure rose enough to cleanly burn the powder. That would explain the sooted case.

[robertbank]

Winchester large pistol primers are used for standard and magnum loads are they not? The ones we buy up here are. I have never seen Winchester large pistol primers marked as Magnum primers. The box says for "Standard and Magnum Pistol Loads". It doesn't sound like there was much if any powder in the case. I don't know what he heard when he shock the cartridge. I just shock two cartridges loaded with 2.8 gr of Titegroup and 5.1 Br of 231, in .40cal and the powder made no sound at all. He may have better hearing than I do but his must be pretty sensitive. There isn't much room in a 40 cal for the powder to move and shake. There is more room in the 44mag to be sure so I shock a couple of 44 mag rounds and heard nothing either.

Take Care

Bob

[Wickyd]

Finally got to pull the bullets on the 40 rounds that I had not shot.
Looks like I screwed things up pretty good .
I found 2 rounds that did not have powder.
Will now need to reevaluate my loading procedures.
This is highly embarrassing
Darrell

[robertbank]

What press are you using.

Anyone can get lost just takes a damn fool to stay lost. Learn from the experience and move on. You are not first to load a round with no powder and neither was I.

Take Care

Bob

[Wickyd]

I use a RCBS rockchucker
Think I am going back to one at time instead of putting powder in 5 then putting bullet
Darrell

[robertbank]

If you don`t have one buy one of the cartridge trays. You are loading on a single stage press so just do each steo. as in:

1. Resize and decap
2. Prime each case
3. Add powder to each case
4. Seat each case with a bullet & crimp.

After you do your powder dump check each case while the cartridges are standing in the tray before you seat the bullet. What are you using for a powder measure.

Take Care

Bob

[C. Latch]

I see a lot of people refer to using a case loading block.

What's the reasoning behind it being dangerous to charge one case, inspect it, seat a bullet in it, then move on to the next case?

[robertbank]

By breaking down each sequence there is less chance to make a mistake from what I can tell. I load all my pistol cartridges on a progressive press and do not use a block but for rifle I do use a single stage Rockchucker and use a loading block. for me it just makes the whole process easier for rifle.I seldom load more than 100 rounds of rifle at a time. It is not unusual for me to load 1,000 pistol rounds in one sitting. Sometimes more.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

I see a lot of people refer to using a case loading block.

What's the reasoning behind it being dangerous to charge one case, inspect it, seat a bullet in it, then move on to the next case?
Use a block and charge all cases in one step, then inspect each and every case for powder and how much.
My friend did one at a time and his son said something to him, he forgot the powder and seated a boolit. It stuck in the bore and the next shot blew the gun.
I use a block even if I only load five for a test.

[FrankG]

Ive always used a loading block and done all in stages only straying from tried and true twice. I tried using a RCBS Piggyback and a Dillon progressive and had either short charges or no charges using both . Don't know how or why . I didn't care why as I was selling them . Just knew that with my old system I could look in each case to confirm charge and its height compared to the others.
After all casings are charged I have a penlight that I look in all casings in shell block before moving on.
When Im reloading Im never in a rush . It takes as long as it takes.
Others use the progressives with no problem . I have a routine using the load blocks and it has worked all these years so guess Ill stick with it :)

[robertbank]

Frank works if you only load a few rounds but I play IDPA and IPSC . Loading 1K - 2K rounds at one session on a single stage is not going to work for me. I load around 15K of pistol rounds per year. There is no reason for a Dillon press to give you anything but well loaded rounds.

What it really boils down to is what your requirements are and getting quality equipment to meet those needs.

Take Care

Bob

[GP100man]

It`s called batch loading & I check at least twice if not 3 times before seating .

Yes I`ve done it , did`nt get hurt learnin, so I`m thankful & changed my err way.

GP

[MtGun44]

+1 on 9 gr of Unique as the REAL SOLUTION. :bigsmyl2:

Bill

[Changeling]

Use a block and charge all cases in one step, then inspect each and every case for powder and how much.
My friend did one at a time and his son said something to him, he forgot the powder and seated a boolit. It stuck in the bore and the next shot blew the gun.
I use a block even if I only load five for a test.

The above is a fact to go by. I have been using this method since I started reloading! Not just for revolvers, but rifles also.
If one has a good loading block be it revolver/rifle, once the cases are ready for reloading, put in your powder, by weight, scoop, whatever.

Store/put in your loading block. Once this step is completed and BEFORE going furthere tilt your loading block in some strong light. You will see that most of the cases will appear tobe at the same level. The case block and "Light" will show if one case is OVER/UNDER in its contents.

[Tar Heel]

Suggest getting a loading block which holds 50 cases. Charge cases in a specific pattern, rotating block to get at the last 20 or 30 cases. Keep count every time you throw the powder charging handle. When all cases have been charged, set loading block on bench and shine a light over the block and physically look at each case. I also scan slowly from top to bottom, then left to right. Your eye will pick out a case without a charge or one with a double charge. This process may seem slow and cumbersome but I have not had a double charge or no charge in over 35 years of handloading. Of course if using a Dillon or other progressive, keeping an UNINTERRUPTED pattern is critical. Any burp in the process should necessitate a complete start over by removing any cases on the tool head and commencing the run again with a single new case. Don't compromise. I still have 10 digits on my hands.

Works for me.

[rintinglen]

Suggest getting a loading block which holds 50 cases. Charge cases in a specific pattern, rotating block to get at the last 20 or 30 cases. Keep count every time you throw the powder charging handle. When all cases have been charged, set loading block on bench and shine a light over the block and physically look at each case. I also scan slowly from top to bottom, then left to right. Your eye will pick out a case without a charge or one with a double charge. This process may seem slow and cumbersome but I have not had a double charge or no charge in over 35 years of handloading. Of course if using a Dillon or other progressive, keeping an UNINTERRUPTED pattern is critical. Any burp in the process should necessitate a complete start over by removing any cases on the tool head and commencing the run again with a single new case. Don't compromise. I still have 10 digits on my hands.

Works for me.

A very big +1. I use the loading block for all my rifle and odd ball pistol loading. But on my Dillon, I rely on my routine--If I get interrupted, I stop, double check everything, then and only then proceed. Life's too short to load thousand round batches on a single stage press, but it requires constant diligence to avoid problems on a progressive. Reloading is one place where you don't want to take short cuts.

[Weaponologist]

Another vote for Loading Blocks....I use them when on my RCBS or Co-Ax..
On my Dillon 550 I just Clear the 3 or 4 rounds before I go to do something else, Then When I return I just start with an Empty press. Of course I leave the primer tube filled as is until I finish that caliber...
Also, As the others have said, We've all made mistakes the main thing is to learn from them. I've never had anyone here belittle me for asking for help.. There is great knowledge in the members of this form..

[44man]

Dillon makes the best but the operator can mess up. Just do not depend on the machine to catch a mistake.