Paperpatch apprentice.

[littlejack]

Good afternoon and Merry christmas to all:
I've been lurking around this forum for a couple of years and threading on the Handloads.com for the same. Both forums are very informative and very nice and knowledgable on both.
Maybe some background is in order. I'm 58 years. Been a fabricator/welder most of my working career. Might get to retire in about 7 years, the good Lord willin. Been reloading since I was 16.
I started PP'ing a few weeks ago. I was encouraged by a fellow worker and gun collector. He is also a real lover of the older BP cartridge rifles. I have Read Paul Mathew's book "The Paper Jacket". Very good reading. I would recommend it for anyone wanting to get started in PP'ing.
To begin with, I shoot a H&R Buffalo Classic in 45-70. I do want to get a Rolling Block in 45-70 in the next couple of years. If any of you fella's have the Rolling Block in 45-70, I would appreciate any information on best choice and price and accuracy etc.
I have two moulds of my own but have borrowed others. So far my favorite is the Lyman 457132 that I have I tried the Lee 405 grain HB which was my first. I could only shoot them to about 1225 fps then start to lose accuracy. I figured if that is all the speed I could get, I would go to a bigger bullet. I switched to the bigger 457132 mould which drops out at 530 grains with ww's.
The naked and pp'ed bullets both shoot well at about 1250 fps. I'm still expierimenting with upping the velocity a little with the pp'ed bullets. I do know that anything above 1400 fps, starts to get real uncomfortable in the light rifle. Maybe I should leave it alone, the velocities are on parr with the BP loadings and flat trajectories just are not going to happen with this cartridge. I did install a piece of lead filled copper pipe in the stock which helped to dampen recoil considerably.
I have been patching with tracing velum paper of .002 thick. I size the cast bullets to .454 and use two wraps. The dried patched bullets are coming out .459 to .460. I do not size the patched bullet as some do. I lube them, load them and shoot them. All I get is confetti out the barrel which is what is supposed to happen. No blowby. Sorry for the long post.
Jack

[Buckshot]

.............Jack, a Happy Christmas to you also. Lurking for a couple YEARS? Yessh, you don't rush right in do ya? :-)

If right, a paper patched slug will handle all the steam you could safely put behind it in the 45-70. I have a MAS36 converted to 45-70 and with an unpublishable load of 3031, a patched 405 grain boolit hangs right in there with a copper jacketed one.

.................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, Jack!

I came to the same conclusion about high-end loadings in my Ruger #1 x 45-70 that you did in your H&R, for the same reasons. My thoughts have been that setting pressure limits on that 7.25# platform are like setting speed limits on mountain roads--needless nonsense, 'cause limits are self-maintaining via turn dynamics or recoil impulse. Your shoulder blades will meet in the middle long before pressure causes safety issues in the #1/#3.

As for paper-patching in the #1, two words........UNMITIGATED DISASTER. Its "Government Ballseat" has very abrupt leade angle into its lands, and a man whose knowledge I respect (Bearwalker) opined that the abrupt leade was shredding and peeling back the patch and setting up a leaded barrel. AND HOW. That tube was bushed down to about 39 caliber in short order, and the rounds were tumbling downrange by Shot #6. The rifle's saving grace is that its leade angle that creates the bushed bore also does SUPERB cast boolit work once a conventional cast boolit fat enough (.459" minimum) gets launched downrange--righteous and repeatable 1.25" 5-shotters @ 100 yards. So, the temptation to run a reamer into the chamber and leade to create a gentler leade angle is stayed accordingly. IIRC, Paul Matthews mentions this step as a fix for paper-patching issues in his book.

[littlejack]

Fella's:
Thanks for the howdy's. Looking forward to learning all I can about the pp'ing.
I do prefer the smokeless., although i have tried the Triple 7. I just can't get over the crud in the bore and whats worse, is that one has to wash the inside of the cases. I could be spending more time reloading rather than washing.
My favorite smokeless is Re7. Burns real clean and fills the case relatively well. I have used 3031 in my R&D. It fills the cases better, but it quite dirtiy in my opinion. I have noticed though, the more of either one of these powders one uses, the cleaner the bore stays. One gets a more complete burn.
So far my most accurate load with the naked and the pp'ed is the Lyman 457132 bullet and 27.5 grains of Re7. I seat the bullet to a C.O.L. of 2.910. This is a very comfortable load to shoot.
Buckshot, I did pp some oof the Lee 400 grainers this evening. I will get to the range this week and test them out.
9.3, I do remember that in his book, Paul Mathews does touch on not having the pp ripped or torn when started in the bore or one will have exactly the problem that you have stated. Good shooting to you all.
Jack

[9.3X62AL]

Jack--

I'm sure there is a method or approach that can address paper patches in the abrupt rifling leades found in the "Government ballseat" and in many lever action rifles without resorting to reaming the throat. My own has been The Path Of Least Resistance--just use conventional cast boolits in such cases.

