45 colt vs 357

[silverback13]

I have been looking at the 45 colt as a viable SD weapon. I do reload so that won't be an issue.

I love the redhawk but a bear to lug around so I have been considering a Taurus model 450--- 2inch snub 45 colt offered prior to the judge etc.

I don't like the idea that the 45colt has to make that cylinder gap jump in the judge.

this leaves me with the model 450 or tracker 4 inch. Both are considerable less carry weight than the redhawk or even the security six.


so I have been looking at 45 colt loads.

I under stand that the 357 is the smaller more energy transfer vs the slow bigger hole of the 45 colt.

What is the real world difference between the 158 grain 1250 fps and the 45 colt doing about 850-900 fps?

I am looking at recoil, muzzle, blast, penetration soft and hard (barrier), wound channel etc.

Next would be a comparison of the 180 grain 357 vs the 45 colt 250 grain. heck I haven't heard of one but what about a 200 357 traveling about the 900 fps?
__________________

[RED333]

45 colt can have KO power than a .357
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

[DougGuy]

There are several things wrong with this idea. First, Taurus has a lousy reputation here, that THEY themselves earned. Second, there are much better choices for SD than the .45 Colt. The .45 ACP +P loadings far outstep standard pressure .45 Colt loads in every category possible. The 125gr JHP in the .357 is a known manstopper, it was years ago and for many years running, the most lethal SD cartridge produced.

I am a BIG fan of the .45 Colt, it is my favorite of all calibers, I owned a Magnaport Big Bore Snubbie, S&W model 25 cut to 2 1/2" and magnaported, flawless action job, bluing that looked like the gun was wet, it was a fine fine fine carry gun. But it was big, and not as concealable as a 1911, OR a .357 on a medium frame. And with no +P loads, it was severely limited.

I think you are wasting your time with the pursuit of a Taurus in .45 Colt as an EDC. There are too many far more practical options to choose from in bullet performance, capacity, concealability, and reliability.

[bearcove]

Energy transfer is a mathematical fantasy.

45 Colt is more better.

[MT Gianni]

If you are making holes in paper either will serve you. A modern S&W, Ruger or Colt 6" 357 will probably be more accurate than a 2" taurus. If you are carrying a gun so you can say "Back off, I have a gun" either will serve you well. For hunting deer size game I would prefer the 45 from a gun I could accurately shoot into a basket ball at any range I might encounter them at.

[USSR]

I have killed deer with both the .357 Magnum and the .45 Colt. No comparison, the .357 Magnum works, but the .45 Colt does so with authority.

Don

[Texantothecore]

Nothing beats a big hole.

[Ubet]

There are fans for both of the calibers. With a little work you can find a quality revolver for either round. Both can get the job done, if the shooter does there part.

[357Mag]

Silverback -

Howdy !

Well... you asked.....

I vote for use of the .357Mag. Not so much the 158gr loads, but rather the proven 125JHP ("J"-word ) loads, such as from Remington & Federal.

The reliability of various cartridge's stopping power has been tracked over the years.
Until advent of the better .40 S & W loads and wider-scale carry use of semi-autos, the Rem 125grJHP .357Mag load reigned supreme as the #1 most reliable
" stopper " of human assailants. Even though carry use of .357Magnums has certainly seen a decline over the years, the effectiveness of the aforementioned
Magnum load has not changed. The comparatively light bullet @ higher handgun velocities produces a sizeable " temporary wound cavity ", and terminal effects sometimes referred to as " shock-down power ".

After much study, and letters to the likes of Jeff Cooper, Chuck Taylor, Martin Fackler et al; I adopted 425ft lbs of muzzle energy... as a good threshold value for determining which cartridges/ handguns will bias stopping power towards the most effective corner of the envelope.

Even if only performed as a drill, take a look @ factory ammunition specs for cartridges such as .38 Super, .357Sig, .357Mag, .45 Colt, .45ACP.

And, you'll likely note the existence of enhanced-power loads such as 9mm +P, .38Spl +P; and .45ACP +P.
There's a reason why mature cartridges like these, have in modern times been offered in a +P format . There's been a clamor for MORE energy.... in-order to provide more-reliable stopping power. There is no " .45Colt +P " offered in a .45 Colt case; in the classic sense.

Reloading to provide self defense loads:
- A post just on this topic, would run-on for pages & pages.
- Some have presented arguments against such practices..... citing either potential human error issues; or one's having to answer pointed questions during litigation.
- I can say that @ every handgun/self-defense course I've attended, use of factory ammo was strongly advised. This includes courses I attended where Clint Smith
was the instructor. Going w/ your own ( .45LC ) loads would be at least a partial admission that factory loads offered are viewed as marginal.

Carry -
Good as it is, carrying a gun that can you can shoot that 125gr JHP .357Mag well with.... is problematic.
You loose a lot of energy to muzzle blast if you go w/ a 2" snub.

Revolvers are wider than 'autos most always; and can be plenty "heavy". The carry and shooting of a 4" -barreled .357Mag presents challenges all their own. This is not for everybody ! Even a shooter absolutely convinced the 'Mag is the way-to-go... may not have really great revolver "fit" choices that can address personal issues like physical size & stature. It's easy to see why .40 S & W 'semi-autos are sellin' like hot cakes.

I myself don't pick the gun based on the most minimal clothing get-up I'm likely to wear all year. I picked my carry gun/cartridge combo based on what I believed would provide me the best chances for survival in critical SD situations(s). I then dress to accommodate THAT carry gun, and practice w/ that gun' to include
occasional shots taken w/ the actual carry loads.


With regards,
357Mag

[waksupi]

Taurus offers the advantage of coming pre-broke, so you don't have the anxiety of a long waiting period before you can send it in to be fixed. Heck, it's only for self defense, no big deal if it doesn't work! [smilie=1:

[enfieldphile]

Guys,

I do understand that Taurus centerfire wheelguns are problematic, but their 1911 is really good!

I managed to snag the very first Taurus 1911 to arrive in Lubbock Texas. it's still perfect! The only boolits to have gone through it are cast, never a burp or hiccup.

But, I digress, the OP's question was .357 or .45 Colt. The .45 Colt of course! Here's some .45 Colt eye candy for ya..

Colt Anaconda
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/ultramag44/Anaconda%2045%20Colt/Anacondae_zpsa48f9eed.jpg

S&W 625 Mountain Gun
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/ultramag44/MountaingunR.jpg


Taurus offers the advantage of coming pre-broke, so you don't have the anxiety of a long waiting period before you can send it in to be fixed. Heck, it's only for self defense, no big deal if it doesn't work! [smilie=1:

[DrCaveman]

Well i wont take sides here but i can say that getting a 200 gr slug flying over 1000 fps from a 357 aint too hard

2400 or lil gun will get you there, with a 4" barrel.

But, same speed with a 240 gr boolit, probably better.

[Snyd]

45 colt can have KO power than a .357
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Not in a Taurus 450! Ruger Only loads are just that.

But, I for one would like to get my hands on a Taurus 450 45 Colt someday. But, I've got other irons in the fire.

[Piedmont]

I too would avoid a Taurus. I'd rather have a 2" or 4" S&W .38 special than the Taurus, not because the cartridge is so great, but because I would know the gun would work. Also agree with DougGuy that if you are fond of .45s, an autoloader is a heckuva lot easier to carry and offers at least as much performance.

I've been carrying different guns lately on my walks and I won't even carry a K frame because I have autoloaders that are smaller and lighter, and I'm not talking about pocket guns. It isn't worth the trouble, especially when all of the autoloaders offer more capacity too.

[6bg6ga]

I see there are a lot of internet experts here again. There is nothing wrong with a Taurus hand gun for the most part. I also bad mouthed the Taurus until I shot one. Some gunsmiths will put them down because they aren't the brand they carry in stock. In simple terms they seem to work fine. The Taurus semi's may be the reason the brand gets a bad rap.99486


Attached is a picture of a nice shooting well made 44 mag. Note the dual lock up on the cylinder.

