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View Full Version : Looking for a multi use powder to cover 38 44 and brass 410 HD shot shells



Smithy
03-13-2014, 07:34 AM
Pardon me first if I've yet doubled up again on previous posts. (my age, health, and yes I've been known to do this before). After all of that and a load of black powder loading for 45 LC both rifle and pistol and the very same grind of black (FFF) to load brass 12 gauge hulls to shoot in SASS matches. Now I'm sure I won't get any complaints using FFF in the 45's as that caliber being somewhat on the fence between FFF and FF as powder granulation's to choose from for the 45, but 12 gauge? That came straight from the shell manufacturer, MagTech themselves. So with MagTech saying FFF is OK in 12 gauge brass hulls I then chose it to be the granulation of choice for the 45's as well. I had the same exact load for both rifle and pistol so it made loading and reloading a simple operation. I've seen way to many SASS shooters with pink labels on their revolver loads to keep rifle and pistol apart. I personally would have chosen a different caliber altogether rather than have the same caliber, yet different loading's for rifle and pistol. Well I no longer do SASS and my caliber's have changed somewhat, but I still am a fan on one powder, one primer (if size allows), as few different cases as possible between chamberings, you get the idea. If I had my ruther's I'd choose just one caliber and have that be good for all of my weapons, but it just didn't end up happening that way as I merged into a Post SASS situation and going to smokeless rather than black. Black is just fine for my mortars and gear that I bring out every fourth of July to make a bang or two, but my now limited to indoor range tends to frown upon black as it kind of stinks up the place and obscures targets and such. They don't know a good thing when they have it I guess?

So as I morphed after SASS I chose among other things 44 magnum as one, had to keep the 38 special since my wife's very first anniversary gift was an engraved, ported, signed, factory done up Lady Smith. (this was before S&W figured out that the model 60 could be maid to digest 357's). So the gun is a keeper as well as the chambering. No worries though as even though I have a number of 357's and 38's all I've ever shot or load is 38 special. No ammo mix ups that way and less ammo to load for. And sure I have been known to shoot some really blast-worthy 44 mag's, it's not necessarily my personal cup of tea. In fact when I was loading black powder 45's with a 200 grain hand cast Lee boolit and having just a ever so slight compression load, that was all that I ever needed. Many a post has indicated that such a load would be more than just fine if called upon for a home defense load and I agree. So I'm not looking for hairsplitting performance out of either the 38 or the 44. Just a moderate, easy to load cartridge that will let you know that you've shot something and it will still put a nice sized hole in anything that needs to be shot. Home defense, cans, nice circular holes in a piece of paper, you also get that idea.

Well, now enters in another chambering of 410. Not to pick up a used MEC 600 jr. and load away with a sack full of Winchester AA's, no I've grown accustomed to loading brass hulls and like the steps at the bench to do just that. Lee Loaders in 410 are hard to come by (don't know how well they'd work with brass hulls anyway), and expensive if you do find an old one out there. Between my son and I, we've made a good assortment of specific dies as well as commercial ones to do some nifty loading of these 2.5" MagTech hulls. Also doing a bit of math I've figured out what was needed to turn the pellets from a 18 cavity Lee #000 buck mold into swaged disks of around 67 grains to place four such disks into a Ballistic Products Stretch wad, over shot card it and using a different caliber factory crimp die, compress the top of the otherwise un-sized hull around the wad package and then a quick pass into a 7mm sizing die for the hull to just kiss the shoulder area to impart a slight roll crimp on the shell. The rounds look absolutely perfect, don't rattle, chamber easily, will work in a tube magazine, and drop into the cylinder of a Rossi Circuit Judge like nobody's business. I just do not have the whole powder thing figured out?

After all of that History (If I haven't lost you yet?), I'd like to get a smokeless powder that will take care of all three loadings to a doable level not necessarily excelling in any one caliber or the other. Oh by the way, the intended projectile for the pistol rounds will be a Lee 158 grain tumble lube boolit for the 38's and a Lee 240 grain tumble lube boolit for the 44 (which easily can be of 44 special power, just included in a magnum case). I was suggested to try Hodgdon's Lil Gun, but finding any information of that for the three is next to impossible. Also I've gotten the "Only Black Powder" warning for the brass 410 hulls or any of the MagTech brass regardless of gauge. I know that that is bum information since I've seen plenty of smokeless loads in the SASS bunch with MagTech brass.

What does everyone think of Trail Boss as a possible powder to do all three tasks? I've seen it used a lot in SASS as an easy to use powder that is smokeless and bulky so that double loads are next to impossible to have happen. This powder is great for Cowboy type loads in both 38 special and 44 special as well so It's only a matter of the extra 44 magnum case space and if or if not being able to use it in my 410 defensive loads? Anybody have any information of this powder or on its use in a 410 hull? I'd think that if they showed some lighter loads for the 45-70 or 444 Marlin that I'd be headed down the right powder direction with this powder. That way I'd have my one powder, easy and forgiving to load with, and smokeless so that I could resume shooting at the indoor range. As well as having a hole maker should any creepy thing in the night happens to need a hole in it sometime? What's you-all's thoughts? Smithy.

trapper9260
03-13-2014, 08:25 AM
I say 2400 because for how well it will work not only in 410 that is the only thing I use in when i load it, but I use it in others cals. also.

