New Boolit caster with some Problems Some help please?

[Buckshot Bowman]

Hello Lads,
I have been shooting for 50 years this year, I have been reloading for 20 years, and casting bullets for 26 hours.

I went through all the books I have and combed through this site and others to learn to cast, and I am defeated at this point. No matter what mould I use, all my bullets come out with pits on the surface and in the groove bands. I felt I needed to start casting for the obvious reasons, but I have fallen deep in love with big bore Buffalo rifles and buying bullets for them is out of the question on a pure money basis

I bought a number of nice condition moulds on ebay, all look fine even under hand lens. Lead I bought from same place dealers careful to buy no WW just lead from roofing sheets x ray rooms, really checked the sellers background and feedback. The lead all measured at 10 or below on my Cabine tree harness tester. The melt showed only a tablespoon of crud that looked like gray Kosher salt. I mixed 20 to 1 with bar solder also bought on Ebay.

I washed my molds three times with brake cleaner and wiped out with denatured alcohol. I don't have a thermometer yet, but set my RCBS Pro Melt a just under 800 to get a nice flow I preheated the molds on a hot plate and got them hot enough that it takes a six count for the sprue to frost over. I got past the wrinkled nose stage. but just about every near decent bullet I cast from a number of moulds are covered in pits both large and small. Some look like dust in the mold to grains of salt in the mold.

I have moved the mold as close as I can to the spout, tipped the mold towards me a bit to vent the air. and the bullets are as you see them. I am at a loss as to what I am doing wrong, as they sure don't look like the bullets I buy from Buffalo Arms.

The bullets are weighing out at no more than 2 grains in weight spread, and diameters all seem good. Bullets tested on the LHT says the mix is on average a 25-1 hardness.

take a look at the photos and if you have some advice or knowledge to share please do.

Thanks
Donald Bowman

[waco]

You either have a cold mold and or your alloy is not up to temp. Sounds like your mold is clean. I use hot water and dawn detergent to scrub the mold with an old toothbrush. The mold needs to be up to temp as well.

[Buckshot Bowman]

Waco,
The mold is smoking hot, Like I said it takes a count of six seconds for the sprue to frost and go solid
I pre heated them on a hot plate and run a propane torch over the sprue plate

I forgot to add that on the big round nose bullets they do stick a bit in the mold, with the exception of my Lyman .512 50 Cal mold, they fall right out and do show to be the the best of the lot, but do show the pits on the groove edges.

Thanks,
Buckshot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, like Waco says!

It also looks like there still might be some bad stuff in your alloy, but the lack of filling out the mold and leaving rounded points which should be square looks like a temp situation.

Don't know what you use for flux, but I have for years used old candles or canning wax and it has always worked just fine.

Now, don't throw out the idea of using Wheel Weights. I have done almost all of my casting with WW almost all of which has been without additions of tin or other alloys.

Millions upon millions bullets have been successfully cast of WW.

Need to watch out for the zinc in WW or more recent manufacture, but no need to be buying expensive alloy unless your into something like black powder silly wet.

My largest bullet is a 465gr Wide Flat Nose for my 45/70. I use a 50/50 - WW/lead alloy for that which makes the tin % even lower then the .5% commonly said to be in WW and they still cast great.

Good Luck and keep us posted as to the solution.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Buckshot Bowman]

Coot,
There is that problem with WW, as I shoot a lot of black powder. Plus in my small town the WW are all bought out by some unknown and there are none to be had, so I would have to buy WW already smelted from a dealer. I am waiting for a Brownells order with a Lead thermometer and two jars of Marveflux. On this batch I used a pea size piece of SPG bullet lube. Talk about smoke.
After a full stir, I only came up with that tablespoon and a little more of dark gray granules the size of Kosher salt..
I am wondering if the Bar solder I used is contaminated, or not enough tin?

Thanks,
Buckshot.

[birddog]

Buckshot,
Use a pea size ball of beeswax for fluxing your lead. When you have skimmed off any drost, through a hand full of sawdust in the pot and leave it. Ya, it smokes alot but the lead pours clean. Your lead should be about 725 degrees. Generally you just haven't got the lead fluxed well enough. Good Luck
Charlie

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Buckshot Bowman,

I like to put a 20" fan out front of my casting area - pulling air past me - and just let the smoke roll. As soon as the flux is hot enough, it then burns off and most of the smoke is gone.

I dip the candle or wax into the hot alloy, let it melt a bit then take my old spoon and stir it around the pot including the bottom of my cast iron (about 40 - 45lb size) and then skim off the imperfections.