[6bg6ga]

Taurus offers the advantage of coming pre-broke, so you don't have the anxiety of a long waiting period before you can send it in to be fixed. Heck, it's only for self defense, no big deal if it doesn't work! [smilie=1:

That's not an accurate representation at all. Have you owned one? Even shot one? I doubt it. As for quality I can tell you tails of my experience with Colt and S&W. So, to be perfectly fair they all have their problems. While I'm not a fan of Taurus I can recognize ANY gun that works well.

Now, I'm not going to jump on the soap box when it comes to their semi-automatics. I have seen a fair share of them refuse to work and or break at the range. The Taurus wheel gun from all that I have seen seem to work flawlessly. I've seen a number of new shooters at the range that have purchased the cheaper Taurus brand and they seem to be satisfied with their purchase. If their other guns are as good as their 44mag there is enough quality for anyone. Its just a name question after that. Colt and S&W seem to flow off the lips easier than Taurus does.

[6bg6ga]

99487

I personally don't like a short barrel but in all it doesn't look bad to me.

[Char-Gar]

Get a good 1911 pistol in 45 ACP, learn it's quirks and never look back.

[williamwaco]

get a good 1911 pistol in 45 acp, learn it's quirks and never look back.

ditto

[Geraldo]

I had a S&W M25 in .45acp, cut to 2.5" and K frame butt. Cool factor was high, but the weight for six rounds of .45 was not. I'm in the camp that says if you want .45, get a 1911 or a Glock 30 if you like plastic.

[waksupi]

That's not an accurate representation at all. Have you owned one? Even shot one? I doubt it. As for quality I can tell you tails of my experience with Colt and S&W. So, to be perfectly fair they all have their problems. While I'm not a fan of Taurus I can recognize ANY gun that works well.



I have had more Taurus brought to me needing fixed, than all other hand guns put together. I won't work on them.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have a Taurus Titanium 2" .45 Colt, bought used. I found the accuracy to be much more than expected. I expect 3" groups at 25 yards, 8" groups at 50. I did get some leading on the cylinder face that made me think I had a problem with cylinder rotation. A good cleaning fixed that. It is the size of an L-frame S&W with a short barrel. I find the muzzle-blast from the .357 Mag very unpleasant when compared to the .45 Colt or .45 ACP. I carry the Taurus a lot around the farm. I replaced the Ribber grips with a Hogue rubber grip. The Ribber squirmed in my hand, making my hold inconsistent. I like the .45 Colt for the CCI snake shot. I like the one I have, but if you want a small big bore revolver the Charter .44 Special is better. I have both but my wife carries the Charter for its size. Taurus has a spotty record, Charter has a better record.

[DougGuy]

In addition to my earlier comments in post #3, I will add this...

I got a dui once back when I still drank, and like a ******* didn't unload the 1911 in the front seat and put it on the dash. The officer said the shirt must have fell off the seat back when I stopped and concealed the weapon. Yeah right. Long story short, when it got to court, the DA made a FIELD DAY out of the fact that the Commander was in condition one carry, cocked and locked with one in the pipe. Oh man that judge was looking at me!!! My God if looks could drill a hole in a fella, I woulda looked like SWISS CHEESE! Yep, poor county in North Carolina, real backwoods kinda stuff, podunk USA and then some! I never got the Commander back.

Now, I had to modify my every day carry protocol somewhat, but this is the 21st century and there are new technologies and new products made every day. Enter the striker fired semi-automatic pistol. Affordable, lightweight poly frame, double-action style trigger pull for every shot, no hammer to cock to cause a backwoods judge to have nightmares over, no external safety because none is needed, it is the best of both worlds, revolver vs. automatic. It has every advantage the revolver has except one, if it doesn't fire there is no cylinder to rotate, it has every advantage a slab sided semi automatic has, size, width, concealable, fast reloads.

After a lifelong practice of carrying a 1911 style auto, I chose the Kahr CW-45 over the old 1911 and never looked back. These are lightweight, just 26oz. fully loaded with 230gr +P hollowpoints, they withstand +P pressures, this one is surprisingly accurate for it's size, it's portable, concealable, less levers sticking out of it, they are simple, effective, and made 100% in the USA. With a price tag half that of a decent used Commander, how can you go wrong?

With +P performance, very low profile, smaller than an Officer's ACP, trigger that's like butter, this was my choice:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/20130605_1316491_zps53617b85.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/20130605_1316491_zps53617b85.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01574_zps7da4cc83.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01574_zps7da4cc83.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01575_zps82e501c0.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01575_zps82e501c0.jpg.html)

[Love Life]

Holes kill stuff. Pick a caliber, shoot it a bunch, and call it good.

[dragon813gt]

Holes kill stuff. Pick a caliber, shoot it a bunch, and call it good.

Lies!

[NavyVet1959]

For some reason, some people like the trash the Taurus firearms. I own 2 Taurus revolvers in .357mag and a few of their semi-autos. I have never had a problem with any of them. I pull the trigger and they go "bang". For a defensive firearm that is to be used at close range, what else do you need? The ONLY time I had a problem with one of them was when I first started reloading and I did not seat the primer flush with the case, so the cylinder would not rotate, but this would have also been a problem if I had put that round in the S&W that I own. It was an obvious error on my part, so I can't fault the firearm.

One advantage of the .357mag revolvers though is that some manufacturers make 7-shot or 8-shot versions. Of course, there are classic 6-shot and even some 5-shot revolvers, but having a 7 or 8 shot revolver kind of adds a new twist to that old Dirty Harry line. :)

[Love Life]

True story. People can pontificate grandly or they can go shoot. There is no replacement or substitution for trigger time.

[dragon813gt]

Internets > Real Life
Everyone knows this ;)

And I agree. Pick one and go shoot it. Become proficient and you are golden.

[DeanWinchester]

The best one is the one YOU can shoot straight. After all, a .22 short that hits, beats a .500 S&W magnum that misses.

Having said that, its undeniable logic; a .357 might expand but the .45 colt will never shrink. LOL!

[357mags]

Another easy one! 357mag is the King Manstopper! Load it in a 4"-6"bbl revolver with 158gr HP's and sleep tight!

[Rick Hodges]

true story. People can pontificate grandly or they can go shoot. There is no replacement or substitution for trigger time.
amen!!!!

[6bg6ga]

I have had more Taurus brought to me needing fixed, than all other hand guns put together. I won't work on them.



Would you care to elaborate? Are you supposed to be a gunsmith? Do you have any records, kept track of which models are breaking and the defect? Its real easy to slam a brand without actual proof. Maybe I'm to draw the conclusion that your part of the country has a higher percentage of defective Taurus guns. They seem to be reliable here where I live.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't like the idea that the 45colt has to make that cylinder gap jump in the judge.
_

You are worried about nothing. My BFR is very accurate with 45 colt cartridges, and that jump is almost 2 inches long!

My Handi rifle was in 357 maximum and the new owner is no doubt enjoying the excellent accuracy via 38 specials.

[Piedmont]

Would you care to elaborate? Are you supposed to be a gunsmith? Do you have any records, kept track of which models are breaking and the defect? Its real easy to slam a brand without actual proof. Maybe I'm to draw the conclusion that your part of the country has a higher percentage of defective Taurus guns. They seem to be reliable here where I live.

I know your response was not directed at me but I have a friend who worked in a large firearms store in a major metropolitan area for years. One day we were sitting around talking and out of blue he said, "Don't ever buy a Taurus. I can't tell you how many I have had to send back." Now we weren't even talking about Taurus or sending guns back.

The longer you persist along this line the worse you look. BTW, most of us would consider Waksupi at least a gunsmith.

[Love Life]

I thought Waksupi only sold out of stock loob grooves?

[6bg6ga]

I know your response was not directed at me but I have a friend who worked in a large firearms store in a major metropolitan area for years. One day we were sitting around talking and out of blue he said, "Don't ever buy a Taurus. I can't tell you how many I have had to send back." Now we weren't even talking about Taurus or sending guns back.

The longer you persist along this line the worse you look. BTW, most of us would consider Waksupi at least a gunsmith.

Well, I have no idea if he is a gunsmith or not as I do not know him. As for the taurus... I have my opinion based on the 44 mag that is in my posession right now that I do not own. If the quality of the rest of their line is close to this one then someone has been drinking too much moonshine. As a poster I should be allowed my opinion and I really am not worried about what a chosen few think.