Teddy (punchie)
03-13-2014, 09:04 AM
Price and can you get it?? Then go from that.

Smithy
03-13-2014, 09:25 AM
Price and can you get it?? Then go from that.
That's exactly what lead me to the Hodgdon's Lil Gun in the first place. I had been trying to find 2400 at first, but still didn't like the heaviness of the 38 and 44 loads suggested with the 2400. I don't personally think that the Trail Boss powder has been out long enough for more loads to have been developed. First and foremost it provided some excellent SASS loads for 38, 44 special, 44-40 and of course the 45LC. So there were a bunch of happy cowboy shooters and the powder was selling like hot cakes. Also I found that the further one gets away from a local SASS range, the less likely one is to find a can of that powder on their dealer's shelf. In fact, I'm about an hour in any direction from any sort of cowboy range and I've yet to see any Trail Boss on anyone's shelf. I kind of wish they had a volumetric equivalent of black powder that was smokeless and did not produce any white clouds of smoke. I'd be able to load just like I've been use to for many a year and still shoot in my indoor range. The other bummer is that I basically live on the very same street (one block over) that our town's outdoor range is located. It's about 5 miles out of town on this same mentioned street, however they only have a select membership of 450 members. You have to personally know the Governor and the President and get their written permission to ask to be a member along with another member's head nod on membership and then you can be on a waiting list for membership. There are plenty of folk that have been on that list for over ten years, so I figured that it wouldn't even be worth trying to get on the waiting list at all. Their advertising is big on public safety and safety courses and such. You'd think that they would want to advertise just how many safe shooters they had in their ranks, not just the 450 uppity members that have no intention of moving on, or quitting, or retiring, or Heaven Forbid, "Passing away". No that 450 might as well be etched in stone since it likely will not change in the next two decades at least. I wonder just how many of the 450 are actually routinely using the range and for what length of time each visit? Smithy.

fecmech
03-13-2014, 02:29 PM
What's you-all's thoughts? Smithy.
You were doing great till you threw the .410 into the mix. Just about any fast to medium speed pistol or shotshell powder git's er done with the pistols. The .410 especially with plastic wads needs 296,H110, Lilgun, or Alliant .410 to be safely loaded. Those powders do not lend themselves to .38 spl's and lightly loaded magnum pistols. Methinks you need at least 2 different powders for this situation.

gray wolf
03-13-2014, 08:21 PM
Sometimes we have to bend a little, not all the over but just a little, Me thinks also for best results
(( two powders)) May be in order.

Smithy
03-13-2014, 09:52 PM
So the thought is that if I happen to find some 2400 I might be able to make this notion work, but I'll end up with a little heavier loads than originally planned in the 38? That's entirely doable. I was just thinking though as to what makes the old timer's powder of choice (black) work so well in just about anything, but it gets squirrely when we start talking smokeless? I must be missing something here. That was why I started considering the Trail Boss since seeing how it is used in the SASS circles made me think very much like how black powder is used. Maybe I'm reading too much into that? Smithy.

mr surveyor
03-14-2014, 12:34 AM
Unique?

AlaskanGuy
03-14-2014, 12:52 AM
I shoot 2400 in my 410... And have some loaded in mag tech shells waiting for the weather to break as we speak... I cast a bunch of .395 round balls and built a wad column, and then when the damm wind and such stops, I am gunna blast away....

AG

fecmech
03-14-2014, 10:43 AM
So the thought is that if I happen to find some 2400 I might be able to make this notion work, but I'll end up with a little heavier loads than originally planned in the 38?
Using 2400 in the .38 while it can be done, has some downsides. To get the 700-800 fps loads you need 8-9 grs of powder vs 2-3 grs with Bullseye. If you are using a double action .38 the unburned grains of 2400 will get under the extractor star and tie the gun up. Like many things, the devil is in the details.

Old School Big Bore
03-14-2014, 11:23 AM
If you can get the .410 to digest a quicker powder, something between green dot & herco. 2400 and 296 are great for magnum level revolver loads but not plinkers. Unique is where I would start...no development needed for the revos, data is everywhere. It all depends on getting the .410 to cooperate.

Mk42gunner
03-14-2014, 12:38 PM
Looking back almost 40 years, Herco doesn't do that well in the .410, at least it didn't for 3" plastic hulls.

I am going to say two powders will be easier, something in the range of Bullseye to Unique for the .38 and .44 plinking loads and somewhere between 2400 and Lilgun for the .410 (just a guess, I have never loaded the Magtech brass cases).

Robert