Use vice grips on the spoon handle!!!!!

Using an OLD Coleman gas stove and the big pot with a Rowel bottom pour ladle and away I go!

I think that ladle is available from Rotometals.

AS Birddog says, 725degrees is a good range.

I'd likely be putting LOTS!!!!!! more flux into the mix then a pea sized portion. WAY MORE. But then used candles are cheap!!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[gray wolf]

Just use hot tap water and some Dawn dish detergent with an old or new tooth brush.
Do not get any mold lube ( if you use it ) in the cavities, A thermometer may help at this point.
You may also want to try Pine saw dust, I use the chips that look like they came from a fine planner blade
Kinda like bedding for a small pet ( mouse ) Don't look at the bullets till your done, just keep casting.
Your mostly lead mix may need ( does need ) more heat than WW metal that I cast at 650-675*
Stay with it, Hours into the hobby will turn into days of great looking bullets.

Sam

[yman]

Looks like you got stuff in your melt. What are you melting you lead in and are you using the same pot to pour out/dip out of? Maybe your getting slag off the side of the pots or your ladle. Fluxing more and cleaning your pot might help?

[TXGunNut]

Hang in there! When all else fails start over: give that mould another good scrubbing, re-flux your melt and crank up the heat a bit, you'll know when it gets too hot. I use a thermometer to cut down on the guesswork. Some moulds just won't cast a decent boolit on the first (or second, third) attempt but someday when everything is right you'll be looking at an empty pot and a nice pile of boolits.

[454PB]

Those big rifle boolits take a lot of heat, and a lot of cooling time before you dump them from the mould.

I use Marvelux, but most casters on this forum hate the stuff. I cast 3 different boolits for 45/70, the heaviest being 500 grains. Using temperatures around 725 degrees and Marvelux for fluxing, my boolits come out looking good, however the cooling time between cast and dump needs to be 15 seconds or so, not the 6 seconds you noted.

[country gent]

When fluxing be sure to really scrape the sides and bottom of the pot really stir the metal. use a tool that fits your pot a paint stiring stick will work but besure it is dry no moisture in the wood. Remember the mix will cool slightly when fluxing. Play with diffrent fill rates also.
As to the moulds, clean them with Dawn dish soap hot water and a tooth brush. Work over the cavity with a pencil eraser lightly, with a sharp scribe or awl lightly clean the vent lines sometimes some mold releases , oil or wax will build up in them plugging them. Then reclean with dawn and hot water. Dry completly.
I also use a ladle for bigger bullets.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

A lot can be said for washing/scrubbing molds and cavities with hot water and detergent; a lot of people do it with success. There are other rituals too like boiling in soap flakes/okum and putting molds in the dishwasher. I use iron molds and since they can be harmed by rust, I prefer to oil them after use. Well actually not oil, but a product called "Clenzoil" which is a hydrocarbon based concoction similar to oil. A problem with that is that the stuff has to be completely gotten out of the mold and cavities or else wrinkled bullets/raisins will occur. I effectively do this by soaking the blocks in acetone or lacquer thinner and then cleaning them with Q-Tips and then drying them with a hair dryer...then pre-heating prior to casting. Acetone and/or the likes of such is not only extremely flammable, but is toxic/nasty to breathe so do it outside or in a well ventilated place. It "cuts" and gets rid of anything with a hydrocarbon in it. Second problem/solution; if you are using wheelweight metal add 1-2% tin...that's all you need. It increases the flow-ability and makes sharper bullets. Keep the alloy fluxed and clean, and use adequate heat up to getting frosted bullets,which some people don't like the looks of, but it doesn't make a lot of,if any, difference in grouping. Make sure that your mold is adequately ventilated....trapped air makes funny looking bullets. The sprue plate should lie flat on the blocks and swing freely on its own weight...not sloppily. The pour stream should not flood the sprue hole(s) and prevent air from exiting. There should not be granules of any kind floating around as this/they will create "inclusions"/cruddy looking bullets and if the stuff is abrasive you don't want it in your gun barrel. Write down someplace what works with your mold...temp etc., as molds sometimes behave differently...and oh yes-practice until it is going the way you want it to or should. LLS

[Buckshot Bowman]

Thanks Lads,
I am going to wait till my Brownells order gets here with the Thermometer, I don't trust the thermostat on the Pro Melt. That and the fluxing, as I am getting conflicting readings on my hardness tester on different bullets which I think means that I am not getting a good alloy blend of tin to lead in the pot.