No matter what gun there will always be those that will tell you they will never purchase that brand and that brand is junk. I have heard that said about both S&W and Colt. I've personally seen Colts (Pythons) that you couldn't pay me enough to shoot. So, each brand can have their good and bad models and their share of quality control problems.

[silverback13]

Ok I must not have had email response to thread so I have been missing out on the discussion.

I own ruger security six's in 2 3/4,4 and 6 inch. super nice round and weapons. I choose them as the grip fit me better than the sp101's and they were lighter than the gp 100's.

I have fired tons of 158 and 125 grain in all of them. they are very accurate and I have every confidence in them all to do the job well. I shoot them very well with no issue. they are super comfortable to shoot.

I have a ruger redhawk in 45 colt. this the softest shooter I have. less perceived blast and report. I haven't loaded with ruger only loads yet.

I can't seem to get away from throwing big lead down range. I like the recoil pulse of the 45 colt better than the snap of the 357. I also can't seem to get away from the idea that a 255 grain bullet will impart more damage than the 357 round. I know that the 357 imparts energy and causes a big temporary wound cavity but the 255 grain should cause a larger permanent would cavity.

so it got me to thinking that a nice small carry package with 45 colt would be effective.

I have never loaded for a 2 inch colt round and wanted to get some info of real life experience.


In my 30 years of shooting, I have owned 1911's glock 9, 45 acp and the 10mm, Makarov, ruger vaquero, and the list goes on.

I got away form semi auto's a while back as I just enjoy the revolver more and with my accuracy level I don't feel out gunned.

That being said I am interested in real life info of 45 colt penetration performance.

I think the colt just lost its appeal as the semi autos took over and it was regulated to the cowboy action crowd.

I know I have rambled on here but wanted to touch base with all comments.

so anyone have any real world with the 45 colt in a small barrel? any real world comparisons between the two rounds?

I like the 45 colt as it can produce the same results as the 44 with less pressures.

the Taurus is the only game in town for a small carry 45 colt DA revolver.

If the redhawk was lighter I wouldn't be having this conversation.

[MtGun44]

+1 on Char-Gar. The flatness of a Colt Ltwt Commander will
surprise you with the ease of carry compared to any cylinder gun.

Bill

[taco650]

My concealed carry gun is a Glock 27 (40SW) because its flat, short and shoots good. Ugly to look at but just works. If your only choice is .357 or .45 Colt, go .357 'cuz they come in smaller packages than .45Colt. When wearing a gun concealed all day, size matters, aka smaller & flatter are easier to hide. Most important of all is hitting the target so choose accordingly. If .357 is too much, go .38 Special, 9mm or .380 ACP. The 9mms are coming in very small packages these days.

On the other hand, for hunting purposes the .45Colt is superior to the .357 IMO.

[nekshot]

I started hangun shooting in the early 70's with a ruger security 6 in 357. Went to the ruger bh's in 44 mag and loved them all. To reinclude my wife back into handgun shooting we went back to 357's. I am staying with them but if I was starting out I would go 45 for the bigger hole!

[LAH]

I carried a 4" M-29 S&W for 8 years. I used the Lyman 429421 & 20 grains of 2400. Nothing I ran into in my home state stood a chance. After those 8 years & thousands of rounds later I decided I didn't need that much power. I went to a S&W M-60 & then to a 442 in 38 Special. Big change. But after much carry with this one I tired of trying to carry extra ammo so I went to the S&W M&P Compact 9 with an extra mag. I don't feel undergunned.

If you can carry a 45 Colt revolver then go for it. If you need something smaller there's nothing wrong with a 357. Above all go with the advice of a few others here......shoot the thing & shoot it till it's part of you.

[waksupi]

Would you care to elaborate? Are you supposed to be a gunsmith? Do you have any records, kept track of which models are breaking and the defect? Its real easy to slam a brand without actual proof. Maybe I'm to draw the conclusion that your part of the country has a higher percentage of defective Taurus guns. They seem to be reliable here where I live.

Well, I've been building guns for 35 years, been a competition shooter for around 40 years. I was senior gunsmith for Serengeti Rifles, worked for Montana Rifle Co, and now for North Star West. Yes, I guess I'm a gunsmith. Since I don't work on them, I don't keep records of them, or much of anything else, come to think of it.

[35 Whelen]

energy transfer is a mathematical fantasy.

45 colt is more better.

yep!!

[35 Whelen]

First, isn't this Wheelguns, Pistols and Handcannons". Semi-autos, get thee behind me!...us!

Since no one can agree on the two calibers, there's only one logical solution; 21 ounces of fingernail dislodging, wrist spraining, carpel tunnel inducing hell:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/IMG_0399_zps3d293d79.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/IMG_0399_zps3d293d79.jpg.html)

35W

[6bg6ga]

Since this thread is about 357 vers 45 I'll have to answer 45. More lead bigger hole more damage?

[6bg6ga]

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/357_self-defense.htm

Read this

[6bg6ga]

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/357_self-defense.htm

Read this and this

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html


There is something to said about control ability. A brief look tells me the 357 will penetrate ballistic gel further than the 45 will. Down side as pointed out is the recoil and control ability of the gun. In a self defense situation my money is on the 45. If I were in the wild and got surprised by wild boar or something the 357 would take down the attacker. In town I wouldn't want to have to worry about where the 357 is going to be going after it penetrated an attacker. Both are viable in terms of putting someone down.

[StrawHat]

I see a couple of comments to the effect of the "proven" 125 grain 357 load. I have yet to see where it was proven. But in the same vein, the 45 long Colt load is also a proven load.

Having used both for hunting, I prefer the larger of the two, the 45 long Colt. The end results were the same but they came faster with the larger boolit.

[seaboltm]

I see a couple of comments to the effect of the "proven" 125 grain 357 load. I have yet to see where it was proven. But in the same vein, the 45 long Colt load is also a proven load.

Having used both for hunting, I prefer the larger of the two, the 45 long Colt. The end results were the same but they came faster with the larger boolit.

Agreed. Doctor Gary Roberts does terminal effects research professionally:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

I would say that in MOST cases a 45 Colt will be roughly equivalent to a 45 ACP. If you insist on factory ammo for self defense start here:

https://www.hornady.com/store/45-Colt-185-GR-FTX-Critical-Defense/

For hunting, anything with a 2 inch barrel would be ruled out in my opinion. All things being equal, and the fact that the original poster mentioned he reloads, then I would say 45 Colt with a cast boolit hand loaded to above factory will beat a 357 Magnum for hunting, although I have hunted with the 357 and it works OK, depending on the bullet used. About 20 years ago I loaded some Hornady 125 grain XTP's and ran them through a Marlin 1894 (in those days I believed velocity was king). Shot a hog with it and the results were not good. The bullet was moving so fast that the JHP just came apart as soon as it hit the hog, penetrating maybe a handful of inches. A Ruger 44 BH was used to end that hunt.

[Geraldo]

I see a couple of comments to the effect of the "proven" 125 grain 357 load. I have yet to see where it was proven. But in the same vein, the 45 long Colt load is also a proven load.


Back when .38 and .357 ruled LE and people and agencies started keeping actual data, the .357 125gr JHP was used in a lot of shootings with good results. Hence it was considered proven. The .45 Colt was not issued or carried much, so data was/is limited. That's not saying it won't work, just that statisticians couldn't "prove" much based on the limited sample.

[Petrol & Powder]

Silverback -

Howdy !

Well... you asked.....

I vote for use of the .357Mag. Not so much the 158gr loads, but rather the proven 125JHP ("J"-word ) loads, such as from Remington & Federal.

The reliability of various cartridge's stopping power has been tracked over the years.
Until advent of the better .40 S & W loads and wider-scale carry use of semi-autos, the Rem 125grJHP .357Mag load reigned supreme as the #1 most reliable
" stopper " of human assailants. Even though carry use of .357Magnums has certainly seen a decline over the years, the effectiveness of the aforementioned
Magnum load has not changed. The comparatively light bullet @ higher handgun velocities produces a sizeable " temporary wound cavity ", and terminal effects sometimes referred to as " shock-down power ".