The real motivator for paper-patching is its ability to allow use of relatively soft alloys at higher pressures and velocities than possible under unpatched conditions. This enables expansion in game animals, a thing not reliable with the harder alloys required in unpatched boolits to guard against leading or gas blowby. I have had positive results in my CZ-550 using paper-patched Lyman #358430 cast of unalloyed lead and given two wraps of 9# bond paper. So I have done the routine successfully and repeatably.

Where I draw the line on any reloading procedure is on the time spent vs. results received equation, and on the repeatable accuracy possible with a given set of gymnastics. I add in here that a hard bullet of rifle-like sectional density (.250+) and of minimum .35" nominal caliber is likely "good to go" for deer as-is when cast of wheelweight metal or harder alloy, and given a reasonable cast bullet velocity (1500 FPS+). Soft-pointing or paper-patching a cast boolit likely yields its best "bang for the buck" in rifle calibers under .35", in my view. That said, I'm persisting with the soft-pointing bit for the 9.3mm, 44-40, and 45-70 rifles.

[StrawHat]

Fella's:
Thanks for the howdy's.
I do prefer the smokeless., although i have tried the Triple 7. I just can't get over the crud in the bore and whats worse, is that one has to wash the inside of the cases. I could be spending more time reloading rather than washing. Jack

Welcome,

Be very careful, the path you are treading upon is fraught with peril.

Well I remember the first paper jacketed bullet I rolled. It too was for a 45-70. At that time I had a Pedersoli Rolling block and tried to make it work by combining black powder propellant with smokeless powder experience.

Not such a good idea.

I have used 777 with some success. Not in a 45-70 but in a 405 WCF.

I have heard about but not tried GOEX Pinnacle. I hear it is a better semismokeless powder.

Advice on the rolling blocks...mmm... I think they are the better rifle compared to the Sharps. I have/had eight. Currently only two, both Pedersolis. One is still a 45-70 and the other is soon to be rebarrelled to 50-70. Thinks I like about the RB are the center mounted hammer, and the overall compactness of the gun. Also, boresighting is a snap.

The down side of the RB is that large action ring is not great with barrel mounted sights but I do not use those.

I think the big reason many are buying the sharps is the same reason S&W had record breaking sales of the Model 29.

I am not saying either one is bad, just I prefer the rolling block.

There are a few RB to choose from, Remington, Whitney, Pedersoli, and a couple of foreign government arsenals have made them at some time or still do.

Many of the old ones still have shootable bores if you can find the casings. If not, rebarreling is an option and not that difficult from what I have heard from a machinist and a gunsmith.

Good luck, keep us posted about what you get.

[littlejack]

StrawHat:
I think you may have misunderstood my previous post. I did not mean to imply that I loaded both the Triple 7 and a smokeless powder in the same cartridge. I was saying that I have loaded both but in separate cartridges.
Thanks for the input on the rolling block rifles. I had a chance to handle and examine the rolling block, the Sharps, the high wall and low wall last Thursday. I did prefer the roling block to the Sharps as you did. One of the reasons was as yours, the center mounted hammer. I also liked the more streamlined action of the rb as compared to the Sharps. I did not care as much for the high or the low wall.
It will be a while before I can afford the rb, so I will have a chance to look them all over.
Jack

[StrawHat]

StrawHat:
One of the reasons was as yours, the center mounted hammer.

It will be a while before I can afford the rb, so I will have a chance to look them all over.
Jack

As long as you have the time and like the central hammer, take a look at the Ballard rifle. Sweet!

[calaloo]

http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=160_211_223 . Some are pretty expensive but some would be a nice start for a home build or custom rifle.

Bill

[littlejack]

StrawHat:
The Ballards are definately top of the line falling blocks. Thats more money than I want or need to spend. I want a nice rifle for target and maybe some hunting. I can just see a person after spending 2500.00 to 3500.00 on a rifle and out hunting and falling with it in the rocks. One would protect it to the extint of looking like he had been in the ring with Mohammed Ali. But the rocks do tend to leave their mark at some point.
calaloo:
That is a good reference. I will research it further. A person could get one of the cheaper rb's with a bad bore and get it rebarrelled. Thanks for the tip.
I appreciate all of the reply posts fella's. Thanks for all of the help.
Jack