.22 Hornet subsonic!!

[Dewey von]

Hello everyone,

I have been casting bullets for a few years now, with a lot of help and info gathered from this forum. I even was successful playing around with a 124 gr. cast .380 acp, with some input from the folks here. Like most of you, I have been having a hard time finding .22 LR. Especially subsonic, that I like to shoot with a suppressor. So my next project is to try, and load a subsonic .22 Hornet. I have bought two Lyman molds, 44 gr, and 55 gr, and my rifle has a 1-14" twist so It should stabilize the heavier bullets. What I can't find is the Trail boss powder I need to fill the case enough for reliable burn, and still be subsonic. Does anyone know of an equivalent powder to Trail Boss? It needs to be the same burn rate, and also fill the cartridge case. Also, if any one has already loaded any .22 Hornet, and .22 Hornet subsonic, any tips, tricks, and info would be greatly appreciated.

[Larry Gibson]

It needs to be the same burn rate, and also fill the cartridge case.

Why?

Larry Gibson

[mikeym1a]

I was thinking a light charge and a smidgeon of dacron.

[Larry Gibson]

I was thinking a light charge and a smidgeon of dacron.

Don't really need the Dacron as a "smidgeon" of Bullseye will do the trick nicel for a subsonic load with either of the OPs' cast bullets in the smaller case of the 22 Hornet.

Larry Gibson

[robroy]

I've got a 225462 mold that I had modified by removing the gascheck shank. I've got some more work to do with the mold before I can cast with it. I did it because I wanted a plain based boolit to shoot at the velocities you're talking about. Also it was the worst of the 6 of this number that I have. The base was kind of mangled.
Will try some 231 after I weigh the boolits.

[Dewey von]

I was thinking a light charge and a smidgeon of dacron.

I read a few articles on using Dacron pillow stuffing. It does work, but could leave a little in the bore. In my case, I would be using a suppressor, and I would not want the Dacron to build up in the baffles.

[Dewey von]

It needs to be the same burn rate, and also fill the cartridge case.

Why?

Larry Gibson

If using a powder that only fills the case.. lets say... about 1/4. The powder can slide to the front of the case when loaded into the chamber. The result would be uneven ignition. Velocities would vary, and accuracy would suffer.

[Dewey von]

I've got a 225462 mold that I had modified by removing the gascheck shank. I've got some more work to do with the mold before I can cast with it. I did it because I wanted a plain based boolit to shoot at the velocities you're talking about. Also it was the worst of the 6 of this number that I have. The base was kind of mangled.
Will try some 231 after I weigh the boolits.

Will be looking forward to hear of your results Robroy! There is info on the .22 Hornet out there, but you've really got to dig. Any info I can get would be most helpful.

[BK7saum]

If using a powder that only fills the case.. lets say... about 1/4. The powder can slide to the front of the case when loaded into the chamber. The result would be uneven ignition. Velocities would vary, and accuracy would suffer.

I don't think you'll have any trouble with bullseye or a similar fast powder.

[telebasher]

I've been using 2.7 gr Bullseye with 225438 with good results on grackels, rabbits, squirrels etc. I really don't see the need for any other light loads as this will shoot under an inch at 50 yds easily if I do my part. Runs about 1160fps out of my 12 twist Handi Rifle with ACWW. I use a 415 top punch and it will make a nice little meplat which gives more shocking power but doesn't ruin but very little meat.

[Dewey von]

I've been using 2.7 gr Bullseye with 225438 with good results on grackels, rabbits, squirrels etc. I really don't see the need for any other light loads as this will shoot under an inch at 50 yds easily if I do my part. Runs about 1160fps out of my 12 twist Handi Rifle with ACWW. I use a 415 top punch and it will make a nice little meplat which gives more shocking power but doesn't ruin but very little meat.

Thanks telebasher! I'll give it a try, and I have a lot of Bullseye on hand!

[Larry Gibson]

If using a powder that only fills the case.. lets say... about 1/4. The powder can slide to the front of the case when loaded into the chamber. The result would be uneven ignition. Velocities would vary, and accuracy would suffer.

The 22 Hornet case has a very, very small volume. Most use SP primers to lessen the brisance. I don't think you'll find any "powder position sensitivity" with such a small amount of Bullseye in the 22 Hornet case. I base that on having shot several thousand such loads (225462s, 225415s and 225438s) through my own 22 Hornets including a suppressed one. Velocity does not vary outside normal ES and accuracy can be excellent.

I also used the same load as telebasher suggests. Suggest you try it before condemning it.