After much study, and letters to the likes of Jeff Cooper, Chuck Taylor, Martin Fackler et al; I adopted 425ft lbs of muzzle energy... as a good threshold value for determining which cartridges/ handguns will bias stopping power towards the most effective corner of the envelope.

Even if only performed as a drill, take a look @ factory ammunition specs for cartridges such as .38 Super, .357Sig, .357Mag, .45 Colt, .45ACP.

And, you'll likely note the existence of enhanced-power loads such as 9mm +P, .38Spl +P; and .45ACP +P.
There's a reason why mature cartridges like these, have in modern times been offered in a +P format . There's been a clamor for MORE energy.... in-order to provide more-reliable stopping power. There is no " .45Colt +P " offered in a .45 Colt case; in the classic sense.

Reloading to provide self defense loads:
- A post just on this topic, would run-on for pages & pages.
- Some have presented arguments against such practices..... citing either potential human error issues; or one's having to answer pointed questions during litigation.
- I can say that @ every handgun/self-defense course I've attended, use of factory ammo was strongly advised. This includes courses I attended where Clint Smith
was the instructor. Going w/ your own ( .45LC ) loads would be at least a partial admission that factory loads offered are viewed as marginal.

Carry -
Good as it is, carrying a gun that can you can shoot that 125gr JHP .357Mag well with.... is problematic.
You loose a lot of energy to muzzle blast if you go w/ a 2" snub.

Revolvers are wider than 'autos most always; and can be plenty "heavy". The carry and shooting of a 4" -barreled .357Mag presents challenges all their own. This is not for everybody ! Even a shooter absolutely convinced the 'Mag is the way-to-go... may not have really great revolver "fit" choices that can address personal issues like physical size & stature. It's easy to see why .40 S & W 'semi-autos are sellin' like hot cakes.

I myself don't pick the gun based on the most minimal clothing get-up I'm likely to wear all year. I picked my carry gun/cartridge combo based on what I believed would provide me the best chances for survival in critical SD situations(s). I then dress to accommodate THAT carry gun, and practice w/ that gun' to include
occasional shots taken w/ the actual carry loads.


With regards,
357Mag

Well I was going to type some of this, but 357Mag did most of it for me. /\ This is fairly sound reasoning in my opinion.
The track record from actual shootings involving 125gr, HP .357magnums is very good.
I see a LOT of people that start out saying to themselves that they can carry a full size 1911 or 4" N-frame everywhere/everyday and a very small number actually do that.......BUT by far most people (maybe 95% ?) switch to a smaller gun that they will actually carry daily. There's nothing wrong with that, it's better to have a small gun with you than a huge gun back home.
I would try to keep it real when making a decision about a carry gun.

[Mik]

Agreed. Doctor Gary Roberts does terminal effects research professionally:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/



Excellent link. That guy is right on the money. When it comes to pistols and gun fights, the only thing that matters is adequate penetration and projectile design and construction. The whole idea of bigger bullet equals more damage makes sense only if you are relying on bleeding to end a fight. But fights don't end because of bleeding, it takes too long. Gun fights end for two reasons, the damage caused by the bullet makes the body physically unable to operate or, far more common, the psychological effect of being shot causes the opponent to quit.

To physically stop a person fast enough to protect yourself the bullet must reach a vital structure (heart or CNS). That is why penetration is so important. Once it gets there, the size of the hole, ie a 9mm expanded to .55 inch or a .45 expanded to .65, really doesn't, make a difference.

The psychological stop is more a function of the assailants state of mind but more hits are more convincing. Again, caliber really doesn't matter.

I would get the 357 and enjoy the greater availability of components, accessories, and high quality SD ammunition. Both of them will do what is needed in a SD situation.

[Petrol & Powder]

Taken from Doug Guy post.........................

"Now, i had to modify my every day carry protocol somewhat, but this is the 21st century and there are new technologies and new products made every day. Enter the striker fired semi-automatic pistol. Affordable, lightweight poly frame, double-action style trigger pull for every shot, no hammer to cock to cause a backwoods judge to have nightmares over, no external safety because none is needed, it is the best of both worlds, revolver vs. Automatic. It has every advantage the revolver has except one, if it doesn't fire there is no cylinder to rotate, it has every advantage a slab sided semi automatic has, size, width, concealable, fast reloads.

After a lifelong practice of carrying a 1911 style auto, i chose the kahr cw-45 over the old 1911 and never looked back. These are lightweight, just 26oz. Fully loaded with 230gr +p hollowpoints, they withstand +p pressures, this one is surprisingly accurate for it's size, it's portable, concealable, less levers sticking out of it, they are simple, effective, and made 100% in the usa. With a price tag half that of a decent used commander, how can you go wrong?

With +p performance, very low profile, smaller than an officer's acp, trigger that's like butter,............"



/\ also very sound logic /\

[kevmc]

Might reread your copy of "Sixguns, by EK".
He had something to say about .38 vs .357 vs .44spl, and he had lots of experience with each.....

[Silver Jack Hammer]

silverback13, You know you are going to buy both eventually, you are just wondering which one you are going to buy first. I've seen the .357 fail in SD regularly decades ago, but the new ammo of today has solved the problems of the past. Recently we had a shooting with a .357 125 gr HP captured on surveillance systems. One shot into the thorax and the bad guy dropped. Doc Roberts was sitting with a bunch of us in a bar after giving his presentation at a conference, he started out with the comment that the .357 should have never been used in law enforcement. Granted the .357 had a horrible muzzle flash and recoil with SD ammo and lack of penetration made it much less conducive to stress shooting compared to the .45 or .40 but the .357 was used because it was a comfortable package to carry. The .45 was touted as superior but for a long time we lacked the actual data to compare it to the .357. Now we have more data of actual shootings with the .45 because good carry .45's are available. We have failures of the 45 to stop a bad guy too. The .357 ammo has improved -Significantly. Take a basic pistol course, pay your range fees and practice with different guns. I'm looking forward to hearing what you decide.

[Groo]

Groo here
The OP ask about the 357 V 45 Colt.
Both rounds have a good rep, one from the Army [cav] and the other from cops.
The question is ,what are you willing to carry?
45's are larger and a bigger frame is needed, 357's are smaller and can be had in small frames.
Both will work ,just differently.
Shoot both, and get whatever you are the most confident in.

[Suo Gan]

The brass is the limiting factor with the old Colt round. The 44 mag has much better brass dimensions. The best carry gun of all time is a 1902. The frame will eventually crack with much use though.

[StrawHat]

...Agreed. Doctor Gary Roberts does terminal effects research professionally:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

I would say that in MOST cases a 45 Colt will be roughly equivalent to a 45 ACP. If you insist on factory ammo for self defense start here:

https://www.hornady.com/store/45-Colt-185-GR-FTX-Critical-Defense/...

Thank you, I was not aware of those articles. I was hoping the "proof" was not the flawed results popularized by Marshall and Sandow.

[725]

I think anybody playing catch with either will loose. Carry what you shoot best. shot placement, shot placement, shot placement ..........

[jonp]

I have killed deer with both the .357 Magnum and the .45 Colt. No comparison, the .357 Magnum works, but the .45 Colt does so with authority.

Don

^^^Truth. Done both and the 45Colt was better at it. Big slow lead makes a big hole = win

[jonp]

Taken from Doug Guy post.........................

"Now, i had to modify my every day carry protocol somewhat, but this is the 21st century and there are new technologies and new products made every day. Enter the striker fired semi-automatic pistol. Affordable, lightweight poly frame, double-action style trigger pull for every shot, no hammer to cock to cause a backwoods judge to have nightmares over, no external safety because none is needed, it is the best of both worlds, revolver vs. Automatic. It has every advantage the revolver has except one, if it doesn't fire there is no cylinder to rotate, it has every advantage a slab sided semi automatic has, size, width, concealable, fast reloads.

