help identify a reamer

[Bullshop]

I have come into a 45 cal chamber reamer that I cant quite figure out for sure what it is. It says 458 express #2. Its not what I thought it was. Its fatter than a 458 mag but not quite as fat as a 460 Weatherby. Looks to be about .533" at the head and a big bottle neck rimmed case.
Has the improved shape body with fairly straight sides and sharp sholder. Anyone wanna run with that and see were it goes? Thanks Yall!
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

nobody?

[HABCAN]

Not to be a complete smart-ass, but I would suggest that reamer is probably for a Brit dbl. rifle cartridge called, believe-it-or-not, the .458 Express, #2? My Barnes' COW #7 does not list it, so that's just a not-so-wild guess, LOL.

[scb]

My guess would be a 450 #2 Nitro Express. Can you get a measurement from the cutting edge of the rim to the end of the case?

[Bullshop]

Habcan
I had no prior knowlage of such a cartridge and couldnt find it listed either. I went to the Barns book but couldnt find it listed, also went to the book of cart conversions but couldnt find a listing either. Do you know what case would be used for this?

SCB
I found a listing for the 450 #2 exp. but it is longer than the reamer I have. I will try to take some better measurments. Thanks
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

Are the 450 express #2 and the 458 express #2 the same?
I think I found a 450 Express #2 in the Ackley books and that one is too long to be what I have.
The only thing I can find that is close is on pg. 613 of Donnelly's book of cartridges conversions. It is the 45/125 Winchester express. This is the only one that is about the right length and has the right size haed diameter at .533" The problem is the taper and sholder are differant. I was thinking the #2 may be something on the order of an improver version. Maybe?
BIC/BS

[HollandNut]

The 458 No2 and 450 No2 are not the same ..

The 458 Express is a 3" rimmed ( I believe ) that originated in South Africa ..

The 458 No2 is apparently a variant of the 458 Express 3"

Performance is said to be on the Lott level ..

[45nut]

thats what I understood too Jack.

[HollandNut]

Ya wudnt wannna get shed of it , I dont suppose ??

The performance is on par wth the Lott and Ackley , will do upwards of 2400 fps with a 500 grain bullet ..

[Bullshop]

I dont know, it depends on what case is needed to form them from and what kind of action is acceptable to chamber one on. Cud ya clue me in?
BIc/BS

[crossfireoops]

Is that reamer perchance for sale?

GTC

[crossfireoops]

I don't have a book...but gut tells me that you get the case out of a .500 / 470 "Basic"

GTC

[HollandNut]

Yeah one of the NE roundds wud be my gut instinct as well ..

Awrite crossfire dont be cuttin' in front o' me on this puppy , if bullshop wants ta get rid of it .. :Fire:

[stocker]

Could that be one of the cartridges that John Buhmiller was using in Africa? I think he converted a P14 for these tests. One of the Gun Digests from years back had a fairly extensive article on his cartridges and the bullets he used for elephant, etc.

[HABCAN]

Well, at least we are all thinking along the same lines as to origin! Custom (maybe one-off?)design on a 'basic' old Africa caliber.

[twotrees]

Bullshop,

I posted this ? on another forum, to a friend that builds double rifles. He has access to stuff none of the rest of us do. Look for a post from Ron/ Rareeagle, what he says is gospel on those big boomers.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees ( Second time I have posed this ,??Hummmm??)

[twotrees]

Rick, not being a member, I can't post on that forum.

It does not sound to me that he has a .450 #2 Nitro Express.

I tend to think that it may be the Winchester round. The .450 #2 NE has a rim that is .080" thick. There are only one or two other cartridges ever built that have a rim that thick. .060" was considered "heavy duty". 5 seconds with a Vernier caliper would determine the depth of the rim cut in the chamber and IMHO will almost certainly show that it is not for this cartridge. The .450 #2 NE is 3.5" long, from the face of the rim to the front edge of the neck. It's easy to measure that dimension as well with a caliper.


TwoTrees

[HollandNut]

Well looking over my cartridge list and dimensions , the only fly in the oinment is if the .533 is an accurate measurement , then it's smaller than the NE's at that point , they are .545 and bigger ..

I have a query out elsewhere as well , and will reply here as soon as I get a response ..

[Mk42gunner]

Dan,

I don't suppose you hve an old 45 cal barrel laying around that you could cut a chamber in and then make a chamber cast of do you?

What is the case length and diameter of the rim?

According to Cartridges of the World, 8th ed. the 280 Ross has a base diameter of .534", rim dia of .556" with a case length of 2.59". Does any of this look familiar?


Good Luck figuring it out,

Robert

[Bullshop]

This might help.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010026-3.jpg

[scb]

I can't come up with anything with that .535 dia. If it was .553 I'd say it's a 300 ultra-mag wildcat. It is rimless right?

[Bullshop]

OK got some more info. I was wrong on the first measurment at the head. What I now get is .543". If you look at the pics you see a bit of a step at the rear of the reamer. I had thought that was to cut a rim recess but now after measuring again I see it is only .0013" larger in diameter than the head. That seem like it would not be enough for a rim or a belt so now I think this is rimless. The chamber would probably stop where the step begins which puts the length at 2.970" as best as I can measure.
Here is what I got measuring the important stuff,
rim/belt/step -- .5443"
head -- .543"
sholder -- .533" (not much taper there ha)
mouth -- .4835"
length -- 2.970" This is measured from the step you see in the pic at the rear of the reamer to the mouth.
Sorry bout the bum first measurment.
OK with this new info can someone suggest the proper case and what kind of monster action it would take? It may be more than I bargand for and can afford to fly with.
Lets see.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