Larry Gibson


CORRECTION

telebasher's load of 2.7 gr Bullseye under the 225438 is an excellent one and one I use often. However, it is not subsonic. It runs about 1400+ fps. My subsonic load is actually 1.7 gr of Bullseye under that bullet. Suggest you start at 1.5 gr and work up until you get a "crack" and then back of .2 gr.

[nrc]

The 22 Hornet case has a very, very small volume. Most use SP primers to lessen the brisance. I don't think you'll find any "powder position sensitivity"

Larry Gibson

+1

Unique, universal clays, true blue, etc will get you where you need to be.

[kawasakifreak77]

Could try Green Dot. About the same burn rate of Trail Boss & a lot fluffier than Bulls eye.

[chsparkman]

Could try Green Dot. About the same burn rate of Trail Boss & a lot fluffier than Bulls eye.

+1: I use Green Dot for my light load .223's. Makes a very accurate squirrel rifle, but I do run them hypersonic, about 1500 fps.

[uscra112]

Don't leave out Red Dot.

Larry Gibson is 100% right - that small case just doesn't have position sensitivity issues. Neither does 7 grains of Red Dot in my .223, so far as I can tell.

[Bullshop]

So when someone says "subsonic " what actual velocity do you have in mind? I see that telebasher offered a load producing 1160fps but is that not above the speed of sound at sea level?
I live at just over 6000 ft above sea level so under standard or average atmospheric conditions what is the speed of sound for me, what is subsonic?
I am working on a boolit order for which the customer has asked me for subsonic load data for the 22 Hornet with the #225107 at 38gn. I have never developed such a load so need some teaching in this area. I guess I need to ask him what elevation he is at.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

"Subsonic" is going to depend and with reference to a bullet being "subsonic" so as not to "crack" the velocity is quite variable. The location above sea level, atmospheric pressure, ambient temperature are a few of the things that effect whether of not a bullet is "subsonic" and will not "crack". However the most often missed consideration is the shape of the bullet. The crack is determined by the speed of the compressed air moving around the bullet not by the actual speed of the bullet itself. Thus, with a given caliber, a blunt nosed bullet will "crack" at a lower velocity than sharper nosed one. I did extensive testing shooting WCs, SWCs, RN and SPs through a suppressed rifle. The Bullets "cracked" at from about 900 fps to just over 1100 fps depending on bullet nose shape. Testing was done at 200 feet elevation, 60 - 70 degree F, 60 - 75% humidity and 29.75 barometric pressure.

The assumption that the highest velocity all "subsonic" bullets are at a certain velocity (usually the speed of sound) is quite incorrect.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

Thanks Larry! So when someone asks for a subsonic load to get a correct answer they need to provide the specifics of bullet shape, their elevation above sea level, as well as expected atmospheric conditions?
So still when I see someone just simply ask for a subsonic load I have this big question mark. So where I live at 6000+ ft elevation on average will the crack come at a higher velocity?
I am beginning to get this picture that when I see someone ask simply for """ a subsonic load """ they perhaps have much to learn as I do.

[robroy]

Well I'm going to pick an arbitrary number (900-1100 fps) and not even use the term subsonic for the loads I intend to make. I ain't payin Uncle Sugar $200 tax and inviting him to check me out. I don't need a supressor. I just want something that will kill tree rats.

[BABore]

The faster the powder, the less you need, and the less noise it will make in a rifle bbl. I've went as low as 0.75 grs of Bullseye with a CCI 500 primer and 48 gr PB boolit. 0.5 grains just would barely get it out the bbl. 1.2 to 1.5 grains was where the load became accurate enough in my gun for 50 yard wabbits. No filler used. The load sounded like an adault pellet gun.

[FLHTC]

The faster the powder, the less you need, and the less noise it will make in a rifle bbl. I've went as low as 0.75 grs of Bullseye with a CCI 500 primer and 48 gr PB boolit. 0.5 grains just would barely get it out the bbl. 1.2 to 1.5 grains was where the load became accurate enough in my gun for 50 yard wabbits. No filler used. The load sounded like an adault pellet gun.

I'm considering something similar with Red Dot. I used Trail Boss and it was much louder than expected.

[telebasher]

So when someone says "subsonic " what actual velocity do you have in mind? I see that telebasher offered a load producing 1160fps but is that not above the speed of sound at sea level?
I live at just over 6000 ft above sea level so under standard or average atmospheric conditions what is the speed of sound for me, what is subsonic?
I am working on a boolit order for which the customer has asked me for subsonic load data for the 22 Hornet with the #225107 at 38gn. I have never developed such a load so need some teaching in this area. I guess I need to ask him what elevation he is at.