After a lifelong practice of carrying a 1911 style auto, i chose the kahr cw-45 over the old 1911 and never looked back. These are lightweight, just 26oz. Fully loaded with 230gr +p hollowpoints, they withstand +p pressures, this one is surprisingly accurate for it's size, it's portable, concealable, less levers sticking out of it, they are simple, effective, and made 100% in the usa. With a price tag half that of a decent used commander, how can you go wrong?

With +p performance, very low profile, smaller than an officer's acp, trigger that's like butter,............"



/\ also very sound logic /\

My daily carry +1

[silverback13]

hmm!!!! the email notification feature hasn't worked... Odd. glad everyone has been posting reposnses.

I have been shooting for a few years and have shot just about anything. I enjoy the less noise, low blast and less recoil of the 45 colt. I never thought of it as a SD weapon as I never looked or remembered hearing about a small carry package.

Over the years I have owned and shot extensively 45 acp, 9mm , 7.62 x 25 , 357 etc.

In the last several years I have turned exclusively to the wheel gun. In fact I one a few ruger security six's 357 2 3/4, 4 and 6 inch barrel version and the ruger redhawk 45 colt.

I like the 45 colt over the 44 as it can produce some of the same results with less pressure.

Now that I have stumbled across the Taurus 2 inch DA it has led me down this path.

A light 45colt Da. I am assuming that I would only be able to produce 600 to 700 (fps if lucky ).

I have been wandering what type of tissue damage or bone damage that could be done with a 45 colt round at that speed or even less.


It may be a viable option for carry instead of the security six 2 3/4 and it would weigh in at about 23 oz's loaded. sweet!

[6bg6ga]

Have both 357 magnum and 45LC here. If you read thru the two articles I put a link to it mentions something about the 357 passing thru an object and keeping on going. The last thing you want is a gun fight and needing to protect yourself. Having to use a 357 shooting a person and having the bullet continue on bothers me because of the possibility of causing damage to another person and or property. The larger caliber 45lc or 45acp for that matter move slower and make a bigger hole. Bigger hole means a lot of blood out that hole. Ever seen movies of someone being shot by a 45acp? It kinda picks them up and then sets them down a few feet back. It has a good shock effect as well as controlability and limited penetration. No sense in hitting an intruder and having the bullet go thru a wall and strike someone outside. To me mass is an important effect and that is in terms of damage and shock. Bigger bullet = bigger hole more shock.

[StrawHat]

Years ago, I shot a raccoon with a 45 ACP, or maybe it was the 45 long Colt, doesn't matter really. Anyway, the 'coon was asleep in a tree when I shot it. It was dead on impact but what impressed me was the fact it was NOT blown into the next county but slid out of the tree toward me.

Doubt hitting a human with the same loading would " ...pick him up ansd set him down ..."

Regradless, I prefer the larger bore.

[jonp]

6bg6ga: that was a MOVIE. Ever see an old western? Tons of people getting shot and no blood.

[35 Whelen]

Doubt hitting a human with the same loading would " ...pick him up ansd set him down ..."

Regradless, I prefer the larger bore.

Exactly. I remember years ago reading a story by the late John Wooters, former editor of Peterson's Hunting magazine. As he related, on a hunt in Africa he shot a leopard that was stretched out on a limb in a tree with a 45-70 that was loaded with a 405 gr. bullet. One would think a relatively light hit with such a heavy bullet would be knocked off the limb. He said in the story the leopard actually fell toward he and his guide.

35W

[161]

A .22 in your pocket is worth more than a .45 in the safe because it's to big to carry.

[DougGuy]

Gotta love Hollywood, where the good guy gets winged in the thigh or the arm with a boolit from a .45 caliber Colt SAA, ties a handkerchief around it, grabs the girl and rides off with her just before the credits roll....

In the ORIGINAL 1873 black powder loading of the vaunted and legendary cartridge, the 255gr hollow base round nose boolit @830f/s was one bad mammy jammy. Those were dead soft lead boolits, and according to the photos I have seen of these after recovery, their expansion in flesh was something along the order of a coca cola bottle cap. Talk about the ultimate self defense round for a handgun..

If I had to choose the boolit, THIS would be my choice. They don't load these in the .45 ACP so I have to settle for 230gr Hornady +P JHP loads, which by themselves are pretty nasty if you are on the receiving end. To that end I will let Hollywood be Hollywood, and pack my trusty ACP pistol with the heaviest, hottest hollowpoint I can find.

I shot a possum in a tree once with a 200gr "Flying Ashtray" out of a Colt Commander, yeah it slid down out of the tree like it had been bonked on the head with a stick. Only in the movies does a 9mm EXPLODE a Chevelle in a ball of fire 2 lanes wide..

[silverback13]

great articles!! I will need to go through them again and my time it limited. Again it does seem like the old timers used to tell me when I first got started shooting. bigger and slower is better. It has just taken me some 25 years to actually listen to them. Hmmm.... slow learner. I think a 255 grain soft lead would be a great SD round. so I guess we will see what the future holds. I am going to try this Taurus model 450 and see what kind of decent loads I can make. I can't wait for the group buy to finalize (mihec 545640). Until then I guess I will pick up a few cheaper molds to get things going. Sounds like much fun will be had in the future.

keep the comments and articles coming. this has proven to be very informative.

[NavyVet1959]

Ever seen movies of someone being shot by a 45acp? It kinda picks them up and then sets them down a few feet back. It has a good shock effect as well as controlability and limited penetration. No sense in hitting an intruder and having the bullet go thru a wall and strike someone outside. To me mass is an important effect and that is in terms of damage and shock. Bigger bullet = bigger hole more shock.

Don't trust what you see in the movies. First of all, they're shooting blanks so any reaction from the shots is just the result of the actors or stunt people. To see how much the impact will affect something, you can just use a calculation of the momentum. Momentum is conserved -- basic physics. They used to use a ballistic pendulum to calculate bullet speed and that will show you how much a mass will move when hit be a bullet of a certain weight and speed.

Here's one, but it's in metric units:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/balpen.html

Plugging in a 230 grain bullet (14.9 grams), 1000 fps (304.8 meters/sec), and an 180 lb (i.e. man size) target (81,646.56 grams), you get a velocity of the max + bullet afterward of 0.055614 meters/sec (2.1895 inches/sec) and it would swing above its initial height by 0.000157802 meters (0.0062127 inches).

Not really a "picks them up and then sets them down a few feet back" kind of thing.

[Piedmont]

I think he means real movies, not Hollywood movies. I gotta' see those. Do you have any links 6bg6ga?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Groo there, I just got back from the mountains and am sitting here looking at your post after mine that the OP asked about .357 vs. .45 Colt and my comments appeared to be on the .45 ACP. I made my comment because I have two (2) boxes of .45 Colt ammo on the shelf for SD, both are 225 gr. One Winchester Silvertip HP and one Federal C45LCA. I don't know if anyone makes .45 Long Colt 250 HP ammo, maybe it is out there, I am certainly unfamiliar with it so I was commenting on the .45 ACP in 230 gr assuming it is ballistically similar in SD loadings to the Long Colt. Most people carry HP for SD. Then if we get into the difference between the 250 gr .45 lead boolit this is a horse of a different color. I've unscientifically shot various rounds into water and measured the penetration in inches. Whereas Federal 230 gr HP .45 ACP at 932 fps penetrates 22" of water, the same as the Winchester Silvertip .230 HP the 454190 at 875 fps penetrates 68" of water. Cor Bon +P 185 gr HP broke up in 4 inches of water, a few fragments came to rest on the 9" line. Most of the modern HP ammo I have tested makes it about 22" in water.

After my weekend, I can say that for carry, it is a lot easier to sit for 40 hours with an alloy frame 1911 than it is to snowshoe for 2 days in the sleet with a backpack and an all steel Colt SAA.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

DougGuy, I just picture the scene you described in court with the DA throwing a fit for you carrying cocked and locked 1911. That's our court system run by lawyers -pronounced lairs.

I just watched a video of a police chief reholstering his Glock, a piece of his jacket caught in the trigger guard and he shot himself in the leg. Wouldn't have happened with a 1911 but in court who cares about reality. For movies I enjoy True Grit and Rooster Cogburn testifying about his shooting the Whorton family, Clem, Otis and CC. He's made to look like a fool on the stand but if Marshall Potter's widow were there, she'd slap that defense attorney.