Bump up, with some new measurments. Please dont give up on me fellers.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[scb]

Looks like maybe 404 Jefferys base case. As I'm sure you know on rimless cases you never run the reamer in to it's full depth. I think Guns and Ammo magazine had a similar wildcat made and called it a 460 G&A Magnum. You would have to expand the neck much larger than .458 than neck back down to take a .458 bullet because of the 404's long neck(like what's required to make 35 Brown Whelen cases). Frankly I wouldn't bother with it mostly 'cause of the cost of the brass, especially now the the Remington Ultra Mag case is now available at a much more reasonable cost. At last someone woke up and realized the the Only case that needed a belt is the .458. Steve
PS Check out http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---ft-worth---fine-rifle---719701-460-fw.shtml

[stocker]

You might think of some of the large belted cases with the belts turned off. Something like a 460 WBY maybe- (no texts at hand to refer to dimensions). I do recall someone playing with that concept.

[scb]

Doesn't answer the question but interesting reading.
http://huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/Ah450%20Bore%20Status%20Report%20Perspectives.pdf

[HollandNut]

Well I found one of the guys in SA who helped come up with the round ..

It's turned from 45 basic brass in SA , we can get that here as well ..

Claim same velocity as the lott with a good bit less pressure ..

Built around Brno/ ZKK602 , current CZ550 magnum action ..

Can fire Lott and Win Mag in the chamber as well ..

Still interested in it ..

[scb]

"Can fire Lott and Win Mag in the chamber as well .."
Don't know how, no belt, nothing to headspace on.
In fact base of reamer is larger dia. than dia. of 458 belt. 458 WM would drop thru 'til bullet is stopped by rifling.

[HollandNut]

My thoughts exactly , was jus' stating what this guy said ..

I have been extremly happy with my Lotts thru the years , but another "project" is intriguing ..

[Bullshop]

Thanks for tryin but that 45 basic ainta gona fly for this. That 460 G&A looks to be the right shape though. Nice rifle too but jes a wee smidgen outa my wallet range. I bought a house on 3 1/2 acres for bout that much when I first moved here.
With the fatter head numbers and what looks to be about three inch length I am going to look through my books again. This reamer looks like my 35 Whelen Imp. but way big. I like it, I like it alot!
BIC/BS

[stocker]

Bullshop: I did a search on A.R.'s big bore forum and came up with a couple of references to 458 Express 3". No data in the references though. You might do a post on that forum with your pictures and see what they have to offer.
Also, is there a manufacturers name on the reamer and guages? If so an inquiry there might give you some info.

[Bullshop]

Nope No manufacturer name on there, that would make it too easy.
I have a 1917 Enfield 458 that is just begging to get scratched out with this reamer, but then what?
Talk to ya next year
BIC/BS

[HollandNut]

Bullshop , I aint a smith and dont claim to be , but it sure looks like that raised portion at the left of the reamer , wud be to cut a recess for a belt ??

[Bullshop]

HollandNut
That is exactly what I was thinking at first but the total increase in diameter is only .0013". Do you think that would be enough for a belt? It didnt seem so to me. If it is for a belt then what belted case has a belt of .5443"? Also if it is for a belt then the length of the case will be substancially longer than 3". I am about to give up.
BIC/BS

[stocker]

Bullshop: I don't know squat about reamers and head space guages but if it was for a belted case wouldn't you expect to see belts on the guages? It also occurs to me that the brass might be a tiny bit smaller than the reamer dimension. I don't have a Cartridges of the World but wonder what the various 416 cases and the Schuyler cases measure.

[scb]

Exactly stocker. The gages pictured in post 20 are for headspacing off a shoulder. These are belted gages.

[HollandNut]

OK we're heading somewhere now ..

There are two 458's that I got crossed up somewhat , seems the things I herad put a bit of each one into one round ..

First there is a belted 3" 458

Then there is the Express , and I jus cked bullshops numbers against it and it has to be ..

The 458 Express is a 404 Jeff blown out to 458 and trimmed back to 2.67" or so ..

However I dont know the diff in the No.2 from the original ..

[scrapcan]

Bullshops post #22 reads like the specs in Donnelly's The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions (1987 copyright paperback edition) for the .460 G&A Magnum

Here are the specs from page 638

make from .404 jeffrey (bell. Rim case to 2.78" F.l size. May be necessary to anneal case neck.

case length 2.788"
Head diameter .544
Rim diameter .541 (you will not have this masurement as it comes from the parent case, my note)
Neck Diameter .485
Neck Length .452
Shoulder length 0.092
Body angle (deg's/side) .182
Rim thickness .049
Shoulder Diameter .528
length to Shoulder 2.244
Shoulder angle (deg's/side) 13.15
case capacity (gr's water) 119.99

If you need a copy of this page send me a pm.

[HollandNut]

only diff on the surface ( I dont have all the express dimensions here ) is the length , the express is 2.65-2.67" or so ..

[HollandNut]

Someone on another forum knows the guy who came up with the 458 Express and is putting him in touch with me ..

Cool ..

[stocker]

One of the guys on AR tells me the base diameter of the 404 is about .547 and the reamer should be a bit larger. Assuming he's correct , ( I have no appropriate text to check his statement against), is it possible you have the roughing reamer only and may still need a finishing reamer to get correct dimensions?

[HollandNut]

My drawing shows it at 545

[stocker]

Holland Nut: That's getting close but still a couple thou larger than Bullshop measured the reamer at. The 404 sounds most likely, probably just a matter of details.

[HollandNut]

Hope its the finisher , hopefully if it aint , by the time my project starts , I'll find one , which wud stink ..

The fella who came up with it is supposed to be contacting me ..