Thanks for the info, and I will get back to you next week.
Keep the advice coming in the meantime.

Thanks,

Buckshot

[hickfu]

I cast 540gr boolits for my 45-70 and like 454PB says, It takes more time on something that size, I run my pot at 725 and its a good 20 to 25 seconds before I cut the sprue and drop the boolits and they are beautiful! Here's one next to a 45acp
99746


Doc

[MtGun44]

Thermometer is unnecessary. If it takes too long to cool the sprue, you are too hot
FOR THAT MOLD and METAL, adjust rate of casting and pot temp to control this.

No specific number on your thermometer is going to fix any of this.

Bill

[Moonie]

Generally the thing that will give you better boolits is casting time. The more you do it the better it will get. Even with a new mold, the more it casts the better the boolits will be as it will burn off any cutting lubricant/oil that could be causing an issue. Also, if your not getting any frosted boolits you are not running too hot. I actually prefer them frosty myself.

I've never used a thermometer, sure it is a handy tool but not a requirement, once you get the hang of it you will be able to tell from how long it takes the spru to harden and flash over and how the bases look after you swing the spru plate out of the way. If you don't like the way the boolits look, melt them down and start again. I would recommend lead from the folks here, lots of great folks that will sell you wheel weight metal and other alloys that work perfectly. I wouldn't trust ebay for alloy, but that is me, and I have a large supply of '70's and '80's wheel weight metal.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Buckshot,

As you see above, there are a number of methods which all work for those that are recommending them.

One person recommends adding a small percentage of tin to WW while I consider it a waste of good money and as said cast great bullets with 50/50 WW/lead which would have an even lower % of tin. Still cast great.

Just this Ol'Coot's opinion, and yes I have used a bottom pour, but that is one of the first things that would go at my house.

Much too small! With my big cast iron pot, some of the issues such as alloy cooing with the addition of flux are simply NOT an issue due to the volume of the melted alloy in my pot.

That volume and my heat source are such that I can add back sprues and ingots of fresh metal and keep right on casting at a high rate. To the point that for handgun bullets I like to team cast with a partner using 4 - 5 molds all of 4 - 6 cavities.

So, you too will develop a method that works for you. Give it time!

However, as has been stated, clean that alloy - lots of fluxing and stirring - bump the temp up a bit and you'll get there.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[454PB]

A couple of other things to consider.......

The original post says he's "trying" to use pure lead. Pure lead, even with some added tin will not "frost" from too much heat.

When using a bottom pour pot, the flow volume needs to be controlled. Filling too fast can cause surface blemishes as seen.

However, it still looks like there's some contamination of the pot and/or alloy. You can never flux too much.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

[smilie=w: YEP, as 454PB says, FLUX!!!!!!!!!!! 8-)

CDOC

[44man]

Could be the RCBS pot. My friend has two and gets boolits that look the same. His lead does not get hot enough with the pot all the way up.
My old Lyman failed after time when the thermostat went. Before it failed, cycle times were so long lead would start to harden before the heat came back on.
For pure lead you need more heat and 800* is where I start.
To know what the pot is doing, you need a thermometer to check it.
You can have a hot sprue plate that keeps the sprue from hardening too fast but that has nothing to do with the lead you poured.

[grouch]

Buckshot, if it was me, I'd try scrubbing the worst of those molds with Comet or Dutch Cleanser. If scrubbing didn't work, I'd cast a large nail(bent inside the bullet so it won't spin) into a bullet, roll it with pressure in the comet on a metal plate, and spin it inside your mold cavity to try to improve the cavity surface. Hope this helps.
Grouch

[Love Life]

Looks like a classic case of dirty alloy.

[Animal]

Mr. Donald,

I'd like to congratulate you on your decision to start casting your own boolits. It sounds like you have done all of your homework and are well one your way. I, myself have only been casting for a very short time and have relied on the folks in this forum to help me interpret what I don't understand or what the book doesn't explain in great detail.

I noticed the picture in the middle and immediately thought about the alloy being a tad bit too cool. I use wheel weights and run my temps between 600-700. This may differ for you. Also, I ladle pour. I have great results with it. Some will swear by ladle pouring for match grade accuracy.

Several of the gentleman in this thread referred to your temperatures as the culprit. I feel they are giving you some pretty solid guidance. Each mold is unique, no matter how well they are mass produced.

[Love Life]

You guys and your thermometers and pids.

[Pilgrim]

You guys and your thermometers and pids.

