What is biggest 30-30 load for my 1961 Win mod 94?

[blackangus]

If I keep the oal ok, what bullet and what powder for the biggest ammo? I'd like to use my winchester 94 to deer hunt. Lyman manual indicates 170 gn cast rn with no gc.
Is this as big as I can go safely?
Looking at threads, I see both "rifle" and "pistol" powder mentioned for cast bullets.
What is correct, and what powder would be correct for your suggested boolits?
thanks

[BCRider]

Just how big ARE the deer in your area? :D The regular loads have proven to be OK for more than 100 years now. At one time this was THE deer gun back before we all got wound up over magnum this and that loads. Although I'm not sure what bullet they used in the cartridges back in the earlier years of the 20th century.

In any event with plain base lead you're going to be limited to speed at around 1500 to 1600. That's about max before you get into serious leading from the pressure and heat. If you want to get up to the 1900 to 2000 fps range I seen for 170gn jacketed bullets you'll need to go with gas check boolits or those new fangled J things.

Or are you considering holding the round to the 1500fps speed limit and up the weight? If you are then you're likely going to run into issues with the barrel twist rate not being optimum and the resulting poor grouping.

Personally my own plan for the same round and rifle is to play with paper patching using 150 to 160gn boolits. With the right setup the paper patching will let me achieve the full 2000 to 2200 fps maximum available from the load data for .30-30. And best of all I have a better chance of maintaining the accuracy potential by matching the bullet weight to the twist rate.

[Char-Gar]

If I keep the oal ok, what bullet and what powder for the biggest ammo? I'd like to use my winchester 94 to deer hunt. Lyman manual indicates 170 gn cast rn with no gc.
Is this as big as I can go safely?
Looking at threads, I see both "rifle" and "pistol" powder mentioned for cast bullets.
What is correct, and what powder would be correct for your suggested boolits?
thanks

You are going to have to sharpen that up a bit. I am left guessing about what "big ammo" is. Are you talking about bullet weight or bullet diameter. There are many types of powder that can be used for cast bullet loads in the 30-30 lever gun. What is your desired velocity and intended use for this "big ammo".

In general, your bullet weight will be limited by it's length. Your rifle won't feed rounds through the magazine and action after they reach a certain point in over all length. RCBS makes a 180 grain FNGC bullet for the 30-30 which in reality weights closer to 190 grains.

[blackangus]

Thank you for correcting me. I accept.
I previously shot a 30-06 with rem 180 core-lok, and never ventured into casting. So now, all is new, since I recently purchased a m 94 win 30-30.
I obviously posted incorrectly.
I do read about using unique and 2400 with cb on different posts. I also read using 4064 and 4320. Up till now, my reference was Lyman 49 and they did not suggest using "rifle" powders for cb. This is a rapid learning experience, and I am depending on you masters to not misquide me. If this site is for experts, then I appologize and will go elsewhere. Just let me know.
We have some big deer on our farm, and we put a lot of meat in the freezer. I'd like to use the 30-30 this year instead of the 06. So much to do before.
Big ammo would be 165 gn .309 hard cast which I purchased, as a starter. I felt an accurate shot with metal sites would be 50 yards for me. So the question should have been: I'll be shooting a commercial "hard cast" lubed pb 165 gn .309 boolit in my m94 win 30-30. Which powders would you use to give me 1400 fps?
Thank you, apology ahead for any ignorance.

[Lonegun1894]

I have gotten 1400fps (and higher and lower) with some commercial .309" cast 165s, but can't remember the brand now as this was years ago before I started casting my own. I used Unique, for the 1400fps and slower loads, tried some 2400, and also some 3031. All worked well to get me to the velicities I was trying to get and tested through my chronograph. Now here is the bad thing in my experiment. No matter what I did, I got quite a bit of leading, and lousy accuracy. Now, I measured quite a few of those bullets and they did measure at .309". I started casting, melted those down, and recast them and sized at .311", and now get good accuracy and no leading in my .30-30s (Marlin and Winchester). I'm not saying that to discourage you, but rather to say try it and see, and if it doesn't work, try some different sizes. In fact, next time you fire some rounds through your .30-30, measure the INSIDE of the case mouth and see how large diameter bullet you can fit inside the fired case, and use the largest cast bullet that you can fit in your throat. Have you slugged this rifle yet by any chance? What measurement did you get?

And this site definitely has some experts, and a bunch more of us trying to learn, so stick around. Sometimes the questions you get asked seem a bit picky, but this is one of those hobbies that a very slight difference, sometimes .001", can make the difference between success and accuracy and failure, leading, and buckshot patterns out of a rifle that gives you tiny groups with proper ammo. You will get used to the terms used and that will make life much easier for you both in asking questions and in understanding the answers. So keep asking anytime you don't understand something--cause we have all been there...