[Lefty Red]

A .22 in your pocket is worth more than a .45 in the safe because it's to big to carry.

Amen! Vote for the .357mag or any caliber that you can are accurate with and willing to carry. :)

Lefty

[Art in Colorado]

6bg6ga
Hope you are joking about a 45 ACP or for that matter any caliber picking someone up and moving them several feet. If you are serious you have a bad case of Hollwooditis.

[rststeve]

Stay away from the turdass this will not serve you well.

[silverback13]

Stay away from the turdass this will not serve you well.


Not sure I get your drift.

[TheDoctor]

You can get 250 grain Gold Dot hollowpoints in 45 Colt. Depending on the box, they might be called Deep Curl. Standard 45 velocity, good penetration, good expansion, low recoil. You can also buy the bullets and roll your own.

[dougader]

They are both good calibers, but if I'm expecting double duty of SD and hunting, then I'm going with the 45 colt. A 250 gold dot at 1000 fps is fine for SD, and a 265 WFN at the same velocity will take deer with authority.

I assume people here roll their own. I mean, if you cast bullets and don't reload, well then...

[6bg6ga]

6bg6ga
Hope you are joking about a 45 ACP or for that matter any caliber picking someone up and moving them several feet. If you are serious you have a bad case of Hollwooditis.

You guys are so much fun:kidding:

[lar45]

The brass is the limiting factor with the old Colt round. The 44 mag has much better brass dimensions. The best carry gun of all time is a 1902. The frame will eventually crack with much use though.

There is nothing wrong with modern 45 Colt brass. It is every bit as strong as 44 mag brass.
You can load it up to 40-50k and shoot it in a 454 and the brass is just fine.

I think that the Taurus 450 looks like a fun little gun. Shoot piles of ammo through it and see how reliable it is.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

.....

[opos]

I love internet brand snobbery...folks love Glocks...I won't even pick up a Glock...for me (and only for me) feels like a cordless drill..whatever fits and works is what I'll enjoy shooting...I have a Taurus 92AFS that is the most reliable semi auto I've ever owned...no alterations, no "upgrades"...just a shiny "pimp gun" right out of the box with several thousand rounds of whatever I have to shoot...I'm a big CZ fan and have heard they are absolutely no good...really?....Got Rugers and the Smith folks say they are no good...Whatever.. I love the 45 Colt but were I to carry I'd probably opt for a 125 grain 357 mag...or the Gold Dot 38 special +P in 135 grain for snubs..My "night stand gun" is a GP100 4" stainless with 38 special +P Golden Saber's in it...ran my own tests on lots of target configurations and that was my personal choice.

[NavyVet1959]

Here is a movie about "knock down power" myth ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I&sns=em

It's one thing to do the calculations and intellectually know that being hit with a bullet should not knock you massively back, it's quite another to actually see it proven with someone actually taking a shot and barely flinching from the impact. Thanks for the video...

[Groo]

Groo there, I just got back from the mountains and am sitting here looking at your post after mine that the OP asked about .357 vs. .45 Colt and my comments appeared to be on the .45 ACP. I made my comment because I have two (2) boxes of .45 Colt ammo on the shelf for SD, both are 225 gr. One Winchester Silvertip HP and one Federal C45LCA. I don't know if anyone makes .45 Long Colt 250 HP ammo, maybe it is out there, I am certainly unfamiliar with it so I was commenting on the .45 ACP in 230 gr assuming it is ballistically similar in SD loadings to the Long Colt. Most people carry HP for SD. Then if we get into the difference between the 250 gr .45 lead boolit this is a horse of a different color. I've unscientifically shot various rounds into water and measured the penetration in inches. Whereas Federal 230 gr HP .45 ACP at 932 fps penetrates 22" of water, the same as the Winchester Silvertip .230 HP the 454190 at 875 fps penetrates 68" of water. Cor Bon +P 185 gr HP broke up in 4 inches of water, a few fragments came to rest on the 9" line. Most of the modern HP ammo I have tested makes it about 22" in water.

After my weekend, I can say that for carry, it is a lot easier to sit for 40 hours with an alloy frame 1911 than it is to snowshoe for 2 days in the sleet with a backpack and an all steel Colt SAA.

Groo here
No disrespect intended or implied.
Your statements of the 45acp are correct.
The original BP loadings were [ modern cases 35gr] 40gr powder and a 255gr soft lead boolet.
Speeds from a 7 1/2 in colt run in the 950 fps to 990fps.
The 45 acp mirrors the 45 "short" made to fit both the colt and the S&W revolvers , 230gr bullet 28 to 30gr BP with speeds in the
750/800fps range.[ sound good ?]
All have done and will do the job well. [Big slow boolet]
The 357 is a youngin and can be had in a smaller lighter package.
I tend to not consider handloads as factory can be had by most, and will admit that a tailored hand load can do much.
As to the 1911 , my fave is a commander light weight in 45acp,or all steel in 10mm......

[Char-Gar]

I carried a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 44 Mag for about 6 months as my ccw ... It was too heavy and bulky for ME! I went back to my 3" SP 101 ...

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/Inyourface.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/ShawnTVT/media/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/Inyourface.jpg.html)

What ever happened to "keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire"?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

ready! ;)

[Piedmont]

I was ready! ;)

Good answer! It always amuses me watching youtube gun review videos where the maker makes sure everyone knows how empty the gun is. I don't care. I don't figure I will get hit through the computer screen even if he shoots the camera. And if he shoots himself, that really won't affect my life either.

[6bg6ga]

There is nothing wrong with modern 45 Colt brass. It is every bit as strong as 44 mag brass.
You can load it up to 40-50k and shoot it in a 454 and the brass is just fine.

I think that the Taurus 450 looks like a fun little gun. Shoot piles of ammo through it and see how reliable it is.

Yes, what is it about 45LC brass not lasting anyway? I've seen just as much life out of LC brass as I have out of 45acp brass.

As for the Taurus 450.... there are those on this thread that probably haven't even handled a Taurus product but still jump on the band wagon to knock the product.
As I mentioned in the area that I live they seem to sell and hold up well. I for one would like to hear which particular models seem to have problems. The dealers I talked to mention that they haven't had problems with the wheel guns but the semi automatica are another story.

[6bg6ga]

Not trying to start anything but I really object to looking at a picture of a loaded gun pointed at me. Sends chills down my back.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

flash! ;)

[rhead]

In addition to my earlier comments in post #3, I will add this...

I got a dui once back when I still drank, and like a ******* didn't unload the 1911 in the front seat and put it on the dash. The officer said the shirt must have fell off the seat back when I stopped and concealed the weapon. Yeah right. Long story short, when it got to court, the DA made a FIELD DAY out of the fact that the Commander was in condition one carry, cocked and locked with one in the pipe. Oh man that judge was looking at me!!! My God if looks could drill a hole in a fella, I woulda looked like SWISS CHEESE! Yep, poor county in North Carolina, real backwoods kinda stuff, podunk USA and then some! I never got the Commander back.

Now, I had to modify my every day carry protocol somewhat, but this is the 21st century and there are new technologies and new products made every day. Enter the striker fired semi-automatic pistol. Affordable, lightweight poly frame, double-action style trigger pull for every shot, no hammer to cock to cause a backwoods judge to have nightmares over, no external safety because none is needed, it is the best of both worlds, revolver vs. automatic. It has every advantage the revolver has except one, if it doesn't fire there is no cylinder to rotate, it has every advantage a slab sided semi automatic has, size, width, concealable, fast reloads.

After a lifelong practice of carrying a 1911 style auto, I chose the Kahr CW-45 over the old 1911 and never looked back. These are lightweight, just 26oz. fully loaded with 230gr +P hollowpoints, they withstand +P pressures, this one is surprisingly accurate for it's size, it's portable, concealable, less levers sticking out of it, they are simple, effective, and made 100% in the USA. With a price tag half that of a decent used Commander, how can you go wrong?