The elevation where I live is just under 3000 ft, but the rifle range is located SE of town down in a big creek drainage. Probably another 100-150 ft lower elevation. FWIW. By the way this load was recommended and used by Paco Kelley in an indepth write up about cast boolits in the Hornet.

[Larry Gibson]

I made a correction to the subsonic load with Bullseye in a previous post. The 2.7 gr Bullseye load under the 225438 is a sonic load.....an excellent one but still sonic.

Larry Gibson

[Dewey von]

The 22 Hornet case has a very, very small volume. Most use SP primers to lessen the brisance. I don't think you'll find any "powder position sensitivity" with such a small amount of Bullseye in the 22 Hornet case. I base that on having shot several thousand such loads (225462s, 225415s and 225438s) through my own 22 Hornets including a suppressed one. Velocity does not vary outside normal ES and accuracy can be excellent.

I also used the same load as telebasher suggests. Suggest you try it before condemning it.

Larry Gibson


CORRECTION

telebasher's load of 2.7 gr Bullseye under the 225438 is an excellent one and one I use often. However, it is not subsonic. It runs about 1400+ fps. My subsonic load is actually 1.7 gr of Bullseye under that bullet. Suggest you start at 1.5 gr and work up until you get a "crack" and then back of .2 gr.

Thanks a bunch Larry! I will be sure to try it out. I work away from home, and still have about a week to go. Can't wait to get home, and try it out!

[Whiterabbit]

I wish we could ship powder easily. Say, a regulation that says we can ship powder in 1lb qty or less if we box it in a certain way, etc.

My local shop got a shipment of TB two weeks ago and it no only hasn't sold out yet, but there are probably over a dozen cans on the shelf still. Id be happy to buy one and forward it to you. But that pesky Hazmat cost makes it a pain.

I'm thinking we need to find a low cost mortar shell or something, make a cast boolit plug, and ship 8 ounces of powder at a time via UPS as live ammo. free 8 ounces of lead too.

50BMG brass has potential, but not enough case capacity.

[Bullshop]

So if I had to produce subsonic ammo that would stay subsonic under all conditions would it be safe to say that 900 fps is max?

[starmac]

White rabbit, some guys that live in fly in only villages does exactly that. They bring the biggest cases they have to town, and fill them with powder and stick a bullet on top, so they can fly back home with powder. lol

[rhbrink]

I believe that the 22 target ammo is loaded to 1080fps and is considered subsonic. So I think that I would shoot for 1050 to 1080 for myself and call it good. There might be chart somewhere to help a guy figure the speed of sound under different conditions but don't recall ever seeing one.

RB

[Whiterabbit]

White rabbit, some guys that live in fly in only villages does exactly that. They bring the biggest cases they have to town, and fill them with powder and stick a bullet on top, so they can fly back home with powder. lol

I'm telling you, those Alaskans must know something we don't, with their 50bmg's loaded with 200 grain wad cutters!

(and a spent primer) :bigsmyl2:

[rhbrink]

Well I just went and looked up the speed of sound on the old puter and there is a formula! Imagine that! It actually says that Sea level doesn't mean chit, air pressure is a non factor, the only controlling factor that has any real value on the speed of sound is air temperature. With a handy plug in formula the speed of sound at 0* F is 1050.91, at 32* F it's 1086.947, and at 90* F it's 1149.27. There you go!

RB

[Whiterabbit]

more to it than that. According to books on ballistics, the transonic barrier is more than just a brick wall concerning sonic crack of bullet flight. There are accuracy issues as well. That bullets approaching the speed of sound are in transonic limbo as well, and it can be detrimental to accuracy in a big way. Thus for example, a long range shooter who wants to stay supersonic may want their bullet to be going much faster than 1150 fps when it's 90 degrees out. It's not just a brick wall from happy-fun stability to transonic breakdown.

Where are the limits? How much does this apply to 100% subsonic loads? Where does the grey area start?

Dunno. Needs an egghead bigger than mine to define. I bring it up as something to look for in regards to ballistic reference researching.

[frnkeore]

The speed of sound has nothing to do with sea level, barometric pressure or humidity, ONLY temperature.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm

Also, it will vary with the nose shape of the projectile, as the air has to speed up as it flows around the nose of the bullet. Large meplats increase the velocity at the corner of the meplat, next comes round nose and then ogive are last, the longer the ogive, the slower the speed increase.

So, to keep a bullet from "cracking" when it becomes supersonic, it needs to be done by actual testing and at a recorded temperature.

Frank

[Bullshop]

That's pretty interesting stuff. Completely changes the picture for me when I hear the term "sub sonic" now. The one right answer as with many things involved with shooting is, "it depends".

[rhbrink]

We're all going to turn into rocket scientists before we are done here!