[retread]

I also have a Model 94 of the same vintage. It slugs out at .310. I size to .311 for that one. I also have one of the first Centennials in 30-30. It slugs out at 308.5. You really need to slug it before going any farther in your quest. Not a big deal to slug it. You can buy soft lead slugs or cast your own. For a one time shot you can drill a hole in some scrap oak, pour in melted soft lead. Use something between 3/8 to 1/2" thick and drill your holes all the way through, then punch them out after the harden. Use a 5/16 forshner bit or one similar to get a nice clean hole. Back up the bottom when pouring with any metal or other scrap that is laying around. Gently tap the plug down the mussel with a soft mallet, the push or tap farther with one section of a brass or aluminum cleaning rod, the add another section and repeat till the slug falls into the open chamber, remove and measure with a good micrometer (not slide calipers). Hope this helps.

[BCRider]

Looking at the two cast boolit options in my own Lyman 49th I see a fair number of "cross over" powders that are used in both bigger handgun calibers as well as lower power rifle loads.

Two powders that I've found work well for me in my low speed .38-55 shooting have been 4227 and 4198. I've read nothing but good things about 3031 as well. If you started out with any of these three I think you'd be starting well.

Looking at the starting loads in the Lyman 49th they are all a little higher than your desired 1400fps. But I'd start with the starting load and see if you get leading up or not. Then work down by a little for each to lower charge weights. Along the way check the accuracy of each load.

I know that the 4227 and 4198 both work well with charges a couple of grains lighter than the starting loads given. The powder still burns clean and fully. On the other hand with 5744 I was getting a lot of unburned powder left in the bore with charges that are even a hair under the starting loads given in the manual.

My goal of loading up for muzzle velocities that are a little under the manual is the same as yours. A desire to end up at around 1400 to 1500 and avoid leading up while still getting excellent accuracy.

[blackangus]

Thanks.
First thing, buy a good micrometer. Then clean barrel thoroughly, and slug.

[43PU]

Hey black angus where in ky are you from? I am from they ashland area

[Char-Gar]

With your parameters, bullets and so forth, a charge of 14 grains of 2400 would be a good place to start.

[Wayne Smith]

I will say one thing, you may be a beginner, but you are smart. Starting now you have all spring and summer to perfect this before you need it, unless you are using depredation permits. Then you may stick to the -06 for effectiveness until you get this worked out.

Yes, a micrometer and a barrel slug are a good start. You might also read the sticky on making a pound slug of the throat, but this is a Winnie and not a Marlin so that might not be necessary.

With the measurement of your groove and the boolits you have you can predict the amount of leading you will get simply because fit is king. .001 - .002 over groove and you won't have any given a useable lube. Smaller than that and you will. It really is that simple.

Velocity matters more than the powder used to achieve it. Any of the powders that will get you 1400-1800fps will do the job. Actually anything over about 1100 fps will kill anything you need to kill.

[starmac]

Larry Gibson has a very good thread on his tests with the leverrevolution powder, that just be might be exactly what you are looking for.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Agree if you are using commercial hard cast boolits sized .309 , you probably won't achieve very good accuracy. I have 3-pre 64 model 94's and they all like .311 slugs....if your going to hunt, you don't need "Hard" cast boolits. There are folks on this site that will send you a few slugs to test, if you ask . I use WW + a little tin , mixed . NOE is making a replica of the RD 165 boolit that works just fine for levers, Winnie & Marlin IMHO. I like RL-7, 3031, 4198 for powder...check out the "LASC" site here and the Stickies & Threads for a ton of info..Good Luck. Jim

[Crosbyman]

I just cast up some of the NOE RD165 boolits and will send some to anyone who wants to try them.

[helice]

Blackangus,
Congratualtions on picking up a 94 Winchester and for wanting to hunt with it this fall/winter. You will find out why so many of us admire that rifle so much.
Congratulations also on coming aboard here on the forum. Here you will be in the presence of masters, a group that does not include me. I have asked a hundred questions here and never been disappointed with the answers. I tried to do casting on my own in the early '90s and had frustration after frustration. I found this forum and found out why everything was frustrating. Most of these guys are gentle with their responses. Once in a while a response may feel a bit rough but go with it and you will get a marvelous education in a wonderful hobby/passion.
One caveat though: This passion becomes addicting. You have the right stuff to start, a 30-30 and an '06. Before too long you'll be pouring your own boolits and harvesting meat with that which you have made. What a feeling.

[smkummer]

I am loading lyman's 311291 Gas check bullet that comes out at 170 gains and I size to .311 to seat the gas check. It fits in my 1962 94 30-30. If it would be hard to close, I would size to .309, your gun may vary and I am using .311 as that bullet works at that size in my various 30-06 rifles as well. I am using a charge of unique to get 1500 FPS. That approximates the old 32-40 load. This gave me better accuracy than the one load of 2400 that I tried but again, I only tried one load of 2400. I have not doubt at 150 yards or less, this load would most likely shoot through a deer at most angles. I am sure shooting this cartridge combo for cheap and can afford to plink 200 yard steel targets with it as well.