With +P performance, very low profile, smaller than an Officer's ACP, trigger that's like butter, this was my choice:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/20130605_1316491_zps53617b85.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/20130605_1316491_zps53617b85.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01574_zps7da4cc83.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01574_zps7da4cc83.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01575_zps82e501c0.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/DSC01575_zps82e501c0.jpg.html)


I got stopped a few months back for a rolling stop at an intersection. The boys and i had been at the range so the trunk of the car was full. also a pistol on the seat in condition one.
The officer impounded the lot to check if any were stolen. He told me to come by the station after forty eight hours and pick them up.

I got a real grilling while I was waiting on the paperwork.

Lots of questions. Do you have the dies and moulds to reload for .40 S&W? Am I interested in selling either the mod 19-4 or the 19-5?
How about the Savage 24 in .357/20? Same for the pre safety Rossi in .357. or the Ruger security six. Would i please consider the Winchester 94 trapper in 30-30.

Apparently they had spent the weekend at the range playing. Several hundred rounds of ammo was missing but i did gain a few thousand pieces of brass.

Ar. act 746 seems to be working in South Arkansas.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

rhead, I feel like writing to that law enforcement agency-impounded your guns to "check to see if they were stolen?" Bull(*&$. Guns can be checked for stolen on the spot, it takes just a few moments for a return from the State and National computer system on a firearm. What was the grilling? Are you not a US Citizen? You are not a convicted felon I assume. You have a right to possess a firearm. If your guns were "impounded" the agency exceeded their authority and violated your rights. In this liberal state I live in there are all kinds of laws with clauses protecting citizens especially when transporting to and from a range. Maybe we ought to move this to a PM.

[pmer]

255 grain 45 Colt pushed with 8.3/Unique had complete pass through on a White tale deer. Broke her spine and kept going at about 20 some paces. 4 5/8" RBH, my first hand gun doe.

You might want to consider a 625 Smith & Wesson. Go to the Star Line Web site and read between the lines on their 45 Auto Rim brass. Plus you got super fast loading of moon clipped 45 acp, +p and super if you're careful.

[Bullshop]

rhead, I feel like writing to that law enforcement agency-impounded your guns to "check to see if they were stolen?" Bull(*&$. Guns can be checked for stolen on the spot, it takes just a few moments for a return from the State and National computer system on a firearm. What was the grilling? Are you not a US Citizen? You are not a convicted felon I assume. You have a right to possess a firearm. If your guns were "impounded" the agency exceeded their authority and violated your rights. In this liberal state I live in there are all kinds of laws with clauses protecting citizens especially when transporting to and from a range. Maybe we ought to move this to a PM.
Maybe the idea from LE was that if there was anything off color with the guns they would hopefully never here from him again so would get to keep them.

[rhead]

rhead, I feel like writing to that law enforcement agency-impounded your guns to "check to see if they were stolen?" Bull(*&$. Guns can be checked for stolen on the spot, it takes just a few moments for a return from the State and National computer system on a firearm. What was the grilling? Are you not a US Citizen? You are not a convicted felon I assume. You have a right to possess a firearm. If your guns were "impounded" the agency exceeded their authority and violated your rights. In this liberal state I live in there are all kinds of laws with clauses protecting citizens especially when transporting to and from a range. Maybe we ought to move this to a PM.
The "Grilling" was sarcasm. They were quire friendly. Checking one only takes a few minutes. Like I said. the trunk of my car was full. the inventory sheet was two pages long. In the non free states this would have made the national news.

[Moonie]

The "Grilling" was sarcasm. They were quire friendly. Checking one only takes a few minutes. Like I said. the trunk of my car was full. the inventory sheet was two pages long. In the non free states this would have made the national news.

So how did he get a search warrant for your trunk in order to find them and confiscate them?

[rhead]

So how did he get a search warrant for your trunk in order to find them and confiscate them?

When there is one laying an the seat beside you there is not much point in denying its existence. Its presence would be grounds for the warrant. why not cooperate no laws were being broken. as to impounding them it lets them check them out at their leisure instead of calling them all in at once and having HLS showing up to get a turn with the "terrorist arsenal". The grilling was more a case of "Please sell me this one." I have coffee with most of them off and on. Since act 746 went into effect Arkansas is a virtual open carry state without calling it open carry. It was more amusing than anything else.

[dubber123]

Yes, what is it about 45LC brass not lasting anyway? I've seen just as much life out of LC brass as I have out of 45acp brass.

As for the Taurus 450.... there are those on this thread that probably haven't even handled a Taurus product but still jump on the band wagon to knock the product.
As I mentioned in the area that I live they seem to sell and hold up well. I for one would like to hear which particular models seem to have problems. The dealers I talked to mention that they haven't had problems with the wheel guns but the semi automatica are another story.

Waksupi is certainly not the only gunsmith to have a low opinion of the brand. My brother is a gunsmith, and I helped him out a lot early on. It is a very small operation, in a very small area, which would make it reasonable to me to think we should only see a small percentage of any particular problem brand. That has not been the case. In the last 2 years, going only from memory, we have had:

A Model 85 Taurus snub raffled by our club that wouldn't fire, the lock work was so sloppy it would bind up tight before the trigger could be pulled all the way through. Stoning the internals got it working, at least until normal wear takes it too far out of spec, when we expect it will once again fail.

A Model 65 .357 4" that would also bind up in D/A mode every few cylinders and require you to "start over" by opening the cylinder and closing. This is a friends gun, he never had us attempt to fix it, so I am unsure what it's problem is.

A Model 605? 2" DAO .357. This one had a recess accidentally machined around the firing pin hole that would allow a primer to set back into it preventing rotation. 1 round of .357 would lock it up tight, .38's were OK. It was returned to the factory and fixed, then traded. This was a friends gun, and it was refused on trade in by 2 shops before one took it at a substantial loss.

A 8 shot vent rib stainless .357 that would not fire in D/A mode with factory Remington or Winchester ammunition.

A Judge that would not fire in D/A with Remington .45 Colt ammunition. It was unfortunately owned by the same young man who owned the above 8 shot .357. He bought both at the same time to use at the falling plates shoot I ran. He had to shoot single action with both. He lost his job and sent both down the road, presumably unrepaired.

An older blued .357 was worked on last year, it would lock up some times while cocking it single action. The lockwork was very sloppy, and would occasionally bind. Stoning got it working, but I doubt for long. The owner sold a Ruger Blackhawk to buy it for his wife as she preferred the D/A frame. Oops.

3- .22 D/A revolvers have been through to cure the VERY heavy trigger pulls. If any attempt beyond stoning the internals, (I.E reducing mainspring weight), they would not fire reliably, leaving you with an approximately 8-9 pound trigger pull. They did function other than this.

A Judge last week got a new front sight fitted, it shot about 14" high at 10 yards with factory .45 Colt ammo. It functioned fine otherwise.

I think I am forgetting a few, but this is just off the top of my head. In the same time period, only 2 Taurus autos have been in, both 1911's to replace safeties that fell off. They functioned fine afterwards. In mine and my brother experience, Taurus revolvers are more likely to give issues than their autos. Almost all of the problems with the revolvers have been from parts being manufactured too loosely in an apparent attempt to completely eliminate any fitting. When you get too many loose parts, they are going to bind. If parts are too tight, they can be fitted. These are so loose, other than polishing and hoping they slide by each other, we can't do much. It's pretty hard to add metal to internal lockwork parts.

I realize the faithful will refuse to believe any of what I have related, and that is ok by me. I won't be competing with them to buy any products produced by that company, they are welcome to them.

[NavyVet1959]

I realize the faithful will refuse to believe any of what I have related, and that is ok by me. I won't be competing with them to buy any products produced by that company, they are welcome to them.

Of course, it *could* be that the "faithful" as you call them are just people who have never had a problem with any of the Taurus handguns that they own and as such have a problem believing the claims by some that like to badmouth Taurus.

[swathdiver]

Elmer Keith was posed this same question and in his book, Sixguns, said he'd choose the .45 Long Colt every time.

A 250 grain Keith Bullet with 40 grains of black powder runs about 900 feet per second and has taken all North American game and many thousands of bad guys. Get a 4-3/4" or 5-1/2" Peacemaker and call it a day.