RB

[Larry Gibson]

Well I learned something today. From the source listed above ; "Statement: The static air pressure p_ and the density ρ of air (air density) are proportional at the same temperature, because the ratio p_ / ρ is always constant, on a high mountain or even on sea level altitude.
Notice: The ratio p_ / ρ (static air pressure to air density) is really always constant." Amazing!

Thus when the ambient temperature is different the speed of sound is different. When the is low pressure the temperature is lower and visa versa with high pressure. Both of those many times affect the humidity also. Which all means if the speed of sound (in the air) is simply dependent on temperature! I've learned just how simple that is. However, as I stated before and as have others (including frank) it is the distance (hence the speed) the air moves around the projectile that determines when the crack will come, not the speed of the projectile.

Bullshop

I've tested numerous calibers up through .45 and found that your suggested 900 fps would be a fairly safe bet.

Larry Gibson

[wlc]

I try to load all my subsonic stuff to hit right at 1050fps or a tad less. I do shoot when it gets close to zero* sometimes and so far no crack. I think that if you wanted to be absolutely sure then 1000fps should work in most all circumstances.

[rhead]

It depends on if you want a load at a specific velocity or a quiet, accurate load. The velocity that you quit getting the crack will vary with the nose shape. The velocity where you get the accuracy will depend on your barrel. Once you find a load you like you may can tweak it to adjust the point of impact.

Always check for stuck boolits and if you stick one before you find an accuracy node try a different powder.

Pure lead boolit!
Fast powder!
Good lube!
No gas check
Check for stuck boolits!
Lots of range time.

The check list may be incomplete

[303Guy]

I've just found this old thread on sub-sonic 22 hornet. I did a search and rather than start a new thread, I'll just resurrect this one. It already has most of the answers!

So I'm having trouble with sub-sonic 22lr being too noisy with a silencer for my conditions. The idea of sub-sonic hornet allows me to load as slow as is needed for complete silence and hopefully still get decent accuracy. I've tried some of the available ultra slow 22 ammo out there and while some really are quite, well, the idea is to actually hit something smaller than an A4 sheet.

Enter the hornet. Now my problem is to cast boolits for it. I have a 55gr FN RCBS mold that I find very difficult to cast from and besides, it's a heavy boolit. It does shoot Ok from my rifle but at the time of testing I wasn't going sub-sonic. I have shot that boolit sans gas check in my mini 14 which I no longer have. They were Ok at subsonic velocities. The hornet has a much slower twist rate though. Thing is, I am not looking forward to casting then tiny boolits in that mold. I did make a smooth side mold which I think I still have and I also made a swaging die that I don't remember the purpose of. It does swage the RCBS boolit into a nice smooth side spitzer but it's still 55gr.

I have two powders I want to try, one being Clays and the other Trail Boss. I'm assuming that 1.4 gr of either will get me near trans-sonic and hence clear of the bore.

[Larry Gibson]

As I mentioned in an earlier post some years back it is the speed of the compressed air moving around the bullet that causes the "crack" not the speed of the bullet. Ergo a FN bullet will "crack" at a lower velocity than a RN or pointed bullet.

I have just recently suppressed my Contender 22 Hornet with a 10" barrel. A 225238 out of it will run right at 1100 fps before it "cracks" or "snaps" but a 225415 with snap just over 1050 fps.
266106

I use Bullseye with both powders. A chronograph is not needed as the velocity is irrelevant to where the bullet cracks or snaps. You can easily work up to the load you want. Simply start low and work up in .2 gr increments with 2 shots of each increment until you just hear a "snap" in front of the suppressor. The snap indicates the bullet is breaking the speed of sound but only for a few few then it slows sub-sonic and no longer snaps or cracks. Back off to the previous tested load that did not snap, load 10 shots of that to see if you get any snaps or cracks. If not you're good to go. If you get any snap or crack back off another .2 gr and test again til you get no snap or crack for 10 shots....that be the load.......

I use the chrono anyways just to satisfy my curiosity as the the velocity. However, as mentioned, the velocity is not the determining factor ...... the absence of any snap or crack determines the load for sub-sonic use.

[tejano]

Larry, do you use a gas check on these, given the low velocity?

[ReloaderEd]

a standard .22 long rifle is subsonic so I don't see the point of subsonic in a .22 hornet.

[tejano]

55 grains is a heavier bullet and sometimes you can’t readily find subsonic 22 ammo, but you have a good supply of small primers.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, do you use a gas check on these, given the low velocity?

Yes, because I cast the 22s soft, thus they are more accurate with GCs. I prefer accuracy over any savings w/o GCs.