Me too! Don't use a thermometer or PID. I have 3 Lyman pots. 2ea. 20#'s and one 10#. The pot I'm using for casting WW boolits is a 20# pot and may be getting old as I don't have to fuss with the temp control any longer. It's cranked full up and I cast using 2 iron double cavity moulds, alternating fill & dump. I return sprues and bad boolits as I go. I preheat the moulds on the pot edge as the alloy melts, and when all is ready AND the alloy has been fluxed again, I start casting. Generally my first boolits are good ones. I suspect you have small inclusions in your melt. Let set for a bit after melting, and then flux. I am one of the marvelux haters and used to use chunks of candle wax, about the size of a nickle and light the wax on fire while stirring if it doesn't light off by itself. This cuts down on the smoke from the wax. I'm now fluxing using sawdust from my table saw. Not sure, but the melt seems to be cleaner.

I think you have pretty much everything under control except that your alloy has inclusions that are showing up on the surface of your boolits. Flux the alloy again, and again if you have to until the inclusions are gone. FWIW....Pilgrim

[Love Life]

I picked up a large paper grocery bag of pinion pine cuttings from when somebody was cutting firewood. I don't use a thermometer. The lead melts...good. The lead pours...good. The sprue sets up nicely...good. The boolit looks nice...good. Boolit a little frosty...good. Boolit is crystalized and breaks...bad. Boolits wrinkled...bad. Sprue takes 30 seconds to harden...bad. Lead is not melted...bad.

The money I would have spent on a PID or thermometer went to better things. I'm not match shooting and I could really care less if my boolits aren't all within .1 grain of eachother.

However; everybody is different and does different things.

[Foto Joe]

Sometimes using a thermometer or a PID is like using Lee molds, some love 'em some hate 'em. I think that for somebody who's getting started in casting that a thermometer really isn't a bad idea. A PID on the the other hand is a pretty expensive gadget and if I've got a thermometer in the pot I really don't need one. It really is easier for a person new to casting to have that thermometer in the pot as it does away with guess work that other more experienced casters take for granted just 'cause they do have all that experience.

I think that the OP might have more than just one issue going on here. If the molds are clean, which I suspect that they are then the next area I would investigate is the fluxing as has been suggested. Although nobody has really pressed the issue I'd be inclined to add some more tin to the melt. Pure lead can be a pain to get decent boolits or balls out of. By adding another 1%-2% tin you aren't gonna hurt yourself hardness wise as tin doesn't appreciably add a lot of hardness. I would also question the composition of the "bar solder" from eBay. Does it contain silver or copper or is the secondary metal antimony as it should be. I think that I'd head to the hardware store and find some 97/3 (tin/antimony) solder so that I could start with a known quantity.

As far as using SPG for fluxing that's an expensive flux and there are more economical and equally effective methods. I personally use canning wax (Gulf Wax) but as you've read a lot of folks swear by sawdust. If you use some sort of wax I'd recommend dropping a stick match in after you put the wax in to ignite the smoke, just stir the whole mess in and skim off the boogers.

[Buckshot Bowman]

Hello Lads,
Thanks to all who rang in with advice and tips.
After washing and boiling my moulds, and fluxing with just about everything suggested, I started using Marvelux and a thermometer. I got a crystal clean melt and the temp for this alloy is best at 750 degrees.
The photos show the results so far. I am still having trouble with the Lyman 500 Gr RN and the 525 Gr Postell. They stick like glue in the mold half with the sprue plate and both have a pitted nose and an overly large mold line. I think the seller from Ebay cleaned them with a wire brush before selling them, as I am getting much better results on my other molds but these two all have the same pitted nose and small defect in the grease grooves on the seam lines

The other bullets like the Lyman 457191 and the 454191 both look pretty good and drop from the mould nicely. I am having some problems with the big flat nose bullet with sticking in the mold and some poor results in the grooves.

Take a look and see what you think, remember I am casting a 20 to one pure lead and tin mix here, and no WW, as I shoot a lot of black powder in these bullets
I am going to buy a bunch of WW from one of the members here as I need to start casting big bore revolver bullets that will need to be harder.

I did a smash test with a WW version from Western bullet and one of my 457191 bullets and both look the same after three hits from a framing hammer

Thanks,

Donald Bowman

The two big bullets with the pitting on the nose I don't think will have much accuracy, but I cast 50 each and will try them anyway.
I think those two moulds are going the way they came in and am going to invest in new molds from now on

[badbob454]

good job try leementing the nose only of your problem bullet molds , may straighten them out and release better