[Lonegun1894]

I like and carry both, or I should say either one, but please, whatever you do, don't waste your money on a Taurus. I HAD a 605, and it shot great til I got to the 10K round mark, and this was with the vast majority of shots fired being .38s, and a few .357s after that to make sure I always knew where it would hit. Taurus refused to approve me shipping it to them on my dime, TWICE. So I sold it with full disclosure and put the funds toward a Ruger SP101, to keep my old Security Six company. I have put 85K rounds through the SS, and bought it used so don't know how many rounds were fired through it previously, and am up to 11K on the SP101, and both are smoother than the day I got them, and lock up and shoot as well as the day I bought them. I also have a 4" Ruger RH in .45 Colt, and it shoots just as well, but is obviously a bit larger and heavier than the .357s.

[StrawHat]

...Elmer Keith was posed this same question and in his book, Sixguns, said he'd choose the .45 Long Colt every time...

I believe his comment was directed toward factory loads. Something along the lines of if forced to use only factory loads he would be content with the 45 long Colt and the Remington factory blackpowder loads. This would have been before the 44 Magnum hit the scene.

It's been a few decades since I read that book, I'll have to bring it to the top of my "to do" list.

Didn't Taffin unload Keiths revolvers after he passed and found that load in the 45 long Colt revolver?

[dubber123]

Of course, it *could* be that the "faithful" as you call them are just people who have never had a problem with any of the Taurus handguns that they own and as such have a problem believing the claims by some that like to badmouth Taurus.

Just as there are "some" on here with experience with only 1, or just a few who believe that most if not all must work as well as theirs. I have noticed many who tout the brand have pretty new looking guns, with undoubtedly low round counts. I believe if they actually shot much, or used one hard, the legions of faithful would be greatly diminished. I had a Taurus 85 many years ago. 3,500 rounds in one summer transformed it into a loose, rattling bag-O-bolts. I didn't include that one in my list, because to be fair, thats probably more use than a $200 revolver was meant for, and in fact it still worked when I traded it off. I am more than fair when relating my personal experience with this brand.

[Moonie]

When there is one laying an the seat beside you there is not much point in denying its existence. Its presence would be grounds for the warrant. why not cooperate no laws were being broken. as to impounding them it lets them check them out at their leisure instead of calling them all in at once and having HLS showing up to get a turn with the "terrorist arsenal". The grilling was more a case of "Please sell me this one." I have coffee with most of them off and on. Since act 746 went into effect Arkansas is a virtual open carry state without calling it open carry. It was more amusing than anything else.

So since when is "no laws were broken" grounds for a search warrant? Here where I live a handgun sitting on a seat in plain view is most definitely not grounds for anything as it is perfectly legal. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I do not give up my rights for the sake of security. Seem to remember one of the founding fathers saying that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

[Love Life]

Since this thread has drifted and degraded, I'll jump back in with my 3 cents. If I had to buy a budget revolver, then it would be a Charter Arms all day everyday. I've had a Charter 38 special snubnose for years. My notebook says it has over 6,000 rds of 358477 over 5.0 gr of unique through it. Love that gun.

Holes kill stuff. Pick one, get good with it, and call it good.

[jmort]

Charter Arms Very under appreciated. Completely agree. Had a Bulldog .44 Special worth every penny. Should have kept it.

[Love Life]

I can whip that snubbie out of my coat or pants pocket, and put 5 holes in your pelvis/sternum/chest (I like to work up with the recoil) pretty daggone quick.

[jmort]

Just like Bernard Goetz stopping four misunderstood youth in the blink of an eye with his snub-nose. He made a point of saying "speed is everything" and he done did it right.

[357Mag]

All -

Howdy !

A little light reading.....

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm .... take a look @ all the various reference works

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler .... more reference studies listed here

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm .... " one-shot stop " effectiveness chart, w/ sources


With regards,
357Mag

[6bg6ga]

Just as there are "some" on here with experience with only 1, or just a few who believe that most if not all must work as well as theirs. I have noticed many who tout the brand have pretty new looking guns, with undoubtedly low round counts. I believe if they actually shot much, or used one hard, the legions of faithful would be greatly diminished. I had a Taurus 85 many years ago. 3,500 rounds in one summer transformed it into a loose, rattling bag-O-bolts. I didn't include that one in my list, because to be fair, thats probably more use than a $200 revolver was meant for, and in fact it still worked when I traded it off. I am more than fair when relating my personal experience with this brand.

So, you had a taurus many years ago and they are still junk? Does that about cover it? I give you this much and that is the older ones weren't very good. The newer ones seem and I will repeat seem to hold up better. Now, If your capable of providing fact to prove the newer ones are just as much junk as the older ones I certainly would love to read your evidence.

[waksupi]

I think you just hit full troll status. You don't own one, are shooting a borrowed gun. The guy probably loaned it to you because he don't care if you drop it out of a boat.

[dubber123]

So, you had a taurus many years ago and they are still junk? Does that about cover it? I give you this much and that is the older ones weren't very good. The newer ones seem and I will repeat seem to hold up better. Now, If your capable of providing fact to prove the newer ones are just as much junk as the older ones I certainly would love to read your evidence.

My friend, your reading/comprehension skills are a bit lacking. The one gun you reference I made of point of not putting on my list, as it did work/function, just didn't wear well. I plainly stated all those I listed were encountered in the last 2 years, how new would suit you? OK, maybe the ones made in the last 15 minutes are great, but the ones made in the last 2 years were nothing to get excited over. As I said, buy them all up, I won't stop you.

[silverback13]

well guys while I was doing the research I came across a deal that I couldn't pass up. Used but in super condition .

http://www.taurususa.com/product-detail ... umbseries=

I just went out to the range to test fire the model 450 and all I can say is where has this gun been hiding.

Off the shelf ammo:

magtech 200 gr 705 fps

hornady 255 cowboy 725 fps

Winchester silver tip HP 225 at 920 fps.




the magtech shot like a 22 lr.

the hornady a little more in the hand but nothing to speak off.

The Winchester not much more that the Hornady but you could tell it was moving faster.

All of them much softer that the 357 in any barrel length.

I didn't have a target and I wasn't looking for accuracy just felt recoil. After realizing this gun shoots like a podwer puff. I was able to hit grape fruit size targets at will from about 20 yards at will.

I am stoked.

I have been searching for this kind of soft shooting, big lead throwing, easy carrying weapon for a long time

I wish I could find another one. I am going to have to start scouring the web. I have finally found my carry gun. now to just build a stash of shells and start loading.

[dubber123]

Thats a good velocity range for a soft lead HP to work well, it might be worth a try.

[6bg6ga]

My friend, your reading/comprehension skills are a bit lacking. The one gun you reference I made of point of not putting on my list, as it did work/function, just didn't wear well. I plainly stated all those I listed were encountered in the last 2 years, how new would suit you? OK, maybe the ones made in the last 15 minutes are great, but the ones made in the last 2 years were nothing to get excited over. As I said, buy them all up, I won't stop you.

Maybe you can help me..your reference seems to be a Taurus 85 and to quote you " I had a Taurus 85 many years ago"

[6bg6ga]

[QUOTE=waksupi;2694999]I think you just hit full troll status. You don't own one, are shooting a borrowed gun. The guy probably defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."[7][8]

Response removed

[dubber123]

Maybe you can help me..your reference seems to be a Taurus 85 and to quote you " I had a Taurus 85 many years ago"

Sure, it's easy.. I listed 10 guns that had issues in the last 2 years. The one you seem stuck on, was not in that list, and I made a point of stating so. I said it was a rattletrap after 3,500 rounds, but still worked, and as such was NOT included in the list. I am sorry, 2 weeks ago was the most recent dealing with the brand, and that was just for a sight regulation issue, albeit a doozy of one. I can't do better than that for you.

That 85 was not the only Taurus I have owned, just the only one I mentioned. Lets just say the company has been very consistent for me.

[High Desert Hunter]

I have a great deal of respect for the 357 Magnum, and I shoot mine all the time, but I carry either a 1911 or a S&W Mt Gun in 45 Colt. I would take the 45 Colt in a fight every day and twice on Sunday, it will work on man or beast and put both out of commission in short order.