[Larry Gibson]

a standard .22 long rifle is subsonic so I don't see the point of subsonic in a .22 hornet.

Because I can.
Because I like cast bullets.
Because I like quiet.
Because I don't reload 22LR.
Because I want to.
Because a 55 gr 225415 thumps vermin and small game better than any standard velocity 22LR.
Etcetera ad nauseum.....

Did I mention because I want to...

[MDC]

Does anyone else want to just go hang out with Larry

[444ttd]

yes, please!!!!!

[303Guy]

a standard .22 long rifle is subsonic so I don't see the point of subsonic in a .22 hornet.

Actually they are not. SV can be from 1050 fps to 1160 fps. At cooler temperatures the speed of sound is lower so even 1050 fps rounds make a crack. As Larry has pointed out, it's the speed the air is being forced around the bullet that is the problem. That translates into trans-sonic crack.

So the point of loading a hornet sub-sonic is to tailor the load to eliminate that pesky trans-sonic crack in cooler weather. 22lr can be had at below trans-sonic range but they don't shoot straight in my rifle. I have looked for 22 long but beside being hard to find they are still trans-sonic but just with a lighter bullet.

Just for interest, trans-sonic begins around mach .8 and gets serious at around mach .9 depending on bullet shape. Maximum trans-sonic crack is around mach 1.1 then above that the crack diminishes.


The velocity of standard-velocity . 22 LR rounds varies between manufacturers. Some standard velocity ammo may be slightly supersonic-around 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s), other ammo such as CCI Standard Velocity . 22 LR ammunition is rated at 1,070 ft/s (330 m/s).

At cooler temperatures, speed of sound is 1070 fps, i.e. mach 1. So mach .9 is 960 fps. Mach .9 of 1125 fps is 1012 fps so in normal weather conditions one wants to be no faster than that. Also don't forget that 22 ammo typically has a wide extreme spread. I was shooting 1050 fps ammo and some were just audible while others were loud! Someone measured the ES of that particular ammo and it was something like 60 fps or was it 80?

Thanks for your input, Larry. I shall go ahead and cast up some RCBS 55 gr FN and give them a try. I do have gas checks so I'll use them.

[uscra112]

a standard .22 long rifle is subsonic so I don't see the point of subsonic in a .22 hornet.

I'd agree, except for what I've just gone through over the last couple of weeks trying to rebuild my stock of CCI Quiet! Found a few boxes here and there, but had to pay scalpers' prices. (Quiet does the job for me, no suppressor needed.) Stocks of the "subsonic" brands seem to be better, but not much.

So creating a custom load in a CF cartridge looks attractive.

BUT:

I've got rifles in Hornet and .22 Lovell R2, but they all have 16-inch twist barrels. The Lovells do OK with a 55 grain SP but you have to drive 'em as fast as pressures will allow. How stable will a 55 grain cast bullet be at subsonic fps? Dunno. Do know that the 60 grain Aguila SSS is all over the map at backyard ranges from 16 inch twist .22 barrels; even my best tight-chambered single shots.

[303Guy]

Yes, because I cast the 22s soft, thus they are more accurate with GCs. I prefer accuracy over any savings w/o GCs.
I just so happened to have picked up a boot load of sheet lead. I'll add a little tin for fill-out and give that mold a try. Maybe it will work better than with harder alloy.

It's time my hornet came out of hiding.


Does anyone else want to just go hang out with Larry
Hell yeah!

[303Guy]

I'd agree, except for what I've just gone through over the last couple of weeks trying to rebuild my stock of CCI Quiet! Found a few boxes here and there, but had to pay scalpers' prices. Some of the "subsonic" brands seem to be better, but not much. Quiet does the job for me, no suppressor needed.

So creating a custom load in a CF cartridge looks attractive.

BUT:

I've got rifles in Hornet and .22 Lovell R2, but they all have 16-inch twist barrels. The Lovells do OK with a 55 grain SP but you have to drive 'em as fast as pressures will allow. How stable will a 55 grain cast bullet be at subsonic fps? Dunno. Do know that the 60 grain Aguila SSS is all over the map at backyard ranges from 16 inch twist .22 barrels; even my best tight-chambered single shots.
I just so happen to have a spare Toz 17 barrel lying around with a 14 twist. Never mind that, I have a complete Toz 17. And another model Toz but I don't know what twist it has.

[oldsalt444]

Vihtavuori N32C, aka Tin Star.

[bigdog454]

Too much info. I just took a boolit that I cast lubed it up and found a powder the my 22h like and experimented till it sounded right and hit where I was aiming. Also Look in some of the old loading manuals (from the 60's) for good info on the 22H and cast.
BD